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  1. #201
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TUSooner's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    "The president has not and would not use drone strikes against Americans citizens on American soil," [press sec'y] said. "The legal authorities that exist to use lethal force are bound by, constrained by, the law and the Constitution. The issue here isn't the technology .... Whether it's a drone strike or a gun shot, the law and the Constitution apply in the same way."
    Like nobody EVER would have guessed that.

    "Hooray!" Paul said on Fox News, where he learned of the letter and its contents. "For 13 hours yesterday, we asked him that question. So there is a result and a victory. Under duress, and under public humiliation, the White House will respond and do the right thing."
    Translation: My crowing made the Sun come up!! (apologies to roosters everywhere)

    Bottom line: Masturbation fodder for all the usual suspects.
    Last edited by TUSooner; 3/7/2013 at 06:47 PM. Reason: clarification
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  2. #202
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    This speech was nothing more than posturing for Paul to run for his parties nomination for POTUS. Did anyone notice he spoke for an hour without getting a drink of water? I mean anyone other than Mark Rubio who felt that direct sting from Paul's bitch slap to his face. Of course Rubio came out swinging like a little girl. It is going to be so much fun watching these two out crazy each other. And so the show goes on.

  3. #203
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 MR2-Sooner86's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    I like how the Democrat majority was forced not just to occupy, but to visibly hold and defend, the moral low ground. I really do. They had to stand against a request to issue a very simple statement that comports with every reasonable view of rights and the constitution.

    When the time came to stand up for the people, or stand up for their party, the Democrat majority made their choice . . . and it wasn't to stand up for the people.

    This was good politics, and well-played.

    The ACLU backs Rand on this and many Republicans think they're an anti-American democrat group if that tells you anything. (Fun Fact: Rand's daddy got a higher score for defending civil liberties than Obama. You blew that one GOP.)

    I have no love for either party, but I do love specific events and moments, and this was one of those moments. I do wish he'd made it till morning, though.

    Democrats are now on record as rejecting this:


    Quote Originally Posted by jkjsooner View Post
    No, I am not. You can try to put words in my mouth over and over but that doesn't change what I am saying or what I have said.

    I am not in favor of using drone strikes on US soil. I am not in favor of using drone strikes on US soil. I am not in favor of using drone strikes on US soil. I am not in favor of using drone strikes on US soil.

    I can conceive of strange and dire circumstances where such a strike could be legal. I can conceive of strange and dire circumstances where such a strike could be legal. I can conceive of strange and dire circumstances where such a strike could be legal. I can conceive of strange and dire circumstances where such a strike could be legal.

    If you don't see how those two paragraphs are not contradictory then I can't help you. Here's a hint. Just because something might possibly be legal doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. Just because Holder believes it might be legal doesn't mean he's in favor of it. Got it?
    You've been saying it's alright to use drones here like we have overseas. So you support illegal and unconstitutional use of drones.

    Quote Originally Posted by jkjsooner View Post
    A declared war and a war are two different things. One is a term that has meaning within our constitution. The other is a general term.

    We have not had a formal declaration of war since WW2. That doesn't mean Korea, Vietnam, either war with Iraq, or the war on terror were not wars.

    If you want to argue about whether those wars were illegal then you're getting way off topic. The courts have not ruled that a formal declaration needs to be made before we take military action. With that in mind I stand by what I said earlier.
    You really have no idea what you're talking about.

    I can go have consensual sex with a 15 year old. I can consented to it, she consented to it, but it doesn't make it legal consensual sex.

    I know, you don't believe in the Constitution but that whole "declaration of war" was put in there for a reason.

    The war on terror is not a legal or constitutional war. You can call it a war but it doesn't make it a legal war.

    And to say it's off topic, it's not.

    11 Years Later, Senate Wakes Up to War on Terror’s ‘Battlefield America’

    When the state gets to decide what the war is, where it is, and how it's conducted that's a bad, bad thing.

    Remember, the government fired into a country we had no declaration of war on and assassinated an American citizen in cold blood, twice, without giving him due process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Both of those attacks were likely unconstitutional.
    jkjsoomer, read that. They did it once, they can do it again.

    So if the government ignore the constitution (no declaration of war on Yemen/due process ignored) what's to say they won't do it over here?

    Quote Originally Posted by jkjsooner View Post
    Exactly, there is no plan to ever use a drone to attack US citizens on US soil just as there is no plan to use a manned Air Force plane to do the same.
    Then why didn't the Obama administration just come out and say it?

