Good Morning: Original "separation of church and state" dissenter arrives here

[Okla-homey]

Feb. 5, 1631: Roger Williams arrives in America

On this day, 376 years ago, Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island and an important American religious leader, arrives in Boston in the Massachusetts Bay Colony from England.


Feb. 5, 1631, Roger Williams first sets foot on American soil

Williams, a Puritan, worked as a teacher before serving briefly as a colorful pastor at Plymouth and then at Salem. Within a few years of his arrival, he alarmed the Puritan theocracy of Massachusetts by speaking out against the right of civil authorities to punish religious dissension and to expropriate Indian land simply because the Indians had been deemed "heathens" and thus not possesed of any property rights.

Williams' dissent is the first documented significant opposition to the enforcement of church law by the courts in what would someday become the United States. It should be noted that Williams did not have a problem with the notion of a "state religion," nor did he take issue with state funding of religion. He just couldn't abide religious law being the stuff of criminal proceedings. IOW, he did not approve of religion being stuffed down peoples' throats under penalty of criminal punishment.

In October 1635, the Puritan leadership of Massachusetts had had enough of Williams' badgering and his unconventional notion that the state shouldn't be involved in enforcing church law. Williams was "banished" from the Massachusetts Bay Colony by order of the General Court.


After his banishment from Massachusetts, Williams was forced to wander in the winter New England wilderness. Encountering friendly Narragansett Indians, they allowed him to shelter among them in what would become the Rhode Island colony

After leaving Massachusetts, Williams, assisted by his new Narragansett Indian friends, established a settlement at the junction of two rivers near Narragansett Bay, located in present-day Rhode Island.

Williams declared the settlement open to "all those seeking freedom of conscience and the removal of the church from civil matters," and many dissatisfied Puritans came. Taking the success of the venture as a sign from God, Williams named the community "Providence."


Williams monument in Providence. Founded by Williams, the smallest state also has the longest name. Rhode Island's official name is "The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations."

Among those who found a haven in the religious and political refuge of the Rhode Island Colony were Anne Hutchinson--like Williams, exiled from Massachusetts for religious reasons--and some of the first Jews to settle in North America, as well as the Quakers. In Providence, Roger Williams also founded the first Baptist church in America and edited the first dictionary of Indian languages.


I've always thought the Rhode Island state flag was elegantly simple and beautiful. The anchor has dual significance. Apart from its maritime connotation, it is also used because, at least since the 16th century, the anchor has been symbolic of the concept of hope.

So, from a hillbilly who has been a Baptist since nine months before he was born, here's to you "Mr First Baptist in the Western Hemisphere".


Roger Williams died in 1687 and is buried in Providence.

[sooneron]

Newport is a great town. That is all I have to say about the ocean state.

[usmc-sooner]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

[royalfan5]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

The problem with America is that it should have been a Lutheran Nation. Do you see the Swedes, Danes, Fins, and Norewegians have people run around all uppity.

[Frozen Sooner]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

That's interesting, because in official documents later they wrote that the United States is not a Christian nation.

[def_lazer_fc]

why do some people feel the need for the country they live in to be a christian one? are they that insecure in their faith? last time i checked, you could still go to church, still read the bible, still pray, and still pretty much worship however you like. just b/c you cant do it on state property, have organized prayer in school, and some guy in some small town doesn't want "one nation under god" in the pledge, does NOT mean you are being persecuted. move to a middle eastern country and praise jesus there. changing a christmas parade to a holiday parade would be the least of your concerns.

[TopDawg]

if you read papers written by some of the constitutions writers later, they say that America should strive to stay a Christian nation. People have however since twisted seperation of church and state into something it was never intended to do.

I'm not sure what papers you're referring to (not saying they don't exist), but saying "American should strive to be/stay a Christian nation" is A LOT different than saying "America's government should stive to be/stay a Christian government."

[OklahomaTuba]

That's interesting, because in official documents later they wrote that the United States is not a Christian nation.

And in documents written even later than that, it said that it is.

Of course, this is like saying this is not an english speaking nation.

[Frozen Sooner]

And in documents written even later than that, they wrote that it is.

Really? In which official documents do any of the framers specifically refer to the United States as a Christian nation? Official documents, mind you, not letters and personal documents.

[mdklatt]

And in documents written even later than that, they wrote that it is.

And the seperation of church and state interpretation of the Supreme Court came even later than that. Huh.

[OklahomaTuba]

Really? In which official documents do any of the framers specifically refer to the United States as a Christian nation? Official documents, mind you, not letters and personal documents.

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??

Constitution of the State of Massachusetts 1780, stated:

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence [an opportunity to form a compact]; ... and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, ... [establish this Constitution]. ¹

The Governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to his office, unless, at the time of his election ... he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion. ²

Chapter VI, Article I [All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and subscribe the following declaration, viz. "I, _______, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth." ³

Part 1, Article II It is the right, as well as the duty, of all men in society, publicly, and at states seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the Great Creator and Preserver of the Universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and seasons, most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience. 4

Part I, Article III And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law. 5

Again, while the government may not be Christian, the states and the people are.

Kind of like speaking english.

[SicEmBaylor]

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??

Now you've opened up an entirely different can of constitutional worms and I'm not sure you realize it.

[OklahomaTuba]

Now you've opened up an entirely different can of constitutional worms and I'm not sure you realize it.

[mdklatt]

Does a pre-amble of a founding states constitution work??

And why exactly are we beholden to political realities from more than 200 years ago?

