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  1. #301
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by yermom View Post
    i'm about to play the stupid card again.
    that's a surprise?
    Put a lid on it! Kiss it goodbye. We gave it away, and apparently thought it made sense to do so.

  2. #302
    Drunky Town Limnologist Fraggle145's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    Fraggle, human life and human potential are far more valuable than other forms of life. If you don't agree with that assertion I really don't care to carry on a conversation with you on this subject.

    i don't know what to say to somebody who puts the same value on a sea urchin zygote as they do a 7 week human fetus.
    I'm not disagreeing completely. Its just the anthropocentric viewpoint can become bothersome. We are not more highly evolved or a higher animal. Stick us out in Africa and if a lion decided to eat us we'd be toast. And you are really missing the point that I was trying to make with the sea urchin zygote. I probably made my point better with this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggle145 View Post
    I dont know how many people born as a result of in vitro fertilization techniques went on to be amazing in their chosen profession. All I know is that for every IVF baby other zygotes are produced that arent necessarily successful. Are all of those the start of human lives? potentially? were all the zygotes that were produced and then discarded during and after the production of said successful IVF child murdered? That was the only point I was making was that just because cells can divide doesnt mean they are necessarily alive.
    A zygote and a 7 week old human fetus are not really comparable, but what about a sea urchin zygote and a human zygote?
    Quote Originally Posted by yermom
    your puny brain can't understand the awesomeness of God
    Olevet Posse - Dirty Lib

  3. #303
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Gawd damn...I wouldn't want to get in a death match with Frag...that sob never gives up...takes on all comers and always a top contender...

  4. #304
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Gawd damn...I wouldn't want to get in a death match with Frag...that sob never gives up...takes on all comers and always a top contender...
    It's tough to lose when he's right

  5. #305
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It's tough to lose when he's right
    Hey!

  6. #306
    Drunky Town Limnologist Fraggle145's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Gawd damn...I wouldn't want to get in a death match with Frag...that sob never gives up...takes on all comers and always a top contender...


    I want to say thanks to Apollo, for fightin me Apollo...
    Quote Originally Posted by yermom
    your puny brain can't understand the awesomeness of God
    Olevet Posse - Dirty Lib

  7. #307
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member FaninAma's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggle145 View Post
    A zygote and a 7 week old human fetus are not really comparable, but what about a sea urchin zygote and a human zygote?
    So you are saying a 7 week human fetus should have some consideration and protection against having its existence ended? If so then our views aren't so different.

    if that's not what you are saying then you are in effect saying a 7 week human fetus with a beating heart=a human zygote= a sea urchin zygote. A=B. B= C. Thus A=C.

    To sum up your view: Human life holds no dominion or value over other forms of life. Am I understanding your premise right? I don't want to misrepresent your view.
    Last edited by FaninAma; 1/27/2013 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #308
    Drunky Town Limnologist Fraggle145's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    So you are saying a 7 week human fetus should have some consideration and protection against having its existence ended? If so then our views aren't so different.
    To some extent I agree with this. Or at least agree that to me it is more valuable than a sea urchin zygote. or for that matter a human zygote. A 7 week old fetus/embryo/whatever the you want to call it is different than a zygote. Is it alive? I'm not sure... There are lots of reasons I am not sure. I definitely think there should be some consideration before terminating it or for that matter any pregnancy. But I still think there are reasons for termination beyond just rape, incest, etc... Do I wish those reasons didnt exist? Yes. Do I wish people didnt need/want/whatever abortions? Yes. Do I still think it is ultimately the woman's (or the couple's) choice? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    if that's not what you are saying then you are in effect saying a 7 week human fetus with a beating heart=a human zygote= a sea urchin zygote. A=B. B= C. Thus A=C.
    Definitely not saying this.

