Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 245

Thread: Baghdad Burning

  1. #1
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Baghdad Burning

    Baghdad Burning is a blog by a female -- college educated -- secular Iraqi. She's no religious extremist, and is not by any means vociferously anti-American.

    You guys wonder why I am concerned about us making enemies? Read on...


    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Tuesday, November 18, 2003

    Difficult Days...
    They've been bombing houses in Tikrit and other areas! Unbelievable… I'm so angry it makes me want to break something!!!! What the hell is going on?! What do the Americans think Tikrit is?! Some sort of city of monsters or beasts? The people there are simple people. Most of them make a living off of their land and their livestock- the rest are teachers, professors and merchants- they have lives and families… Tikrit is nothing more than a bunch of low buildings and a palace that was as inaccessible to the Tikritis as it was to everyone else!

    People in Al Awja suffered as much as anyone, if not more- they weren't all related to Saddam and even those who were, suffered under his direct relatives. Granted, his bodyguards and others close to him were from Tikrit, but they aren't currently in Tikrit- the majority have struck up deals with the CPA and are bargaining for their safety and the safety of their families with information. The people currently in Tikrit are just ordinary people whose homes and children are as precious to them as American homes and children are precious to Americans! This is contemptible and everyone thinks so- Sunnis and Shi'a alike are shaking their heads incredulously.

    And NO- I'm not Tikriti- I'm not even from the 'triangle'- but I know simple, decent people who ARE from there and just the thought that this is being done is so outrageous it makes me want to scream. How can that *** of a president say things are getting better in Iraq when his troops have stooped to destroying homes?! Is that a sign that things are getting better? When you destroy someone's home and detain their family, why would they want to go on with life? Why wouldn't they want to lob a bomb at some 19-year-old soldier from Missouri?!

    The troops were pushing women and children shivering with fear out the door in the middle of the night. What do you think these children think to themselves- being dragged out of their homes, having their possessions and houses damaged and burned?! Who do you think is creating the 'terrorists'?!! Do you think these kids think to themselves, "Oh well- we learned our lesson. That's that. Yay troops!" It's like a vicious, moronic circle and people are outraged…
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Monday, September 29, 2003

    ...
    Shortly after the occupation, Jay Garner began meeting with the prominent members of Iraqi society- businessmen, religious leaders, academicians and sheikhs. The sheikhs were important because each sheikh basically had influence over hundreds, if not thousands, of ‘family’. The prominent sheikhs from all over Iraq were brought together in a huge conference of sorts. They sat gathered, staring at the representative of the occupation forces who, I think, was British and sat speaking in broken, awkward Arabic. He told the sheikhs that Garner and friends really needed their help to build a democratic Iraq. They were powerful, influential people- they could contribute a lot to society.

    ...
    So they came to the meeting, wary but willing to listen. Many of them rose to speak. They told the representative right away that the Americans and British were occupiers- that was undeniable, but they were willing to help if it would move the country forward. Their one stipulation was the following: that they be given a timetable that gave a general idea of when the occupation forces would pull out of Iraq.

    They told the representative that they couldn’t go back to their ‘3shayir’, or tribes, asking them to ‘please cooperate with the Americans although they killed your families, raided your homes, and detained your sons’ without some promise that, should security prevail, there would be prompt elections and a withdrawal of occupation forces.

    Some of them also wanted to contribute politically. They had influence, power and connections… they wanted to be useful in some way. The representative frowned, fumbled and told them that there was no way he was going to promise a withdrawal of occupation forces. They would be in Iraq ‘as long as they were needed’… that might be two years, that might be five years and it might be ten years. There were going to be no promises… there certainly was no ‘timetable’ and the sheikhs had no say in what was going on- they could simply consent.

    The whole group, in a storm of indignation and helplessness, rose to leave the meeting. They left the representative looking frustrated and foolish, frowning at the diminishing mass in front of him. When asked to comment on how the meeting went, he smiled, waved a hand and replied, “No comment.” When one of the prominent sheikhs was asked how the meeting went, he angrily said that it wasn’t a conference- they had gathered up the sheikhs to ‘give them orders’ without a willingness to listen to the other side of the story or even to compromise… the representative thought he was talking to his own private army- not the pillars of tribal society in Iraq.

