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  1. #41
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Except in this case, we're not going through government bureaucracy to pay for costs outside of Medicare, we're allowing folks to sign up based on a presentation of price and benefits for various plans at the exchange and paying through private insurance.

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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Except in this case, we're not going through government bureaucracy to pay for costs outside of Medicare, we're allowing folks to sign up based on a presentation of price and benefits for various plans at the exchange and paying through private insurance.
    Who is We, and how are they Allowing?

    OleVet Posse Instigator

  3. #43
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerorLater View Post
    "It forces us to all play by the same rules" and that is the problem, being co-opted into a system that you don't want to be part of. When did this kind of government intrusion become palatable to the U.S. citizens?
    Driving back from court in Shawnee today, I'm pretty sure most folks who saw the 70 MPH speed limit sign didn't yell WAAAARRRGGHHHH!! TYRANNY AND OPPRESSION!!! The fact is that just like the fact that everyone on the public roads is participating in a government regulated system of highways and has to follow certain rules, we're all going to be a part of the healthcare economy at some point, and we've decided through the process of democracy and the Constitution, utilizing all 3 branches of government and arriving at what we have. We could decide on a grocery store or auto system, but we haven't. It makes sense that we have chosen to regulate healthcare because we are basically the last first world country to do something like this. It'll be an interesting experiment, but this will be the last chance for any sort of free market healthcare system to function before we either go single payer or totally nationalize things.

  4. #44
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Turd_Ferguson View Post
    Who is We, and how are they Allowing?
    The United States of America is still a "we," ain't it?

  5. #45
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerorLater's Avatar
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by KantoSooner View Post
    Midtowner,
    Requiring X% go to 'healthcare' rather than 'admin costs' is not going to change much. One of those 'suits' simply slides the dollars over into a different column and off we go.

    Improved quality and lower cost in a competitive market are produced by expanded competition between the suppliers, not between the consumers. Getting more people into the system might, arguably contribute to lowering costs by allowing for economies of scale, but something that consumes 17% or so of the largest economy on earth doesn't seem to be gasping for volume in order to cover overhead. I might be wrong; just sayin'.

    'Restructuring the marketplace to lead to greater competition and more consumers within the system...' ...How? How restructured? What greater competition? What more consumers? Right now 100% of our population has a plan. It might be a crappy plan (ie, plan: "if sick, go to ER, get treated, go home stiffing hospital."), but it's a plan. The rest of us have some sort of insurance and carry the balance by ourselves. Does ACA fundamentally change this? I don't see it.

    A Parable.
    There once was a man, let's call him 'Dad'. He had knee replacement surgery. It didn't go so well. He got a staph infection in his femur. Knee had to be replaced several times. Upshot: 'Dad' doesn't walk anymore. He is wheelchair bound.
    The wheelchair is interesting. Medicare bought it. (you're limited to 2 per lifetime. Glad to know 'Dad's' got one more coming in case he wears this one out.) Here's the deal. To buy a wheelchair costs about $400. If you pay yourself. To get Medicare to pay for it, you are billed $100 a month (with $100 up front) for 12 months. 100% of which is covered by Medicare. Then, if you want to keep the chair, you pay $100 more (also covered by Medicare) and it's yours. Notice what happened? A chair with some sort of market value of $400 becomes a thing that is billed to the government at $1400. 'Dad', being a bluff old traditionalist, suggested that perhaps he could just buy it for $400 and then submit the bill to Medicare. No go, said medstore guy, Medicare must be billed by the provider. Hmm, Okay, says 'Dad', how about I take it for 4 months, get Medicare to cover those months and then 'return' the chair, but actually keep it. Medistore gets $400, I get a chair and we don't rip off the public. Medistore guy: "We've thought of that but it would be Medicare 'fraud' and we'd go to jail."
    Moral of the story? Our system is run by people who live in a parallel universe in which money grows in the little boxes in Monopoly sets. It has no meaning to them. To think that these people are somehow going to being able to keep up with insurance companies and hospitals who do, god help them, both understand and really, REALLY love money, and somehow use their purchaing power to reduce costs is to believe in, oh, the big rock candy mountain.