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    To sum up your view: Human life holds no dominion or value over other forms of life? Am I understanding your premise right? I don't want to misrepresent your view.
    Holds no dominion would be correct. Gotta remember I am sorta a hippie. I think there is more value, but that is only because I am a human. But there is a lot of value in other life and biodiversity as well. And the way humans **** all over the environment and treat every other form of life as if it hasnt been evolving up to this point without really properly weighing the cost, benefits, and balances of what other organisms provide annoys the hell out of me.
    Quote Originally Posted by yermom
    your puny brain can't understand the awesomeness of God
    Olevet Posse - Dirty Lib

  9. #309
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member FaninAma's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggle145 View Post
    To some extent I agree with this. Or at least agree that to me it is more valuable than a sea urchin zygote. or for that matter a human zygote. A 7 week old fetus/embryo/whatever the you want to call it is different than a zygote. Is it alive? I'm not sure... There are lots of reasons I am not sure. I definitely think there should be some consideration before terminating it or for that matter any pregnancy. But I still think there are reasons for termination beyond just rape, incest, etc... Do I wish those reasons didnt exist? Yes. Do I wish people didnt need/want/whatever abortions? Yes. Do I still think it is ultimately the woman's (or the couple's) choice? Yes.



    Definitely not saying this.



    Holds no dominion would be correct. Gotta remember I am sorta a hippie. I think there is more value, but that is only because I am a human. But there is a lot of value in other life and biodiversity as well. And the way humans **** all over the environment and treat every other form of life as if it hasnt been evolving up to this point without really properly weighing the cost, benefits, and balances of what other organisms provide annoys the hell out of me.
    Gotcha. Then I think that what youare saying is a human fetus' value is less than that of any other form of life that exists outside of a womb. And when I say "its value is less"I mean equal or less consideration or regard should be given to a human fetus as opposed to a dog, cat or even a lion in the wild. Do you draw the line at vertebrates or is invertebrate life included?

    i think it has been established that you have respect for life but you feel there is a diiference in the relative worth of different forms of life.. I am just trying to find out where your break point is on being able to arbitrarily end the existence of different forms of life without repurcussions.
    Last edited by FaninAma; 1/27/2013 at 03:54 PM.

  10. #310
    Drunky Town Limnologist Fraggle145's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    Gotcha. Then I think that what youare saying is a human fetus' value is less than that of any other form of life that exists outside of a womb. And when I say "its value is less"I mean equal or less consieration or regard should be given to a human fetus as opposed to a dog, cat or even a lion in the wild. Do you draw the line at vertebrates or is invertebrate life included? Is that correct?
    To me, a human fetuses value in the womb is less than one outside. And it gains more value as it comes to term.

    I think more consideration should ultimately be given to humans over other animals. But that's just it, I wish humans were better at actually going through the proper consideration before they made a decision. And thus were more considerate of the environment and other forms of life, because in my opinion although we have more value to ourselves we arent in any way a higher organism. We are just evolutionarily derived in a different direction.

    Invertebrates, bacteria, etc... would all be included. Some organisms are more valuable than others. The "keystone species" or "ecosystem engineer" if you will. For example, without the salmon in the pacific northwest there would be no temperate rainforest. As raw elements from the salmon eventually end up in the trees along with the bears that eat them first. Without bacteria or algae there would almost certainly be no humans as the earth would soon become inhospitable. But for the most part each organism occupies an important role. Most of which we dont even have a good understanding of their ecology.
    Quote Originally Posted by yermom
    your puny brain can't understand the awesomeness of God
    Olevet Posse - Dirty Lib

  11. #311
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member FaninAma's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Thanks. I tend to agree that all life deserves respect. Ending any form of life should be done for survival, ie. in defense of one's own life, for food, or clothing(if no other means are available and it is not done for fashion decoration)

    Ending the existence of a human fetus fits none of those categories in the vast majority of cases. Most abortions are usually performed for reasons of convenience.

  12. #312
    Drunky Town Limnologist Fraggle145's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    Most abortions are usually performed for reasons of convenience.
    What are the hard numbers on abortions? Number/day or /year? Any background info on the people getting them? I'm not saying you are wrong, i just have really never seen all of the figures without them being in some sort of biased context that made them questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by yermom
    your puny brain can't understand the awesomeness of God
    Olevet Posse - Dirty Lib

  13. #313
    Sooner Benchwarmer OU68's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I've got all of the above 'cept for the children, but one's on the way.

    Haven't killed one yet unless y'all think BC is murder and if that's the case, I'm a serial killer.
    Despite the fact that I find you personally repugnant, as a grandpa, I wish your wife a successful pregnancy and a healthy child.

