Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 54
  1. #1
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 MR2-Sooner86's Avatar
    Posts
    3,548
    vCash
    500

    20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Ruby Ridge Is History, But the Mindset That Led to Ruby Ridge Is Thriving

    It has been 20 years since the clash at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, an assault that led to the violent deaths of three human beings and a dog. Randy and Vicki Weaver, a Midwestern couple, had moved to the mountains of the Pacific Northwest, where they planned to live as self-sufficiently as possible. Then the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms entrapped Randy on a minor weapons violation and offered him a deal: The charge would be dismissed if he became an informant in white separatist circles. Instead Weaver skipped (or just missed) his trial (*) and moved his family to a cabin in the wilderness.

    When federal agents arrived on the scene, they shot the family dog. The Weavers' son Sam, not realizing what was going on, fired a shot in response and then fled, at which point an agent shot him in the back. Kevin Harris, a visiting friend, fired at the attacking cops and killed one. The FBI's snipers went on to wound both Randy and Harris, and one of the sharpshooters killed Vicki, firing a bullet into her head while she held her 10-month-old daughter.

    An 11-day standoff ensued. After Weaver surrendered, he and Harris were found innocent of murder. An internal report subsequently concluded that the FBI had violated the Weavers' constitutional rights. Some figures within the agency suspected that they were in the wrong well before then, though -- a few days into the siege, Danny Coulson of the FBI wrote this in a memo:

    Something to Consider
    1. Charge against Weaver is Bull ****.
    2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
    3. Vicki has no charges against her.
    4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was barking at. Some guys in camys [camouflage] shot his dog. Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the shooting [of the FBI agent]. He [Randy Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position.
    Not a bad summary.

    It isn't hard to find examples of marginal groups whose paranoia about the government drove them to violence. The tale of the Weavers shows how the government's paranoia about marginal groups can drive it to violence, too. The feds looked at a family with fringy views and perceived a threat, and as a result a woman, a boy, a dog, and one of the government's own agents were killed. It wouldn't be the last time something like that happened. A year later in Waco, the Branch Davidians' paranoia would be no match for the paranoia of the Davidians' enemies.

    I wish I could report that the authorities' fear has faded in the decades since Ruby Ridge and Waco. Instead it has been institutionalized in the fusion centers that litter the country, where everybody from Ron Paul fans to anti-fracking activists have been tarred as potential terrorists. Meanwhile, the country's police forces have been steadily more militarized. What a sad and terrifying combination.

    Elsewhere in Reason: "The Paranoid Center."

    (* I originally wrote that he simply skipped the trial, but a commenter reminds me that Weaver had been sent the wrong date. That said, Alan Bock's book on the standoff—which is in no sense sympathetic to the government—points out that there's a good chance Weaver wouldn't have shown up either way: "Randy later told friends that he was convinced he would be railroaded, that government witnesses would lie under oath, and that he would be convicted whether guilty or not." But even if Bock is right, the fact that Weaver wasn't told the right day for the court date he missed just underlines how over-the-top the government's reaction was.)
    Loved By The People
    "you are a disgusting pig and should be punished for such vile language. Would you like your mom to see that you wrote that? YOU=Disgusting pig."
    "you lack any semblance of taste and suggest substandard upbringing and education"
    "Guess what? You're a ****ing dildo!"
    "You're an asshat!"
    "racist pig by any chance?"

  2. #2
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member KABOOKIE's Avatar
    Location
    In an airplane, down by the airport.
    Posts
    7,385
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    When the Government comes for you, you will be labeled as a terrorist, pedophile, arms dealer, etc... They will blast this accusation over the state controlled media of NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN nonstop 24/7 until the people believe it to be true. This way it makes it easier on their conscious that tanks rolled in and killed your entire family. The government will then go on to say, "Look. We gave them all the time in the world to come out and admit their crimes against the US. Criminals must be punished by all means necessary."

  3. #3
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 SoonerProphet's Avatar
    Location
    Ft. Worth
    Posts
    3,883
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood


  4. #4
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 MR2-Sooner86's Avatar
    Posts
    3,548
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by KABOOKIE View Post
    When the Government comes for you, you will be labeled as a terrorist, pedophile, arms dealer, etc... They will blast this accusation over the state controlled media of NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN nonstop 24/7 until the people believe it to be true. This way it makes it easier on their conscious that tanks rolled in and killed your entire family. The government will then go on to say, "Look. We gave them all the time in the world to come out and admit their crimes against the US. Criminals must be punished by all means necessary."
    Go back to bed, America, your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed America, your goverment is in control. Here, here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America, here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their ****ing skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you! - Bill Hicks
    Loved By The People
    "you are a disgusting pig and should be punished for such vile language. Would you like your mom to see that you wrote that? YOU=Disgusting pig."
    "you lack any semblance of taste and suggest substandard upbringing and education"
    "Guess what? You're a ****ing dildo!"
    "You're an asshat!"
    "racist pig by any chance?"

  5. #5
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by KABOOKIE View Post
    When the Government comes for you, you will be labeled as a terrorist, pedophile, arms dealer, etc... They will blast this accusation over the state controlled media of NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN nonstop 24/7 until the people believe it to be true. This way it makes it easier on their conscious that tanks rolled in and killed your entire family. The government will then go on to say, "Look. We gave them all the time in the world to come out and admit their crimes against the US. Criminals must be punished by all means necessary."
    Very well said.