[OklahomaTuba]

found this interesting. (sorry for the copy and paste)

Alabama 1901: We the people of the State of Alabama , invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.
Alaska 1956: We, the people of Alaska , grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911: We, the people of the State of Arizona , grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution…
Arkansas 1874: We, the people of the State of Arkansas , grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government…
California 1879: We, the People of the State of California , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.
Colorado 1876: We, the people of Colorado , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe.
Connecticut 1818: The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897: Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.
Florida 1885: We, the people of the State of Florida , grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution…
Georgia 1777: We, the people of Georgia , relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution…
Hawaii 1959: We , the people of Hawaii , Grateful for Divine Guidance .. Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889: We, the people of the State of Idaho , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870: We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil l, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
Indiana 1851: We, the People of the State of Indiana , grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.
Iowa 1857: We, the People of the State of Iowa , grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859: We, the people of Kansas , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891: We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties…
Louisiana 1921: We, the people of the State of Louisiana , grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820: We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity .. And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776: We, the people of the state of Maryland , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty…
Massachusetts 1780: We…the people of Massachusetts , acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe .. In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction…
Michigan 1908: We, the people of the State of Michigan , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.
Minnesota 1857: We, the people of the State of Minnesota , grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:
Mississippi 1890: We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845: We, the people of Missouri , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .. Establish this Constitution.
Montana 1889: We, the people of Montana , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution…
Nebraska 1875: We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864: We the people of the State of Nevada , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution…
New Hampshire 1792: Part I. Art. I. Sec. V . Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
New Jersey 1844: We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911: We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty…
New York 1846: We, the people of the State of New York , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868: We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those…
North Dakota 1889: We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain…
Ohio 1852: We the people of the state of Ohio , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common…
Oklahoma 1907: Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty … establish this.
Oregon 1857: Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences…
Pennsylvania 1776: We, the people of Pennsylvania , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance…
Rhode Island 1842: We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing…
South Carolina 1778: We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889: We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties…
Tennessee 1796: Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience…
Texas 1845: We the People of the Republic of Texas , acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896: Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777: Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man…
Virginia 1776: Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other…
Washington 1889: We the People of the State of Washington , grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution…
West Virginia 1872: Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God…
Wisconsin 1848: We, the people of Wisconsin , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility…
Wyoming 1890: We, the people of the State of Wyoming , grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

I think we can agree at least, this is hardly a secular nation.

[OklahomaTuba]

Article 22 of the Constitution of Delaware (1776) required all officers to profess:

"faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed forevermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scripture of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

[OklahomaTuba]

And why exactly are we beholden to political realities from more than 200 years ago?

The ACLU keeps asking that question as well.

Oh well, history sucks sometimes.

[TUSooner]

The PRINCIPLE of separation is great, I don't want Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ruling over me any more than I want some Ayatollah Assahollah doing it.
But the application of the principle has gone off track.

I think it's pretty well established the Framers' concerns about religion were limited, and they meant only to ensure that the new Gubment would not enforce the collection money for any church, and that no church could appoint gubment officials or use the gubment to punish folks for breaking church rules. I think we got off track when the SCT decided that a person had standing to sue under the 1st Amendment if the "injury" was ony emotional -- or something like that. Law school was a long time ago; maybe law student whiz-kid (whiz-pop?) Homey is more up to date with what I'm thinking of.

[Okla-homey]

The PRINCIPLE of separation is great, I don't want Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson ruling over me any more than I want some Ayatollah Assahollah doing it.
But the application of the principle has gone off track.

I think it's pretty well established the Framers' concerns about religion were limited, and they meant only to ensure that the new Gubment would not enforce the collection money for any church, and that no church could appoint gubment officials or use the gubment to punish folks for breaking church rules. I think we got off track when the SCT decided that a person had standing to sue under the 1st Amendment if the "injury" was ony emotional -- or something like that. Law school was a long time ago; maybe law student whiz-kid (whiz-pop?) Homey is more up to date with what I'm thinking of.

You've framed the controversy nicely. The modern Court has broadened the notion of separation, specifically government endorsement of a particular faith, to where we are now.

I'm convinced the Establishment clause was included in the "greatest document yet devised for the government of mankind" because the framers did not want Congress to establish a state religion, as was the case in Merry Olde Officially Anglican England.

Since 1789, we've arrived at a place where anything government (at any level) does which smacks of official government endorsement of religious expression in the public arena is a no-go.

The leading Establishment clause case is Agostini v. Felton, 521 U.S. 203 (1997). By a 5-4 decision, SCOTUS announced a new Establishment clause three-pronged test to decide whether governmental aid in any form advances a particular religion: 1) does it result in indoctrination? or 2) define the recipient of the governmental aid in terms of religion? or 3) create an excessive entanglement with religion?

In short, this is why the schoolkids themselves can have a prayer if they lead it, and no one feels pressured to join in. Alternatively, if the coach, who is a school official, and therefore an agent of the state says, "huddle-up men we're going to have a prayer now," that violates the first prong of the test. That's also what allows bible clubs/studies in public schools if the kids form and administer them and no one feels pressured to join.

Prong #2 means the gubmint can't decide to give cash to parochial schools or churches, even if they are engaged in worthy work to help out the less fortunate.

Prong #3 is, as I'm sure you recognize, pretty squishy. "Excessive entanglement" is in essence a pretty subjective notion. IMHO, but it can easily be used as a hammer to smackdown a broad range of even limited government involvement with religious groups. It can also be used as a hammer to keep a Nativity scene off public property at Christmas, unless of course, there is also a menorrah, kwanzaa candlabra, statue of Buddha and a Islamic crescent situated prominently nearby.

[BigRedJed]

Dangit. He beat my great, great, great, great... ...grandfather and his siblings here by two years. Now we're just a footnote. Thanks a lot, Roger.