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  1. #21
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    If you truly believe that all that debt was incurred by Obama then you are clueless. He did not start at zero and the forward projected annual debts coming out of the Bush administration were over a trillion dollars. You might be able to make a decent argument that he is responsible for about $2.5 trillion of that debt. Of course that would include renewing the Bush tax cuts.
    No they weren't. These numbers are from the CBO budget projections from 2009 to 2019.

    2009 1.1 trillion
    2010 703 billion
    2011 498 billion
    2012 264 billion
    2013 257 billion
    2014 250 billion
    2015 234 billion
    2016 272 billion
    2017 234 billion
    2018 188 billion
    2019 235 billion

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...07-outlook.pdf

    2009 was supposed to be an exceptional and scary year with a deficit over a trillion dollars. Obama has taken something exceptional and scary and made it dull and routine.

  2. #22
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    But he's also reducing it not raising it? 2009 to 2012 seems to be headed downward. If the Economy gets better...won't it start reducing even farther? I mean...those are projections based on if things stay the same?

  3. #23
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    I'm reading that PDF file and it clearly states the projections are based "Under an assumption that all current laws and policies regarding Federal Spending and Taxation remain the same, CBO forcasts the following...."

  4. #24
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopTroup View Post
    I'm reading that PDF file and it clearly states the projections are based "Under an assumption that all current laws and policies regarding Federal Spending and Taxation remain the same, CBO forcasts the following...."
    And?

    Obama has already extended the Bush tax cuts and many people on both sides of the isle think it will be extended again. What exactly has changed?

    Of course there is one thing that the CBO didn't account for back then... Obamacare. It will send spending through the roof. Probably $250 billion a year once it is fully up and running.

  5. #25
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    I'm glad we have some separation of powers. That way the president can present a budget to congress.....congress can then pass multiple resolutions including appropriations bills.....the president can either sign those or veto them. The committees are the only ones that can author appropriations......the rest of congress can only vote yes or no.....the president can then either approve or veto the bill.

    I am just saying there is a lot of culpability among the two branches and two parties.

    I'd bet 90% of our population will not even bother to read the US Gubments annual audited financial statements provided by the GAO. Most don't even understand the budget process. ****...I took an entire class in grad school just on the federal budget and was still not crystal clear on how the sausage was made. Too many budget acts stacked on top of each other plus each congress has different rules.

    We need to stop using the term budget. That is very misleading to the mob. We have to budget 10 years out but we only appropriate 1 year out (2 years for some large capital projects). If my 10 year budget planned for 100 billion for USDA in year 7 then next year we change year 6 spending to 90 billion for the USDA I get credit for a 10 billion cut. But when that year rolls around we'll appropriate 120 billion. Cuts need to only be used to describe when a line item is has less spending then the previous FY.

    We also need to separate the capital budget versus the operating budget. Then you can actually understand trends and see how much is being capitalized vs expensed.

  6. #26
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner5030 View Post
    I'm glad we have some separation of powers. That way the president can present a budget to congress.....congress can then pass multiple resolutions including appropriations bills.....the president can either sign those or veto them. The committees are the only ones that can author appropriations......the rest of congress can only vote yes or no.....the president can then either approve or veto the bill.

    I am just saying there is a lot of culpability among the two branches and two parties.

    I'd bet 90% of our population will not even bother to read the US Gubments annual audited financial statements provided by the GAO. Most don't even understand the budget process. ****...I took an entire class in grad school just on the federal budget and was still not crystal clear on how the sausage was made. Too many budget acts stacked on top of each other plus each congress has different rules.

    We need to stop using the term budget. That is very misleading to the mob. We have to budget 10 years out but we only appropriate 1 year out (2 years for some large capital projects). If my 10 year budget planned for 100 billion for USDA in year 7 then next year we change year 6 spending to 90 billion for the USDA I get credit for a 10 billion cut. But when that year rolls around we'll appropriate 120 billion. Cuts need to only be used to describe when a line item is has less spending then the previous FY.

