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  1. #61
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by cvsooner View Post
    There are five--yes, five--defenders around Shepard. It would have taken a Brady-esque throw to complete that pass. Neal would have been better off to eat the ball.
    There were guys near the ball once that duck wobbled down, but none were close enough to make a play except the guy that caught it and he was recovering from being fooled. You won't get any argument from me that Neal should not have thrown it. I assume he has a decent arm since he is the one they have used twice on this play, but he wasn't able to display it. It's just an inherent risk in this type of play that things don't go as anticipated or practiced. I'm not even convinced he wasn't trying to throw it away, but should have gone to the sidelines instead of over the endzone. Poop happens.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason White's Third Knee View Post
    You, sir, are drunk.


    I don't think that I am exaggerating when I say that it was the worst play call in the history of sports. A part of me died that day, for that was the day that I learned that there is no God.

    An out route?! Out and up, fly pattern, curl, drag, slant... Anything but an out.

    But that's just my opinion and nobody really gives a **** about that.
    Step into my tree of trust...the trust tree. It'll make you feel better.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerMarkVA View Post
    Think about that. Perine FB, Ford/Ross HB in the 'bone? That's actually pretty awesome to consider.
    No. Perine is better than Ford and Ross combined. If we're talking option fantasies, it would be Perine starting in an I-option attack the way Nebraska won with in the 90s.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    This is why this whole discussion is pointless...

    ...Kansas State had a safety playing over the top on that play. There is no tight end on that side of the field. Didn't Knight see the safety before the snap?

    What did he think the safety standing at the 10 was doing? He was nowhere near the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't blitzing. Unless there was a run fake, he wasn't coming up. Even if Knight had pump faked - and, then, managed to complete the pass - the safety had plenty of angle to tackle Neal, probably at about the 20-25 yard line.

    Three years Knight has been here, and that's his read on that safety in that defense? A safety not creeping up to fake a blitz, or coming into the box to play the run?

    Assuming the K-State cornerback knows the coverage that was called for the play, he knew he'd have safety help; therefore, it wasn't a gamble at all for him to jump the route. He knew help was behind him should there be a pass play.

    Look at the blocking on the play as well. Dimitri Flowers pulls over and take out the K-State end. Had the option been a run, Perine would have only had the safety to beat...assuming Neal also blocks the corner...and, yes, I know that is a lot to assume in Neal's recognition as well.

    Horrible. A damn good block by Flowers, though; blew up the K-State end. Offensive line did a great job there. But, Knight had the play screwed up from the pre-snap read of the defense.



    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11720595
    Last edited by Tear Down This Wall; 10/23/2014 at 01:21 PM.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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  5. #65
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by stoops the eternal pimp View Post
    Every pass play Norvell is involved..According to the former player.

    And also, Bob is involved in offensive play calling a lot more than many would believe.
    This is what I have been thinking for years.
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    No. Perine is better than Ford and Ross combined. If we're talking option fantasies, it would be Perine starting in an I-option attack the way Nebraska won with in the 90s.
    This is hilarious.
    Bazinga

  7. #67

    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    Watching this play I've got to believe had we run Neal on an Out/Up route down the sidelines this would've been a 97 yard TD. The KSU Safety #22 was 10-15 yards inside where Neal would've caught the ball. The Corner who jumped the route had no chance had TK even hinted at a pump fake. Of course if TK would've faked a run and then hit Neal streaking down the sidelines it would've been another homerun play. Oh well... live and learn I hope.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    This is why this whole discussion is pointless...

    ...Kansas State had a safety playing over the top on that play. There is no tight end on that side of the field. Didn't Knight see the safety before the snap?

    What did he think the safety standing at the 10 was doing? He was nowhere near the line of scrimmage, so he wasn't blitzing. Unless there was a run fake, he wasn't coming up. Even if Knight had pump faked - and, then, managed to complete the pass - the safety had plenty of angle to tackle Neal, probably at about the 20-25 yard line.

    Three years Knight has been here, and that's his read on that safety in that defense? A safety not creeping up to fake a blitz, or coming into the box to play the run?

    Assuming the K-State cornerback knows the coverage that was called for the play, he knew he'd have safety help; therefore, it wasn't a gamble at all for him to jump the route. He knew help was behind him should there be a pass play.

    Look at the blocking on the play as well. Dimitri Flowers pulls over and take out the K-State end. Had the option been a run, Perine would have only had the safety to beat...assuming Neal also blocks the corner...and, yes, I know that is a lot to assume in Neal's recognition as well.

    Horrible. A damn good block by Flowers, though; blew up the K-State end. Offensive line did a great job there. But, Knight had the play screwed up from the pre-snap read of the defense.



    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11720595
    No way. The safety committed inside at the snap, there's no way he's recovers and gains 40 yards before Neal releases on the go. The safety was playing the run almost from the start, he was not in the box pre-snap because Snyder wanted to show cover.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Heh. Not sure how to get the original size photo on here, it's a lot more clear.

    Last edited by Turd_Ferguson; 10/23/2014 at 06:42 PM.