    Quote Originally Posted by jkjsooner View Post
    I want to be clear about what you're saying. You want some type of charge and trial and then it's okay if we blow him away with a drone strike. Is that right?

    That seems a little odd since a drone strike is not a legitimate form of punishment on our books. If you go the route that this is a form of criminal punishment then I think you're opening a can of worms.

    I don't think this is a criminal punishment. It is operations in an ongoing war. Nobody in war is given due process. If you're the enemy and you don't surrender you get killed. If my grandpa joined the German army and was defending a german oil field, he's a fair target. I don't care if he put up a sign that could be read from 40,000 feet claiming he is a US citizen and that he wants due process. Sorry, it's a war, you're defending our vital enemy's interests, and we'll take you out.

    Now, if you say that the war on terror can't be compared with other wars then you're opening up a different question altogether. But our government has asserted that this war is comparable to other wars and if so my analogy about my grandpa holds.

    All of that said, there are plenty of debates about whether targeted killings in any war is against international law. But, again, that argument goes well beyond this one.
    You continue to show how clueless you are.

    Every person convicted of treason during WW2 was given a trial. None of them were executed.

    Also, you just helped support Paul's concerns with "battlefield" because according to the state, and you, everywhere is a battlefield in this "war."

    So...you just now, again, supported the assassination of Americans on American soil.

    TL;DR
    When it comes to the use of drones, statist will continue to state.
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  4. #204
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member picasso's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    This speech was nothing more than posturing for Paul to run for his parties nomination for POTUS. Did anyone notice he spoke for an hour without getting a drink of water? I mean anyone other than Mark Rubio who felt that direct sting from Paul's bitch slap to his face. Of course Rubio came out swinging like a little girl. It is going to be so much fun watching these two out crazy each other. And so the show goes on.
    Or he could really honestly be trying to get the message out about what a cluster**** of a policy this is.
    Since the mainstream media and the peace lovin' bull**** zealots won't say anything.

  5. #205
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TUSooner's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    In fairness to Rand Paul, whether or not he was needlessly grandstanding, he did it the right way. Anybody, left or right, who thinks the Senate is off the rails with bogus and anonymous filibusters-by-phone has to give him due credit for his straight-up approach.
    You tell me it's the institution. Well, you know, you'd better free your mind instead.
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  6. #206
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by MR2-Sooner86 View Post
    You've been saying it's alright to use drones here like we have overseas. So you support illegal and unconstitutional use of drones.
    I have never once said that. You aren't listening to what I have said. I can only guess that you are willfully ignoring my actual words so that you can keep believing I am saying what you think I am saying.

    Holder was asked if there was any circumstance where the use of a drone would be legal. He wasn't asked if there is a plan to do so nor if it was the right thing to do. Holder answered yes and clarified that answer by saying under a situation that is similar to 9/11. That means, if we had a plane flying towards a large building and the only option was to use a drone to take it out, it would be legal to do so.

    The only thing I've ever done is defend Holder's remark because I think what he said was correct. I'll also point out that such a use of a drone would be nothing "like we have overseas."

    It's not even close. I would never support assassinations on US soil using drones. You can re-read this thread if you like and you will not find one place where I have said that. In fact, I don't think you will find one post where anyone has said that.

    You're looking for a fight and you're manafacturing your own ideas about what others are saying so that you have someone to fight with. I'm tired of playing that game.



    And, by the way, the fact that Paul had to reword his question to emphasize a situation where we were not under attack just shows how ridiculous his original question was. Once he asked the question in a rational way he got the answer he wanted. I don't think that was by accident as I think this was all a grandstanding play to score political points.

  7. #207
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by MR2-Sooner86 View Post
    You really have no idea what you're talking about.

    I can go have consensual sex with a 15 year old. I can consented to it, she consented to it, but it doesn't make it legal consensual sex.
    Fine, we agree. I don't see how this has anything to do with whether Vietnam or the Iraq or whatever was a war. The analogy is ridiculous because minors are not deemed mature enough to give consent. In that sense you could argue that legal considerations or not, there was no consent.

    I know, you don't believe in the Constitution but that whole "declaration of war" was put in there for a reason.

    The war on terror is not a legal or constitutional war. You can call it a war but it doesn't make it a legal war.
    Just because I have different views/interpretations than you doesn't mean I don't believe in the Constitution. That is insulting and I would never say such a thing about you.

    We can debate whether these military actions are legal in another thread. If they're illegal then everything we've done is wrong - including killing Taliban and al-Queda leaders.

    The fact is that the courts have rules that these military actions are legal. And that brings me back to the main point. If you are fighting a military battle overseas and an American citizen has joined your enemy, he is not given the right of due process. One major reason is any action taken is not a criminal punishment but is instead part of a military battle. We kill lots of nice people who have never been charged or suspected of a crime while in battle simply because they happen to be part of the enemy.

    Let me ask you a question. Let's assume these are legal wars or military conflicts or whatever word you want to use. Let's say we're fighting in Vietnam. Would you really argue that some American citizen who has taken up arms with the Viet Cong should be given some sort of due process? Would we say, "We can't bomb you because you happen to have one American citizen among your ranks?"
    Last edited by jkjsooner; 3/8/2013 at 10:44 AM.

  8. #208
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopTroup View Post
    Rep. Doug Collins (R-GA) is upset Justice didn't show up today. He continues to want a true definition of Eminent Threat. The administrations Vale of Secrecy is going on and he's upset that they are asking him to just trust them.

    IMO if these guys had been around during the Bush Administration...I wonder if he would have asked questions like he's doing now that would have stopped us from going to War in Iraq? I mean....why should we have trusted the Bush Administration anymore than he's being required to trust the Obama Administration today?
    Because Bush was a patriot, Obama, not so much, in fact a Socialist/Commie...
    Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.

  9. #209
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Some due process > no due process. That's all I'm saying. As to getting to specifics, I'll leave that to people whose opinions matter.
    That is just sick! But it is some of the tactics and self-justification I would expect from a "Progressive"...
    Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.

  10. #210
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    And if you want to argue that these targeted killing can't be compared to the killing of soldiers in a conventional war then you have a point. I'm not a 100% sure I would disagree with that. But it we go with that premise, all the drone strikes (especially those outside of Afghanistan and and not just the ones against US citizens) are wrong.

    If you argue that these targeted killings are no different than any military battle, then I think the fact that your enemy is a US citizen becomes just as immaterial as it would be if he was part of the Viet Cong or North Vietnamese army. We didn't kill him because he committed a crime. We killed him because he is part of the enemy. Due process does not exist in military conflicts.

  11. #211
    Sooner All-World olevetonahill's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    A serious question for Both sides here.
    How dayum many ways can each of ya say you think the Other is full of ****?
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  12. #212
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KantoSooner's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    Again, how about the jihadist's 16 year old son? How about the 9:1 ratio of innocent lives lost for every suspected jihadist killed? I am suprised you would sign off on this.
    And we'll add in the comment about the Geneva Convention, but the above quote had more emotional content.

    One word reply: Bombing

    Every issue you bring up has been asked and answered in the case of aerial bombing both tactical and strategic. Is a ball bearing plant worth the lives of the people working inside it? And those living nearby? (let's set aside the mental image of the Jewish slave laborers in the Peenemunde (sp?) V2 rocket plants who according to accounts given by their German guards rose from their benches and began singing the Star Spangled Banner when the bombs started dropping on them.)
    Such considerations are what war is about. Was Awlaki worth the live of his minor son? I would argue, 'yes'. Is the loss of innocents to peg bad actors 'worth it'? I feel pretty confident that it is considered. Why do I feel confident? Because in every instance in the past when such calculations have been made by our government, such things have been considered. I find it difficult to logically posit that today's targetters or death panelists are somehow morally distinct from the previous generations of people placed in such positions.
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  13. #213
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by olevetonahill View Post
    A serious question for Both sides here.
    How dayum many ways can each of ya say you think the Other is full of ****?
    Every time I think I've counted 'em all, you come up with another.

  14. #214
    Sooner All-World olevetonahill's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Every time I think I've counted 'em all, you come up with another.
    You are just Oh so clever.
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  15. #215
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    To get off topic for a moment. Well, it's somewhat on-topic for those of us who believe what Holder was saying in his first response was in line with this scenario...

    Has it ever been determined if it would have be legal to shoot down the planes on 9/11? If there hasn't been a public debate about this there should be one as you can't have that debate while the planes are flying towards a building.

    Is it legal to kill a few innocent Americans who are almost certaintly heading for death anyway to save the lives of hundreds more on the ground?

    I'm pretty sure flight 93 would have been shot down.
    Last edited by jkjsooner; 3/8/2013 at 02:33 PM.

  16. #216
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by olevetonahill View Post
    You are just Oh so clever.
    Lighten up Francis? HeH.

  17. #217
    Sooner All-World olevetonahill's Avatar
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopTroup View Post
    Lighten up Francis? HeH.
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  18. #218
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    Re: DOJ/AG Say the US Can Kill Americans on US Soil via Drones


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