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  1. #81
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    One thing that is true in the situation is that execution is critical because there is no safe play. That's why coaches choose to try to punt deep instead of attempting a long field goal and it worked out for KSU in this case. I've seen just about every play tried from down there result in disaster. Things get rushed and the defense plays aggressive changing normal risk equation.

    - QB sneak - QB fumbles the snap
    - RB dive play - TFL for safety, fumbled handoff
    - pitch play - TFL for safety
    - Out route - need I say it?
    - Any passing play - holding in end zone for safety
    - Any option play - wrong decision, bad things

    Conclusion: don't get pinned deep. Corollary: pinned the other guy deep

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    The safety did not commit to the run. He had his eyes on Knight the whole time, he had already made a step toward the receiver before Knight even let the ball go.
    We'll agree to disagree. The safety definitely commits inside, and there's no way he was going to recover in time to help the corner. The corner jumped the route on his own, and it paid off.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    One thing that is true in the situation is that execution is critical because there is no safe play. That's why coaches choose to try to punt deep instead of attempting a long field goal and it worked out for KSU in this case. I've seen just about every play tried from down there result in disaster. Things get rushed and the defense plays aggressive changing normal risk equation.

    - QB sneak - QB fumbles the snap
    - RB dive play - TFL for safety, fumbled handoff
    - pitch play - TFL for safety
    - Out route - need I say it?
    - Any passing play - holding in end zone for safety
    - Any option play - wrong decision, bad things

    Conclusion: don't get pinned deep. Corollary: pinned the other guy deep
    Yep, that pretty much sums it up. The best play is to not be in that situation.

    Speaking of punts, I've noticed we rarely block anyone on the punt. I don't mean the gunners, I mean anyone. It looks like we play punt safe 99% of the time. I don't know if Stoops is that worried about a fake punt, or worried about another punt off the leg of our own guys, but it's rare that we a) go after a kick, or b) set up a punt return.

  4. #84
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Jason White's Third Knee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ashley View Post
    The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.
    Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?
    Right. But it only would have worked had a different route been run. That's all I'm saying. If we are judging one play only, no way do I call or throw an out. I don't know which guy called it. I reserve the right to boo that call.


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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    Yep, that pretty much sums it up. The best play is to not be in that situation.

    Speaking of punts, I've noticed we rarely block anyone on the punt. I don't mean the gunners, I mean anyone. It looks like we play punt safe 99% of the time. I don't know if Stoops is that worried about a fake punt, or worried about another punt off the leg of our own guys, but it's rare that we a) go after a kick, or b) set up a punt return.
    It would help if we had a punt returner. Apparently we don't.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason White's Third Knee View Post
    Right. But it only would have worked had a different route been run. That's all I'm saying. If we are judging one play only, no way do I call or throw an out. I don't know which guy called it. I reserve the right to boo that call.


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    You, my friend, reserve the right to boo any call you don't like.

    Seriously though, the fact that the route in question was one of several options should at least lower your frustration. I've see out routes thrown in that situation that worked fine. I'm not going to argue that there were less risky plays that could have been called, because there were. I just don't think Heupel should get the blame when a player makes a mistake/fails to execute.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by cvsooner View Post
    It would help if we had a punt returner. Apparently we don't.
    I hate the idea of Shepard being our returner. Every time the opposing kicker punts the ball, I hope for a) a kick out of bounds, or b) a fair catch. As pivotal as Shep is to our offense...(I'll leave the end of that sentence unsaid, but I think you know what I'm saying).

  8. #88
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    The only good thing about this loss before a bye week is that we have another full week to analyze this play.

    I think it was a good call.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    Knight didn't read anything. He immediately turned to his left, looked straight at Neal, and threw the ball.

    McDaniel knew he had deep help, stepped in front of the pass, and scored the easiest touchdown in his life.

