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  1. #1
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    US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Former Diplomat: US Has Right to Fly Over South China Sea

    Friday, 22 May 2015 11:12 AM
    By Sandy Fitzgerald

    The United States has the right to fly its planes over the South China Sea and to have its naval and commercial vessels in the location, which is considered international waters, former diplomat Nicholas Burns said Friday, and "we can't be in a situation where China believes they own everything."

    "This is a major problem for the United States, and many other countries have it with the Chinese," said Burns, an undersecretary of state under President George W. Bush, told CNN's "New Day" program. The airspace and waters are international airspace, said Burns, and "China doesn't own them."

    On Wednesday, the Chinese Navy warned a U.S. surveillance plane eight times as it flew over a series of man-made islands the Chinese military is building up, reports CNN, whose correspondent Jim Sciutto was on the plane.

    The Pentagon and regional allies near China have viewed the buildup with alarm, and the Pentagon has ordered the surveillance flights to make it clear that the United States does not recognize China's claim on the region.

    Wednesday night, former CIA Deputy Director Michael Morell told CNN that the confrontation indicates there is "absolutely" a risk that the United States and China could eventually go to war.

    However, Burns said Friday that he doesn't believe there is a "high probability" of conflict between the U.S. and China, as that nation "has too much respect for the power of the United States Air Force and Navy to try and take us on."

    But still, Burns said, the Chinese are saying that as they are building up the isolated reefs, and "possession is nine-tenth of the law, and they are going to take it when it's not theirs."

    The problem with that, and with China's push for dominance in east Asia, is that the United States has been the predominant military in the region since World War II ended.

    "We have alliances there, and all of these countries, the southeast Asian countries, they are smaller than China and can't compete militarily, so they want the rest of the world to stand up for their legal rights," said Burns. "The United States, interestingly enough, they don't try to be the umpire here…[but] we don't want to see an Asia where China uses its muscle to coerce neighbors. This is not China's legal territory."

    The United States must continue to assert its right to sail and fly in the international space, said Burns, and President Barack Obama needs to appeal to Chinese President Xi Jinping to control his own military.

    "We have seen where the Chinese military acts independently, and they are much more aggressive," said Burns. "We have seen threats in the past, and it's clearly the responsibility of Beijing to get control over this aggressive military."

    The U.S. government has already warned the Chinese in the past, said Burns, and "the Obama administration has been working hard on this to convince the Chinese there will be the big losers if there is an incident."

    Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Nic...#ixzz3asxr41ti
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  2. #2
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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    It's more their business than ours.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    It's more their business than ours.
    Not if they are claiming air space that isn't theirs and threatening our aircraft in the process.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    It's more their business than ours.
    When do you believe it's appropriate to use, or risk in this case, our military? A clear line of "Not until we've been attacked?"
    Ukraine: Not Our Fight.

    More epicycles!

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAFBSooner View Post
    When do you believe it's appropriate to use, or risk in this case, our military? A clear line of "Not until we've been attacked?"
    Non interventionist doesn't mean you have to be a doormat.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAFBSooner View Post
    When do you believe it's appropriate to use, or risk in this case, our military? A clear line of "Not until we've been attacked?"
    When we've been attacked excepting some extreme circumstances. If the Chinese were building these islands in the Gulf of Mexico then I'd support more aggressive action. As it is, this is the South China Sea.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    When we've been attacked excepting some extreme circumstances. If the Chinese were building these islands in the Gulf of Mexico then I'd support more aggressive action. As it is, this is the South China Sea.
    So should we give up our right to international shipping lanes and airspace in the South China Sea?

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    They aren't threatening shipping lanes or airspace. In fact, there was an American commercial flight in the vicinity at the same time as China was attempting to wave off the US surveillance flight. The commercial pilot was confused, asked for clarification, and was told by the Chinese that the commercial flight was just fine and that the radio traffic was not directed at them. Imagine that, China doesn't want US spy plane buzzing around their operations. I'm sure the United States would be totally cool if China was buzzing around US military bases, operations, and naval forces in the south Atlantic with spy planes....right?

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    They aren't threatening shipping lanes or airspace. In fact, there was an American commercial flight in the vicinity at the same time as China was attempting to wave off the US surveillance flight. The commercial pilot was confused, asked for clarification, and was told by the Chinese that the commercial flight was just fine and that the radio traffic was not directed at them. Imagine that, China doesn't want US spy plane buzzing around their operations. I'm sure the United States would be totally cool if China was buzzing around US military bases, operations, and naval forces in the south Atlantic with spy planes....right?
    I think spy planes are allowed in international waters/skies. Correct?

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
    I think spy planes are allowed in international waters/skies. Correct?
    Why do we need spy planes flying over when we have satellites with high resolution cameras that probably do a better job of surveying the target? Once again my fear is that the US will be expected to do all of the heavy lifting in any disagreement with China while our "allies" in the region like South Korea and Japan sit back and let us do their dirty work for them.
    Beware the man who would rule you for your own good. He will never cease. He will regulate every aspect of your life, destroy your liberty and enslave you, and sleep well convinced that he has made the world a better place.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    They aren't threatening shipping lanes or airspace. In fact, there was an American commercial flight in the vicinity at the same time as China was attempting to wave off the US surveillance flight. The commercial pilot was confused, asked for clarification, and was told by the Chinese that the commercial flight was just fine and that the radio traffic was not directed at them. Imagine that, China doesn't want US spy plane buzzing around their operations. I'm sure the United States would be totally cool if China was buzzing around US military bases, operations, and naval forces in the south Atlantic with spy planes....right?
    Doesn't really matter if China wants us there or not if it is international airspace. And, according to the article, it appears China is just creating their own islands in international waters in violation of international law. They don't have any right or legal authority to be warning our planes that are flying in international airspace.