  14. #314
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KantoSooner's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    You're creating a strawman. You know the US has more people in prison per capita than most other nations. So are we being like the Taliban because we have rules and throw a bunch of people in prison for breaking those rules? Is having a society of laws where the law breakers are punished being like the Taliban or are we being like the Taliban because you don't like the laws favored by people you disagree with?
    .
    Don't dodge the question.

    Do you not see that rejecting the legitimacy of questioning your position is precisely the technique used by totalitarians and religious bigots the world over? Do you reject the concept of acceptable difference of opinion and a preserved sphere of private morality in our society? Is it correct to impose your conception of right and wrong on the other 300 million citizens of this country?
    Apparently.
    "I don't know karate, but I know ka-razor!" - James Brown

  15. #315
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I've got all of the above 'cept for the children, but one's on the way.

    Haven't killed one yet unless y'all think BC is murder and if that's the case, I'm a serial killer.
    Quote Originally Posted by C&CDean View Post
    Dude, how old are you? I've met you and I'd have to guess 50ish? You've waited till now to procreate so the kid/s can have some $$ and ****? How old you gonna be when your kid/s drops outta high school and starts smoking crack - or graduates as the class valedictorian? IMHO, you're thinking is kinda ****ed up. You'll never even meet your own grandkids. You'll be going to your kids' ball games on a walker.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk the sooner fan View Post
    but its ok because they'll have parents with post graduate degrees, a six figure income and will be better than kids of other posters

    lord - what a doosh
    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Early 30s.

    You've got me mixed up with someone else.
    Seems like maybe an apology is due....

    And HE's the "doosh".
    he likes the fight in this post. he likes the resolve.

    he'll take this post around and post it on any sucker's message board that's beat him 5 years in a row.

    he learned stuff today.

  16. #316
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    For the record, this thread is both awesome and revealing
    he likes the fight in this post. he likes the resolve.

    he'll take this post around and post it on any sucker's message board that's beat him 5 years in a row.

    he learned stuff today.

  17. #317
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member FaninAma's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by KantoSooner View Post
    Don't dodge the question.

    Do you not see that rejecting the legitimacy of questioning your position is precisely the technique used by totalitarians and religious bigots the world over? Do you reject the concept of acceptable difference of opinion and a preserved sphere of private morality in our society? Is it correct to impose your conception of right and wrong on the other 300 million citizens of this country?
    Apparently.
    You call it dodging I call it not understanding WTF you are asking. Are you trying to imply that because I hold a firm opinion on something based on life experiences and am convinced it is the correct opinion that somehow I am like the Taliban? That is just ignorant and typical of the left's style of debate. When you run out of support for your argument start name-calling. I thought you were better than that. Guess not.

  18. #318

    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    i dont owe him an apology - i think he's a doosh

    or as somebody else said so eloquently - personally repugnant

  19. #319
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member FaninAma's Avatar
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk the sooner fan View Post
    i dont owe him an apology - i think he's a doosh

    or as somebody else said so eloquently - personally repugnant
    I agree, it certainly was a dooshish statement especially considering his future kids still have to take advantage of the opportunities given them.

  20. #320
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    Re: How can we STOP ABORTIONS?

    Quote Originally Posted by FaninAma View Post
    You call it dodging I call it not understanding WTF you are asking. Are you trying to imply that because I hold a firm opinion on something based on life experiences and am convinced it is the correct opinion that somehow I am like the Taliban?
    It's reasonable because considering your background with the sciences, you have no excuse not to understand that your opinion is a personal opinion and is extremely fallible and that there is no scientific test to determine exactly when life begins or ends. One side admits to a myriad of possibilities. You say, despite a lack of evidence and based on faith alone that your view is the only view and that because of your view, you think it best to restrain others from exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights. Yes. Very Taliban-like indeed.

    That is just ignorant and typical of the left's style of debate. When you run out of support for your argument start name-calling. I thought you were better than that. Guess not.
    You want to survey the thread real quick to see which side is doing more of the name-calling? And for that matter, go check the names of the threads currently on page 1. We have two liberals being called idiots because of their political stances. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't make them unintelligent.
    Last edited by Midtowner; 1/28/2013 at 11:39 AM.

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