    The only thing that surprises me is that McDaniel didn't drop the ball out of pure shock alone.
    I'm in total agreement with TDTW. TK didn't appear to read anything. The corner didn't appear to commit inside. It looks like he may have not thought Neal was going to curl out but he didn't have to recover much because the 70 yard lateral pass to the outside shoulder gave him plenty of time to make the easy pick on a difficult as well as poor pass. Either way you chop it, absolutely horrendous call from the 1 yard line. Maybe if we'd been on the left hash and maybe not a 2 yard out. That's why you see teams run from there. You may not get a first down but hopefully you get a little room to punt and live another day. Even a pump fake and throw it downfield. At least you're going vertical with less negatives. Catch for a first down. Overthrown or OB. Maybe even take it for 6. Even an INT downfield is better than what happened. And under those circumstances I'd say the probability of the same result is fairly high. And I place that entirely on whoever called that play. Any boob off the street can call wrong plays at the wrong time. These guys are well payed professional coaches and are supposed to and should know what they're doing. To me, it's inexcusable.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I'm in total agreement with TDTW. TK didn't appear to read anything. The corner didn't appear to commit inside. It looks like he may have not thought Neal was going to curl out but he didn't have to recover much because the 70 yard lateral pass to the outside shoulder gave him plenty of time to make the easy pick on a difficult as well as poor pass. Either way you chop it, absolutely horrendous call from the 1 yard line. Maybe if we'd been on the left hash and maybe not a 2 yard out. That's why you see teams run from there. You may not get a first down but hopefully you get a little room to punt and live another day. Even a pump fake and throw it downfield. At least you're going vertical with less negatives. Catch for a first down. Overthrown or OB. Maybe even take it for 6. Even an INT downfield is better than what happened. And under those circumstances I'd say the probability of the same result is fairly high. And I place that entirely on whoever called that play. Any boob off the street can call wrong plays at the wrong time. These guys are well payed professional coaches and are supposed to and should know what they're doing. To me, it's inexcusable.
    No, TK didn't read anything (I think I mentioned that in my original post, but if not, I did in one of the many in this thread). He had made his decision before the snap ever happened.

    I wasn't saying the corner committed inside, he didn't. The corner was going to press the route the whole time (he just did a good job selling soft coverage before the snap). It's the safety that commits inside. It's not drastic, he doesn't spin down early or anything, but as soon as the ball is snapped, he sort of freezes, and shifts a little inside. It was enough that had a go route been called, he would never have been able to recover to help on that side.

    This mistake started when Knight predetermined his target. The play calls for him to read the defense before making a decision, he never did that. At that point, it's not the call that's bad, it's the execution.

    There are plenty of plays throughout the season that one could look at and say "that was just a terrible play call". For the life of me, I don't know how people can put this one on Heupel.

    Let me be clear, I'm not trying to defend JH. Everyone's entitled to their opinion of him, but when I first started reading comments blaming him for this call, my first thought was "people must not understand what the play call was", or "people think the play call was just an out route for Neal". There's a lot more going on here than just an out route.

    If TK had handed the ball off to Perine on a dive, and when Perine got the ball he made the decision to take it wide and he got stuffed for a safety, would it be a bad play call? No, it would be bad execution. There's little difference between the two.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.
    You're concentrating on the minutiae when you must look at the situation holistically. It was a fine play call in that context.

  13. #93
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Jason White's Third Knee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Sorry. We'll agree to disagree. One of the most worstest play calls i can remember. I don't want an average, vanilla, limited play caller. I want someone who can quickly assess the flow of the game, the current situation, assess probabilities, adapt to changes, and know the ability of his personnel to execute given plays. I want a chess master, not a checkers novice. That play appeared to have been pulled from the bowels of a novice. "Well, gee... we're on the 1..... well... I remember seeing this team one time throw a quick out that totally fooled the other team. Ya! I'll try that!" ... that's what I envision when I see that play. That was NEVER going to be a quick anything. If Perrine had run 3 times up the gut in that situation it would have been understandable. That's why you see it so often. Good coaches try to limit the mistakes and play the odds. Play sound football. Protect the football. Play for field position. Pretty basic understanding. Don't make mistakes. 3 times up the gut on your opponents 1 with them stacking the line is poor play calling but not when you're on your 1. Again.... right hash, 1 yard line, difficult long throw, poor execution, high risk. Yes, it's easy to call that as a mistake afterwards but the problem is whoever made the call should have had the knowledge and experience to know that wasn't a good choice. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of much more qualified people than me that would agree.
    You're concentrating on the minutiae when you must look at the situation holistically. It was a fine play call in that context.