    The US can stick its nose where it doesn't belong in many cases but this isn't one of them.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Doesn't really matter if China wants us there or not if it is international airspace.
    Technically, yes, but that's a pretty ****ty policy. That's like standing on a public street or sidewalk with a pair of binoculars staring into someone's home. Are you technically allowed to stand on a public street and do that? I suppose. But, you're a ****ing ******* if you do.
    And, according to the article, it appears China is just creating their own islands in international waters in violation of international law. They don't have any right or legal authority to be warning our planes that are flying in international airspace.
    We warn Russian and Chinese planes when they get too close to our fleet sailing in international waters. Russia has a habit of trying to buzz the US Navy with flyovers. We warn them off in addition to scrambling fighters. I'm assuming we have no right to warn them off so long as it's in international waters, right?

    The US can stick its nose where it doesn't belong in many cases but this isn't one of them.
    So, then, you agree with me?

  13. #13
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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    So, we're wanting to ramp up military confrontations with....Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, and now China? Is there some end to this absolute nonsense or should we just dispense with all of the thin pretexts and just declare a new era of American imperialism and roll tanks from one end of the globe to the other with no regard to a nation's sovereignty?

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    So, we're wanting to ramp up military confrontations with....Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, and now China? Is there some end to this absolute nonsense or should we just dispense with all of the thin pretexts and just declare a new era of American imperialism and roll tanks from one end of the globe to the other with no regard to a nation's sovereignty?
    You mean we haven't already done that?! We have global tank gap!

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    So, we're wanting to ramp up military confrontations with....Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, and now China? Is there some end to this absolute nonsense or should we just dispense with all of the thin pretexts and just declare a new era of American imperialism and roll tanks from one end of the globe to the other with no regard to a nation's sovereignty?
    Sic em... I agree with you on most of those situations excluding Afghanistan and China. Smart diplomacy coupled with realistic outcomes should govern our approach to foreign policy.

    But China's expansionism doesn't mean the U.S. Has to accept it nor should it. Non interventionism doesn't mean disavowing our rights on the international scene.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Doesn't really matter if China wants us there or not if it is international airspace. And, according to the article, it appears China is just creating their own islands in international waters in violation of international law. They don't have any right or legal authority to be warning our planes that are flying in international airspace.

    The US can stick its nose where it doesn't belong in many cases but this isn't one of them.
    Imagine that! China is ignoring international law. The nerve! It's like they figure as long as no one wants to/is able to fight them about it, they'll do as they d@mn well please.

    I wonder where they learned that.



    If the other nations with interests in the South China Sea committed to putting some troops at risk, would you support the US joining such a coalition? We have a mutual defense treaty with the Philippines, but not with Viet Nam.
    Ukraine: Not Our Fight.

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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAFBSooner View Post
    Imagine that! China is ignoring international law.
    No. They're not really, depending on your perspective. They are developing those reefs and micro-islands which are in an area they claim. To be fair, those claims are disputed; however, this is entirely a localized issue between the various claimants of that area of which the United States is not and should not be party...unless you can make the case we have some sort of territorial claim over the area (with a straight face, of course).

    Have they seized or otherwise stopped or impeded the flow of commercial aircraft or commercial shipping in the area? No. They only thing they've done is wave off US surveillance aircraft which is PRECISELY the same thing that we do when Chinese and Russian aircraft get too close even when it's in international waters.

    The Chinese, as you know, don't possess a blue-water Navy capable of projecting power globally. They have one old Russian aircraft carrier they refit and, last I heard, they don't even yet have the aircraft capable of taking off/landing from an aircraft carrier. The United States is able to have massive "mobile islands" that it can move about the globe like chess pieces. The Chinese, whether you think their claim is valid or not, is simply shoring up its southern flank with what amounts to immobile aircraft carriers.

  18. #18
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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Here's what should happen:

    1)Those who stake claim to the area can and should continue the argument via diplomatic negotiations and in international court if necessary.

    2)The United States in no way should be involved unless/until:

    3)If China ever starts seizing or impeding the flow of merchant traffic or commercial aircraft that are flagged by the United States then and ONLY then should the United States get involved.

    4)The response of the United States in the aforementioned scenario should be diplomatic/economic/legal unless/until:

    5)If China ever does something as insane as fire upon US commercial/merchant/military traffic in the area then and ONLY then should the United States military become involved.

  19. #19
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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAFBSooner View Post
    Imagine that! China is ignoring international law. The nerve! It's like they figure as long as no one wants to/is able to fight them about it, they'll do as they d@mn well please.

    I wonder where they learned that.



    If the other nations with interests in the South China Sea committed to putting some troops at risk, would you support the US joining such a coalition? We have a mutual defense treaty with the Philippines, but not with Viet Nam.
    Heh heh...Hopefully China learned from Japan when the "land of the rising sun" was carving them up prior to and during WWII.

    I could see the US being part of a coalition but I'd want it to be their troops doing the fighting. We could help supply them, though.

    Of course, if we were fired upon or denied access to shipping lanes or airspace in international waters then that would be a game changer.

  20. #20
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    Re: US/China tensions in the South China Sea.

    Geez...where's a tsunami when you need one?

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