  6. #6
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    If you guys hate this country so much why don't you get the f**k out.

  7. #7
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
    Location
    Off the Grid
    Posts
    1,785
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    If you guys hate this country so much why don't you get the f**k out.
    don't confuse government for country.......or intrusive/kleptocracy with a small government. When this country was founded we empowered the government with a document that clearly states we can take back those powers. Not sure how though......it didn't include the instructions.
    "They replace the priest by a king, the king by an oligarchy, the oligarchy by a despot, the despot by an aristocracy, the aristocrats by a majority, the majority by a tyrant, the tyrant by oligarchs, the oligarchs by aristocrats, the aristocrats by a king, the king by a parliament, the parliament by a dictator, the dictator by a king…six thousands years of it in every language"

  8. #8
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner5030 View Post
    don't confuse government for country.......or intrusive/kleptocracy with a small government. When this country was founded we empowered the government with a document that clearly states we can take back those powers. Not sure how though......it didn't include the instructions.
    You have the power. It is called a vote.

    Some of you really need to travel and see how great we have it here. Americans are spoiled and **** and moan about the most trivial sh* t. Our government is better than any government on the planet. End of story.

  9. #9
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SCOUT's Avatar
    Location
    On the road less traveled
    Posts
    5,222
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Being the best doesn't mean there can't be improvement.

    I would also question your use of the word trivial. I don't think Ruby Ridge should be in that category.

  10. #10
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    If you guys hate this country so much why don't you get the f**k out.
    My government is not my country. This is the United States -- our country came well before our government.

  11. #11
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    You have the power. It is called a vote.

    Some of you really need to travel and see how great we have it here. Americans are spoiled and **** and moan about the most trivial sh* t. Our government is better than any government on the planet. End of story.
    For the most part, you're right. But that's like saying that your child is the smartest in the LD class. Make no mistake, our theoretical government is not only the best in the world but the best ever devised by man. The reality is much different. The reality is an abomination and should be aborted.

    As for change at the ballot box, I don't put all of the blame on the politicians. I put most if not all blame on the American people.

  12. #12
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
    Location
    OKC, OK
    Posts
    4,730
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    The militarization of our police forces is a very troubling trend.

  13. #13
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    My government is not my country. This is the United States -- our country came well before our government.
    No it didn't. The United States was formed by laws and the Constitution. Before that it belonged to the Indians.

  14. #14
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by SCOUT View Post
    Being the best doesn't mean there can't be improvement.

    I would also question your use of the word trivial. I don't think Ruby Ridge should be in that category.
    I was not referring to Ruby Ridge.

  15. #15
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    For the most part, you're right. But that's like saying that your child is the smartest in the LD class. Make no mistake, our theoretical government is not only the best in the world but the best ever devised by man. The reality is much different. The reality is an abomination and should be aborted.

    As for change at the ballot box, I don't put all of the blame on the politicians. I put most if not all blame on the American people.
    Says you. Have you travelled much?

  16. #16
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    Says you. Have you travelled much?
    Yep. Nearly everywhere in Europe, a short jaunt to Canada, Mexico a couple of times (never ever again), and a good 3/4 of the United States.

  17. #17
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Nonetheless, how good or bad our political system is should not be measured by the relative strengths and weaknesses of others. Our nation should be judged based solely on how well we measure up to our founding principles.

  18. #18
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
    Posts
    4,330
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by SicEmBaylor View Post
    Nonetheless, how good or bad our political system is should not be measured by the relative strengths and weaknesses of others. Our nation should be judged based solely on how well we measure up to our founding principles.
    You mean like not giving women the right to vote or keeping slavery intact?

    Jefferson wanted the Constitution rewritten every generation. That was probably a good idea.

  19. #19
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SCOUT's Avatar
    Location
    On the road less traveled
    Posts
    5,222
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    I was not referring to Ruby Ridge.
    Which trivial 20th anniversary of the government murdering in cold blood, were you referring to?

  20. #20
    Baylor Ambassador SicEmBaylor's Avatar
    Location
    74434
    Posts
    21,870
    vCash
    500

    Re: 20th Anniversary of the Government Murdering in Cold Blood

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    You mean like not giving women the right to vote or keeping slavery intact.

    Jefferson wanted the Constitution rewritten every generation. That was probably a good idea.
    I don't want to get into either of those arguments with you tonight because it's well out of the scope of the current discussion.

    Having studied Jefferson's political ideas in depth for years and years, I was fully aware of what you just mentioned. It's called "generational sovereignty" by the way. It didn't just include the Constitution either -- it included all laws, social conventions, and public institutions. Madison pointed out that Jefferson's concept of generational sovereignty was utterly impossible due to the inability to make any clear demarcation between generations. It's absurd of course, but there is something to say for the idea that compelling one generation to live under the laws and institutions of preceding generations is a form of tyranny. Of course my guess is that you'd be less than enthusiastic about this idea if successive generations overturned what you would consider to be social progress.

    I adore Jefferson with every fiber of my being, but I would caution against taking too many of his..eh...quirkier theories and trying to make them into concrete and practical policy ideas. Madison tried, often in vain, to do just that.

    All of that is neither here nor there. The point is that comparing our political system to others as a measuring stick for how great we are is nonsense and pointless (Compared to Sudan, WE'RE #1!!!!). The only legitimate measuring stick are the principles upon which we were founded.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •