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  1. #1
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    Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    I've read several comments (here and elsewhere) that this particular play (the pick 6 TK threw to KSU) was a "Bad/Horrible" play-call by Heupel. I just want to set the record straight: IT WAS NOT A BAD PLAY CALL. It was bad execution.

    First, let's look at the play called:

    It's a QB run/pass read option play. Trevor has three options on this play:

    1. Keep the ball - This would be the last option on the play, depending on what he reads.
    2. Hand the ball off - This would be his second option, based on what he's reading after the snap.
    3. Throw the ball - Even though I listed it as his 3rd option, it's equivalent to his first/second option, again, all based on what he's reading.

    On the play in question, TK reads pass pre-snap based on how the defense is aligned. He still has the option to read run, but it's a split second read right after the snap. It appears he had made the pre-snap read and decided to throw. I don't know if that was the correct read, but the execution was the error.

    If the KSU safety stays high and the CB plays soft, the throw would have gone for 5 yards and we'd be looking at 2nd and 5 from about the 5. If the safety stays inside and the CB misplays the route, it's a 99 yard TD and we're all happy. Neither of those things happened. The safety looks inside (thinking run), and the CB jumps the route immediately. Before the ball is out of TK's hand, the CB is on the route. Since TK made the decision to go to Neal (and it appears he made that decision pre-snap, based on where the CB was aligned), it was over before it started. The CB played very aggressive and was rewarded with a pick 6.

    Had TK taken a second to progress through his reads, he would have seen the CB jump and either run the ball himself, hit Neal (on the out and up) for a long TD or hit Shepard for an easy out. TK knew he made a mistake the second he released the ball. He just has to learn not to throw that ball in that situation.

    Now, onto the play call:

    First, simply calling a 5 yard out is not a "bad" play call from the end zone. Most corners are going to play soft in that situation (just as the corner opposite did on that play). Regardless, the play gives TK the option to pass OR run (either himself or the RB). The fact that we've had success with that same play call this year (including that game) makes it a logical call.

    This particular call was not a "Bad/Horrible" play call. If you want to see a bad play call from that game, it was the Neal reverse pass. Not this one.

  2. #2
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    I will counter with knowing his level of experience at this point it's a play with more risk than reward and shouldn't have been called. Yes, Trevor made the wrong read, and the KSU player made a great play on it. That's what Snyder teams do: they force you into mistakes and then capitalize on them.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by cvsooner View Post
    I will counter with knowing his level of experience at this point it's a play with more risk than reward and shouldn't have been called. Yes, Trevor made the wrong read, and the KSU player made a great play on it. That's what Snyder teams do: they force you into mistakes and then capitalize on them.
    The point would be valid if he had never run that play, or only seen it in practice. We've run that play a lot this year, including multiple times in that game.

    That play was not a bad call. If you (not you specifically) are looking for a reason to call Heupel out, then every play that doesn't work is bad. In this case, the call was fine. The outcome is completely in the execution.

    Trevor's got enough experience, and is smart enough to run that play correctly (as he has done in every game this year). He just made a mistake, it happens to even the most veteran players.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    The KSU player didn't make a "great play" he saw TK's eyes and knew it was coming. If TK had just pump faked once, it would have been an easy over the top throw for as far as Neal could have outrun the defenders(TD). As it was, TK stared down his receiver and that's all she wrote.
    I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    The KSU player didn't make a "great play" he saw TK's eyes and knew it was coming. If TK had just pump faked once, it would have been an easy over the top throw for as far as Neal could have outrun the defenders(TD). As it was, TK stared down his receiver and that's all she wrote.
    The corner jumped immediately (he was already pressing at the snap), so as soon as TK let the ball go his (the corner) eye's probably lit up like it was Christmas morning. You're right, a pump fake and it's over.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    That throw was on Trevor. But I'm pretty sure QB development falls under Heupel's responsibilities.
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    8x, you are a loyal fan and you give all of us great insight and info on this board. I just feel like there are 10 other plays that wouldn't have resulted in a pick. With the cb pressing doesn't the play seem even more I'll-advised? I mean , a 30 yard pass across the field with a cb salivating at the prospect of jumping the route? You know way more than me so if I'm off base, fill me in.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    All a matter of opinion. I didn't like the risk/reward on that play - reward was only a 5 yard gain. You could argue an out and up could have been a huge gainer, but no one said an out and up was an option. I don't think the call was as awful as many have suggested as people are influenced by the outcome. Had it worked for 5 yards, no one would have thought twice about it.