    So far, no one has been able to explain to me why the ACA will work. Not why national health can't work. It does, in lots of countries around the world. But our system aborning. No idea why it will work at all. Kind of interested to see how BamBam deals with it now that it's his baby for four more.
    If you want to make healthcare affordable just do away with insurance altogether. Immediately health services could only charge what the market would bear. No more $100.00 aspirins etc. Every patient would have the incentive to go over each bill with a fine tooth comb. To me the U.S Pharmaceutical Industry is little more than organized crime.

  6. #46
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerorLater's Avatar
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Driving back from court in Shawnee today, I'm pretty sure most folks who saw the 70 MPH speed limit sign didn't yell WAAAARRRGGHHHH!! TYRANNY AND OPPRESSION!!! The fact is that just like the fact that everyone on the public roads is participating in a government regulated system of highways and has to follow certain rules, we're all going to be a part of the healthcare economy at some point, and we've decided through the process of democracy and the Constitution, utilizing all 3 branches of government and arriving at what we have. We could decide on a grocery store or auto system, but we haven't. It makes sense that we have chosen to regulate healthcare because we are basically the last first world country to do something like this. It'll be an interesting experiment, but this will be the last chance for any sort of free market healthcare system to function before we either go single payer or totally nationalize things.
    I'd say that logic is a bit of a stretch, comparing traffic laws to mandated healthcare. The first difference is that states set the speed limit (some Federal guidlines apply & that is a problem too). As we all know by faithfully adhereing to the words of the constitution that this is the type of thing that would fall under the powers of the State. So traffic laws are constitutionally sound.

    Secondly empirical evidence would tell us that we can not operate without traffic laws. However it wouldn't suggest we can't operate without mandated federal healthcare since we are operating under that system now and have been since we became a country.

  7. #47
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by rock on sooner View Post
    In 2014 most provisions go into effect and as the effect of more healthy, younger
    participants come on board and the overall costs begin to drop
    , I think, by 2015
    you'll see some tweaking and by 2018 the program will have stablized. You'll see
    visible effects on health care costs...e.g. what insurance companies offer and pay
    for, you'll see the caregivers begin to be more comfortable with one or two tests,
    as opposed to 4 or 5, also driving down costs. When the insurance companies get
    more fully on board, many caregivers will reenter the Medicare market.

    One of the tweaks, imo, will be regarding malpractise caps. Now, so many tests
    are extraneous just to cover the caregiver's liabilities.
    Not for those healthy, younger participants... Their insurance costs are set to skyrocket because they are being forced to buy more insurance than they need.

    Obamacare is a huge transfer of wealth from the poor(young) to the rich(old). This will keep younger workers from building wealth at the exact time that saving and investing will do the most long term good.

  8. #48
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    Not for those healthy, younger participants... Their insurance costs are set to skyrocket because they are being forced to buy more insurance than they need.

    Obamacare is a huge transfer of wealth from the poor(young) to the rich(old). This will keep younger workers from building wealth at the exact time that saving and investing will do the most long term good.
    Hey, Sapp, don't you think there'll be programs tailored to fit most every need.
    E.G. the auto industry with liability, high deductions , comprehensive and collisions
    choices. I haven't seen any programs written yet but, it seems to me, to be a pretty
    straightforward approach.

  9. #49
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KantoSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    On the tweaking side of things, note that National Health in the UK has been popular for only about the last 10-15 years. It was utterly despised for the first 35 years or so of its existence.
    On that model, we're going to have a bubbling national screaming match until something like 2050.

    Yee Ha.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    Not for those healthy, younger participants... Their insurance costs are set to skyrocket because they are being forced to buy more insurance than they need.

    Obamacare is a huge transfer of wealth from the poor(young) to the rich(old). This will keep younger workers from building wealth at the exact time that saving and investing will do the most long term good.
    We already have a huge transfer of wealth with Medicare.

    I'm not really that concerned. I'll be old eventually and at that point, the whipper snappers can subsidize my decadent lifestyle.

