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  1. #1
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
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    Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Frozen Sooner started a thread and made a number of great points, as has come to be expected with him. Please, allow me to try to make a few counterpoints in defense of Coach Sampson.

    ...but don't get me wrong. I'm not happy with the outcome of this season either. I just happen to have a bit more information to work with than many...

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    Myth #1: Kelvin Sampson is not a good coach and we need to find a better one to replace him.

    -- If Kelvin Sampson was not a good coach, he would not have 4 Conference Championships (3 tourney, 1 regular-season), a Sweet 16, an Elite 8, and a Final 4 under his belt... not to mention medalling with USA Basketball. Kelvin Sampson IS a good coach.

    Myth #2: Kelvin Sampson's players do not improve.

    -- Eddie didn't even speak English when he got to campus. I'd say he came along. However, this, I personally feel, is one of the more valid arguments that can be made against him, along with my next point. His players do not improve ENOUGH. Kelvin's system doesn't make for a bunch of scoring. His leading scorer usually averages around 15-18 points per game. It's how much more involved the rest of the team gets that makes the difference.

    Myth #3: Kelvin Sampson cannot coach offense.

    -- This is the other point that I'll hear arguments on. His teams have consistantly under-performed, especially against zone defenses. There are, however, a couple of reasons for this: 1) We've never really had a point guard that was a dual threat of taking it all the way to the rack or being able to kick it back out once the defense collapses. Quannas White was the closest thing I've seen us have to that, and we did pretty well with him here. 2) We've never had a post player that consistantly demanded a double-team, opening up our perimeter shooting. Aaron McGhee was the closest thing I've seen us have to that, and we did pretty well with him here. Taj Grey could have been a close second, BUT...

    Myth #4: Kelvin Sampson's offense is slow and unpredictable.

    -- Tying in with the last point, ANY offense is slow and unpredictable when the only player that can consistantly move the ball against medium pressure is also the biggest ball hog on the team (and maybe in OUr recent history) and doesn't get along, off of the court, with our best player. A lot of those shots that Terrell jacked up this year were shots that he was dumping off to Taj last year. And, just to be clear, I'm calling our best two players Taj and Terrell, and yes, I'm saying that they didn't get along well off of the court this year. It DID carry over into gameplay, but when the only player you've got that can halfway handle the ball is causing trouble, it would cause even MORE trouble for you to NOT play him.

    Myth #5: Kelvin Sampson recruits too many "project" type players...

    -- Oleg Retsov. Renzi Stone. Josepf Szendri. Longar Longar. Victor Avila. Johnnie Gilbert. This, too, could be a valid argument... but he's also managed to develop some of those projects... Like Eduardo. Like Ernie Abercrombie. Granted, the list is shorter, but it's there. I feel like, if Coach Sampson would go after more "home-grown" talent and less "heart, hustle, hardwood" talent, he'd be in a better place... BUT... that was his team THIS year, and look how that worked out. ...and can any of you imagine you'd ever hear the phrase, "Imagine what this year would have been like with a leader like Johnnie Gilbert on the team." There wouldn't have been the Taj / Terrell drama that many of you didn't know existed because he would have squashed it, the way that Kevin SHOULD have and Kellen TRIED to.

    Myth #6: Kelvin runs off all of our good players.

    -- How quickly we forget what the truth is when the sensational is presented to us...

    Ryan Humprey: Head case. Transferred to a school that would help hiim "showcase his offensive talents NOT playing center." Then proceeded to showcase his MENTAL talents by transferring to a school that had an All-American playing the 4, hereby, sticking him at center.

    McKenzie, Lavender, Foust: In order, one-demensional gunner, defensive liability, and head case, the sequel. Yeah, I'd have liked to have seen Drew have some court time with the athletes we had this year, but, at the same time, I'd have had to remember the bad times... the, post-him-up-on-every-possession times...

    Kelvin doesn't run off our good players... Hard word does. These are guys that were expecting college to be an extention of High School for them... coddling and pampering instead of players being as good as and even better than you, and people kissing your *ss. Coach Sampson may be a lot of things, but an *sskisser will NEVER be one of them.

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    I'll leave you guys with those for now. I have to head to work. More later.

    the_ouskull
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  2. #2
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KABOOKIE's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    So everyone Kelvin runs off is a "head case"? I'll disagree with that one.

  3. #3
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Big Red Ron's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by KABOOKIE
    So everyone Kelvin runs off is a "head case"? I'll disagree with that one.
    There's more but I'm lazy and am waiting to see what slipps through the cracks.
    Know thy self,
    know thy enemy.
    A thousand battles,
    a thousand victories. - Sun Tzu (500 B.C.)

  4. #4
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 OUGreg723's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Great Post. KEEP THE FAITH.

  5. #5
    Soon to be Memphibian

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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    D, I think myth #4 is the only one that I actually included in my post.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

  6. #6
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member GDC's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    When one team shoots 32 free throws and we shoot 10, we're screwed no matter who the coach is. We are acting like the classic bandwagoners, everyone's all fired up about the women and down on the men right now.

  7. #7
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by KABOOKIE
    So everyone Kelvin runs off is a "head case"? I'll disagree with that one.
    That is a real weak argument on the transfers- I guess Notre Dame and Xavier are extensions of highscool- Please Xavier is one of the toughest Academic schools in the country.

    Alexander- Head Case- he too has medals for the US- and seems to be doing just fine for Charlotte.

    That is the biggest- LOVEFEST I have seen yet.

  8. #8
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerBBall's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Everyone forgets that McKenzie left because he wanted to be a point guard and Kelvin knew he wasn't. Sampson didn't run McKenzie off, McKenzie *flat out stated* that he wanted to increase his NBA potential and Kelvin wouldn't do that at the expense of the team.

  9. #9
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerBBall's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoRisen
    That is a real weak argument on the transfers- I guess Notre Dame and Xavier are extensions of highscool- Please Xavier is one of the toughest Academic schools in the country.

    Alexander- Head Case- he too has medals for the US- and seems to be doing just fine for Charlotte.

    That is the biggest- LOVEFEST I have seen yet.
    The same Alexander who left because he was afraid of being recruited over and didn't want to have to face the competition?

  10. #10
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Future A10 player of the year- doesn't want to see competition? He was an in state product and started as a freshman- was arguable our best player and certainly the one with the most potential.

    Gone

  11. #11
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 PrideTrombone's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBBall
    The same Alexander who left because he was afraid of being recruited over and didn't want to have to face the competition?
    Obviously the competition wouldn't have been too stiff.
    "Great advice, kid. Way to step up to the plate and knock it out of the park for Team Fail." - bri

  12. #12
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBBall
    Everyone forgets that McKenzie left because he wanted to be a point guard and Kelvin knew he wasn't. Sampson didn't run McKenzie off, McKenzie *flat out stated* that he wanted to increase his NBA potential and Kelvin wouldn't do that at the expense of the team.

    Can't Kelvin qualify that mckenzie wanted to be a point guard before he came to OU? You are not going to keep excellent players if you force them into posoitions that will not get them to the next level- the biggest difference between the football program and the basketball program in that respect- is ussually accompanied with a position change comes Playing time and a better chance at the NFL- if you can't keep that in perspective- don't bother playing for National championships-

  13. #13
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KABOOKIE's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerBBall
    Everyone forgets that McKenzie left because he wanted to be a point guard and Kelvin knew he wasn't. Sampson didn't run McKenzie off, McKenzie *flat out stated* that he wanted to increase his NBA potential and Kelvin wouldn't do that at the expense of the team.

    Wait a minute? Attracting NBA potentials to OU would hurt the team?

  14. #14
    Soon to be Memphibian

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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Alexander did not leave because he was frightened of competition or being recruited over.

    DeAngelo Alexander would not have played for OU last year. Period. Whether he had been at OU or not, he would not have stepped foot on the basketball court. It has nothing to do with his talent, it has nothing to do with getting along with Coach Sampson, and it has nothing to do with him wanting to be on the OU basketball team or not.

    Brandon Foust was not a high character guy. Leave it at that. You'd think the fact that he was arrested for burglary shortly after his dismissal from the team would have brought that home.

    Lawrence MacKenzie did want to be a point when he was recruited. Kelvin gave him a shot at the point. He was a disaster-he couldn't bring the ball up against any kind of defense and his T:A assist ratio was abysmal.

    I'm not trying to apologize for Coach Sampson and these players leaving, but those are the facts.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

  15. #15
    Sooner All-World
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Alexander not qualify to play?

  16. #16
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Alexander left becasue he wants to get to the next level- you better here two sides to the story not- the excuses after the fact that we don't retain.

  17. #17
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    so, which is the truth? wants to play in the NBA or the mystery Froze left us with?

    c'mon guys.

  18. #18
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerBBall's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by KABOOKIE
    Wait a minute? Attracting NBA potentials to OU would hurt the team?
    Who said that? Attracting NBA potential to OU is great, but only if the talent is there.

    Did you ever see McKenzie play? He is the one-dimensional player that some of you claim Michael Neal to be. Neal plays good defense and moves very well without the ball. McKenzie just shot threes. That is it. He had no handles, couldn't create his own shot, was very slow, and was a greater defensive liability then Lavender. Not only was he not NBA point-guard material, I doubt he was NBA anything material.

  19. #19
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    What I am saying is you can't pass the buck for Kelvin, he recruited these players and is responsible to see too it that they are fitting into the program-

    I think that he biatch slaps em- and that he doesn't psychologically manage his team well- if he were more like Phil Jackson- he would pass a peice pipe and discuss how the team is going to be better. Most schools have to manage a lot more talent and recruit year in year out- Kelvin has proven too me that he can't handle his own recruits- anything you say about it points to Kelvin.. Just about everyone that has transfered has started for or will start for a Major Basketball program.

  20. #20
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerBBall's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Our Men Are Finished? Well, Allow Me To Retort...

    Quote Originally Posted by MojoRisen
    What I am saying is you can't pass the buck for Kelvin, he recruited these players and is responsible to see too it that they are fitting into the program-

    I think that he biatch slaps em- and that he doesn't psychologically manage his team well- if he were more like Phil Jackson- he would pass a peice pipe and discuss how the team is going to be better. Most schools have to manage a lot more talent and recruit year in year out- Kelvin has proven too me that he can't handle his own recruits- anything you say about it points to Kelvin.. Just about everyone that has transfered has started for or will start for a Major Basketball program.
    You're right. How could I have not realized it before. We are the only program that underachieved this year. No other coach besides Sampson has transfers or personnel problems. He is also the only coach that has ever made mistakes, be it during recruiting, game planning, or handling transfers. Furthermore, OU is entitled to be good at everything because we are good at football and that makes us better than everyone and above the normal worries and concerns of every other college.

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