    I didn't have too much heartburn over the Neal reverse/pass. If it had worked for a TD, it would have been hailed a great call not just for the outcome, but for showing our willingness to gamble. My only gripe is I thought we were too close-in around the 20 yard line. Had we been at the 30 or farther I would have had no issues at all. The player that intercepted the ball was fooled and only drifted back late. Had the line of scrimmage been the 30 and the target still in the end zone, no way he gets there. But again it was execution as Neal was surprised how quickly the DE got on him and he threw off balance and got nothing on the throw. Have to give credit to the KSU guy for staying home.

    So the play calling that killed me was Perine up the middle on our last drive. Not necessarily the 3rd down call, but the fact we did it 3 times in a row. By then, it was crystal clear that KSU was going to do everything in their power to take away Perine between the tackles. And they were almost conceding we could score in other ways. JY outlined it perfectly over on TFB in his "What it boiled down to.." entry. He speculated that Snyder wanted either a goal-line stand or he wanted us to quickly so he had time left to counter. Makes sense. He also speculated we insisted on running because we wanted to burn clock. That one I don't buy because there was too much time left to worry about that. If our line had been dominating theirs all day, I would have understood the sequence. But it hadn't; in fact, they had held Perine to lots of very short carries during the game when they had their normal defense on the field, let alone the 8/9 in the box on the goal line. Take what the defense gives applies even on the goal line.

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member birddog's Avatar
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    What is tfb again? Am I asking a question the equivalent of "why do they call him AD"?
    Last edited by birddog; 10/21/2014 at 08:41 PM.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by birddog View Post
    What is tfb again? Am I asking a question the equivalent to "why do they call him AD"?
    TheFootballBrainiacs.com

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    So if I'm hearing the reads right, the time the ball took to be snapped to TK is the time the cb jumped up to the line. This is the weakness of always being in the shotgun. With the QB under center he can be making reads like that. In the shotgun his attention is diverted to handling the snap. Under center, pre-snap reads aren't as essential.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Now we know how the Corn fans felt when we picked their pocket for 6 deep in their own end in Norman and we went on to a record 1st quarter.

    There's no justifying an offensive staff that calls that play deep in our own territory w/o coaching-up the QB to not throw it if the defender is right there.
    If our QB threw it anyway after being coached-up to not do it under those conditions, then he should've been on the pine a minimum of 1 series to think about it before we put him back in. I don't give a damn if the QB is AA and the BU is a pimple faced frosh and it forces us to run 3 up the middle for no gain, that is just not acceptable.
    Reeks of sub-par coaching and/or lack of discipline, imo.
    Also, I could see it and excuse it if it was some type of great play by the defender, but defensive back just looked up and it was an easy gift 6.
    The TCU pick 6 was different, in that it was a very very good stretch and catch play by their defender.


    I guess on the bright side, it was a perfect strike, not high and not a gopher killer.
    Last edited by aurorasooner; 10/21/2014 at 11:38 PM.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Holy Horse Poop
    If it had worked we we all be praising Josh and Trevor
    **** me . They did good!
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Here is why the play-call was bad:

    On the play before, as per usual, the play was late in terms of getting called in and as per usual, the coaching staff had to call a time-out. As the whistle blew, Knight received the snap and immediately turned toward the receiver he was going to throw to including being in the throwing motion before hanging into the ball since the whistle blew.

    After the time-out, OU is in the exact same formation with the same snap count. So soon as the ball was snapped, once again, Knight turned his head towards Neal this time and the corner jumped the route, which resulted in a pick six.