    We also need to separate the capital budget versus the operating budget. Then you can actually understand trends and see how much is being capitalized vs expensed.
    Your 90% estimate is WAY too high. It is probably more like 99% and that is exclusive of those in government, IMO.

    Your comments about the term budget are what caused me to reply, though. The concept of budget in the government is so bastardized that its very use is a lie to everyday Americans. If we had even remotely transparent spending, the masses would rise up within a few hours. Unfortunately, the free press died with the birth of Woodward and Bernstein.

  7. #27
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner5030 View Post
    I'm glad we have some separation of powers. That way the president can present a budget to congress.....congress can then pass multiple resolutions including appropriations bills.....the president can either sign those or veto them. The committees are the only ones that can author appropriations......the rest of congress can only vote yes or no.....the president can then either approve or veto the bill.

    I am just saying there is a lot of culpability among the two branches and two parties.

    I'd bet 90% of our population will not even bother to read the US Gubments annual audited financial statements provided by the GAO. Most don't even understand the budget process. ****...I took an entire class in grad school just on the federal budget and was still not crystal clear on how the sausage was made. Too many budget acts stacked on top of each other plus each congress has different rules.

    We need to stop using the term budget. That is very misleading to the mob. We have to budget 10 years out but we only appropriate 1 year out (2 years for some large capital projects). If my 10 year budget planned for 100 billion for USDA in year 7 then next year we change year 6 spending to 90 billion for the USDA I get credit for a 10 billion cut. But when that year rolls around we'll appropriate 120 billion. Cuts need to only be used to describe when a line item is has less spending then the previous FY.

    We also need to separate the capital budget versus the operating budget. Then you can actually understand trends and see how much is being capitalized vs expensed.
    Good point. This is the way things are supposed to work... However, it hasn't been working that way. The Democrats that control the Senate have not passed a budget resolution in over a 1000 days, breaking federal law in the process. The last one they passed was April 29th... Of 2009 for those keeping score.

    The Democrats tried to say the Budget Control Act passed last years was a budget, but the Senate Parliamentarian ruled against this a couple of weeks ago.

  8. #28
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Double post... Again.

  9. #29
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Double that figure is McCain had won.

    Remember McCain promised there would be more wars.

    Woulda come near that in Palin's salon expenses alone. That gal is high maintanence.


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  10. #30
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaii 5-0 View Post
    Double that figure is McCain had won.

    Remember McCain promised there would be more wars.

    Woulda come near that in Palin's salon expenses alone. That gal is high maintanence.


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  11. #31
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaii 5-0 View Post
    Double that figure is McCain had won.

    Remember McCain promised there would be more wars.

    Woulda come near that in Palin's salon expenses alone. That gal is high maintanence.


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    He did? I would like to see a quote on that. If you mean that he would committed to a surge in Afghanistan, Obama already did that.

  12. #32
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    He did? I would like to see a quote on that. If you mean that he would committed to a surge in Afghanistan, Obama already did that.

    It was a main reason I voted for Obama in the first place.

    On You Tube, back in 2008, someone put together a bunch of McCain townhall clips where he promised there would be 'more wars'. It wasn't said just once but several times.

    Just You Tube 'McCain more wars'


    Wars are pretty expensive ya know.

    Try to spin a cheap war.


    Actually, we got off pretty easy in Libya. No ground troops killed. Oh, but that was Obama.

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    Last edited by hawaii 5-0; 4/15/2012 at 02:18 AM.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaii 5-0 View Post
    It was a main reason I voted for Obama in the first place.

    On You Tube, back in 2008, someone put together a bunch of McCain townhall clips where he promised there would be 'more wars'. It wasn't said just once but several times.

    Just You Tube 'McCain more wars'


    Wars are pretty expensive ya know.

    Try to spin a cheap war.


    Actually, we got off pretty easy in Libya. No ground troops killed. Oh, but that was Obama.

