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  1. #41
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    I'm thinking of voting for Obama for the same reason.

    I think Obama has done a fairly good job handling most of the situation. My complaints are that he's wasted tons of money on stimulus ideas that were not at all sound, and he has no desire to push people off the Govt teat, despite a dire crisis.
    Cleller here is the actual stimulus plan:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...nt_Act_of_2009

    If you read it you will see that a good chunk of it went to things like tax cuts for the average American (higher child credits, amt credits, tax cuts). He also spent a chunk of money on medical care, education, support for the poor and money to help states. His biggest problem was making it a jobs bill because it wasn't. It was more economic relief in the form of either direct or indirect payments/tax credits to the American people. Not much of the money was really wasted.

    As for the election I am not happy with either choice. I actually could live with Romney if he is elected POTUS but I do not think he is the answer. Obama has been a mediocre president. His biggest issue is on the leadership front.

  2. #42
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    Well if they were dead wrong, then they could not have predicted as you claimed...

    All this points to the fact that Obama's problem isn't the Bush recession.. Heck, that was over a couple of month into Obama's presidency. Obama's problem is the Obama recovery from the recession.

    He said that he should be held responsible if he hadn't fixed the economy in 3 years... It is one of his few positions that I completely agree with.
    I tend to read papers from the federal reserve and listen to my companies economist and I don't think I mentioned the CBO.

    The CBO has a horrible history of forecasting through recessions. Their one year numbers are fairly accurate as one would expect. After one year they have problems and are statistically way off from random walk forecast (see link below). I think the CBO tries to do a good job but if their GDP numbers are off by a few basis points everything is out the window. Plus things like supplemental spending cannot be factored into the equation because it is an unknown.

    When are you coming home?


    http://www.duke.edu/~rnau/411rand.htm


  3. #43
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    And then there is the age old question: "Do deficits matter"?

    One bright spot is that our natural gas is getting so cheap it may over ride the cheap labor markets and start bringing manufacturing back to the US. We need to develop some incentives to help the process along.
    Obama deserves a lot of credit for our low ng prices.

  4. #44
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    I'm thinking of voting for Obama for the same reason.

    I think Obama has done a fairly good job handling most of the situation. My complaints are that he's wasted tons of money on stimulus ideas that were not at all sound, and he has no desire to push people off the Govt teat, despite a dire crisis.
    My problem is he didn't do what he said he was going to do on many issues...

    He was going to bring the two sides together...yet his approach drives the two sides further apart...
    He was going to fix immigration in his first year...now, if elected, he is going to fix immigration in his first year
    He was going to make things more transparent...yet his first major accomplishment, Obamacare, was brought to life with little time for the public to learn about the issue...Nancy said it so succinctly...“We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it”

    And then there is his take on energy...it is horrendous...he wants much higher energy costs...he has said so...Chu has said so...CO2 emission reductions over anything...

    And then it is always the fault of someone else...

  5. #45
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    Cleller here is the actual stimulus plan:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...nt_Act_of_2009

    If you read it you will see that a good chunk of it went to things like tax cuts for the average American (higher child credits, amt credits, tax cuts). He also spent a chunk of money on medical care, education, support for the poor and money to help states. His biggest problem was making it a jobs bill because it wasn't. It was more economic relief in the form of either direct or indirect payments/tax credits to the American people. Not much of the money was really wasted.

    As for the election I am not happy with either choice. I actually could live with Romney if he is elected POTUS but I do not think he is the answer. Obama has been a mediocre president. His biggest issue is on the leadership front.
    You are correct...it was not a jobs bill...

  6. #46
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    I tend to read papers from the federal reserve and listen to my companies economist.

    The CBO has a horrible history of forecasting through recessions. Their one year numbers are fairly accurate as one would expect. After one year they have problems and are statistically way off from random walk forecast (see link below). I think the CBO tries to do a good job but if their GDP numbers are off by a few basis points everything is out the window. Plus things like supplemental spending cannot be factored into the equation because it is an unknown.

