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  1. #61
    Uber Dad Cam's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg
    I actually agree with a lot of what he said in the 1st post too. I'm thrilled to pieces that the women are where they are and I'm very excited about next year and the following years.

    My point is simply that about a year ago, a similar post (about our men headed upward and our women headed down) could've been written. Getting a girl like Courney Paris can change those things. Maybe one of the guys Kelvin has waiting in the wings can help him right his ship.
    Don't disagree with you man.

    There is one glaring distinction between the two IMO. KS has never gotten a player like Paris (Either one). That is on him and his style and his uncanny ability to coach to his players strengths. The players see that and go elsewhere.

    Until I actually see this next class in uniform, I'm not going to even speculate on them. I'm not at all convinced that the NCAA isn't going to hit us with enough sanctions to make one or all of them to go somewhere else.

  2. #62
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Yeah. Heck, NOBODY's ever gotten a player like Courtney Paris.

    But several of these guys he's got coming in are supposed to be pretty good, not just one of them. Yeah, I'm nervous about it because we'll be putting a lot on their shoulders. But if they are Hollis/Eduardo type guys, I'm confident we'll be back. If they are Drew/DeAngelo type guys, maybe Sampson's at the end of his trail here.

    And I don't think it has anything to do with talent or Sampson's offensive coaching philosophy. I think Sampson's biggest coaching weakness is his inability to work with (or maybe tolerate) players with big egos and I think if he leaves because of a lack of success, that weakness will have been his downfall.

    Good, talented, blue-chip players can come here and be successful...if they are team players. If they are willing to lay it on the line defensively and share points with other people, they can still put up big numbers and OU will be successful. If they want to help OU make it to the Final Four, we'll probably do it. If they want to help themselves make it to the NBA, we'll probably fizzle again. That's the danger of recruiting highly-rated kids. Some of them have their eyes on something else that the less-highly-touted kids don't.

    I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.

  3. #63
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg
    Yeah. Heck, NOBODY's ever gotten a player like Courtney Paris.
    Very true. But, you can find 2 or 3 players similarly as talented as SDS at quite a few of the top WBB's programs.

    But several of these guys he's got coming in are supposed to be pretty good, not just one of them. Yeah, I'm nervous about it because we'll be putting a lot on their shoulders. But if they are Hollis/Eduardo type guys, I'm confident we'll be back. If they are Drew/DeAngelo type guys, maybe Sampson's at the end of his trail here.

    And I don't think it has anything to do with talent or Sampson's offensive coaching philosophy. I think Sampson's biggest coaching weakness is his inability to work with (or maybe tolerate) players with big egos and I think if he leaves because of a lack of success, that weakness will have been his downfall.

    Good, talented, blue-chip players can come here and be successful...if they are team players. If they are willing to lay it on the line defensively and share points with other people, they can still put up big numbers and OU will be successful. If they want to help OU make it to the Final Four, we'll probably do it. If they want to help themselves make it to the NBA, we'll probably fizzle again. That's the danger of recruiting highly-rated kids. Some of them have their eyes on something else that the less-highly-touted kids don't.

    I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.
    Again, very true.

  4. #64
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Cam
    Very true. But, you can find 2 or 3 players similarly as talented as SDS at quite a few of the top WBB's programs.

    Again, very true.
    I'm gonna feel dumb when you tell me, but SDS?

    And to build off my last comment

    I'm hopeful that Sampson has realized that and addressed it with the guys coming in this year. I hope he's looked for some leaders and team-first kinda guys and not just the most talented guys.
    I get the feeling that he's started that trend. Griffin has that feel. Neal has that feel. From what limited stuff I've seen, Austin kinda has that feel.

  5. #65
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 okienole3's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    SDS=Stacie Dales Schuman

  6. #66
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by okienole3
    SDS=Stacie Dales Schuman
    Ahhh, yes. Thanks.

  7. #67
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member RacerX's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Has anybody mentioned that she's hawt?

  8. #68
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    is she gonna continue to do espn work after she returns to the womens game?

  9. #69
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg
    Until she landed Courtney Paris, and now all of a sudden she can coach circles around Kelvin.
    But recruiting is part of the job description.

    Here's another thing: we're going to start losing scholarships in men's basketball at this rate because of the attrition. The new NCAA standards aren't going to look very favorably at the mass exoduses of 2004 and 2005.

  10. #70
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Stoop Dawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner04
    And then you've got the women, who are experiencing what a lot of people around here have known for a LONG time: this state will support a winner.
    Yeah, funny how fickle fans can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner04
    Abandon ship.........
    See?

  11. #71
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner04
    But recruiting is part of the job description.
    04, you're smart enough to have understood my point before I repeated it two more times.

    Let's go back one year, when our men were moving upward and our women were on the decline. If Coach Coale's recruiting class was enough to reserve judgment on her performance, then maybe we should give Sampson another year as well.

