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  1. #21
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    This story is more of an indication as to why we need ObamaCare--to drive these inflated costs down by force. If the hospital needs 18 administrators with salaries in excess of $400K to run, then I think there's some fat to cut somewhere.

  2. #22
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    This story is more of an indication as to why we need ObamaCare--to drive these inflated costs down by force. If the hospital needs 18 administrators with salaries in excess of $400K to run, then I think there's some fat to cut somewhere.
    Yep. I'm sure that is what government bureacracy does best... drive down costs that is. Eliminate the need for administrators and paper pushers.

    Yep. Sounds like a job for government.

  3. #23
    I'm a shootist Curly Bill's Avatar
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by TVKaleen View Post
    Yep. I'm sure that is what government bureacracy does best... drive down costs that is. Eliminate the need for administrators and paper pushers.

    Yep. Sounds like a job for government.
    Even Mid knows what he typed is wrong, but ya got to follow those talking points.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by TVKaleen View Post
    Yep. I'm sure that is what government bureacracy does best... drive down costs that is. Eliminate the need for administrators and paper pushers.

    Yep. Sounds like a job for government.
    The beauty of ObamaCare is that it actually is not a lot of government bureaucracy. It is mostly relying on the free market. It is restructing things there to help get control of costs, especially administrative costs and other factors to deliver a better healthcare product at a lower price.

  5. #25
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The beauty of ObamaCare is that it actually is not a lot of government bureaucracy. It is mostly relying on the free market. It is restructing things there to help get control of costs, especially administrative costs and other factors to deliver a better healthcare product at a lower price.
    It sure is a hit with the folks that actually hire people and stuff! LOL
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  6. #26
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Curly Bill View Post
    It sure is a hit with the folks that actually hire people and stuff! LOL
    It forces us to all play by the same rules and do something we should have been doing anyway. Now we can provide our employees health insurance and still remain competitive. The Papa John's founder is a huge ****** in that regard. He could have been providing health insurance to his employees to five cents a pie all this time.

  7. #27
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by TVKaleen View Post
    Yep. I'm sure that is what government bureacracy does best... drive down costs that is. Eliminate the need for administrators and paper pushers.

    Yep. Sounds like a job for government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The beauty of ObamaCare is that it actually is not a lot of government bureaucracy. It is mostly relying on the free market. It is restructing things there to help get control of costs, especially administrative costs and other factors to deliver a better healthcare product at a lower price.
    I do hope something like this happens, but I can think of no reason to expect it, given the history of programs created by the feds. I just hope Obamacare does not discourage setups like this Surgery Center place. One of the few good trends I've seen in health care.

  8. #28
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It forces us to all play by the same rules and do something we should have been doing anyway. Now we can provide our employees health insurance and still remain competitive. The Papa John's founder is a huge ****** in that regard. He could have been providing health insurance to his employees to five cents a pie all this time.
    You do realize he will probably just cut employees?

    Just like how everyone loves raising the minimum wage until they found out they got laid off as a result of that.

  9. #29
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result. I've studied enough history to know that when government becomes involved in something, paperwork increases and bureaucracy becomes the catch phrase of the day. Sometimes this is a necessary evil. Regulation isn't always bad. But maybe the system might not be as broken as it is if we hadn't given the medical profession a blank check in the '60s in order to get them into Medicare. Or maybe it would be worse

    If you had said, it would make people safer.. it would make things fairer... Maybe I could believe that. The first more than the second. But cheaper? Government doesn't make things cheaper. It just tries to redistribute the assets already on the table.

  10. #30
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    At the best their argument is that our current system is a failure. This sure isn't an endorsement for the pre-Obamacare status quo.

    A big complaint is related to having a 3rd party insurance but what's the solution to that? People not having insurance and going bankrupt when they have a serious health issue?


    The biggest problem I see is the complete lack of transparency in the health care industry. You doctor may send you to an untrasound and you have no way to know that that is some kind of special ultrasound that costs $5000 and isn't covered by your insurance. (Been there done that when my wife was pregnant.)

    It's not like people are in the mindset to start haggling services and prices when they're in an emergency situation...

    I know this group is trying to be transparent and that is great. That needs to be the norm although as complicated as modern medicine is it could be a lot easier said than done.

