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  1. #61
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member jkm, the stolen pifwafwi's Avatar
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by stoops the eternal pimp View Post
    -1.
    pfft, you know his linebacker recruiting was the suck

  2. #62
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    I knew that but I knew we would struggle to get the horses to play M2M.
    Bazinga

  3. #63

    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    I hope I don't repeat something that someone else already posted if so, my apologies up front! - I don't think it's a question of recruiting talent, I think it all falls under the umbrella of QB development - vs - game scheming. What do I mean? JH was a good college QB, it wasn't great, nor did he perform at the next level (injuries had an impact on that) but he worked within the scheme that the current OC (Mike Leach) developed based on JH's skillset. He didn't develop JH to work within his scheme. I tend to believe that such is not the case now with JH as the play caller and QB's coach. I think instead he has developed an annual scheme ( not game by game) and he is trying to get his QB's to fit within that scheme. Instead he needs to develop their skills and then game plan around those skills. I think the same could be said for the defense, per another post, we have a very good front 4, but we don't run a 4 -2 - 5 defense, instead we were stuck with a 3-4 and we didn't use talent the way we should have. I blame both Coordinators, and as much as I hate to say it, Bob needs to put his size 10.5 up someones six, and get them to figure things out. Coach up first to talent and then scheme to that talent, figure out how best to use it against the teams you are playing. If you can't do that, pack your friggin bags and get out of Norman.

  4. #64
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    No, I was just challenging your statement that there was no excuse for 1 particular performance. I watched that game and remember it well. It's easy to pull stats and use the caps lock key to say FIVE INTERCEPTIONS. The truth is, the NU defense overpowered our entire offense - our O-line could not block Suh and Crick. We had an inexperienced and not very good O-line that was also riddled with injuries and shuffled game to game. One OL guy broke his foot in that game on top of that. One of LJ's interceptions was on 4th down with no time and no one open and another was in desperation with 40 seconds left in the game. The first pick was the one that had us howling on this board for PI and that is the one they got their TD on. Our kicker missed 2 40-45 yard FGs and had a third one blocked. It was that type of game where every yard was contested.

    I'm just saying there is little to compare between LJ and CT other than they are RS FR backups pressed into duty. We put the team on LJ's shoulders as a pass-first offense with a green O-line and he did okay considering. We put CT behind an experienced Oline and mostly asked him to handoff while playing the 3 bottom dwellers of the conference. When we did ask him to pass, he did not fair well at all.
    That was the entire point of the comparison.

  5. #65
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eielson View Post
    That was the entire point of the comparison.
    Well, you were not very clear. You seemed to be saying that if terrible LJ can turn out okay, then terrible CT can too.

  6. #66
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    Well, you were not very clear. You seemed to be saying that if terrible LJ can turn out okay, then terrible CT can too.
    Essentially, yes. Landry improved a lot, and make whatever justifications you want about 5 interceptions, but that's not something that would have happened later in his career.

  7. #67
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eielson View Post
    Essentially, yes. Landry improved a lot, and make whatever justifications you want about 5 interceptions, but that's not something that would have happened later in his career.
    Then you were clear and I still disagree with you. Those 5 INTs were really 3. NU was going to get the ball on that 4th down no matter what be it sack, throw away or INT. The throw with 40 seconds left and down 7 points was a hail mary that had to be thrown into coverage. And just ask anyone on this board if LJ would have thrown 3 INTs under pressure later in his career. He turned the ball over several times in the '11 OSU game due to pressure and it still wasn't as much pressure as NU applied. But he certainly did improve in many other areas after '09. But CT situation is completely different. He wasn't the center of the offense left to sink or swim - he was just a fill in to complete a dreadful season. I don't think his experience this year will actually make much difference in his future - development will have to come from elsewhere.

  8. #68
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post
    There are multiple reasons that you give receivers big cushions, not just so they won't get past you. One of the primary ones is to give you more time to diagnose run/pass.
    Never said it was to just not let receivers get past...I said it was to play conservatively, i.e. can't gamble with our corners. Whether it be covering the deep ball or reading run/pass, they perpetually gave big cushions to receivers regardless of down & distance.
    Last edited by ddub0224; 12/9/2014 at 02:17 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    I don't put the TCU or KSU loss on the offense. The Baylor and maybe the OSU loss can be put on the entire team. And the OSU game came down to lapses in the special teams and on the defense.

    We have had some 3 and outs, but it's not been a major issue in most games. As much as we rotate guys in on defense (more than just about any year I can remember), there were very few games where the defense was too tired to finish. We run less plays than we have in past years, and the defenses of those years had better production.
    KSU we threw a pick six, and an interception in our end zone. You want to put all the missed field goals & the extra point on the special teams then they can share the blame. To me that's offense. But I will admit that was one of the few games where the offense tried to keep them in the game. The other losses....
    Baylor was the whole team but how many points did we score in Q2, Q3, and Q4?....0
    TCU how many points did we score in the second half?....9
    OSU how many points did we score in the second half and OT?....7
    Unless you're playing in the old SEC (yes, sarcasm) you aren't gonna win games without one of the best defenses in the country with that kind of offensive production.

  10. #70
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member jkm, the stolen pifwafwi's Avatar
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ddub0224 View Post
    Never said it was to just not let receivers get past...I said it was to play conservatively, i.e. can't gamble with our corners. Whether it be covering the deep ball or reading run/pass, they perpetually gave big cushions to receivers regardless of down & distance.
    Lets start over here and talk about our corners.

    In a typical good defense, corners very rarely make tackles on running plays. This is because they typically have the "safety" role of filling the hole between the containing DE and the sidelines. They should rarely make the tackle because the same side linebacker should "shoot the gap" and make the tackle before they get to the corner. The less they have to worry about filling for the run, the more they can change to a "pass first, run second" mentality. This is especially true in M2M situations where they may have to turn their back and run with the WR. If they aren't worried about the run, they can concentrate wholly on pressing the WR like we did last year.

    The problem we are experiencing is that our DEs can't extend plays to the sidelines and our linebackers aren't fast enough to make a play at the LOS on the edge. The only defensive solution here is to have the corners create an edge that funnels the run back to the incoming linebacker. Thus they get into a "run first, pass second" mentality which requires time to diagnose. Since the WR is your secondary responsibility, you end up trying to "cheat" by looking into the backfield and guessing what is going on.

    Since I have to watch Seattle play every weekend due to my wife, they experienced a very similar situation earlier in the season. They couldn't stop the run and had to commit more guys to stop it. Once they did that, their core cover 3 scheme broke down and allowed for teams to exploit all sorts of areas. Now that they have some guys back, they are once again stopping the run with their front 5-6 and their defense has looked pretty close to what it did last year.

    It is just the nature of some of these complex schemes - there isn't a lot of flex in assignments without totally exposing areas where you are decently strong.

  11. #71
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post
    Can you accept that after 30 years of playing basketball that Shaquille O'Neal couldn't hit a free throw?
    Can you accept that after 20 years of pitching a baseball that a pitcher could still walk in the winning run?

    It takes time for a QB to slow down the game enough to read the mess of crap that happens past the LOS. How much time is dependent on the QB. Some guys take 1 year, some take 4 years.
    I don't expect perfection from any athlete or coach, regardless of professional status. I absolutely understand the presence of a learning curve (as well as individual/practical limitations, in the case of your simplistic analogies). I didn't say I expect young players to be world beaters or championship caliber. But when we have a roughly 0% chance at completing a pass downfield...against the 111th best passing defense (even after playing us)...using players with 1 or 2 seasons and 1 or 2 springs under their belt (again, these are highly-regarded recruits)...in a home game...I just can't lay that ineptitude at the feet of the players (like the thread title).

  12. #72
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    I agree with UteSooner that if we wanted to run a completely different offense, then we should hire an OC that has successfully run that offense. Don't just send JH to read-option 101 and hope he learns on the fly. Personally, I don't want a read-option/QB run oriented offense. I want stud RBs who can run the ball and a big armed QB that can make all the throws. If the QB has wheels and can make himself hard to sack, that's a big bonus. But if we must go with an option run game, hire an expert.
    I'm in agreement with this. I don't want a read-option QB either. You can stress a defense enough by having a guy who can run for a first down a few times when everything breaks down.

    I just don't want another Landry Jones who can't get a few yards when things break down - unless he is just a stud QB.