    Apparently, the sheikhs were blacklisted because, of late, their houses are being targeted. They are raided in the middle of the night with armored cars, troops and helicopters. The sheikh and his immediate family members are pushed to the ground with a booted foot and held there at gunpoint. The house is searched and often looted and the sheikh and his sons are dragged off with hands behind their backs and bags covering their heads. The whole family is left outraged and incredulous: the most respected member of the tribe is being imprisoned for no particular reason except that they may need him for questioning. In many cases, the sheikh is returned a few days later with an ‘apology’, only to be raided and detained once more!

    I would think that publicly humiliating and detaining respected members of society like sheikhs and religious leaders would contribute more to throttling democracy than ‘cousins marrying cousins’. Many of the attacks against the occupying forces are acts of revenge for assaulted family members, or people who were killed during raids, demonstrations or checkpoints. But the author fails to mention that, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Friday, April 30, 2004

    Those Pictures...
    The pictures are horrific. I felt a multitude of things as I saw them... the most prominent feeling was rage, of course. I had this incredible desire to break something- like that would make things somehow better or ease the anger and humiliation. We’ve been hearing terrible stories about Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad for a while now, but those pictures somehow spoke like no words could.


    Seeing those naked, helpless, hooded men was like being slapped in the face with an ice cold hand. I felt ashamed looking at them- like I was seeing something I shouldn’t be seeing and all I could think was, “I might know one of those faceless men...” I might have passed him in the street or worked with him. I might have bought groceries from one of them or sat through a lecture they gave in college... any of them might be a teacher, gas station attendant or engineer... any one of them might be a father or grandfather... each and every one of them is a son and possibly a brother. And people wonder at what happened in Falloojeh a few weeks ago when those Americans were killed and dragged through the streets...

    All anyone can talk about today are those pictures... those terrible pictures. There is so much rage and frustration. I know the dozens of emails I’m going to get claiming that this is an ‘isolated incident’ and that they are ‘ashamed of the people who did this’ but does it matter? What about those people in Abu Ghraib? What about their families and the lives that have been forever damaged by the experience in Abu Ghraib? I know the messages that I’m going to get- the ones that say, “But this happened under Saddam...” Like somehow, that makes what happens now OK... like whatever was suffered in the past should make any mass graves, detentions and torture only minor inconveniences now. I keep thinking of M. and how she was 'lucky' indeed. And you know what? You won't hear half of the atrocities and stories because Iraqis are proud, indignant people and sexual abuse is not a subject anyone is willing to come forward with. The atrocities in Abu Ghraib and other places will be hidden away and buried under all the other dirt the occupation brought with it...
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Friday, May 07, 2004

    Just Go...
    People are seething with anger- the pictures of Abu Ghraib and the Brits in Basrah are everywhere. Every newspaper you pick up in Baghdad has pictures of some American or British atrocity or another. It's like a nightmare that has come to life.

    Everyone knew this was happening in Abu Ghraib and other places… seeing the pictures simply made it all more real and tangible somehow. American and British politicians have the audacity to come on television with words like, "True the people in Abu Ghraib are criminals, but…" Everyone here in Iraq knows that there are thousands of innocent people detained. Some were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, while others were detained 'under suspicion'. In the New Iraq, it's "guilty until proven innocent by some miracle of God".

    People are so angry. There’s no way to explain the reactions- even pro-occupation Iraqis find themselves silenced by this latest horror. I can’t explain how people feel- or even how I personally feel. Somehow, pictures of dead Iraqis are easier to bear than this grotesque show of American military technique. People would rather be dead than sexually abused and degraded by the animals running Abu Ghraib prison.

    There was a time when people here felt sorry for the troops. No matter what one's attitude was towards the occupation, there were moments of pity towards the troops, regardless of their nationality. We would see them suffering the Iraqi sun, obviously wishing they were somewhere else and somehow, that vulnerability made them seem less monstrous and more human. That time has passed. People look at troops now and see the pictures of Abu Ghraib… and we burn with shame and anger and frustration at not being able to do something. Now that the world knows that the torture has been going on since the very beginning, do people finally understand what happened in Falloojeh?
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Saturday, May 15, 2004

    Last Few Days...
    That video of Nick Berg is beyond horrible. I haven't been able to watch it whole. It makes me sick to my stomach and I can hardly believe it happened. His family must be devastated and I can't even imagine what they must have felt. With all of this going on- first Abu Ghraib and now this, I haven't felt like writing anything.
    ...