    I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason White's Third Knee View Post
    I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.
    Me too. That option shouldn't have been given. The OC shouldn't put the players in that position to make a decision which is a horrible play. I don't fault the player as much as the OC.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason White's Third Knee View Post
    I just can't understand why anyone would think that the out is a good idea in that situation. Sure, it was an option and should have been read, but the route is so dangerous given the hash, field position and so forth. I will need therapy before I say that the route should have been a part of this play.
    Quote Originally Posted by aero
    Me too. That option shouldn't have been given. The OC shouldn't put the players in that position to make a decision which is a horrible play. I don't fault the player as much as the OC.


    Okay, I watched very closely today, to see when the out route (by itself) was run (in the NFL). More specifically, from the 5 yard line and in...I counted 5 separate times that the offense ran a route tree that consisted of an out route to the opposite side of the field. All but one of those went for positive gains (including one from the endzone). Only one was incomplete.

    Conversely, in two separate games, the out route was run at mid-field, and on two occasions was returned for touchdowns. (Jacksonville was one, I can't remember the other).

    The point is the play is run at the NFL level, by seasoned NFL coordinators. If it's just a "trick" or "gee, let's try this" kind of play, someone should tell those coaches.

    It was a bad play by Knight that caused the pick 6. So, I'll ask this: had Knight handed the ball instead of throwing, and Perine gets hit and fumbles, and KSU recovers for a TD, is that a "bad call" too? Seriously, I guess I don't see how the OC (of any team) can be at fault for a player's failure to execute.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Good play if you have an NFL QB on your roster

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Pointless arguing about it. Some think it was a super-duper, Bill Walsh-like genius play. Myself and others think otherwise. I really could care less at this point because while we're talking about this one play, in actuality (IMO), it's just indicative of some of the anemic play calling that's been going on for a while now. I thought this team actually had a chance to compete for a title this year but once again NOT. And it really seems we might even have the players. I'm thinking it's the coaching staff that is the problem. And I'm sure there are plenty here that think this staff is NFL caliber. That's their right. This years toast already. I'm over it. I'll always pull for OU but I'm not falling for the hype anymore. We'll change players but I'm not thinking the results are going to be different.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    [/COLOR]
    It was a bad play by Knight that caused the pick 6. So, I'll ask this: had Knight handed the ball instead of throwing, and Perine gets hit and fumbles, and KSU recovers for a TD, is that a "bad call" too? Seriously, I guess I don't see how the OC (of any team) can be at fault for a player's failure to execute.[/COLOR]
    You're comparing 2 totally separate things. A fumble isn't a called play. I didn't see where TK made that bad of a throw. Tell me how he could have thrown it better and caused a different outcome? So where was TK's error? In his read? In the fact he immediately turned and threw? I'd say yes to both. And I'd say from the right hash, on the 1 yard line, with TK's arm, the OC shouldn't have given him that option. You have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing will ever convince me that wasn't a terrible call.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Pointless arguing about it. Some think it was a super-duper, Bill Walsh-like genius play. Myself and others think otherwise. I really could care less at this point because while we're talking about this one play, in actuality (IMO), it's just indicative of some of the anemic play calling that's been going on for a while now. I thought this team actually had a chance to compete for a title this year but once again NOT. And it really seems we might even have the players. I'm thinking it's the coaching staff that is the problem. And I'm sure there are plenty here that think this staff is NFL caliber. That's their right. This years toast already. I'm over it. I'll always pull for OU but I'm not falling for the hype anymore. We'll change players but I'm not thinking the results are going to be different.
    Yeah, I agree...damn bye-week.

    This team is kind of at a make or break point. Making the playoffs is almost out of the question, the conference title is realistic, but not by much. If this team want's to finish the season, proving they are anywhere near as good as we all thought, then it starts this week with ISU.

    The two loses (both should have and could have been wins) were by 5 point, to two teams that look to be rolling through the rest of their competition. I'm not ready to throw the towel in (not that I ever do), but it's time to start making a statement if they want to accomplish any of their goals.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Yes, I hate bye weeks. Oh well, I'm getting over it but dayum, I sure had high hopes this year. And it's even tougher knowing we could easily still be undefeated. I feel like we should have won the 2 we lost. But then again we somehow got a win over UT when that was probably our worst game. I just find myself saying dammit everytime I think about my team since that TCU game.

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