    5-0
    Wow.. I watched two videos.. In both he said, "there are going to be other wars".... He didn't promise anything just stated it as fact. And it is a fact of course that has proven true. I guess McCain should have promised you unicorn horns and pixie dust to win your vote as Obama did. I would embed the video, but it isn't worth it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCISY40qns

    However, such an obvious statement from McCain does deserve the Captain Louis Renault award..

    Last edited by sappstuf; 4/15/2012 at 04:02 AM.

  14. #34
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    No they weren't. These numbers are from the CBO budget projections from 2009 to 2019.

    2009 1.1 trillion
    2010 703 billion
    2011 498 billion
    2012 264 billion
    2013 257 billion
    2014 250 billion
    2015 234 billion
    2016 272 billion
    2017 234 billion
    2018 188 billion
    2019 235 billion

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...07-outlook.pdf

    2009 was supposed to be an exceptional and scary year with a deficit over a trillion dollars. Obama has taken something exceptional and scary and made it dull and routine.
    Guess what? The CBO said they were dead wrong in this forecast. Looking at their assumptions I can see why. Their 10 year treasury rate forecast had me spitting milk out of my nose. The 2011 real GDP numbers....well that is some funny chit right there.

    BTW in 2001 they predicted a negative $2.5 trillion dollar debt by 2011. I guess their trusty eight ball was wrong then as well.

    Last edited by diverdog; 4/15/2012 at 07:48 AM.

  15. #35
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    Guess what? The CBO said they were dead wrong in this forecast. Looking at their assumptions I can see why. Their 10 year treasury rate forecast had me spitting milk out of my nose. The 2011 real GDP numbers....well that is some funny chit right there.

    BTW in 2001 they predicted a negative $2.5 trillion dollar debt by 2011. I guess their trusty eight ball was wrong then as well.
    Well if they were dead wrong, then they could not have predicted as you claimed...

    All this points to the fact that Obama's problem isn't the Bush recession.. Heck, that was over a couple of month into Obama's presidency. Obama's problem is the Obama recovery from the recession.

    He said that he should be held responsible if he hadn't fixed the economy in 3 years... It is one of his few positions that I completely agree with.

  16. #36
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Oh, we can sustain current debt levels...at current interest rates...
    phil:

    I would assume that if interest rates go up inflation will follow and it may not hurt us as bad as we think. And for the record I think inflation is how the fed is going to get us out of this mess or we do what has happened since the beginning of time and default on our debt and start over. Every nation has done it and every currency has ultimately gone to zero.

  17. #37
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    phil:

    I would assume that if interest rates go up inflation will follow and it may not hurt us as bad as we think. And for the record I think inflation is how the fed is going to get us out of this mess or we do what has happened since the beginning of time and default on our debt and start over. Every nation has done it and every currency has ultimately gone to zero.
    Good point...

    It has so many implications it is hard to really get a good idea of what will happen...

    You crash the dollar and our exports will be cheap...but imports will be expensive...fuel cost (imported crude) will hit us hard...hurting the economy...which lowers revenue...

    But which will be the overriding factor...

    Your guess is at least as good as mine...

  18. #38
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    If you want a nice, graphic way of watching the debt, this is catchy. $138,000 per taxpayer. Every one of us could buy a house for our portion of the debt.

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

  19. #39
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Good point...

    It has so many implications it is hard to really get a good idea of what will happen...

    You crash the dollar and our exports will be cheap...but imports will be expensive...fuel cost (imported crude) will hit us hard...hurting the economy...which lowers revenue...

    But which will be the overriding factor...

    Your guess is at least as good as mine...
    And then there is the age old question: "Do deficits matter"?

    One bright spot is that our natural gas is getting so cheap it may over ride the cheap labor markets and start bringing manufacturing back to the US. We need to develop some incentives to help the process along.

  20. #40
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post

    Obama's problem is that he won the election way to early. It would have been better to have McCain win so the Republicans would have had a chance to wallow in the **** they created.

    I'm thinking of voting for Obama for the same reason.

    I think Obama has done a fairly good job handling most of the situation. My complaints are that he's wasted tons of money on stimulus ideas that were not at all sound, and he has no desire to push people off the Govt teat, despite a dire crisis.

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