Think back...When Mike Stoops was our DC

[thecrimsoncrusader]

And yet they were still getting torched by good offenses..

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

[NormanPride]

The problem is the right personnel goes back to coaching and evaluation and that appears to be lacking. Oklahoma has been short of award winners on the defensive side of the ball since the departure of Mike Stoops.

Where I believe Mike Stoops was important going beyond the defensive side of the ball is he was the "devil on Bob Stoops' shoulders" in a manner of speaking. He would sometimes have the capability of pushing Bob Stoops into decisions he would not otherwise make. Mike Stoops was also very good at pointing out deficiences in opposing team's special teams units. Whether he does or not, this has not seemed to be the case with Brent Venables. While Mike Stoops had a poor stint at Arizona, he "almost" effectively gave Oklahoma two head coaches at the program in terms of capability and the same goes for Mark Mangino. Those are some excellent game-planners on both sides of the balll that quite frankly have never been replaced.

The two names you mentioned, Mike and Mark, were the worst recruiters we have had in decades.

[NormanPride]

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

No, I was talking about the Texas defense this year, not the ones in the past. 2002 was not a good defense, though.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

No, I was talking about the Texas defense this year, not the ones in the past. 2002 was not a good defense, though.

The 2002 defense was as stout in the front 7 as any we've fielded. Where it suffered was at Safety (Everage injured and Bassey in over its head) and Bad Safeties = Bad Defense. That is how frajeelee a defense is.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

The two names you mentioned, Mike and Mark, were the worst recruiters we have had in decades.

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

The problem is the right personnel goes back to coaching and evaluation and that appears to be lacking. Oklahoma has been short of award winners on the defensive side of the ball since the departure of Mike Stoops.

Where I believe Mike Stoops was important going beyond the defensive side of the ball is he was the "devil on Bob Stoops' shoulders" in a manner of speaking. He would sometimes have the capability of pushing Bob Stoops into decisions he would not otherwise make. Mike Stoops was also very good at pointing out deficiences in opposing team's special teams units. Whether he does or not, this has not seemed to be the case with Brent Venables. While Mike Stoops had a poor stint at Arizona, he "almost" effectively gave Oklahoma two head coaches at the program in terms of capability and the same goes for Mark Mangino. Those are some excellent game-planners on both sides of the balll that quite frankly have never been replaced.

I have no disagreements with you on incoming talent level. It is the #1 reason why I think BV needs to go (lack of talent at linebacker). However, I think you are remembering MS and Mangino way too fondly for what they did here. Here are Mangino's recruiting classes:

1999 0|0
Jon Hawk 0|0

2000 59|52
Clif Takawana 0|0
Howard Duncan 26|24
Jerod Fields 0|0
Wes Sims 33|28

2001 103|87
Brett Rayl 8|8
Clint Werth 0|0
Jerod Fields 6|5
Jon Hawk 0|0
Kelvin Chaisson 42|34
Vince Carter 47|40

2002 49|40
Abner Estrada 4|4
Chris Messner 44|35
Jeff Lebby 1|1
Steve Taylor 0|0


This does not include the following:

Jammal Brown (Move from DT), Chester/Bush some others that moved from TE, Kempenich who could have gotten a 6th year in 2001 and didn't return, Davin Joseph (committed after Mangino left).

[toast]

So, going to cite the 2001 KSU game, 2002 OSU and ATM games? Any others? Those seem to be the same 3 that people always mention, which isn't exactly a large test base. And the 2001 KSU game was nothing more than Bill Snyder knowing how to exploit the Sooner defense for what should be very obvious reasons.

I remember Missouri having a pretty good offensive performance with Brad Smith in '02.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint

So this is an idea that has been thrown around here quite a bit. I'm okay with the thought of one person that only concentrates on evaluation and recruiting for different positions. The question is who. Cale Gundy is the recruiting coordinator and he has done fairly well with running back talent (though he has had his misses as well).

[NormanPride]

I would say they made up for it in other areas and during their stint, there were no embarrassing blow-out losses caused by the defensive side of the ball. The only one that could be pointed out would be the 2002 OU/OSU game, but OU's offense only had like 6 points in the 1st half and the second half scoring output was due to OSU going into prevent defense playing not to lose instead of to win and allowing big plays to Trent Smith, which the game ended 38-28.

We were playing with converted players in both the secondary and the OL when those guys left. DJ Wolfe had to be converted from a quality RB to a terrible corner just so we would have enough guys to field a team. The only reason our D and O didn't get MUCH worse than it could have in 05 was because those guys were gone.

I'm all for BV going. He's been a steadily poorer and poorer DC as the years go on, and it's time to change his position with the team. But Mike is definitely not the answer. We are thin enough in the secondary as it is!

[NormanPride]

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

Kind of like the osu game this year?

[NormanPride]

So this is an idea that has been thrown around here quite a bit. I'm okay with the thought of one person that only concentrates on evaluation and recruiting for different positions. The question is who. Cale Gundy is the recruiting coordinator and he has done fairly well with running back talent (though he has had his misses as well).

Why don't we have a team of guys who do nothing but recruit? As far as I can tell, you can have tons of consultants that never see the kids, but they can do all the film and evaluation work they want.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

I remember Missouri having a pretty good offensive performance with Brad Smith in '02.

