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  1. #41
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    I was not considering legal slavery. I would think in your wildest imagination you wouldn't expect neither I nor practically anyone else in America would believe that is good. I was referring to the government not abusing commerce clause as their doing so is always the case when democrats run the government. Serenity was rehashing the 2000 vote, saying he would prefer that algore would have won. Hence my asking him what he thought of America as founded. As for voting, I would expect that the founders would be aghast at open borders and no photo ID required for voting, as well as other voter fraud things going on, that attempt to get democrats into office. In other words, you can be flippant, but it's not fooling anyone, except your fellow travelers.
    I don't even know if I voted for gore. I was not a gore fan.

    I like the America that the founders envisioned. Freedom of religion. A military that protected the country not engaged in wars all across the world drumming up enemies And creating things like Taliban, al-q, and Isis. Shock and awe baby!!!!

  2. #42
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
    I don't even know if I voted for gore. I was not a gore fan.

    I like the America that the founders envisioned. Freedom of religion. A military that protected the country not engaged in wars all across the world drumming up enemies And creating things like Taliban etc. Shock and awe baby!!!!
    Speaks for itself. Thanks.
    Put a lid on it! Kiss it goodbye. We gave it away, and apparently thought it made sense to do so.

  3. #43
    Stayatworkdad yermom's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    Speaks for itself. Thanks.
    Just keep your head in the sand and ignore facts. Where do you think they got their training and weapons from?

    See also 80's Iraq.

  4. #44
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    Speaks for itself. Thanks.
    I've said here before that I voted for bush 1, bush 1, h Ross Perot, I don't remember in 2000, bush 2 in 2004, and the Obama. I don't remember who in 2000. I was not a fan of gore. How is that hard to grasp?

    Reagan helped create the Taliban by arming the mullahs against Russia. Then there's Iran contra. Remember those pics of "shock and awe" Rumsfeld chumming it up with saddam? We created Isis by The vacuum we created and the civilian casualties in excess of 100,000. That's a built in reason for jihadis. You're not that dense.

  5. #45
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
    I've said here before that I voted for bush 1, bush 1, h Ross Perot, I don't remember in 2000, bush 2 in 2004, and the Obama. I don't remember who in 2000. I was not a fan of gore. How is that hard to grasp?

    Reagan helped create the Taliban by arming the mullahs against Russia. Then there's Iran contra. Remember those pics of "shock and awe" Rumsfeld chumming it up with saddam? We created Isis by The vacuum we created and the civilian casualties in excess of 100,000. That's a built in reason for jihadis. You're not that dense.
    You're right about all of that. But, let's not be too harsh with Reagan arming the mujahadeen. Global interests constantly change. The alternative to Reagan's pragmatism is idealism -- an ideological based foreign policy is precisely how Iraq happened, how Afghanistan became a cluster****, and the insane support for the Arab Spring. The opposite of Reagan's pragmatism is this god-awful Wilsonian-Trotskyesque abomination known as neoconservatism which is also more prominent than it should be on the left.

    Long story short -- nobody predicted that arming the Afghans would lead to planes being flown into the WTC little more than a decade later. At that point in time, it was absolutely in the interest of the United States to arm the Afghans against the Soviet invasion. However, I would argue that the first Gulf War is more directly responsible for the rise in anti-American sentiment in the region. The sheer number of American troops in the region combined with the fact that we kept a heavy presence in the region after the Gulf War is a major factor in the rise of jihadism.

  6. #46
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post

    Reagan helped create the Taliban by arming the mullahs against Russia. Then there's Iran contra. Remember those pics of "shock and awe" Rumsfeld chumming it up with saddam? We created Isis by The vacuum we created and the civilian casualties in excess of 100,000. That's a built in reason for jihadis. You're not that dense
    (obligatory stupid card played)I know you think radical Islam was caused by the horror that is America. Your answer here of course doesn't talk about absurd rules of engagement nor nearly completely pulling out of the area and leaving incredible amounts of armaments for the jihadis. Thanks Obear. Your love for America and freedom is quite apparent.
    Last edited by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!; 9/2/2015 at 01:33 AM.
    Put a lid on it! Kiss it goodbye. We gave it away, and apparently thought it made sense to do so.

