Originally Posted by Turd_Ferguson
Never thought it. Never said it.
But I see you still think that I think I'm smart. Didja write that remark on your hand so you could remember it? Maybe 5 or 6 times you've accused me of the same lame thing. You're still wrong.
5-0
BOY HOWDY !!!!
Naw, never wrote it down...I just think the same thing every time I read one of your post.
OleVet Posse Instigator
I never thought "Team America: World Police" would ever be a model for diplomacy...But the Leftist has done it and sent Putin a "sternly worded letter"...
Last edited by TheHumanAlphabet; 3/18/2014 at 10:39 AM.
Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.
And exactly what should have been done? I think any administration from any party would have done the same thing because there is no alternative response that is rational. Even McCain would act differently if he had to make the call vs. comment from the peanut gallery.
100% agree.
One would hope. But he's thrown a lot of peanuts over the years.Even McCain would act differently if he had to make the call vs. comment from the peanut gallery.
Ukraine: Not Our Fight.
More epicycles!
Oh, I am not necessarily saying anything else should be done... But I think more than a "sternly worded letter" and banning a few high priests of Putin from this country could have been done. Putin called the bluff and now Crimea and soon the Ukraine will be back in the Russian fold... That is unless we start building a natural gas pipeline from the West to Kiev. I am sure Putin will not hesitate to stop the flow on his side...
Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.
And that's the thing I fear will happen. I'd rather Ukraine burn Russia's precious natural gas resources than ours. And we'd be giving it away under the guise of a guaranteed loan (i.e. us tax payers). The Crimea region is one thing and will probably become a pain in the rear for Putin when he has to deal with Muslim extremists. The rest of Ukraine is another deal and they have more ties to NATO countries. Is it worth US lives to prop up the Ukraine? Or just massive support $$ ? I don't have any answers, but I hope our response is more reasoned than wanting to "look tough" and how it might impact mid-term elections. The effectiveness of any future response will be determined by how much of a united front Putin has to deal with from NATO et. al., not just the US. The Crimea grab should help unite the rest of NATO and friends and up the cost factor in the equation for Putin.
How about Sheila Jackson Lee thinking the Constitution is 400 y.o.? I could go on about that nut job. Palin would wipe her off the floor. I am so tired of the conservative bashing... What about that Georgia nut job that lost her seat, she was certifiable. Oh, hey, what about the criminal jesse jackson jr and his fine upstanding wife...need I go on?
Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.
Going back to my point about cost, here is an article about the immediate cash infusion that Russia is going to have to make in the Crimea. Please note that while they talk all about the corruption, they throw out realistic numbers for intervention, not ones that would be severely inflated by graft (like the power plant example).
http://money.msn.com/business-news/a...19&id=17447730
As we've seen with our own economy, you can only support so many boat anchors. Russia can float Crimea (although it is going to be a lot more floating than even Moscow understands with all of the corruption), but they make themselves more vulnerable if something bad happens (like oil/gas cratering or another boat anchor like the rest of the Ukraine). I just don't see how Putin can afford to go after any more breakaways without severely crippling his own economy.
http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000year...arders-change/
Let's try it again. It's a short video showing how the map of Europe has changed over the past 1000 years.
5-0
Last edited by hawaii 5-0; 3/19/2014 at 04:28 PM.
BOY HOWDY !!!!
All of the geopolitical stuff aside, I don't really understand the move either. Financially, it doesn't make a lot of sense (unless the larger goal is Ukraine as a whole). I've heard (more than once) that Putin wanted a warm water port, but that doesn't make sense either, as Russia already virtually owned the naval port in Crimera.
With all the media attention being placed on the military/invasion side of things, nobody has really stopped to asked "why" Putin made the move. Like I said (and as you mentioned), the move makes almost no sense financially, and to stir the pot for what amounts to a small land grab just doesn't really compute.
I've heard folks talk about Putin's move as a precursor to taking back Ukraine, and that would certainly make more financial sense, but otherwise, it's a bad move economically. If Putin does make a run for the entire country, then international sanctions (with teeth) are sure to follow. Combine that with a sagging Russian stock market, and their economy will undoubtedly be in shambles.