  11. #31
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The beauty of ObamaCare is that it actually is not a lot of government bureaucracy. It is mostly relying on the free market. It is restructing things there to help get control of costs, especially administrative costs and other factors to deliver a better healthcare product at a lower price.
    Okay, I'll bite. I have not read the ACA. Although I'm a bit guilty feeling on that score, I just remind myself that no one in congress has, either, and I feel better.
    How does it do those things? Can you explain the mechanism(s) to me? How does it cut admin costs? How does it deliver a better product?
    I'm a big fan of national health services, but so far the ACA supporters' bund has been long on telling us how good things were going to be and short on telling us how we'd get from A to B.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by KantoSooner View Post
    How does it cut admin costs?
    The ACA requires that 80 to 85% depending on your group of expenses paid out by insurance companies actually go to healthcare. While this really doesn't help at the hospital level, it certainly will force the insurance companies themselves to tighten their belt administratively. I can tell you I'll feel a little better about my insurance premium when I know it's not being used to fund the CEO's yacht or a corporate jet.

    How does it deliver a better product?
    If we're to believe the old capitalist maxim that an expanded marketplace leads to a more competitive and better product, then you'd have to at least have some faith that a dramatic expansion of the number of folks in the healthcare market will lead to a better product.

    I'm a big fan of national health services, but so far the ACA supporters' bund has been long on telling us how good things were going to be and short on telling us how we'd get from A to B.
    With healthcare, it's kind of insane not to take advantage of some of the economies of scale which only governments have access to. Restructuring the marketplace to lead to greater competition and more consumers within the system will hopefully be a free-market solution which works. If not, the next step is single payer or a nationalized system.

  13. #33
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by agoo758 View Post
    You do realize he will probably just cut employees?

    Just like how everyone loves raising the minimum wage until they found out they got laid off as a result of that.
    If he can cut employees and still deliver the same amount of product (pizzas) then why didn't he do it a long time ago? Isn't that what a business does already - deliver product which meets the demand with as few costs (employees) as possible?

    I can see a company going out of business because their business model doesn't work with the extra cost. I can see them raising prices (especially since all competitors are under the same pressure).

    What I can't see is an argument that they will cut employees unless 1) they weren't running efficiently to begin with or 2) they are willing to cut quality or service. If they choose the second route they probably made the wrong choice.


    Edit: If you want to argue that a company will move to offshore employees then you might have a point but that doesn't apply to a pizza restaurant (except for a few corporate workers).
    Last edited by jkjsooner; 11/16/2012 at 02:56 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The beauty of ObamaCare is that it actually is not a lot of government bureaucracy. It is mostly relying on the free market. It is restructing things there to help get control of costs, especially administrative costs and other factors to deliver a better healthcare product at a lower price.
    This is a key point...all it takes is one company to not supply heathcare and it squeezes the others that do....

    My take is the part time limit was set too high...drop it to 20 hours per week and we would see companies doing an about face and hiring far more full time (40 hour) workers to save costs...

  15. #35
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    But this talk about cutting employees brings up something I've mentioned several times.

    If your company is like mine, you've seen benefits go down year after year. With globalization and ever-decreasing employee power, it becomes less of an incentive for employees to provide those benefits. Assuming the government let them, I think the days of employee provided benefits are waning.

    I believe that in 20 years without a mandate for health insurance very few companies would still offer health insurance. Once that happened we would end up with a government run system. In that respect Obamacare might be a blessing.


    I've worked for my company for 18 years and I can't remember a single year where some benefit wasn't reduced - worse health insurance, less 401k matching, no more pension plan, no more PTO rollovers, reduction in maximum amount of PTO you can accrue per year as you become more senior, etc., etc. It's been a slow drip and my company is by no means unique.
    Last edited by jkjsooner; 11/16/2012 at 03:08 PM.

  16. #36
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    This is a key point...all it takes is one company to not supply heathcare and it squeezes the others that do....

    My take is the part time limit was set too high...drop it to 20 hours per week and we would see companies doing an about face and hiring far more full time (40 hour) workers to save costs...
    It'll be a few years before we can start tweaking it. The Republicans are going to have to get over the fact that ObamaCare is here to stay and come on board to do real problem solving once things are up and running. So long as their only goal is repealing it, what we've got is what we've got.

    The next big issue will be whether our companies can compete with this mandate in place when their foreign competitors don't have to worry about healthcare costs at all since the government provides those services at nominally at least no cost to the companies.

  17. #37
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It'll be a few years before we can start tweaking it. The Republicans are going to have to get over the fact that ObamaCare is here to stay and come on board to do real problem solving once things are up and running. So long as their only goal is repealing it, what we've got is what we've got.

    The next big issue will be whether our companies can compete with this mandate in place when their foreign competitors don't have to worry about healthcare costs at all since the government provides those services at nominally at least no cost to the companies.
    True, a lot of implications down the road...

