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  1. #1
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SanJoaquinSooner's Avatar
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    Demographic Winter

    1. OK, I’ve skimmed through the 21 pages of the Santorum anti-birth control thread and it appears the big issue driving his suggestion was never discussed: the Demographic Winter.

    As our birthrate continues to gradually decline, we must consider the economic consequences. In a vacuum, there may be nothing wrong with a declining birthrate. But with a 12 trillion dollar federal debt to service, with the large baby boomer population moving to suck huge amounts from social security and medicare, and with state and local gov’t facing huge unfunded public employee pensions to pay out – the only way to avoid an austerity winter beyond all winters is to grow our way out of it. The big money transfer is NOT to poor people, but to old people. So merely cutting welfare checks and food stamps won’t solve it.

    Santorum wants the gov’t to encourage large families. Triple the child tax credit from $1000/child to $3000/child, he says.
    ... And then his crazy notion of banning birth control.

    There’s been lots of looking at Europe and talking about how we are looking at our future if we don’t get our **** together.

    Consider Greece. For every 100 grandparents there are 42 grandchildren. And Greeks think they all deserve to retire at age 55 (just like our public employees). Are the 42 Greek grandchildren going to be able to support the pensions and healthcare of 100 grandparents? Even if they had a strong work ethic, it’s doubtful.

    Now, worker productivity can make up for a lot. Fewer people can give more output. But you still need customers. Instead of 100 babies needing diapers, there are only 42 babies. Instead of 100 teens buying ipods and junk food at the mall, there are only 42. And when they are young adults, far fewer homes needing to be purchased. And fewer window coverings for the homes, fewer appliances, fewer insurance policies, etc etc etc.

    Germany, France, and other European countries aren’t in this bind quite as bad because they’ve imported lots of Muslims. Lots of transformational changes as a result, which will not make it easy.

    So, if looking at Europe is looking at our future, how can we avoid a demographic winter?

    Rick Santorum says, “Let’s have gov’t encourage big families!” But too many folks have come to understand that lots of kids costs lots of money and can make you poor, even with a tax credit. And yeah, if you have lots of kids, maybe they'll take care of you personally in your old age, but more likely it will be Jaunita from Guatemala who is feeding you mashed potatoes and giving you a sponge bath when you're in your 80s, not to mention paying the FICA taxes that are transferred to you.

    Even in Mexico, we have seen a drop in the birthrate from 6.8 children/woman in 1970 to 2 children/woman today. Santorum may not ignore the Pope on birth control, but more and more Mexican women are. And so do most U.S. women.

    The evangelicals and the libertarians of the Republican Party seem to be the only ones who understand that immigration will be part of the solution. We need future customers and we need a productive labor force that can compete for export dollars. There needs to be a mixture of high skilled immigrants for innovation, investments, and high-skilled labor and lower-skilled immigrants for cost efficient labor. Cost efficient labor frees up capital for expansion and the creation of higher skilled jobs.

    With the huge drop in birthrates in Mexico, much fewer immigrants will come from Mexico down the road in 15 or 20 years, with more coming from other Latin American countries and Asia.
    Last edited by SanJoaquinSooner; 1/29/2012 at 03:42 PM.
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  2. #2
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SanJoaquinSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    2. I can’t begin to tell you about the pension problem in California, where taxpayers support the lavish retirements of gov’t workers. Here is how an article in today’s paper started …

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gilbert Robles retired as a state parole agent at age 53, able to collect a $101,195 annual pension - 94 percent of his final salary. Last year, six months after he retired, the Arcadia resident accepted a political appointment with the same agency that pays an additional six figures.

    Scott Hallabrin took retirement as the top attorney for the state's ethics agency on June 29, 2009. The next day, he went back to the same post, as he prepared to watch his pension checks roll in on top of a salary.

    Los Angeles school administrator Norman Isaacs got a 35 percent raise in 2006, the year before he filed for his public pension. The increase sharply boosted his retirement benefits.

    Robles, Hallabrin and Isaacs acted within their rights under California's pension rules, which the Legislature's independent budget analyst recently described as "among the most generous in the country." That generosity comes with a price: The main pension system for public employees is expected to cost taxpayers $2.3 billion this year and has long-term obligations that it is $85 billion short of being able to fund.
    We could afford this during good times, because California has so many rich people who pay a 10% state marginal tax rate and of course five years ago before the bubble burst, your typical 3 bedroom track home sold for $500,000. Mucho property tax dinero.

    Cities are in the same dilemma with police and firefighter unions. Six-figure pensions, health benefits with low co-pays, for retirees in their 50s. Some cities may go bankrupt in order to void the union contracts, although they may still have to honor current pensioners.
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  3. #3
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Went to the Catholic church last night. (I'm Baptholic) and the priest was sermonizing partly on the government mandate that all health plans cover birth control, and also on the low birth rate for Catholics.

    He mentioned how in France the Catholics are dying out, while the Muslims are springing forth eternal.

    About 10 years ago I read that the low birth rate in Europe would be a disaster when they had to support all their retirees. Looks like that day is here.
    So, on one hand you have so many people in the world we worry about feeding them, and on the other not enough being born to support their elders. Then on both feet you've got so many muslims and Chinese expanding around the globe....

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Greece is an interesting case, because like the Califnornians, they milked and abused the system to their benefit for years, for a lucrative, early retirement and tons of benefits during employment.

    Greece also suffers a lot of brain drain and loses a lot of younger people because of the current state of their economy. A recent Economist issue said that they are not only working elsewhere because they don't have to worry about skyhigh tax rates and little income (housing prices are reportedly plummeting while property tax rates are tripling), they are also being educated elsewhere so they don't have to worry about university strikes and shutdowns in their education like the Greek schools are going through.

    Greece/California is what happens when a country/state is too liberal. That's not to say that a country/state can't be too conservative, though. I worry when Oklahoma is talking about axing income tax while our roads/bridges crumble, our schools rank low and our health sucks... not to mention how much we get ignored during presidential elections and by the federal government as a whole. Race to the Top? Space shuttle for your museum? HahahahahahaNOOOOO, not for you, little red state Oklahoma.

  5. #5
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by SanJoaquinSooner View Post
    2. I can’t begin to tell you about the pension problem in California, where taxpayers support the lavish retirements of gov’t workers. Here is how an article in today’s paper started …



    We could afford this during good times, because California has so many rich people who pay a 10% state marginal tax rate and of course five years ago before the bubble burst, your typical 3 bedroom track home sold for $500,000. Mucho property tax dinero.

    Cities are in the same dilemma with police and firefighter unions. Six-figure pensions, health benefits with low co-pays, for retirees in their 50s. Some cities may go bankrupt in order to void the union contracts, although they may still have to honor current pensioners.
    Those kind of pensions make all gov't pension holders look bad. They're not all that way.

    The Oklahoma Police Pension allows retirement after 20 years. The employee pays 7% of his pay each paycheck into this, while the participating city pays in also, something like 12-14 %. Not all cities participate, and few sheriff's offices. After 20 years, an employee gets 50% of final salary. After 30 years, 75%. To me, this seems fair enough. Everyone should pay into their pension system. The average retiree makes around $20k per year. Varies alot, though due to time served, what city, etc.

    Without the pension system, turnover on police departments would be very high, resulting in very high costs to train new officers. Its also viewed as a carrot for what is often not great pay for work with very hard hours.

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    Without the pension system, turnover on police departments would be very high, resulting in very high costs to train new officers. Its also viewed as a carrot for what is often not great pay for work with very hard hours.
    I think a lot of people forget how sh!tty police hours can be and in crappy work environments. Somebody has to be out patrolling 24 hours a day, nights, weekends, holidays, rain, snow or shine.

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    I support a demographic winter.

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SanJoaquinSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    Those kind of pensions make all gov't pension holders look bad. They're not all that way.

    The Oklahoma Police Pension allows retirement after 20 years. The employee pays 7% of his pay each paycheck into this, while the participating city pays in also, something like 12-14 %. Not all cities participate, and few sheriff's offices. After 20 years, an employee gets 50% of final salary. After 30 years, 75%. To me, this seems fair enough. Everyone should pay into their pension system. The average retiree makes around $20k per year. Varies alot, though due to time served, what city, etc.

    Without the pension system, turnover on police departments would be very high, resulting in very high costs to train new officers. Its also viewed as a carrot for what is often not great pay for work with very hard hours.
    Yeah, in California the public employee unions, including public school unions are very powerful. This great recession has cracked their armor at bit. The push is to get them to contribute more toward their retirement and health insurance premiums, and to increase the minimum retirement age.
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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SCOUT's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    I read a book years ago called, "The Great Boom Ahead." He was an economist that tied economic cycles to the age of the population. It has turned out to be pretty accurate.

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SanJoaquinSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    I support a demographic winter.
    Well now Okie, if you can get the rest of your age group to give up medicare and half of their social security we'll be good.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    We could certainly make the age 70 and reduce the benefits.

    But ultimately the pyramid scheme will have to pay the piper.

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    And if the illegals ever get on board your age group may need to put it at 100

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    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 dwarthog's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by badger View Post
    I think a lot of people forget how sh!tty police hours can be and in crappy work environments. Somebody has to be out patrolling 24 hours a day, nights, weekends, holidays, rain, snow or shine.
    Not taking anything away from their hard work, but they ain't exactly "flat footing" these days.

    Lots of other folks have crappy work environments too. Someone actually has a TV show about those kinds of jobs I believe.

  14. #14
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member cleller's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by SanJoaquinSooner View Post
    Yeah, in California the public employee unions, including public school unions are very powerful. This great recession has cracked their armor at bit. The push is to get them to contribute more toward their retirement and health insurance premiums, and to increase the minimum retirement age.
    I forgot about the medical some of these people get. Full medical in retirement? In Oklahoma, its NO medical in retirement. My wife and I now pay around $450 a month for two high deductible policies we never use. I'm sure that's helping out someone sitting in the ER after being stabbed by their common-law, though.

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by cleller View Post
    I forgot about the medical some of these people get. Full medical in retirement? In Oklahoma, its NO medical in retirement. My wife and I now pay around $450 a month for two high deductible policies we never use. I'm sure that's helping out someone sitting in the ER after being stabbed by their common-law, though.
    Glad someone mentioned this.

    Whenever the topic of public employee pensions is mentioned in the state of Oklahoma, the turd rockets they've built in California seems to be the usual demon they trot out. They always fail to mention the realities of the Oklahoma state pension system and the massive differences, including what the actual percentage of funding truly means. They seem to easily fail to include the hand in hand work pension officials have taken with state lawmakers, including the penchant of our very lawmakers to scrape sizeable percentages from funding mechanisms for pet projects and pork, only to flip the 180 and use that decrease in funding to show how public pensions are a liability to the taxpayers themselves.

    Especially when the fact of the matter is sound, reasonably funded and expenditured state-level pension systems are a GOOD thing on multiple fronts, for the retiree, the state, and the taxpayer themselves.
    People don't know what it is to be a champion.

    Oklahoma INVENTED it.

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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by SCOUT View Post
    I read a book years ago called, "The Great Boom Ahead." He was an economist that tied economic cycles to the age of the population. It has turned out to be pretty accurate.
    Amazingly....you can lead a horse to water but only the Elephant will jump in pour it all over himself, clean his butt in it and then leave the water for the jackasses to drink out of?

  17. #17
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulsa_Fireman View Post
    Glad someone mentioned this.

    Whenever the topic of public employee pensions is mentioned in the state of Oklahoma, the turd rockets they've built in California seems to be the usual demon they trot out. They always fail to mention the realities of the Oklahoma state pension system and the massive differences, including what the actual percentage of funding truly means. They seem to easily fail to include the hand in hand work pension officials have taken with state lawmakers, including the penchant of our very lawmakers to scrape sizeable percentages from funding mechanisms for pet projects and pork, only to flip the 180 and use that decrease in funding to show how public pensions are a liability to the taxpayers themselves.

    Especially when the fact of the matter is sound, reasonably funded and expenditured state-level pension systems are a GOOD thing on multiple fronts, for the retiree, the state, and the taxpayer themselves.
    I think it shocks a lot of public employees here to see other states (read: their unions) howling about contributing to their plans when Oklahoma already expects them all to.

    What's even more amazing is that even after employee contributions, and shortfalls like mentioned in this thread... it's one of the most underfunded pension systems by state in the country.

    (I partially blame the legislature with their six-years-and-full-pension personal plans, btw)

  18. #18
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    I am on the opposite side of Santo....

    I would lower the child credit to zero...the government should not be in the business of subsidizing babies....

    Once population growth hits zero or goes negative the chit will hit the fan...

    SS/Med will not be viable in it's current form...

    Inflation should be tame with less demand growth...

    Growth in the stock market will be very difficult...it will be dog eat dog...p/e's will drop and lots of money will be lost in the market....

  19. #19
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I am on the opposite side of Santo....

    I would lower the child credit to zero...the government should not be in the business of subsidizing babies....

    Once population growth hits zero or goes negative the chit will hit the fan...

    SS/Med will not be viable in it's current form...

    Inflation should be tame with less demand growth...

    Growth in the stock market will be very difficult...it will be dog eat dog...p/e's will drop and lots of money will be lost in the market....
    But as long as we keep extending the payroll tax holiday everything will work out...


  20. #20
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member SanJoaquinSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Demographic Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tulsa_Fireman View Post
    Glad someone mentioned this.

    Whenever the topic of public employee pensions is mentioned in the state of Oklahoma, the turd rockets they've built in California seems to be the usual demon they trot out. They always fail to mention the realities of the Oklahoma state pension system and the massive differences, including what the actual percentage of funding truly means. They seem to easily fail to include the hand in hand work pension officials have taken with state lawmakers, including the penchant of our very lawmakers to scrape sizeable percentages from funding mechanisms for pet projects and pork, only to flip the 180 and use that decrease in funding to show how public pensions are a liability to the taxpayers themselves.

    Especially when the fact of the matter is sound, reasonably funded and expenditured state-level pension systems are a GOOD thing on multiple fronts, for the retiree, the state, and the taxpayer themselves.
    Yeah, that's the key: the eventual payouts need to be funded under sound actuarial principles. So many were structured under rosey scenario growth rates lasting forever. What public employees deserve is negotiable but make sure it's actually funded.
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