Heh, no better than Palestine, sad indeed. South Ossetia is another example of annexation that hasn't panned out as well, a lot of cost and no gain. Crimea is no South Ossetia though. I realize pensions, infrastructure, graft, etc all are economic drags for Russia, there is some upside. Location and tourism, (don't laugh), mineral rights, the 15 billion loan they guaranteed the yanukovich govt, the discount on gas for Sevastopol, etc add to Russian coffers.
Putin's actions are motivated by ethno-nationalism and Realpolitik. The moment NATO began to flirt with adding Georgia and further pushing into traditional Russian spheres of influence he moved. The same happened in Ukraine. The foreign policy establishment is even more clueless of geopolitics than I gave them credit for if they did not see this coming.
So the NYTimes has this gallery of the events -> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ns-crimea.html
To me, the key is the 2nd to last map which shows the ethnicity. This shows the nature of both Crimea and the heavily industrialized (and polluted) Donets basin. This area is roughly equivalent to our own rust belt in the late 70's early 80's.
Crimea
1. There is absolutely no reason that a major port should ever be a net economic liability for a region. When that major port is also a prime tourist destination it absolutely boggles the mind. In other words, the fact that the federal government in Kiev has to provide over 1/2 of the region's funding is lunacy. To put this in perspective, it would be like our government having to prop up Long Beach, CA. um, hmm.
2. I can't find exact numbers for sevastapol but it looks like it is way under the capacity of Odessa. This doesn't even consider the transport problems of getting crap across the isthmuses to the port. In other words, the port has good strategic value, but not necessarily the best operational value.
Donets
1. Once again, it is heavily populated, heavily polluted (yay strip mining coal) and is the country's primary industrial region. The question I have is whether its long term negative value (outside of the people) is worth its short term positive value.
Once again, I just don't understand what Russia is getting out of this except for population and strategic dirt.
What Putin wants and desperately needs is Russians. Ethnic Russians. The USSR had a horrid policy of deporting ethic members of a captive nation like Estonia or Lithuania and replacing them with communists: these tended to be Muscovite Russians.
. . . friends . . . told the same story: after WW II the USSR would deport ethnic Lithuanians and Estonians to Siberia to settle there, and replace them with ethnic Russians who would sometimes assume the names of the people they replaced. The notion was to better integrate the captive Baltic nations into the Soviet Empire. It didn’t work very well, and worse, from the point of view of the new Russian government, many of those ethnic Russians have identified with their new homelands and do not admit to being Russian any longer; and most have converted to the Lutheran Church, so they might not be welcome back in the USSR.
The birth rate among ethnic Russians in Russia is low and falling. Russia is running out of Russians. While this is not an immediate problem, the continued population decline appears to be steady and inevitable, and that is a downward spiral with great consequences, aging population being one obvious result. Without young men you have no army; or so it has been through most of history. Russia needs Russians. Putin believes he represents the soul of Russia. Putin needs Russians.
. . .
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/view/page/2/
This is at the bottom of p. 2 and so will be on Page 3 soon.
Ukraine: Not Our Fight.
More epicycles!
The Russian stock market is down about 20% on the year (estimated loss somewhere in the area of $75 billion). Investors are way too spooked to jump in there, and the international community wouldn't touch it with Oprah's money. It's not getting better anytime soon, and will continue in a downward trend. Meanwhile, Russia has pretty much claimed everything in Crimea, and I think Ukraine (and everyone else) is just going to have to suck it up. From a financial perspective, this was a really bad move on Putin's part, but he has what he wanted.
I heard Putin had shorted the index before he invaded
My guess is the Crimea is sitting on all the gas and oil leases of Ukraine. This puts Putin in control of energy of the region, rather than the Ukraine, from which it could flex more independence. With this move, he locked up the major port into Russian hands, brings native Russians in the region back into Russia, locks in energy resources and brings ultimately the Ukraine back into his fold. I doubt Ukraine seeks NATO or EU alliance now. I am not sure if he hasn't quieted the EU as they will still require Russian natural gas. They are importing more LNG into the area, but its not enough to shut the Russian pipeline.
Everything progressives do is aimed at weakening democracy, capitalism and the social and cultural institutions that support those things...... They are about subjugating people and being a ruling class.
Some shady sh1t going on in Kiev.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...ons/?tid=hp_mm
Putin came up through KGB. He was, is and always will be KGB, not to mention nuts. I'm not seeing where it is in our national interest to defend Ukraine.
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