Brad Smith rushed for 213 yards, but he also completed under 50% of his passes for under 200 yards and threw 3 picks with 1 TD pass, so what he had was a darn good rushing performance, but not a good game overall. In the end, Missouri had 24 points in that game in Columbia and busted out the tall grass to try to neutralize OU's speed on defense. From what we have seen lately, that team would probably score 48 on Oklahoma's defense now.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

We were playing with converted players in both the secondary and the OL when those guys left. DJ Wolfe had to be converted from a quality RB to a terrible corner just so we would have enough guys to field a team. The only reason our D and O didn't get MUCH worse than it could have in 05 was because those guys were gone.

I'm all for BV going. He's been a steadily poorer and poorer DC as the years go on, and it's time to change his position with the team. But Mike is definitely not the answer. We are thin enough in the secondary as it is!

I'm actually for BV staying IF Martinez is canned and Mike Stoops comes in. BV and Mike Stoops make a great combo. Good LB coach and a good DB coach and together, I believe they can still kick tail and take names here and now. I just think BV as the main man is just to overwhelming for him. That's the only scenario where I would want to see BV stay on though.

[NormanPride]

I'm actually for BV staying IF Martinez is canned and Mike Stoops comes in. BV and Mike Stoops make a great combo. Good LB coach and a good DB coach and together, I believe they can still kick tail and take names hear and now. I just think BV as the main man is just to overwhelming for him. That's the only scenario where I would want to see BV stay on though.

I agree that BV is a great CO-DC, and that the full job has overwhelmed him. However, I don't think bringing Mike back will help that. I just don't have any confidence in his recruiting... I love his fire and intensity, though.

I think if we found a great secondary coach that was ready for co-dc duty we could salvage this, but I don't know that Brent would take it well.

[thecrimsoncrusader]

The reason we didn't score in the 1st half was that Mangino came out with 11 straight passes against the worst Run D in the nation. Once we started handing the rock to Q (who had over 1700 yards that year) we started moving the ball but we were down 21 points.

Wrong. The BIG failure in the first half was Chuck Long was having the Sooner receiving corps running slants, curls and drags against the 103rd ranked pass defense in the nation (whatever it was, it was horrible) despite those horrible passing statistics being created by mid to deep routes. Teams absolutely tore through OSU's pass defense leading up to the Oklahoma game, but Chuck Long kept opting for the short routes despite Nate Hybl actually being healthy that season.

Oklahoma started scoring in the 2nd half because OSU went into prevent. That was blantantly obvious if you were actually at that miserable game in Stoolwater. It was absolutely inexcusable for Nate to only have 211 passing yards that day against that atrocious pass defense (not his fault). OSU was 50th in the nation in rushing defense that year BTW.

[Okie35]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

This. More teams were running the option. The spread is incredibly hard to defend even the almighty SEC defenses get torched.

[StoopTroup]

Alright mama..First name off all the great passing offenses in the big 12 when Mike was coaching..

Dude....I think she just went and took a Valium and chugged a bottle of wine. Have very Merry Christmas...Dream about your hearts desire, Christmas Eve when you retire, Santa Claus will stop and I know he'll drop Exactly what you wanted from your chimney top. So be jolly, have a holiday as gay as holly. May the ones you love be near you with the laugh of friends to cheer you. When the church bells ring, Like the angels sing, And you hear the joyful hymn they chime, Hang a wish from me on your Christmas tree For a very Merry Christmas time.

[SoonerorLater]

I've wondered about the defense for some years now. You guys bring up some good points. Is it the general talent level? Our schemes? Defensive philosophy? I did a little bit of a comparison between the Mike Stoops 2002 defense and the 2010 Venables defense. Two teams with the same record.

Quick back of the envelope calculations show the 2002 OU team gave up about 15 points a game the 2010 team about 22 ppg. A difference to be sure but does that really account for what we think we see happening on the field today? If you take into consideration the increased number of possesions for the opposition it really is almost a wash. ( I didn't go into every game but I would say the difference is about 2-3 possesions a game. Not as much as I would have thought but still significant).

The main difference I see is the number of points that OU gave up in the games they WON. The 2 losses each team had for their respective years was almost identical, the 2002 team gave up 30 & 38 in their losses, the 2010 team gave up 36 & 30. Incidentally the two teams they lost to in 2002 OSU and ATM were worse or as bad as teams we lost to in 2010, ATM & Missouri. So why is the larger opinion that our defense was better under M Stoops?

I think it's the lack of as many dominating performances. The 2002 team had 5 games they allowed less then 10 points, two of which were shutouts, one allowing only a field goal. The 2010 team only two and routinely giving up 20 points in their wins. I think why we have the general impression that our defense sucks now is because of perceived softness ie. no dominating performances. Throw in giving up the big play here and there and we have people calling for Venables head even though he probably isn't giving up many more points per possession on the average then we did when Stoops was DC.

[OU_Sooners75]

what is your opinion about how we were defending against the pass on a consistent basis? Thats one of my biggest concerns.

Now, I loved a Mike Stoops defense as much as anyone...and I think he would do wonders once again if he was here....

But there was not many great passing teams in the Big 12. Tech and that was really it. The spread was barely filtering into the Big 12 at the time.

But he did do a pretty decent job at stopping the passing game of opposition minus two games.

That said, I think he can evaluate the talent he has better than the current defensive coaching staff. He did seem to be able to take a player from one position and make them good at another. Remember D.J Wolfe? And he is only one example.