What Just happened???

[KantoSooner]

I have long found it a curious phenomenon, Fanin, that so many people run their mouths about supposed corrupt, bent, dishonest or otherwise illegit practices at OU, but when push comes to shove and real life challenges are made, in the courts, it all turns out to be either third party crap, paranoid meanderings or otherwise groundless.
If you're so sure of your case, sue; you'll make good money. If you don't want to go it alone, start a class action.
Alternatively, you could investigate the possibility that things are running along pretty close to what 'the rules' call for and that Boren is not conducting satanic rituals in his basement late at night to either illegally benefit football players or to collude in the dastardly destruction of the footballl program. (I forget which side of the anti-Boren camp you're in these days).

[graphster]

Just to be clear, the frat wasn't just punished because they said some bad things or used a bad word. The chant specifically referred to lynching, within a context of illustrating how they were excluding people based on race. Keep in mind the historical context of actual lynchings and discriminatory practices that happened in Oklahoma and many other states less a century ago. There are still people alive today who grew up in a culture where Black people were lynched and were barred from participating in a variety of public institutions. That is not even in the same ballpark as simply using a racial slur. And it turns out that the frat was, in fact, bigoted in how they treated African Americans on campus. Not just in the chant, but in a range of other interactions with students on campus (including athletes). It's not just that they said racist words, it's that the organization was also actively helping to create an environment that resulted in many students feeling excluded, and that was essentially institutionalizing racial discrimination.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Just to be clear, the frat wasn't just punished because they said some bad things or used a bad word. The chant specifically referred to lynching, within a context of illustrating how they were excluding people based on race. Keep in mind the historical context of actual lynchings and discriminatory practices that happened in Oklahoma and many other states less a century ago. There are still people alive today who grew up in a culture where Black people were lynched and were barred from participating in a variety of public institutions. That is not even in the same ballpark as simply using a racial slur. And it turns out that the frat was, in fact, bigoted in how they treated African Americans on campus. Not just in the chant, but in a range of other interactions with students on campus (including athletes). It's not just that they said racist words, it's that the organization was also actively helping to create an environment that resulted in many students feeling excluded, and that was essentially institutionalizing racial discrimination.

What is the "historical context" of a black man using a gay slur and breaking a white woman's face? Are there "still people alive today" who are growing up in that culture. Oh...that's so Summer of 2014. We've gotten past that dark chapter in our nation's history now.

Also, while we're on the subject of "organizations" creating "environment(s) that result in many students feeling excluded" - show me the evidence of black fraternities trying to recruit white OU students to make sure they are not contributing to "institutionalizing racial discrimination."

In fact, go by a black frat house and ask to speak to the white members.

[Eielson]

From what I've heard, SAE had 2 strikes, so this is clearly worthy of strike 3. I don't know how anybody could argue that. A very large group was reciting it, and it seems that just about everybody in SAE knew it.

My concern was going after individuals, and kicking kids out of their housing (innocent AND guilty) during a huge week of midterms. I'm also concerned about where we draw the line for all these witch hunts. What happens to me if I get a little intoxicated one night and threaten to cut some fags dick off?

[SoonerorLater]

From what I've heard, SAE had 2 strikes, so this is clearly worthy of strike 3. I don't know how anybody could argue that. A very large group was reciting it, and it seems that just about everybody in SAE knew it.

My concern was going after individuals, and kicking kids out of their housing (innocent AND guilty) during a huge week of midterms. I'm also concerned about where we draw the line for all these witch hunts. What happens to me if I get a little intoxicated one night and threaten to cut some fags dick off?

Hmm? A reprimand from the SoonerFans Message Board?

[FaninAma]

I have long found it a curious phenomenon, Fanin, that so many people run their mouths about supposed corrupt, bent, dishonest or otherwise illegit practices at OU, but when push comes to shove and real life challenges are made, in the courts, it all turns out to be either third party crap, paranoid meanderings or otherwise groundless.
If you're so sure of your case, sue; you'll make good money. If you don't want to go it alone, start a class action.
Alternatively, you could investigate the possibility that things are running along pretty close to what 'the rules' call for and that Boren is not conducting satanic rituals in his basement late at night to either illegally benefit football players or to collude in the dastardly destruction of the footballl program. (I forget which side of the anti-Boren camp you're in these days).

May I ask you politiely WTF are you talking about? Is it really such a stretch to ask Boren to be consistent in how he fulfils his duties and obligations in regard to overseeing student conduct and behavior? OU is taking a beating in the national media right now and the football team with their butt hurt antics has had no small part in that. Why does everything have to be seen in a nunanced, shades of grey manner? Either Boren has been fair and consistent or he hasn't. You feel he has been because of extenuating circumstances. I don't because I think his principles have been corrupted by outside interests that cause him to bend the rules for a select few. And then the select few who he bent the rules for turn around and ungratefully kick him and the University in the ***.

