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  1. #21
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrophyCollector View Post
    One less than our team scores.
    BINGO! SOMEONE GETS IT!

  2. #22
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    It's hard to say if OU's talent is better, because in this day and age, every team has talent. Prior to scholarship limits, it wasn't unheard of for a coach (like Switzer) to bring in guys just to keep them away from other teams. Now, that's not really possible.

    Anymore, it's about what you do to develop the talent you bring in...and OU is pretty damn good at that.

    We can certainly be better at bringing in kids (and I think the addition of the new coaches has us heading in that direction).

    Right now, I'd say we are better than most of the teams in the conference overall. Baylor probably has better offensive talent, and Texas probably has better defensive talent. As a whole, I don't think there's a team as talented as OU, but as Bill Snyder just proved (again), talent is only part of the equation.

  3. #23
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner8th View Post
    I didn't say anything about points per game. I was talking about being 107th in the country in pass defense and i was talking about firing mike.

    How many games do we have to lose before you think the coach is fired? How many loses to K-STATE do we have to endure before the coach is fired?
    More than 2, it would seem.

  4. #24
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner8th View Post
    I didn't say anything about points per game. I was talking about being 107th in the country in pass defense and i was talking about firing mike.

    How many games do we have to lose before you think the coach is fired? How many loses to K-STATE do we have to endure before the coach is fired?
    You were talking about the Defensive Coordinator. As far as I know you wouldn't knee jerk and fire a coordinator because you lost a few games if that particular coordinator was not the problem. I don't really care what rank we are in pass defense or run defense either as far as that goes. The numbers can be skewed because due to the type offense the other teams employ. We have played three top 25 scoring offenses. In each instance we held them to less than their average by a thumbnail estimate of about 25%. It's how many points you allow the other team to score. In that respect we are doing pretty well. I wouldn't be surprised if that number gets even better as the back half of our schedule looks easier (minus Baylor) than the first half.

    Just because we lose a few games doesn't mean somebody should be fired. That's silly. If everybody did that there may not be a single employed coach left in the country by the end of the season. This is football. Half of the teams lose every week. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve but simply firing the defensive coordinator isn't likely to solve one thing and most likely would make things worse.

  5. #25
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    That would be STEP.
    What's the question again?
    Last edited by stoops the eternal pimp; 10/20/2014 at 09:13 AM.
    Bazinga

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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    I would say the talent is above average but not elite..

    I think the mix match of talent makes the sum of the units look bad..ie, Ahmed Thomas and Quentin Hayes..I think Hayes is very good, Thomas is not. Sanchez is good IMO, Wilson is not.

    It's tough for me looking through everything with NFL eyes, but if you think we are that much more talented than everyone, I would like to know who the players are..
    Bazinga

  7. #27
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerjeepman View Post
    Okay,
    Just a discussion thread.

    I keep reading how OU's talent is young, better, etc. I'll leave the stats up to someone else...I'm not so sure OU's talent is that much above all the other schools.

    Not flaming, just throwing it out there.

    I'd say equal, not below nor above.
    The new line coaches are out stealing two-star "diamond in the rough" recruits from North Texas and Houston...so, draw your own conclusions about where this thing might be in two to three years.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
    President Ronald Reagan at the Berlin Wall, June 12, 1987

  8. #28
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    The new line coaches are out stealing two-star "diamond in the rough" recruits from North Texas and Houston...so, draw your own conclusions about where this thing might be in two to three years.
    I'd say North Texas and Houston are going to be hurtin' in the trenches.

  9. #29
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    I'd say North Texas and Houston are going to be hurtin' in the trenches.
    I think it's unfair to single out these two teams. We seem to be winning recruiting battles with UT San Antonio, New Mexico St and UL Lafayette as well.

  10. #30
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    The new line coaches are out stealing two-star "diamond in the rough" recruits from North Texas and Houston...so, draw your own conclusions about where this thing might be in two to three years.
    You need to get away from the recruiting services and their star rankings. Texas A&M has landed one of the best classes in the country the past two years (according to the services), and how are they doing? Same thing for Tennessee.