    I was sick to my stomach when I first saw the video on some news channel and stood petrified, watching the screen and praying that they wouldn't show it whole because for some reason, I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I feel horrible. Was I shocked? Was I surprised? Hardly. We've been expecting this since the first pictures of the torture of Iraqi prisoners broke out. There's a certain rage in many people that is frightening. There's a certain hunger and need for revenge that lame apologies from Bush and surprise visits from Rumsfeld won't appease.
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Friday, November 25, 2005
    ...
    I try to imagine what would happen to me, personally, should this occur. How long would it take for the need for revenge to settle in? How long would it take to be recruited by someone who looks for people who have nothing to lose? People who lost it all to one blow. What I think the world doesn’t understand is that people don’t become suicide bombers because- like the world is told- they get seventy or however many virgins in paradise. People become suicide bombers because it is a vengeful end to a life no longer worth living- a life probably violently stripped of its humanity by a local terrorist- or a foreign soldier.

    I hate suicide bombers. I hate the way my heart beats chaotically every time I pass by a suspicious-looking car- and every car looks suspicious these days. I hate the way Sunni mosques and Shia mosques are being targeted right and left. I hate seeing the bodies pile up in hospitals, teeth clenched in pain, wailing men and women…

    But I completely understand how people get there.

    One victim was holding his daughter. "The gunmen told the girl to move then shot the father," said a relative.

    Would anyone be surprised if the abovementioned daughter grew up with a hate so vicious and a need for revenge so large, it dominated everything else in her life?
    Quote Originally Posted by riverbend
    Friday, November 18, 2005
    ...
    The whole world heard about the one in Jadriya, recently raided by the Americans. Jadriya was once one of the best areas in Baghdad. It's an area on the river and is special in that it's greener, and cleaner, than most areas. Baghdads largest university, Baghdad University, is located in Jadriya (with a campus in another area). Jadriya had some of the best shops and restaurants- not to mention some of Baghdad's most elegant homes...… and apparently, now, a torture house.

    We hear constantly about these torture dungeons. Right after the war, certain areas became infamous for them. The world knows them as 'torture houses' for the obvious reasons- they were once ordinary homes, and now they've become torture centers for suspects and innocents alike. The Iraqi government conveniently calls them 'detention centers' and the Iraqi Ministry of Interior oversees and funds them.
    ...
    These torture houses have existed since the beginning of the occupation. While it is generally known that SCIRI is behind them, other religious parties are not innocent. The Americans know they exist- why the sudden shock and outrage? This is hardly news for Americans in the Green Zone. The timing is quite interesting- it shouldn't matter that this raid came immediately after the whole white phosphorous story came out, but the Pentagon and American military have proven to be the ultimate masters of diversion.

    Only last year in an area called Ghazaliya, one such house was discovered. It was on a smaller scale though. My cousin lives in Ghazaliya and he said that when the Americans got inside, they found several corpses and a man hanging from the ceiling on a makeshift noose. The neighbors had tried to get the Americans to check the house for months- no one bothered. They finally raided it because they got information from someone in the area that it was an insurgents hiding place. I read once that in New York, if a woman is being raped, she should scream 'fire' instead of 'rape' because no one would come to save her if she was screaming 'rape'. That's the way it is with Iraqi torture houses- the only way they'll check it is if you tell them it's a terrorist cell.

  2. #2
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Tailwind's Avatar
    Location
    locus delicti
    Posts
    5,126
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaevictis
    Baghdad Burning is a blog by a female -- college educated -- secular Iraqi. She's no religious extremist, and is not by any means vociferously anti-American.

    You guys wonder why I am concerned about us making enemies? Read on...
    Riiight. Uh Uh. I'm not buying that.
    " A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
    Thomas Jefferson


    Olevet Posse Member

  3. #3

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    I give up. We're all evil Americans who just want to blow up anything that moves--or shoot poor Iraqi women and children in the head--or rape them--or all three at the same time.

