http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
Appears the answer is "yes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
Appears the answer is "yes".
I've read a considerable amount about this. Yes, McCarthy was absolutely right and an unfairly maligned hero of the Republic.
The fact is, McCarthy's Senate committee is often confused with the activities of HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) which was responsible for bringing Hollywood actors and their ilk to D.C. to testify on communist activity. In fact, I even had a textbook in HS that stated McCarthy was the Chairman of HUAC and dragged these poor souls in front of his committee. My government indoctrination camp instructor (teacher) was flummoxed when I pointed out that McCarthy, as a United States Senator, was neither in the House nor Chairman of HUAC nor did he drag any Hollywood types before his committee.
McCarthy was primarily interested with investigating Communist sympathizers and agents within our own government who had access to restricted information or had a certain level of security clearance. Many of those who he pegged as Communist agents were, in fact, communist agents.
SicEm, it is very obvious that the left has used the methods to discredit McCarthy as their Rosetta Stone for dealing with conservative opposition over the next 60 years. One should note that none on the left are ever demagogued for spouting wild accusations of racism and bigotry.
But they didn't make movies about McCarthy, and they did make movies (sad movies) about people who opposed him. So that's probably all American needs to know.
Hollywood knew and continues to know it was guilty of communist subversion during the Cold War which is why they're the loudest to scream 'foul.'Originally Posted by cleller
So....since McCarthy was an unfairly maligned hero of the Republic...why did the Soviet Union lose the Cold War?
Petrodollar hegemony?
Control energy and you can cut their supply lines.
Truman shut him the hell up?
Mercantilism?
Who the hell cares who they are if you completely dismantle everything they believe in for decades....maybe even Centuries?
I can't make sense of the connection you're trying to make. They had agents here; we had agents there. To a small degree, I believe McCarthy made it more difficult for Soviet agents to operate during that time period.
I'm saying that what McCarthy did was small potatoes when you are trying to defeat your enemy via a Cold War. We didn't need him to expose them since we knew who they were. We just needed to become a Super Power that we are. Their agents just didn't matter that much and ruining lives of people who got in the way wasn't useful either. You don't defeat your enemy unless you offer them a deal they can't resist.
Hell....people are still trying to get the hell out of the Soviet Union. Who would want to live there and be a part of what's left?
Just now journalists are exposing the Chinese hacking. Do you seriously think we don't know what they are doing? Who they are?
This is all about money and that the US Dollar remains the World's Dominant Reserve Currency.
I'd call it medium potatoes at the time. It certainly didn't bring down the Soviet Union, but Soviet spies with high level security clearance in the US State Department and DOD was a huge concern and McCarthy investigated and rooted much of that out.
Uh we didn't know who they were. That was the point of his efforts and his committed -- to identify paid Soviet informants. If we knew who they were they would have been fired, arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned.We didn't need him to expose them since we knew who they were.
We already were at that point...We just needed to become a Super Power that we are.
[quote]Their agents just didn't matter that much and ruining lives of people who got in the way wasn't useful either. You don't defeat your enemy unless you offer them a deal they can't resist.[/quotes]
Your belief that allowing Soviet agents to operate within our government is not surprising considering your deep-seeded love for all things Union who themselves were benefiting from Soviet support.
Well, that's a hell of a f'n accomplishment since the Soviet Union hasn't existed in over two decades.Hell....people are still trying to get the hell out of the Soviet Union.
What, in the name of God, does that have to do with what we're talking about? That is apples v. oranges. You're talking about Chinese cyber attacks from within China....what we're talking about is American citizens getting paid by the Soviet Union to pass them classified information.Just now journalists are exposing the Chinese hacking. Do you seriously think we don't know what they are doing? Who they are?
No. This is about McCarthy. Please tkae your crazy somewhere else.This is all about money and that the US Dollar remains the World's Dominant Reserve Currency.
McCarty tried to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States and he died an alcoholic at Bethesda Naval Hospital at the age of 48. Crazy? Yes he was. And anyone thinking he wasn't....they are too.
Also...I didn't say we let them operate within our Government. Counter-intelligence doesn't always require you to fire one of them if you can get them to send bad or miss leading info and uncover even more of them.
I'm talking about Technique. McCarthy got caught up in himself.
You guys seem to be feeling sorry for him. Are you next going to say The Senate was to harsh on him?
They are trying to exonerate Mcarthy using wiki? ROTFLMA
One really nevers knows what goes on in the world of espionage and those who think they know are on a fools errand.
I would hope members of the US Senate are a little more in the loop on intelligence than the average citizen. The criticism of Wikipedia is a strawman.
diver's astatist. What do you expect?
Put a lid on it! Kiss it goodbye. We gave it away, and apparently thought it made sense to do so.
A strawman? Are you serious? You do know that anyone can edit it, right? Would you want to go to court as that being your only source of evidence?
Look, I am neither for or against McCarthy. I just think there is a lot of controversy around many of those cases back then and I do not think we will ever know the truth. Hell even the article you linked pretty much stated there were issues with the reliability of information that was gathered. They could all be guilty or they all could be innocent...we will never know for sure.
Last edited by diverdog; 3/4/2013 at 01:19 AM.
The wiki article is just a convenient summary of the Venona information. There has been plenty written on the subject of the Venona cables ranging the media gambit and including a fair number of books. It isn't like the wiki article is the only source of information here.
Last edited by SicEmBaylor; 3/4/2013 at 01:38 AM.
It was the only one linked and that is what I responded to. Fair enough?
Oh another thing. I do not trust the Senate a lick when it comes to getting intel right...see NK, Vietnam, and Iraq wars.
[QUOTE=diverdog;3593438]A strawman? Are you serious? You do know that anyone can edit it, right? Would you want to go to court as that being your only source of evidence?
I actually think the constant reviews keeps wiki more up to date and more objective. Apparently Encyclopedia Brittanica is going to a similiar on-line format and has stopped publishing printed versions of their encyclopedia so I guess that means they are now a quetionable source. And yes, I think it is a weak tactic to question a source that lists the dozens of references it used. If you don't believe the Wiki article then read the references.
Last edited by FaninAma; 3/4/2013 at 10:36 AM.
Back to the topic.
Was McCarthy right about what?
That there were, and are, undoubtedly, people in our government who are at least sympathic to communism/socialism/the Soviet Union/Russia, or are actually in the pay of the intelligence services of that foreign power?
If that's the question, then the answer is, 'Duh'.
Can I point them out to you? No. But it is beyond doubt that foreign powers (including our dear friends the Brits and Canadians) have agents in place to both monitor and to influence our government's actions. Just as we have in their governments. All governments keep an eye on each other.
McCarthy let it make him crazy and pursued the issue in a moronic way. Angleton, at CIA, did so much more effectively and quietly for far longer. Sometimes once you identify an agent, you're better off leaving him alone and watching him, and feeding him little tidbits that you want his masters to learn.
That's why we have intelligence services. It's also why their activities are not valuably reviewed and discussed by the full congress on CSpan.
"I don't know karate, but I know ka-razor!" - James Brown
Did any of you guys see the movie or read the book: The Falcon and the Snowman? - about two guys selling classified information to the Soviets.
I thought the movie was great.
Last edited by SanJoaquinSooner; 3/4/2013 at 01:15 PM.
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