    When are you coming home?


    http://www.duke.edu/~rnau/411rand.htm

    Once you miss the first year due to a recession then each following year the budget will get hammered due to lower GDP going forward..

  7. #47
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Diver

    As far as the economy goes, Bernanke and Co have handled the short term goals pretty well, in my opinion. The artificially low rates, and bond buys have achieved their goal of propping up the stock market. Not all the Fed governors agree with the plan, though, so we'll just have to wait and see the long term effect it has.

    I scrolled thru the stimulus projects. Not a whole lot there that looks like a "great idea". 55 billion for education. Another example of the government getting stuck doing what used to be a family's job. That is, before the government decided to takeover the cost and care of childrearing.

    Solyndra will always be the breaking point. At the time time we gave them the cash, all the US investment firms were running away from solar companies, because there was no way for them to profit in the face of Chinese subsidized solar companies.

  8. #48
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 sappstuf's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    I tend to read papers from the federal reserve and listen to my companies economist and I don't think I mentioned the CBO.

    The CBO has a horrible history of forecasting through recessions. Their one year numbers are fairly accurate as one would expect. After one year they have problems and are statistically way off from random walk forecast (see link below). I think the CBO tries to do a good job but if their GDP numbers are off by a few basis points everything is out the window. Plus things like supplemental spending cannot be factored into the equation because it is an unknown.

    When are you coming home?


    http://www.duke.edu/~rnau/411rand.htm

    Hopefully right on schedule in July.. Afghanistan has had a rough afternoon.
    It is error alone which requires the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

  9. #49
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    Diver

    As far as the economy goes, Bernanke and Co have handled the short term goals pretty well, in my opinion. The artificially low rates, and bond buys have achieved their goal of propping up the stock market. Not all the Fed governors agree with the plan, though, so we'll just have to wait and see the long term effect it has.

    I scrolled thru the stimulus projects. Not a whole lot there that looks like a "great idea". 55 billion for education. Another example of the government getting stuck doing what used to be a family's job. That is, before the government decided to takeover the cost and care of childrearing.

    Solyndra will always be the breaking point. At the time time we gave them the cash, all the US investment firms were running away from solar companies, because there was no way for them to profit in the face of Chinese subsidized solar companies.
    My biggest issue with the fed is that they are way to focused on fighting inflation. A little inflation might be good right now. They have also made money far to cheap and it is allowing Wall Street to gamble with our capital.

    Solyndra is blown way out of proportion in my opinion. We waist billions on defense cost over runs and new weapon systems and not a word is said about it. We have cancelled programs that cost tens of billions of dollars. The US needs to invest in green technology because that is the next big market. The worlds population is growing far to fast for our resources to keep pace in the long term. China is putting huge amounts of money into green energy and they are kicking our butts. I am for all sources of energy and I think we need to be the world leader on not only on the production front but the development front as well. (If there were illegal goings on in Solyndra then people need to go to jail)

    I would have rather spent the $800 billion on infrastructure. At least we would have something to show for all that money.

  10. #50
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    Hopefully right on schedule in July.. Afghanistan has had a rough afternoon.
    I saw that and that is why I asked. Keep your head down. We are all praying for your safe return.

    Are you allowed to carry a weapon?

    Do you get extra points towards the next rank for serving in a combat zone? How is your family?

  11. #51
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    Diver

    As far as the economy goes, Bernanke and Co have handled the short term goals pretty well, in my opinion. The artificially low rates, and bond buys have achieved their goal of propping up the stock market. Not all the Fed governors agree with the plan, though, so we'll just have to wait and see the long term effect it has.

    I scrolled thru the stimulus projects. Not a whole lot there that looks like a "great idea". 55 billion for education. Another example of the government getting stuck doing what used to be a family's job. That is, before the government decided to takeover the cost and care of childrearing.