  7. #47
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    (obligatory stupid card played)I know you think radical Islam was caused by the horror that is America. Your answer here of course doesn't talk about absurd rules of engagement nor nearly completely pulling out of the area and leaving incredible amounts of armaments for the jihadis. Thanks Obear. Your love for America and freedom is quite apparent.
    United States foreign policy is *precisely* what created radical Islam and the subsequent calls for jihad against the United States and American interests. It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who say government can't do anything right at home (they can't) turn around and refuse to acknowledge that the United States has done anything wrong abroad (they have). The United States government is as inept and hamfisted abroad as they are at home. Very little of what the United States does internationally is a net-positive for the United States beyond trade agreements between economies equitable to our own. Of course they negate that with NAFTA and the TPP so that's a wash.

  8. #48
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    United States foreign policy is *precisely* what created radical Islam and the subsequent calls for jihad against the United States and American interests. It never ceases to amaze me when the same people who say government can't do anything right at home (they can't) turn around and refuse to acknowledge that the United States has done anything wrong abroad (they have). The United States government is as inept and hamfisted abroad as they are at home. Very little of what the United States does internationally is a net-positive for the United States beyond trade agreements between economies equitable to our own. Of course they negate that with NAFTA and the TPP so that's a wash.
    America foreign policy as a cause for Radical Islam and jihadism that goes back to the 7th century or whenever is a primary focus of the Left, although not nearly as much when their party(democrat) is in power. It also is for Libertarians and Sicem. I fully understand that, and don't expect any of you to ever believe differently.
    Put a lid on it! Kiss it goodbye. We gave it away, and apparently thought it made sense to do so.

  9. #49
    Stayatworkdad yermom's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Sweet strawman bro

  10. #50
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    America foreign policy as a cause for Radical Islam and jihadism that goes back to the 7th century or whenever is a primary focus of the Left, although not nearly as much when their party(democrat) is in power. It also is for Libertarians and Sicem. I fully understand that, and don't expect any of you to ever believe differently.
    Radical Islam has always been there. If it was a small brush pile fire, we did our part to make it a dumpster fire. Take an 18 year old, place him in a country that has the infrastructure blown to bits and then have one of his innocent family members killed by "shock and awe" and it becomes less about a religious sect and more about revenge.

    https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    As a chicken hawk, I wouldn't expect you to believe anything less than "We are America. We are great. It says it on my hat. They will greet us like liberators."

  11. #51
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    I was not considering legal slavery. I would think in your wildest imagination you wouldn't expect neither I nor practically anyone else in America would believe that is good. I was referring to the government not abusing commerce clause as their doing so is always the case when democrats run the government. Serenity was rehashing the 2000 vote, saying he would prefer that algore would have won. Hence my asking him what he thought of America as founded. As for voting, I would expect that the founders would be aghast at open borders and no photo ID required for voting, as well as other voter fraud things going on, that attempt to get democrats into office. In other words, you can be flippant, but it's not fooling anyone, except your fellow travelers.
    Our founders would be aghast at the Texas model of requiring voter ID's but then not making voter ID's more accessible. I think, much like Jesus, they'd be aghast at a lot that's going on in both parties.

  12. #52
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by yermom View Post
    The founders were obviously wrong about a few things.

    I don't seem to remember the part in the Constitution about closed borders though. What would you base the founding fathers' thoughts on that from?
    Let me answer that for Rush: "The Founding Fathers were great men, I am a good man, I believe in closed borders, therefore the FF would have been aghast at open borders."

    Personally, I'm pretty sure a controlling faction of the FF were in favor of at least one sort of "immigration," as the Constitution as written prohibited interference in the importation of slaves "prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight."
    Ukraine: Not Our Fight.

    More epicycles!

  13. #53
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    You're right about all of that. But, let's not be too harsh with Reagan arming the mujahadeen. Global interests constantly change. The alternative to Reagan's pragmatism is idealism -- an ideological based foreign policy is precisely how Iraq happened, how Afghanistan became a cluster****, and the insane support for the Arab Spring. The opposite of Reagan's pragmatism is this god-awful Wilsonian-Trotskyesque abomination known as neoconservatism which is also more prominent than it should be on the left.