[aurorasooner]

Can't you guys see that Boren didn't have the time to weigh his decision like he had with the Mixon/Shannon deal. He had to make the decision overnight, and if he wasn't forceful enough, our campus could've resembled Ferguson, Missouri in a couple of days, especially with those sensationalist vultures from CNN lurking around 24/7.
I don't personally agree with some of the things he did, like kicking the in-house SAEs out on the street virtually over-night, however I don't have all the facts he does, but overall he controlled a possible explosive, and I mean real explosive, situation.

[SoonerorLater]

I can't believe the Boren bashing over this event. In the past I have been critical of Boren. In this case he was spot on. Why would anybody think he should necessarily treat the football team like he does some fraternity? In the larger scheme of things SAE is irrelevant to the University of Oklahoma. The football team is a cash cow. When some fraternity creates as much revenue for the University as the football team does then you might have a point. Until then you do what is necessary to keep the ship afloat.

[FaninAma]

Can't you guys see that Boren didn't have the time to weigh his decision like he had with the Mixon/Shannon deal. He had to make the decision overnight, and if he wasn't forceful enough, our campus could've resembled Ferguson, Missouri in a couple of days, especially with those sensationalist vultures from CNN lurking around 24/7.
I don't personally agree with some of the things he did, like kicking the in-house SAEs out on the street virtually over-night, however I don't have all the facts he does, but overall he controlled a possible explosive, and I mean real explosive, situation.

If anything the extra time he had to make a fair decision in the Mixon/Shannon/DBG cases is even more of an indictment of his unequal approach to the latest conduct issue. I have no problem with coming down hard on the guilty offenders as they were identified but do have a problem with him making a show of force and hammering students in the fraternity who may not have been involved with the racism simply to satisfy the blood lust of the PC crowd in the media and other groups. Leaders don't do that. Parents don't send their kids to OU to be used as examples by the administration because they are afraid of a little heat or bad publicity. And I certainly don't think parents appreciate a University President who speaks out of both sides of his mouth:


"The University is an educational institution, which always sets high standards that we hope will be upheld by our students. We hope that our students will all learn from those standards, but at the same time, we believe in second chances so that our students can learn and grow from life's experiences."
------David Broen after the Mixon assault

I can't believe there are so many people defending the guy.

[KantoSooner]

You're right, I find his actions consistent for the reasons laid out in my above post. You disagree.
So far, civil, criminal courts and BoR are siding with the position I lean towards. For whatever that's worth.

[FaninAma]

You're right, I find his actions consistent for the reasons laid out in my above post. You disagree.
So far, civil, criminal courts and BoR are siding with the position I lean towards. For whatever that's worth.

Where have I said the frat idiots don't deserve punishment? I do think Boren should cool his jets and do some detective work to find who was and wasn't involved instead of steamrolling over the lives of several young men who may not have been guilty just to appease a lynch mob. I also think throwing the entire membership of the fraternity out of their housing on 2 days notice was absurd.

The main point we disagree on is how the SAE crushing badass version of David Boren differs from this version of David Boren:

"The University is an educational institution, which always sets high standards that we hope will be upheld by our students. We hope that our students will all learn from those standards, but at the same time, we believe in second chances so that our students can learn and grow from life's experiences."
------David Boren after the Mixon assault

He needs to decide if he is going to be a tough, no leniency type of task master or the fuzzy, forgiving teddy bear he presented himself as in the above statement.

And the football team acting like butt hurt prima-donnas for 4 days is pathetic. The problem is that PC crowd is never ever going to let go of their victim card. Every time an idiot like the frat morons says something stupid then they are going to slap that card on the table to indict all white people and white people supported institutions. It is never going to stop. Never. And it has gotten way past tiresome at this point.

[aurorasooner]

The way I look at it is, suspending a ""quality FB player for a season is like kicking a regular student out of the university for a year.

Most 4 or 5 star highly recruited frosh FB players from half way across the country would probably just pack it up and transfer out, which may have been his thinking with Mixon--he might have been thinking that Joe would just head back to Cali.(I thought he would transfer to some Pac school back in Cali or Fresno/San Diego St) Problem solved to the FB only zealots, "Hey I didn't kick him out of school only kicked him off the FB team for a year. If he wanted to stay he could've". Same with Shannon, probably thought he would just declare for the league instead of coming back.
The DGB situation is the head-scratcher to me. I wouldn't have given this kid the time of day, going only on what I've seen in the press. Boren probably told HCBS that the 1st time this kid sneezes in the wrong direction, he's gone, and HCBS probably owes Boren a big-time marker for that. (don't really know or care).