  11. #51
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by rock on sooner View Post
    Hey, Sapp, don't you think there'll be programs tailored to fit most every need.
    E.G. the auto industry with liability, high deductions , comprehensive and collisions
    choices. I haven't seen any programs written yet but, it seems to me, to be a pretty
    straightforward approach.
    They are absolutely not tailored.. One size fits all. This has been admitted by the Obama administration and Dems. Their only response is the younger people will be "paid back" when they get older by other younger folks paying for their health care.

    What could possibly go wrong? Cough, cough... Social security.

  12. #52
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    They are absolutely not tailored.. One size fits all. This has been admitted by the Obama administration and Dems. Their only response is the younger people will be "paid back" when they get older by other younger folks paying for their health care.

    What could possibly go wrong? Cough, cough... Social security.
    Respectfully, I disagree. I think this will be part of the tweaking in the next
    few Congresses. It only stands to reason that flaws now be fixed then...
    and, I think the GOP, in particular, as they come to grips with the fact that
    the ACA is here to stay, are going to be right up front trying to put their "
    see, I fixed this" for you during the neverending political seasons to come.

  13. #53
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    We already have a huge transfer of wealth with Medicare.

    I'm not really that concerned. I'll be old eventually and at that point, the whipper snappers can subsidize my decadent lifestyle.
    Then please explain by what mechanism Medicare has worked to keep costs down? I mean if we are talking about expanding it, it must have been a huge success in that area.... Right?

    Right?

  14. #54
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by rock on sooner View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. I think this will be part of the tweaking in the next
    few Congresses. It only stands to reason that flaws now be fixed then...
    and, I think the GOP, in particular, as they come to grips with the fact that
    the ACA is here to stay, are going to be right up front trying to put their "
    see, I fixed this" for you during the neverending political seasons to come.
    It isn't a flaw. It is one of the major parts of the design. It is what makes Obamacare appear more financially sound. Take away that portion and it will collapse under its on weight.

  15. #55
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    It isn't a flaw. It is one of the major parts of the design. It is what makes Obamacare appear more financially sound. Take away that portion and it will collapse under its on weight.
    I guess we can agree to disagree because I believe that a number of
    things will be fiddled with over the next few years and the ACA will
    be viable going forward...

  16. #56
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Driving back from court in Shawnee today, I'm pretty sure most folks who saw the 70 MPH speed limit sign didn't yell WAAAARRRGGHHHH!! TYRANNY AND OPPRESSION!!!
    Obamas War on drivers!!!

  17. #57
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Obamas War on drivers!!!
    What about that section of highway in Texas aka Lone Star Autobahn
    where the limit is 85 mph? Then there's section of Montana where
    it used to be "Reasonable and Prudent".

  18. #58
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by rock on sooner View Post
    I guess we can agree to disagree because I believe that a number of
    things will be fiddled with over the next few years and the ACA will
    be viable going forward...
    Well the healthcare exchanges are supposed to be up and running October of next year. The Obama administration just gave the states another month to decide if they are going to do it themselves or just leave it to the federal government. The problem is that the states don't know what all the rules are or the costs because the rules haven't even been written yet.

    Less than a year out and no one knows what the hell is going on.

    Not really a comforting sign is it?

  19. #59

    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by rock on sooner View Post
    I guess we can agree to disagree because I believe that a number of
    things will be fiddled with over the next few years and the ACA will
    be viable going forward...
    The old white Republicans will work to lower the cost of ObamaCare to all those youngsters who voted for a hip president and free stuff. Not called the party of stupid for nothing.
    None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me.

  20. #60
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    Well the healthcare exchanges are supposed to be up and running October of next year. The Obama administration just gave the states another month to decide if they are going to do it themselves or just leave it to the federal government. The problem is that the states don't know what all the rules are or the costs because the rules haven't even been written yet.

    Less than a year out and no one knows what the hell is going on.

    Not really a comforting sign is it?
    There is a LOT of cause for concern. Interesting that a number of
    GOP governors are getting on board. The nutjob here in IA sits
    are whith his thumb up his azz.

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