    Solyndra will always be the breaking point. At the time time we gave them the cash, all the US investment firms were running away from solar companies, because there was no way for them to profit in the face of Chinese subsidized solar companies.
    He is trapped when it comes to energy...

    The only companies that invest in the start ups are VC's....and he hates VC's because the get low tax rates...

    So he can't give additional tax breaks to the all the industry start ups...so he and Chu have to turn into VC's. and area where they have no expertise...

    And then since one company gets a sweetheart loan the other start ups in the same sector will have a harder time competing so some of them will move their capital to other areas...

    Target the sectors you want to grow...and give incentives to the companies that are successful...

  12. #52
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Solyndra was not blown out of proportion...

    They have no business trying to play Venture Capital Expert with my frigging money...

  13. #53
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 sappstuf's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    I saw that and that is why I asked. Keep your head down. We are all praying for your safe return.

    Are you allowed to carry a weapon?

    Do you get extra points towards the next rank for serving in a combat zone? How is your family?
    M4 and M9.

    I will get credit.

    Wife is pretty nervous right now, probably more than I am.
    It is error alone which requires the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

  14. #54
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    M4 and M9.

    I will get credit.

    Wife is pretty nervous right now, probably more than I am.
    They allow you to carry weapons?

  15. #55
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 sappstuf's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    They allow you to carry weapons?
    And I shot better scores than the Army people I am with...
    It is error alone which requires the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

  16. #56
    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    And?

    Obama has already extended the Bush tax cuts and many people on both sides of the isle think it will be extended again. What exactly has changed?

    Of course there is one thing that the CBO didn't account for back then... Obamacare. It will send spending through the roof. Probably $250 billion a year once it is fully up and running.
    It still doesn't address that Romney who created a similar plan as Obamacare and evidently thinks that States rights in this issue will help all Americans when we know without a doubt that it will put off the inevitable....National Healthcare. He's politically saying he will spend billions repealing Obamacare and I think he'll have as big a fight getting it repealed as President Obama did getting it passed. Reality is a bitch.

    Now that we have this idea that one isn't going to stop spending in America and that they both are going to continue to try and use our Strengths as a Super Power to outlast the many weaker economies around the Globe....we can get back to what we are really talking about.

    Who is going to have a better chance of improving the Country's Economy? Is it the Current POTUS or a weak GOP Candidate who has killed off more Companies and jobs for personal gain than anyone who has had the gall to run for POTUS?

    I have to tell you this too. I'd vote for Romney if he just didn't have so many quirks. He's gone on this Anti-Obama Campaign but rarely talks Foreign Policy. He's quick to point out mistakes others make but as far as I know...the only time he's ever admitted to a mistake is if he's told he's going to have to do damage control. He doesn't look like he can think on his feet IMO and I just don't think he's a Leader. He can't keep on track of his own Campaign Strategies and he just seems to play to whoever shows up at his rallies and wherever they are.

    The other guy....he made History and ended a War and the Economy might not be bouncing back from near disaster but hair brained Campaign schemes aren't going to turn things around in this Country. We all are going to have to be part of bailing it out. We all have to suffer a bit. I have seen the Middle Class in this Country suffer a lot. The rich? Not so much. The folks who Outsourced jobs for their bottom-line and called Americans lazy? Not so much. Now they want us to elect this GOP Clown and allow him to give them a handout so they can bring their Ill-gotten gains Home like Patriots of a War? I don't see any suffering there. Just more false promises of jobs and more false patriotism.

    The Bush Tax Cuts aren't being dropped more than likely because it creates a battle in Congress during a Campaign Year. The War is between who will be POTUS this fall at this point so I see little gain for a standing President if you think that Romney is going to extend them too? If Romney isn't going to extend them....it seems to go against his own plans to Rebuild His America. I just haven't ever seen him build anything. He's a shark IMO and Sharks are good for the Ocean and even some businesses but not for President's.

    I have him getting beat bad. Maybe Mitt will prove me wrong....but if I a Moderate feel that way about a Liberal Governor...I know I'm not alone as a Republican.

  17. #57
    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by diverdog View Post
    My biggest issue with the fed is that they are way to focused on fighting inflation. A little inflation might be good right now. They have also made money far to cheap and it is allowing Wall Street to gamble with our capital.

    Solyndra is blown way out of proportion in my opinion. We waist billions on defense cost over runs and new weapon systems and not a word is said about it. We have cancelled programs that cost tens of billions of dollars. The US needs to invest in green technology because that is the next big market. The worlds population is growing far to fast for our resources to keep pace in the long term. China is putting huge amounts of money into green energy and they are kicking our butts. I am for all sources of energy and I think we need to be the world leader on not only on the production front but the development front as well. (If there were illegal goings on in Solyndra then people need to go to jail)

    I would have rather spent the $800 billion on infrastructure. At least we would have something to show for all that money.
    There are some that think that if the US would double the NASA Budget and allow our Think Tanks some discretionary income for more R&D instead of think that it is a waste....we will again kick everyone's a$$es. The Space Race was an example of America creating an industry that was for nothing more than bragging rights that went on to create so many technological advances and attract the World's Brightest and Talented to not only work here but to live here and raise Families here.

    We need to invest in infrastructure and I would have no problem seeing a bunch of folks (Not just Hispanics either) who want to get a free pass to American Citizenship Joining Gov't Work Programs similar to FDR's that requires them to work on those projects and agree to live by our Laws in this Country, Pay taxes and work to legally become citizens via a Legal Work Card. If you want something bad enough....you'll work for it.

    If Americans don't want the jobs...we must do something to bring in a work force that will.

    Solyndra didn't work out. Yeah it was a butt load of money but don't get hung up on one failed project....maybe don't get hung up on 100 failed projects...

    We must start spending money again. I just think this idea of a small efficient Government by the GOP is just someone's small minded reality.

    That's like us saying a small efficient Military is best. We are working on ways to reduce the cost of resupplying our Military in the field and the needless risking of personnel on supply lines but we still need a massive Military to protect this Country from aggression. We won't ever have a small military as long as we remain the World's Peacekeepers. Also...you can't be the World's peacekeepers by nuking people either.

  18. #58
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopTroup View Post
    There are some that think that if the US would double the NASA Budget and allow our Think Tanks some discretionary income for more R&D instead of think that it is a waste....we will again kick everyone's a$$es. The Space Race was an example of America creating an industry that was for nothing more than bragging rights that went on to create so many technological advances and attract the World's Brightest and Talented to not only work here but to live here and raise Families here.

    We need to invest in infrastructure and I would have no problem seeing a bunch of folks (Not just Hispanics either) who want to get a free pass to American Citizenship Joining Gov't Work Programs similar to FDR's that requires them to work on those projects and agree to live by our Laws in this Country, Pay taxes and work to legally become citizens via a Legal Work Card. If you want something bad enough....you'll work for it.

    If Americans don't want the jobs...we must do something to bring in a work force that will.

    Solyndra didn't work out. Yeah it was a butt load of money but don't get hung up on one failed project....maybe don't get hung up on 100 failed projects...

    We must start spending money again. I just think this idea of a small efficient Government by the GOP is just someone's small minded reality.

    That's like us saying a small efficient Military is best. We are working on ways to reduce the cost of resupplying our Military in the field and the needless risking of personnel on supply lines but we still need a massive Military to protect this Country from aggression. We won't ever have a small military as long as we remain the World's Peacekeepers. Also...you can't be the World's peacekeepers by nuking people either.
    The US being the worlds peacekeepers is a costly, antiquated notion.

  19. #59
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 diverdog's Avatar
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    Re: Obama, debt, and history

    Quote Originally Posted by sappstuf View Post
    And I shot better scores than the Army people I am with...
    That's not hard to do? LOL.

    I carried an M9 for years. Had a great get out of jail free card when I had to carry it concealed.

    Is that quote of yours from the secret service manual?

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