    Long story short -- nobody predicted that arming the Afghans would lead to planes being flown into the WTC little more than a decade later. At that point in time, it was absolutely in the interest of the United States to arm the Afghans against the Soviet invasion. However, I would argue that the first Gulf War is more directly responsible for the rise in anti-American sentiment in the region. The sheer number of American troops in the region combined with the fact that we kept a heavy presence in the region after the Gulf War is a major factor in the rise of jihadism.
    Two decades, FWIW, but ol' Zbig stands by the decision, the spalpeen.
    Ukraine: Not Our Fight.

    More epicycles!

  14. #54
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerProphet's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    You're right about all of that. But, let's not be too harsh with Reagan arming the mujahadeen. Global interests constantly change. The alternative to Reagan's pragmatism is idealism -- an ideological based foreign policy is precisely how Iraq happened, how Afghanistan became a cluster****, and the insane support for the Arab Spring. The opposite of Reagan's pragmatism is this god-awful Wilsonian-Trotskyesque abomination known as neoconservatism which is also more prominent than it should be on the left.

    Long story short -- nobody predicted that arming the Afghans would lead to planes being flown into the WTC little more than a decade later. At that point in time, it was absolutely in the interest of the United States to arm the Afghans against the Soviet invasion. However, I would argue that the first Gulf War is more directly responsible for the rise in anti-American sentiment in the region. The sheer number of American troops in the region combined with the fact that we kept a heavy presence in the region after the Gulf War is a major factor in the rise of jihadism.
    I get the affinity for Saint Ronnie and the reluctance to associate him with political stupidity but your are letting him off the hook. Or meddling and overt support of ISI in Pakistan leads directly to the world wide jihadi movement we see today. No massive funding of the jihadi groups, no looking the other way as Arab nationals flood in as "freedom fighters"' no CIA training manuals, etc...I am hard pressed to find any pragmatic thought in giving massive amounts of weapons and cash to a bunch of Islamic nuts. I will agree with the notion the GW1 gave the likes of OBL the fuel to feed his hatred of the infidel. Our presence on holy soil and our support of the corrupt House of Saud was further ammo for jihad against us.

  15. #55
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Long before Reagan, the sheet heads in the middle east were screwing with each other and terrorizing around the globe.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
    President Ronald Reagan at the Berlin Wall, June 12, 1987

  16. #56
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Can't we all just get along and let Dlck and Lez Cheney re-write history the way they see fit ?


    5-0
    BOY HOWDY !!!!

  17. #57
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    Long before Reagan, the sheet heads in the middle east were screwing with each other and terrorizing around the globe.
    True. There's always been a flame there. We've provided fuel and wind.

  18. #58
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 Ton Loc's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
    True. There's always been a flame there. We've provided fuel and wind.
    And a new target. Reagan wasn't any better than the rest of them. It's just that what he screwed up didn't really affect the people in power (whitey). Plus, there was no internet, forums, information, 24 hour news cycle, etc. to screw him over.
    It takes one to know one, and I know you don't know a damn thing.

  19. #59
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
    True. There's always been a flame there. We've provided fuel and wind.
    It might be fun to pretend that. But, underage boy-raping muslims have been terrorizing for over a thousand years, long before America was even discovered and settled.

    Buy a history book or two.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
    President Ronald Reagan at the Berlin Wall, June 12, 1987

  20. #60
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
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    Re: We Can Do Better

    Quote Originally Posted by RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone! View Post
    America foreign policy as a cause for Radical Islam and jihadism that goes back to the 7th century or whenever is a primary focus of the Left, although not nearly as much when their party(democrat) is in power. It also is for Libertarians and Sicem. I fully understand that, and don't expect any of you to ever believe differently.
    Jihadism certainly pre-dates the existence of the United States, but jihadism directed at the United States does not. Clearly, I was speaking of the latter. American policies in the mid-east are directly responsible for anti-American sentiment which has destabilized the region and threatened our security. There's no arguing otherwise.

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