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  10. #70
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    One factor on this play that is troubling is the distance for the throw to Neal's outside shoulder is way too far. Any decent CB has the opportunity to jump the route and snag it or at least break it up. I think we're all in agreement this is not a good play in this situation. Maybe Neal is too far over? Looks like he's about 15 yards wide. Some of this I think almost has to be on Neal.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd_Ferguson View Post
    Heh. Not sure how to get the original size photo on here, it's a lot more clear.

    If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

    EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.

  12. #72
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by cvsooner View Post
    One factor on this play that is troubling is the distance for the throw to Neal's outside shoulder is way too far. Any decent CB has the opportunity to jump the route and snag it or at least break it up. I think we're all in agreement this is not a good play in this situation. Maybe Neal is too far over? Looks like he's about 15 yards wide. Some of this I think almost has to be on Neal.
    I'd have to compare that play to another time we ran it, but Neal looks to be in the correct position. Neal didn't make the greatest effort to get back to the ball, but I can't put much (if any) of the blame on him. He did kinda round his route off, but the ball was already in the air.

  13. #73
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by BermudaSooner View Post
    If you sit TK, then we probably don't have the drive all the way down the field for a TD that happened right after that play.
    Maybe, maybe not, but C. Thomas and the whole O team did a pretty good job of moving the ball right down the field ~80 yards for 6 after the TK injury.
    I don't know if this was because our whole offensive team decided that they'd better step up and do their job and not wait for their teammate to make a play or whether it short-circuited this ridiculous micromanagement procedure from the top of just calling a play, and it showed positive results.
    This 4 coach play-calling procedure, if true, imo, is the most ridiculous OU coaching event that I've heard about since the Boo Blake change-the-QB-every-week fiasco. If it is true though, it sure explains a lot of this getting a play called in a timely manner cluster*&^%.
    I saw these somewhere, and it does explain some of the woes we've had on the D side for the season and in this game, as well.

    "Oklahoma has allowed the most receptions (20) and touchdowns (7) on passes thrown 15 yards or longer in the Big 12. The Sooners, however, lead the conference in interceptions on such passes (4)", and it just confirms that if we don't get any picks, we're screwed.

    "Jake Waters completed 7-of-9 passes on first down Saturday"

    "Kansas State had 175 rushing yards on 28 designed runs, its highest average (6.3) in a game this season and almost 3 more yards than what Oklahoma allowed entering the game (3.9).

    Good discussion thread with some valid posts except for the usual.

  14. #74
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.

  15. #75
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by ashley View Post
    The out to the wide side of the field from that place on the field was a horrible call.
    Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?

  16. #76
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    Unless it worked, then it would have been a "great" call, right?
    Of course. Coaches walk a fine line between genius and moron status. Everyone laments the conservative Bob Stoops in favor of the Riverboat Gambler but man, that has backfired too many times.

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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by cvsooner View Post
    Of course. Coaches walk a fine line between genius and moron status. Everyone laments the conservative Bob Stoops in favor of the Riverboat Gambler but man, that has backfired too many times.
    Exactly. I was talking to a buddy yesterday, and we were having the conversation about this play and he said "If TK keeps the ball and while running out of the endzone...gets stripped, and KSU recovers the ball in the EZ for a touchdown, then everyone is pissed that Heupel called a QB run...it's a lose/lose situation". Again, 20/20 hindsight.

    Heupel is under the microscope right now (and I'm not arguing he shouldn't be there), but any mistakes (real or perceived) is going to magnified, and he isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from the "Fire Heupel" crowd.

  18. #78
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

    EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.
    Knight didn't read anything. He immediately turned to his left, looked straight at Neal, and threw the ball.

    McDaniel knew he had deep help, stepped in front of the pass, and scored the easiest touchdown in his life.

    The only thing that surprises me is that McDaniel didn't drop the ball out of pure shock alone.
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    No way. The safety committed inside at the snap, there's no way he's recovers and gains 40 yards before Neal releases on the go. The safety was playing the run almost from the start, he was not in the box pre-snap because Snyder wanted to show cover.
    The safety did not commit to the run. He had his eyes on Knight the whole time, he had already made a step toward the receiver before Knight even let the ball go.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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    Re: Clarification: The pick 6 against KSU (Not on Heupel)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    If you watch the play (on YouTube), you can see the safety (22) commit inside at the snap. I'd say that's what TK read when he threw it to Neal, but he doesn't take enough to time to read anything. From that view, you can see the corner (7) playing off (he did a good job disguising his intentions). Still a bad throw.

    EDIT: After looking at that picture, you can see we have KSU outnumbered on the left side of the line. Even if the safety spins down, Perine would be one-on-one with him, would have been at least a positive gain and gotten us out of the endzone.
    Yes. That's why I pointed out Flowers' block on that play. He blew up the end, Tyson had already crushed the LB, and Shead had the DT. The only player remaining on that side was the safety playing back in coverage.

    Assuming the safety played the run, you are still looking at 240+ Perine against what looks to be about a 195 pound safety. Surely, Perine trucks him for 4 or 5 yards...IF Neal blocks the corner to keep him out of the play.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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