  12. #72
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 Sooner04's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships? An 11-12 record in the Dance over a coaching career does not lead me to believe our team is geared to success in late March.

  13. #73
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 okienole3's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg
    04, you're smart enough to have understood my point before I repeated it two more times.

    Let's go back one year, when our men were moving upward and our women were on the decline. If Coach Coale's recruiting class was enough to reserve judgment on her performance, then maybe we should give Sampson another year as well.
    But this isn't year 1 for Sampson.

  14. #74
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Stoop Dawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner04
    Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships?
    It would be awesome if we could finish high in the conference every year (i.e. "contend"), occasionally win it, and go deep in the conference tourny, and occasionally win it too.

    It would also be great to finish high in the AP rankings (i.e. "contend") and have an occasional Final Four appearance.

    Wait a minute.......

  15. #75
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by okienole3
    But this isn't year 1 for Sampson.


    Either you misread what I wrote or you've done a great job of disguising your point.

  16. #76
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TopDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner04
    Are you guys looking to challenge for conference championships or national championships? An 11-12 record in the Dance over a coaching career does not lead me to believe our team is geared to success in late March.
    Well yeah, that's a losing record. Fortunately, Sampson's record is 11-11.

    CASE CLOSED!

  17. #77
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 okienole3's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg


    Either you misread what I wrote or you've done a great job of disguising your point.
    Both. I don't think that Coach Coale was quite at the point last year that Sampson is now. Nobody was calling for her head, so the recruiting class wasn't the thing that made people reserve judgment, because there was no judgment to reserve.

    I really don't think you can compare the two programs anyway. If you can, then it doesn't look good for Sampson. Look at what Coale has turned the women's program into compared to where it was. The program has grown solid, whereas with Sampson it has remained stagnant.

    The big thing to me is the inability to keep players for 4 years, the lack of progress in our big men, and the lack of growth in the program. I could care less about style, etc... A win is a win, but a wins at tourney time are more important than a regular season win. Right or wrong, success at the college level is based on what you so in the tourney.

  18. #78
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Stoop Dawg's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by okienole3
    Look at what Coale has turned the women's program into compared to where it was. The program has grown solid, whereas with Sampson it has remained stagnant.
    IMO, the only way for OU men's basketball to "grow" at this point is to become a Duke, UNC, or KU. Clearly that's what some of you are calling for, and I guess that's okay. But I'm fairly certain that you don't just fire your current (and very good) coach, snap your fingers, and become a basketball dynasty. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. And it takes more than money. There are a lot of schools with a lot more money than OU.

    But comparing the two programs is rather non-sensical. Of course the women are "on the way up", that's about the only direction they had to go. And of course the men are "on the way down", it's tough get to the Final Four every friggin year.

    Quote Originally Posted by okienole3
    The big thing to me is the inability to keep players for 4 years, the lack of progress in our big men, and the lack of growth in the program.
    Those are valid concerns and one's that I share. If team dissent and off-the-court problems become the norm, then a change is in order. But to "abandon ship" after one or two "down" years shows a real lack of support for our team. I also think it's telling that our "down" years still involve trips to the NCAA tourny.

    Expectations are rising. Fans are no longer satisfied with simply winning 20 games or making the NCAA tourny. I don't think that's a bad thing, but let's not throw the guy who got us here "under the bus".

  19. #79
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member NormanPride's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoop Dawg
    IMO, the only way for OU men's basketball to "grow" at this point is to become a Duke, UNC, or KU. Clearly that's what some of you are calling for, and I guess that's okay. But I'm fairly certain that you don't just fire your current (and very good) coach, snap your fingers, and become a basketball dynasty. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. And it takes more than money. There are a lot of schools with a lot more money than OU.

    But comparing the two programs is rather non-sensical. Of course the women are "on the way up", that's about the only direction they had to go. And of course the men are "on the way down", it's tough get to the Final Four every friggin year.



    Those are valid concerns and one's that I share. If team dissent and off-the-court problems become the norm, then a change is in order. But to "abandon ship" after one or two "down" years shows a real lack of support for our team. I also think it's telling that our "down" years still involve trips to the NCAA tourny.

    Expectations are rising. Fans are no longer satisfied with simply winning 20 games or making the NCAA tourny. I don't think that's a bad thing, but let's not throw the guy who got us here "under the bus".
    Your cool-headedness and reason is not welcome here. Take your sanity elsewhere!
    Quote Originally Posted by badger
    I'm changing your sig while you're not looking while I borrow your computer.

  20. #80
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 Sooner04's Avatar
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    Re: Like Two Ships Passing in the Night........

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDawg
    Well yeah, that's a losing record. Fortunately, Sampson's record is 11-11.
    He was 0-1 in the Tournament at Washington State. That's why I stated his career record in the Dance was 11-12.

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