  18. #38
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It forces us to all play by the same rules and do something we should have been doing anyway. Now we can provide our employees health insurance and still remain competitive. The Papa John's founder is a huge ****** in that regard. He could have been providing health insurance to his employees to five cents a pie all this time.
    "It forces us to all play by the same rules" and that is the problem, being co-opted into a system that you don't want to be part of. When did this kind of government intrusion become palatable to the U.S. citizens? I've heard the term "healthcare system" bantied around a lot. Where do we come up with the idea that's it's a given we need a healthcare system anymore than we need a grocery store system or automobile purchasing system? We've managed to reach this point in the history of civilization without government planned healthcare.

  19. #39
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It'll be a few years before we can start tweaking it. The Republicans are going to have to get over the fact that ObamaCare is here to stay and come on board to do real problem solving once things are up and running. So long as their only goal is repealing it, what we've got is what we've got.

    The next big issue will be whether our companies can compete with this mandate in place when their foreign competitors don't have to worry about healthcare costs at all since the government provides those services at nominally at least no cost to the companies.
    In 2014 most provisions go into effect and as the effect of more healthy, younger
    participants come on board and the overall costs begin to drop, I think, by 2015
    you'll see some tweaking and by 2018 the program will have stablized. You'll see
    visible effects on health care costs...e.g. what insurance companies offer and pay
    for, you'll see the caregivers begin to be more comfortable with one or two tests,
    as opposed to 4 or 5, also driving down costs. When the insurance companies get
    more fully on board, many caregivers will reenter the Medicare market.

    One of the tweaks, imo, will be regarding malpractise caps. Now, so many tests
    are extraneous just to cover the caregiver's liabilities.

  20. #40
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    Re: Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare

    Midtowner,
    Requiring X% go to 'healthcare' rather than 'admin costs' is not going to change much. One of those 'suits' simply slides the dollars over into a different column and off we go.

    Improved quality and lower cost in a competitive market are produced by expanded competition between the suppliers, not between the consumers. Getting more people into the system might, arguably contribute to lowering costs by allowing for economies of scale, but something that consumes 17% or so of the largest economy on earth doesn't seem to be gasping for volume in order to cover overhead. I might be wrong; just sayin'.

    'Restructuring the marketplace to lead to greater competition and more consumers within the system...' ...How? How restructured? What greater competition? What more consumers? Right now 100% of our population has a plan. It might be a crappy plan (ie, plan: "if sick, go to ER, get treated, go home stiffing hospital."), but it's a plan. The rest of us have some sort of insurance and carry the balance by ourselves. Does ACA fundamentally change this? I don't see it.

    A Parable.
    There once was a man, let's call him 'Dad'. He had knee replacement surgery. It didn't go so well. He got a staph infection in his femur. Knee had to be replaced several times. Upshot: 'Dad' doesn't walk anymore. He is wheelchair bound.
    The wheelchair is interesting. Medicare bought it. (you're limited to 2 per lifetime. Glad to know 'Dad's' got one more coming in case he wears this one out.) Here's the deal. To buy a wheelchair costs about $400. If you pay yourself. To get Medicare to pay for it, you are billed $100 a month (with $100 up front) for 12 months. 100% of which is covered by Medicare. Then, if you want to keep the chair, you pay $100 more (also covered by Medicare) and it's yours. Notice what happened? A chair with some sort of market value of $400 becomes a thing that is billed to the government at $1400. 'Dad', being a bluff old traditionalist, suggested that perhaps he could just buy it for $400 and then submit the bill to Medicare. No go, said medstore guy, Medicare must be billed by the provider. Hmm, Okay, says 'Dad', how about I take it for 4 months, get Medicare to cover those months and then 'return' the chair, but actually keep it. Medistore gets $400, I get a chair and we don't rip off the public. Medistore guy: "We've thought of that but it would be Medicare 'fraud' and we'd go to jail."
    Moral of the story? Our system is run by people who live in a parallel universe in which money grows in the little boxes in Monopoly sets. It has no meaning to them. To think that these people are somehow going to being able to keep up with insurance companies and hospitals who do, god help them, both understand and really, REALLY love money, and somehow use their purchaing power to reduce costs is to believe in, oh, the big rock candy mountain.

    So far, no one has been able to explain to me why the ACA will work. Not why national health can't work. It does, in lots of countries around the world. But our system aborning. No idea why it will work at all. Kind of interested to see how BamBam deals with it now that it's his baby for four more.
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