In any event, I'm more concerned about what Boren may have done to influence our Geology/Geophysics dept with this fracking/Ok-earthquake no-relationship deal (article in Newsweek early last week) than I am about the way he handled any of these FB players or this SAE deal. Don't have the link right now as it's in an admin acct and I'm currently in an LUA.

[KantoSooner]

Fanin, you've now gone over into straw man mode. You imply that I said that you said the frat rats shouldn't be punished. I never said any such thing.
My statements have focused on accusations of inconsistency leveled at Boren. And at his theoretical motives for doing so.
I have no idea whether you are even aware of misconstruing what I wrote much less have any idea of what your motives might be.
To try and turn this into some sort of "station of the cross" for those who somehow feel that white people are being victimized, however, is both contemptible and a delusional misapprehension of events.

[cvsooner]

In any event, I'm more concerned about what Boren may have done to influence our Geology/Geophysics dept with this fracking/Ok-earthquake no-relationship deal (article in Newsweek early last week) than I am about the way he handled any of these FB players or this SAE deal. Don't have the link right now as it's in an admin acct and I'm currently in an LUA.

Hear, hear.

[FaninAma]

Fanin, you've now gone over into straw man mode. You imply that I said that you said the frat rats shouldn't be punished. I never said any such thing.My statements have focused on accusations of inconsistency leveled at Boren. And at his theoretical motives for doing so.I have no idea whether you are even aware of misconstruing what I wrote much less have any idea of what your motives might be.To try and turn this into some sort of "station of the cross" for those who somehow feel that white people are being victimized, however, is both contemptible and a delusional misapprehension of events.

OK Kanto. Set me straight. Do you agree with Boren kicking 100 students out of their living quarters on 36 hours notice without any attempt to ascertain individual involvement? Do you support his hyopcritical pronouncement after Mixon was given a second chance? Do you disagree that PC demagoging on race is damaging race relations and that the problem is exacerbated by "leaders" like Boren who cave under any hint of being called a racist? Do you agree with how the football team has handled this situation and essentially thrown the University under the bus? Do you agree with Eielson that different groups of students at OU should be treated differently based on race and athletic ability?Thanks. I'll hang up and listen off the air.

[graphster]

I'll tell you what's damaging race relations.

Racists. In police departments. In politics. In the labor market. And, on many college campuses, in fraternities.

LOL that "race relations" are problematic because people are making a big deal of horrible racists being horrible racists, and not because the racists are, in fact, horrible people who are running variety of social, economic, and political institutions that oppress people of color.

[graphster]

BTW, Dusty Dvoracek put a dude in the hospital a decade ago, and was involved in a number of violent incidents prior to that. Was kicked off the team for a year, then reinstated. Now works as a member of the media covering the program.

[KantoSooner]

Well Fanin, Boren has, so far, followed procedure. And no, marking a racist outburst is not throwing anyone, except the racists, under anything. I'm truly sorry that this entire affair has made you so angry. You used to be good hearted if, in my opinion, not in complete command of things you'd read. On this one, however, you're lining up with brain dead evil. And, imho, stretching and hauling to try and figure out a way to explain a way out.

[FaninAma]

Well Fanin, Boren has, so far, followed procedure. And no, marking a racist outburst is not throwing anyone, except the racists, under anything. I'm truly sorry that this entire affair has made you so angry. You used to be good hearted if, in my opinion, not in complete command of things you'd read. On this one, however, you're lining up with brain dead evil. And, imho, stretching and hauling to try and figure out a way to explain a way out.

Your opinion. I disagree and so do a lot of other reasonable OU supporters. The reason I am so worked up about this is because Boren is clearly being two-faced about the incidents because he is being a PC politician and not a leader. I assume you are ok with that but as the father of 2 daughters who attended OU along with a lot of my money I expect much better from the President.

[FaninAma]

I'll tell you what's damaging race relations.

Racists. In police departments. In politics. In the labor market. And, on many college campuses, in fraternities.

LOL that "race relations" are problematic because people are making a big deal of horrible racists being horrible racists, and not because the racists are, in fact, horrible people who are running variety of social, economic, and political institutions that oppress people of color.

Yeah, lets go shoot those racist police officers. Lets make all of the unoffical thought police official government employees and license them to ferret out all racist sentiment and thought no matter how innoccuous it is. And by all means, lets blame everything bad that is going on with the black community on racism because god knows they can't over come any obstacles by themselves and they have no access to public schools and government assistance for education and training programs like the rest of us. Those poor, poor helpless blacks. Racism is the only reason they have 80% of their newborns born to single mothers and why the crime rate among black males is 5 x that of the general population.

Weeping Mother of Jesus! Give me a break!