  13. #73
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member jkm, the stolen pifwafwi's Avatar
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by UteSooner View Post
    I don't expect perfection from any athlete or coach, regardless of professional status. I absolutely understand the presence of a learning curve (as well as individual/practical limitations, in the case of your simplistic analogies). I didn't say I expect young players to be world beaters or championship caliber. But when we have a roughly 0% chance at completing a pass downfield...against the 111th best passing defense (even after playing us)...using players with 1 or 2 seasons and 1 or 2 springs under their belt (again, these are highly-regarded recruits)...in a home game...I just can't lay that ineptitude at the feet of the players (like the thread title).
    I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

    1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
    2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
    3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?

  14. #74
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    The big problem here, and the frustrating part, is that outside of the Baylor game, we were competitive and held leads in all the three losses well into the fourth quarter--and then for whatever reasons, weren't able to finish them off. That's the sign of a young, inexperienced team learning on the job.

    And I'm also convinced that some of the frustration from the coaches is chunks of this stuff that's going wrong is stuff they've either covered ad nauseam in practice, but improvements don't happen, or improvements are really slow in coming, or seemed so obvious that they should never have to talk about it.

    (Example: a senior punter--admittedly from a juco, but still--in his final punt at Owen Field doesn't kick away from one of the most dangerous returners in college ball. How does THAT happen? Forget the thought that it's probably not the best decision by the coaching staff or head coach or special teams coach or whoever said, "let's do that," but I cannot believe the punter didn't have a better idea than to not kick it towards Hill?)

    If our only loss was Baylor, we'd probably have been on the outside looking into the playoffs, due to a big loss at home. To Baylor. In a conference that plays one game less than the champs of other conferences.

    Well, lots to mull over in the offseason, for everybody.

  15. #75
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    One thing that would do wonders for Thomas is that none of these guys that are currently playing WR would be good enough to get out there next year.

  16. #76
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post

    3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?
    The Oklahoman has some stats today about receivers noting that Shepard caught 50 passes and he's out, and Neal caught 40. After that, nobody has more than 19, I think it was. That's a bit more than a pass per game? Blake Bell with 15 catches was the fifth leading receiver. Just about everybody else in the league top three receivers average about 40 catches each...now how much of that is we're running more and throwing less, or so-so passing, or just lousy receiving. It's been painful to watch our receivers this year, who admittedly are doing a fair job of blocking, but route-running is not crisp and when they get open can't seem to catch the ball. Oooof.

  17. #77
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post
    I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

    1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
    2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
    3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?
    I thought since Thomas was on football scholarship, that football *always* takes precedence over baseball. And that includes football practice outside of the season. Is that incorrect?

  18. #78
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    I think Thomas has a lot of upside.......
    Hey... maybe T BOONE can pony up and start a Stilleater newspaper... but the players would probably just use it to roll the weed.

  19. #79
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post
    I don't mind discussing this, but you are going to have to toss out the hyperbole.

    1. We had at least 1 huge downfield pass play on Saturday, so that is higher than 0%
    2. Thomas is a RS FR who played baseball in the spring. He doesn't have 1 or 2 springs under his belt, more like 25%.
    3. All FR are 1 route then dump guys. Do you know how hard it is to complete a pass to that 1 route when they can't get open?
    OK but I think you might have introduced hyperbole when you said that Shaq couldn't hit a free throw. He clearly averaged around 50% his entire career

    1. Yes, I do remember a long pass to Bell? My point is that I don't expect completions on passing downs.
    2. I was under the impression that he was able to attend spring practice. If he had to miss it, then they shouldn't allow him to play both sports. Especially as a QB.
    3. Probably pretty hard. I know I could never do it.

    What is your position? That we are getting all we can expect and that the coaches and players are performing at the highest possible level given their age/experience? You seem unhappy with my defense of the players and my blaming the coaching/development. I'll admit my posts can have a tone that might rub some the wrong way and invite argument for argument's sake.
    Last edited by UteSooner; 12/10/2014 at 12:07 AM. Reason: included duplicate quote

  20. #80
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    Re: Not division 1 quarterbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    I thought since Thomas was on football scholarship, that football *always* takes precedence over baseball. And that includes football practice outside of the season. Is that incorrect?
    I just found an old article from newsok stating that's the case. I don't think he enrolled early so he's been through 2 seasons and 1 spring.

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