    Stars (and the recruiting services) only get it right about half the time. I did a bunch of research in the offseason, and the data was pretty clear that they do a better than average job of identifying the elite players (that they rate 5 stars), but they do a (way) below average job of identifying excellent talent (that they rate a 3 star or lower). The easiest Sooner example is Eric Striker. He was a 3 star player, with very few offers.

    When Matthew Romar and Charles Walker become starters (probably next year), it will once again show how often the services get it wrong.

    Coaches recruit to their systems. Not to what the services say.

  11. #31
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    When Matthew Romar and Charles Walker become starters (probably next year), it will once again show how often the services get it wrong.
    until we get beat by someone we aren't suppose to! lol (just kidding...sort of~)

    I started the thread because I just don't see OU's "talent" that much greater than anyone but ku...maybe isu in the big 12. Which is fine, but when folks go predicting a 40 point win over anyone BUT ku I get the feeling they really see OU as much more talented.
    Last edited by Soonerjeepman; 10/20/2014 at 03:18 PM.
    How do you know if you get there, if you don't know where you are going?..oh and I had 1,713 post on the "other board"..I hate being a rookie again!

  12. #32
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerjeepman View Post
    until we get beat by someone we aren't suppose to! lol (just kidding...sort of~)

    I started the thread because I just don't see OU's "talent" that much greater than anyone but ku...maybe isu in the big 12. Which is fine, but when folks go predicting a 40 point win over anyone BUT ku I get the feeling they really see OU as much more talented.
    It's like anything..People look at single glimpses or because it's OU that the talent is better than anyone else.
    Bazinga

  13. #33
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoops the eternal pimp View Post
    I would say the talent is above average but not elite..

    I think the mix match of talent makes the sum of the units look bad..ie, Ahmed Thomas and Quentin Hayes..I think Hayes is very good, Thomas is not. Sanchez is good IMO, Wilson is not.

    It's tough for me looking through everything with NFL eyes, but if you think we are that much more talented than everyone, I would like to know who the players are..
    Judging by recruiting rankings, I'd imagine we have a lot more natural talent than K-State, or even TCU. Whether that natural talent is converted into becoming a good player is maybe a different story. KSU looked like trash when Snyder left, so I imagine it's a lot about coaching.

  14. #34
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerorLater View Post
    I think it's unfair to single out these two teams. We seem to be winning recruiting battles with UT San Antonio, New Mexico St and UL Lafayette as well.
    My apologies to all Roadrunner, Aggy, and Rajun Cajun fans...if and wherever they can be found.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner79 View Post
    I'd say North Texas and Houston are going to be hurtin' in the trenches.
    North Texas did lose by 35 to UAB a couple of weeks ago. So, you could argue their defense could use the Romar kid Montgomery stole from them a couple of signing periods ago.

    Houston lost their home opener to Texas State two years ago...and, their brand new stadium grand opener this year to UT-San Antonio...so, again...yeah. Guys that could be starting for them are now part of our Occupy Bench group.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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  16. #36
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 8timechamps View Post
    You need to get away from the recruiting services and their star rankings. Texas A&M has landed one of the best classes in the country the past two years (according to the services), and how are they doing? Same thing for Tennessee.

    Stars (and the recruiting services) only get it right about half the time. I did a bunch of research in the offseason, and the data was pretty clear that they do a better than average job of identifying the elite players (that they rate 5 stars), but they do a (way) below average job of identifying excellent talent (that they rate a 3 star or lower). The easiest Sooner example is Eric Striker. He was a 3 star player, with very few offers.

    When Matthew Romar and Charles Walker become starters (probably next year), it will once again show how often the services get it wrong.

    Coaches recruit to their systems. Not to what the services say.
    Ok. So, let's trade rosters with North Texas and Houston, because analyzing the kids out of high school doesn't work, right?

    The "star" system isn't perfect. But, you certainly find that the teams who recruit more of the 4- and 5-star players tend to win a bunch.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
    President Ronald Reagan at the Berlin Wall, June 12, 1987

  17. #37
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    Ok. So, let's trade rosters with North Texas and Houston, because analyzing the kids out of high school doesn't work, right?