    We are occupiers--not liberators. It's all in the self interest of our greedy, wanton thirst for oil and world domination.



    Saddam had a better grasp of the situation with these people. Apparently he understood they could not handle personal freedom and the sacrifices it would entail to acheive it. 100K Iraqis dying a year on Hussein's folly was enough to put down any rebellion and keep the peace.

    I wonder if this college educated bitch ever read the Diary Of Anne Frank?

    Keep posting this drivel...use your right of free speech. Apparently some Iraqis don't want to borrow it.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  4. #4

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Do you have some sort of twist, perverted fantasy about torture? I'm wondering since 90% of your posts are about it.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  5. #5
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Sooner in Tampa's Avatar
    Location
    Tampa, Florida, United States
    Posts
    7,886
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    For you to make the statment "She's no religious extremist, and is not by any means vociferously anti-American." is either a lie or you just didn't comprehend it. She is VERY anti-American...she a makes several statements against Bush and the Troops.

    So...move along.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Beanbag View Post
    Six stitches is a pretty decent sized gash.
    Quote Originally Posted by OUthunder View Post
    To hell with Nebraska...they are overrated and irrelevant.

  6. #6
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaSoonerinFla
    For you to make the statment "She's no religious extremist, and is not by any means vociferously anti-American." is either a lie or you just didn't comprehend it.
    I highlighted the keyword for you there.

    She's one of those that seems to have been convincable either way. She was not, and is not, tied to "hatred of America," at least not from what I've read. But we've lost her by our actions, or by our inactions.

    Someone asked me at one point (paraphrased), "Do you have any evidence of people in Iraq reacting like you think they are reacting to Abu Ghraib, etc?" (wrt my concern that our policies might be creating more enemies). Well, here's some.

  7. #7
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 etouffee's Avatar
    Location
    Over the hills and far away
    Posts
    3,586
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    So I guess the point is that because she's an educated Iraqi and living in Iraq, her opinions are the final word on the matter.

    I guess that makes sense-- I would definitely tell a foreigner to pick any ONE blog by an educated American and regard it as reliably representative of the state of things in America.


    by the way, Happy 2000th Post To Me!!!!!!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh yeah? Well OUR coach eats GRASS. Does yours? Yeah, I didn't think so.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Absurdity is the only reality. - Frank Zappa
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  8. #8
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Okla-homey's Avatar
    Location
    Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof...
    Posts
    22,983
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    I don't even think the blog is legit. Its too polished.
    "Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever they can. Point out to them how the nominal winner is often a real loser; in fees, expenses and waste of time." -- Abraham Lincoln, (1809-1865) Lawyer and President who saved the United States.

    "Without opportunities on the part of the poor to obtain expert legal advice, it is idle to talk of equality before the law"-- Justice Chas. Evans Hughes

  9. #9
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Harry Beanbag's Avatar
    Location
    Back in the 480
    Posts
    14,667
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Was I shocked? Was I surprised? Hardly. We've been expecting this since the first pictures of the torture of Iraqi prisoners broke out. There's a certain rage in many people that is frightening. There's a certain hunger and need for revenge that lame apologies from Bush and surprise visits from Rumsfeld won't appease.

    Yeah, she definitely doesn't have an agenda with statements like this.

    I can definitely see how seeing some of your countrymen, who you would probably want to kill anyway if you actually knew them, with dogs barking at them would make you run out and saw an innocent American's head off. These Bush/America haters are void of all logic.

  10. #10
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBorn68
    We are occupiers--not liberators.
    I hate to break it to you, but that is the correct legal term for our status in Iraq.

    (Which is not to say that the two terms are mutually exclusive.)

  11. #11
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Beanbag
    Yeah, she definitely doesn't have an agenda with statements like this.
    Yeah, you definately don't have an agenda with the out of context quotes like this.

    Note the parts you cut out, which modify the tone of what you ended up posting:

    That video of Nick Berg is beyond horrible. I haven't been able to watch it whole. It makes me sick to my stomach and I can hardly believe it happened. His family must be devastated and I can't even imagine what they must have felt.
    ...

    I was sick to my stomach when I first saw the video on some news channel and stood petrified, watching the screen and praying that they wouldn't show it whole because for some reason, I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I feel horrible.