    What OU should have done is the same thing they did two previous times successfully this season when very deep in their own territory (i.e. near the goal line) and go deep. KSU's defense was playing in tight expecting either a short pass or a run play, which is typical in the scenario, so a big play down field was there to be made.

    Knight needed to be smarter there, but given the scenario that happened prior to this play, the end result was definitely on Josh Heupel.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    This is one reason The Steelers QB coach said he had never seen a player more setup for failure by his coaches than Landry Jones..

    I still have to say the call was bad in that position on the field.. I don't blame Heupel or Knight though, I blame the PC process that they have. too many people involved.
    Last edited by stoops the eternal pimp; 10/22/2014 at 10:45 AM.
    Bazinga

  16. #16

    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    That is where it is Heupel's fault. You don't give your QB who is completing 56% of his passes on the year the option TO throw that pass imo.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsoncrusader View Post
    Here is why the play-call was bad:

    On the play before, as per usual, the play was late in terms of getting called in and as per usual, the coaching staff had to call a time-out. As the whistle blew, Knight received the snap and immediately turned toward the receiver he was going to throw to including being in the throwing motion before hanging into the ball since the whistle blew.

    After the time-out, OU is in the exact same formation with the same snap count. So soon as the ball was snapped, once again, Knight turned his head towards Neal this time and the corner jumped the route, which resulted in a pick six.

    What OU should have done is the same thing they did two previous times successfully this season when very deep in their own territory (i.e. near the goal line) and go deep. KSU's defense was playing in tight expecting either a short pass or a run play, which is typical in the scenario, so a big play down field was there to be made.

    Knight needed to be smarter there, but given the scenario that happened prior to this play, the end result was definitely on Josh Heupel.
    Which is why I wonder if TK is even being given the option of going through multiple reads/options or if JH is simply telling him where to go with it prior to the play.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by KantoSooner View Post
    Which is why I wonder if TK is even being given the option of going through multiple reads/options or if JH is simply telling him where to go with it prior to the play.
    Agreed, I wonder to. At a surface level, things definitely appear to be pre-determined. I really wish Coach Heupel would get his butt back on the sidelines to get right in the grill of his QB so to speak and teach him on the fly.

    Landry improved from his freshman year to sophomore year (2009 to 2010), but then flat-lined in 2011 and 2012 with 2011 being Coach Heupel's first year as the OC and in the press box. And Knight while having a heck of a game sans that pick six, has not improved significantly since last season when taking this season as a whole.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Not saying that this is what's happening, but one could look at both LJ and TK and diagnose a good bit of their 'bad' play as being the result of being dominated by another person who demanded to make in-game decisions and took away their right to make calls on the spot. The seeming bone-headed failures to 'see' defensive adjustments, the hesitancy, the self-doubt, the failure to take off (on LJ's part), and so forth.
    Now, would an ex-QB, natty winner star, who didn't catch on in the pros perhaps, just maybe, have the ego and the compulsion to exert such control over his pupils?
    There are a lot of other things that would make you want to say 'no'. Things like, WTH would Bob allow such a situation to persist? Why would Norvell?
    But there's something of a 'fit' there between observed fact and the above theory. Enough to make me think about it. Our last two QB's have tended to look a bit like dispirited puppets from time to time.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrimsoncrusader View Post
    Agreed, I wonder to. At a surface level, things definitely appear to be pre-determined. I really wish Coach Heupel would get his butt back on the sidelines to get right in the grill of his QB so to speak and teach him on the fly.

    Landry improved from his freshman year to sophomore year (2009 to 2010), but then flat-lined in 2011 and 2012 with 2011 being Coach Heupel's first year as the OC and in the press box. And Knight while having a heck of a game sans that pick six, has not improved significantly since last season when taking this season as a whole.
    There are so many other factors, it's hard to say for sure. LJ also lost the services of Murray and I think Hanna going from '10 to '11, and it's hard to discount that. Hanna may not have been all world for us, but he was the last TE to have a big role in our offense (and he was good enough to make the NFL). I don't need to say how important DM was.

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