    The "star" system isn't perfect. But, you certainly find that the teams who recruit more of the 4- and 5-star players tend to win a bunch.
    A bit simplistic. North Texas and Houston have players we don't offer in general. And they offer players they know they won't land if they also get offers from P5 schools. Similarly, we offer 4 and 5 star players we know we won't land if those guys get offers from their favorite regional school.

  18. #38
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tear Down This Wall View Post
    Ok. So, let's trade rosters with North Texas and Houston, because analyzing the kids out of high school doesn't work, right?

    The "star" system isn't perfect. But, you certainly find that the teams who recruit more of the 4- and 5-star players tend to win a bunch.
    That is because the stars are heavily biased towards those schools. Generally speaking, recruits are rated based on who offers them. If it is a "good" school, they will be skewed up. If it is a bad school, they will be pushed down. It just kind of turns it into a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

    Remember that 66% of the players drafted in the last 4 years have been 3* or lower (including super stars like JJ Watt). It isn't that there are bad players in those groups, it is that for whatever reason their potential isn't evaluated correctly.

    OG is the most biased towards 3* and lower at 86%
    RB is the most baised towards 4* and higher at 54%

    Which just coincidentally mirrors our recruiting. The second problem is that just because someone is bad one year does not mean they are going to be bad the next year. We've had several situations in the secondary where someone who was horrid one year came back at the same or a different position the next year and was absolutely rock solid.

  19. #39
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoops the eternal pimp View Post
    I would say the talent is above average but not elite..

    I think the mix match of talent makes the sum of the units look bad..ie, Ahmed Thomas and Quentin Hayes..I think Hayes is very good, Thomas is not. Sanchez is good IMO, Wilson is not.

    It's tough for me looking through everything with NFL eyes, but if you think we are that much more talented than everyone, I would like to know who the players are..
    The bigger problem is that it only takes 2 guys not playing well to create a mismatch than an offense can exploit.

    We currently have 2 weak pieces on defense -> Dominique Alexander and Thomas. Both of these guys just look lost out there which is something that should improve over the spring which doesn't do us any good right now.

    We also have a slacker on defense -> Jordan Evans. When he decides he wants to make a play, the guy is amazing. Then there are the other 40 plays where he decides he can't make the play and just dogs it. The question is whether he can ever get to the point where he believes he can make every play (like our 2000 linebackers).


    It is tough to stop anyone when you are playing 11 on 8 on any single series.

  20. #40
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    Re: is OU's "natural talent" above, the same or below, the other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm, the stolen pifwafwi View Post
    That is because the stars are heavily biased towards those schools. Generally speaking, recruits are rated based on who offers them. If it is a "good" school, they will be skewed up. If it is a bad school, they will be pushed down. It just kind of turns it into a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

    Remember that 66% of the players drafted in the last 4 years have been 3* or lower (including super stars like JJ Watt). It isn't that there are bad players in those groups, it is that for whatever reason their potential isn't evaluated correctly.

    OG is the most biased towards 3* and lower at 86%
    RB is the most baised towards 4* and higher at 54%

    Which just coincidentally mirrors our recruiting. The second problem is that just because someone is bad one year does not mean they are going to be bad the next year. We've had several situations in the secondary where someone who was horrid one year came back at the same or a different position the next year and was absolutely rock solid.
    That's only true to a point. If I get dragged to a high school football game, I can tell you whether any one of them on the field is good enough to play at OU, Texas, Bama, or whomever.

    It isn't rocket science. High school film of Adrian Peterson looks a hell of a lot different than high school film of whomever North Texas signed in 2004.

    I think it's safe to say that most of us have watched DI/FBS football the entirety of our adult lives. If you grew up near a pro team, you've seen that for decades as well. I grew up near Dallas. Between following Oklahoma since I can remember and being inundated with Cowboys all these years....

    In the vast majority of cases, you can watch a high school football game - which I loathe doing because the games/execution is so slow - you can see whether there are any men among boys, which is what the 4- and 5-star guys are.

    Yes, some develop later. But, realistically, the coaching staffs watch plenty of film of these kids - especially these days - to know the best players. And, their conclusions are not far from the recruiting services. As thin as the margin of error is in these judgements, it doesn't make sense to take flyers on a bunch of two-star guys...especially on the offensive and defensive lines.
    "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
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