  12. #12

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    His family must be devastated and I can't even imagine what they must have felt.
    Yeah, poppa Berg was so devistated he decided he took up sides with the enemy.

    ...and to be a liberator you must occupy the territory you wish to free. Something tells me you haven't cracked open a history book since high school.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  13. #13

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    V, what's you position about arming the Japanese to thrawt the threat of N. Korea?

    This ought to be interesting.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  14. #14
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBorn68
    ...and to be a liberator you must occupy the territory you wish to free. Something tells me you haven't cracked open a history book since high school.
    ... so basically what you're saying is, "Uh, I guess we are occupiers after all, but I'll be all snarky to try and distract you from that fact." Awesome.

  15. #15
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBorn68
    V, what's you position about arming the Japanese to thrawt the threat of N. Korea?

    This ought to be interesting.
    If Japan wants to arm themselves in response to that, fine with me. I think they've gotten over their dreams of a pan-Asian empire. I think it might even be a good idea, as I think an armed Japan might make a good speedbump against China's aspirations in the region.

  16. #16

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    No, what I'm saying is that you don't get it. You need to start being more of an independent thinker and not rely on blogs and biased websites.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  17. #17

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaevictis
    If Japan wants to arm themselves in response to that, fine with me. I think they've gotten over their dreams of a pan-Asian empire. I think it might even be a good idea, as I think an armed Japan might make a good speedbump against China's aspirations in the region.
    ...and China's just itchin' for a payback from 60 years ago. Why do you think the Chinese are propping up Kim Jong Il? Again, read some history.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

  18. #18
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Sooner in Tampa's Avatar
    Location
    Tampa, Florida, United States
    Posts
    7,886
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    That video of Nick Berg is beyond horrible. I haven't been able to watch it whole. It makes me sick to my stomach and I can hardly believe it happened. His family must be devastated and I can't even imagine what they must have felt.
    ...

    I was sick to my stomach when I first saw the video on some news channel and stood petrified, watching the screen and praying that they wouldn't show it whole because for some reason, I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I feel horrible.
    Well...NO $HIT!!! It is pretty sick to see some dude get his head cut off and that blood curdling scream will never leave my memory either. WTF is the point???? So she has a threshold of how much she can stand...SO WHAT!!!

    If you search the blogosphere, I am sure that you will be able to find an Iraqi blog that supports what we are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Beanbag View Post
    Six stitches is a pretty decent sized gash.
    Quote Originally Posted by OUthunder View Post
    To hell with Nebraska...they are overrated and irrelevant.

  19. #19
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
    Location
    Norman
    Posts
    5,999
    vCash
    500

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBorn68
    No, what I'm saying is that you don't get it. You need to start being more of an independent thinker and not rely on blogs and biased websites.
    Neat thing about blogs is that, sometimes, they're a primary source. This one purports to be exactly that. (Ho ho! Look at that. Maybe I did learn something in school after all!)

    I've been saying for years (yeah, years) that stupid **** that we're doing in Iraq is likely to **** off some of the locals, and might even result in some of them taking up arms against us when they would not have done otherwise.

    I find news reports quoting active US generals in Iraq concerned about it. I find blogs from Iraqi's whose reports indicate its happening. And *I* need to start being more of an independent thinker? I think you need to stop being such a delusional one.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBorn68
    ...and China's just itchin' for a payback from 60 years ago. Why do you think the Chinese are propping up Kim Jong Il? Again, read some history.
    At this point, I'm just a little confused. Are you sarcastically referring to the Japanese -- 60 years ago -- or are you imprecisely referring to Korea 56 years ago?

  20. #20

    Re: Baghdad Burning

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaevictis
    And *I* need to start being more of an independent thinker? I think you need to stop being such a delusional one.
    Yes, you...unless you enjoy being a sheep.

    At this point, I'm just a little confused. Are you sarcastically referring to the Japanese -- 60 years ago -- or are you imprecisely referring to Korea 56 years ago?
    No sarcasm...and no, I'm not talking about the Korean War. This goes back much further. Thanks for trying to correct me on something you have no clue about.

    Here's a hint. Take a look at the politics of Japan, China, Korea, & Russia in 1905, 1910, 1931, and 1937.


    Guns & God clinger-to'er.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •