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  1. #1
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Chuck Bao's Avatar
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    Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    I was just watching the MarketWatch video on the week ahead for Asian stock markets. They say that China is expected to announce on Thursday 10.9% yoy GDP growth for the fourth quarter.

    I don't know if you are used to looking at economic numbers, but generally 4-6% growth in economic output in one year should be considered a booming economy. Above 10% growth is overheated.

    Okay, 4Q08 was a low base for comparison and I'm not sure how much to trust the official Chinese numbers.

    The salient point, though, is that China doesn't need to export to the US as much as much as we thought just a few months ago.

    Yeah, China is the new bully on the block.

    They don't even have to worry so much about pressure from the US to appreciate their currency since so many American companies have manufacturing operations there.

    That makes what Google did that much more impressive.
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    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 sooner ngintunr's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    So their stimulus plan actually did what it was suppossed to do? Genius!!

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    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 lexsooner's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    The people I know who have gone to China on business have been uniformly impressed, even in awe, and not just about the growth figures and numbers. It's more an energy, vibrancy and confidence they sensed in the air in China, a confidence among their people that it is their manifest destiny to be the dominant country on this earth, and it is only a matter of time and a sure thing. That is probably what struck them most about China - the energy and confidence, even a feeling of urgency that China has been asleep for too much of the modern era and it is their time. Hard to explain, but sort of sounds like the energy and attitude of Americans in the late 1800s and early 1900s as we were rising to become the world's only superpower. The greatest resource of any country is its people, and when there is this kind of mindset and energy, China will no doubt be a huge force for many years to come.

  4. #4
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member XingTheRubicon's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    http://finance.yahoo.com/retirement/...etire-planning





    by David Barboza
    Friday, January 8, 2010
    provided by


    James S. Chanos built one of the largest fortunes on Wall Street by foreseeing the collapse of Enron and other highflying companies whose stories were too good to be true.

    Now Mr. Chanos, a wealthy hedge fund investor, is working to bust the myth of the biggest conglomerate of all: China Inc.

    As most of the world bets on China to help lift the global economy out of recession, Mr. Chanos is warning that China's hyperstimulated economy is headed for a crash, rather than the sustained boom that most economists predict. Its surging real estate sector, buoyed by a flood of speculative capital, looks like "Dubai times 1,000 -- or worse," he frets. He even suspects that Beijing is cooking its books, faking, among other things, its eye-popping growth rates of more than 8 percent. More from NYTimes.com:

    • More on the Magic of RICO

    • To Slow Growth, China Raises an Interest Rate

    • Retailers See Holiday Sales Rebound From 2008

    "Bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses," he said in a recent appearance on CNBC. "And there's no bigger credit excess than in China." He is planning a speech later this month at the University of Oxford to drive home his point.

    As America's pre-eminent short-seller -- he bets big money that companies' strategies will fail -- Mr. Chanos's narrative runs counter to the prevailing wisdom on China. Most economists and governments expect Chinese growth momentum to continue this year, buoyed by what remains of a $586 billion government stimulus program that began last year, meant to lift exports and consumption among Chinese consumers.

    Still, betting against China will not be easy. Because foreigners are restricted from investing in stocks listed inside China, Mr. Chanos has said he is searching for other ways to make his bets, including focusing on construction- and infrastructure-related companies that sell cement, coal, steel and iron ore.

    Mr. Chanos, 51, whose hedge fund, Kynikos Associates, based in New York, has $6 billion under management, is hardly the only skeptic on China. But he is certainly the most prominent and vocal.

    For all his record of prescience -- in addition to predicting Enron's demise, he also spotted the looming problems of Tyco International, the Boston Market restaurant chain and, more recently, home builders and some of the world's biggest banks -- his detractors say that he knows little or nothing about China or its economy and that his bearish calls should be ignored.

    "I find it interesting that people who couldn't spell China 10 years ago are now experts on China," said Jim Rogers, who co-founded the Quantum Fund with George Soros and now lives in Singapore. "China is not in a bubble."

    Colleagues acknowledge that Mr. Chanos began studying China's economy in earnest only last summer and sent out e-mail messages seeking expert opinion.

    But he is tagging along with the bears, who see mounting evidence that China's stimulus package and aggressive bank lending are creating artificial demand, raising the risk of a wave of nonperforming loans.

    "In China, he seems to see the excesses, to the third and fourth power, that he's been tilting against all these decades," said Jim Grant, a longtime friend and the editor of Grant's Interest Rate Observer, who is also bearish on China. "He homes in on the excesses of the markets and profits from them. That's been his stock and trade."

    Mr. Chanos declined to be interviewed, citing his continuing research on China. But he has already been spreading the view that the China miracle is blinding investors to the risk that the country is producing far too much.

    "The Chinese," he warned in an interview in November with Politico.com, "are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell."

    In December, he appeared on CNBC to discuss how he had already begun taking short positions, hoping to profit from a China collapse.

    In recent months, a growing number of analysts, and some Chinese officials, have also warned that asset bubbles might emerge in China.

    The nation's huge stimulus program and record bank lending, estimated to have doubled last year from 2008, pumped billions of dollars into the economy, reigniting growth.

    But many analysts now say that money, along with huge foreign inflows of "speculative capital," has been funneled into the stock and real estate markets.

    A result, they say, has been soaring prices and a resumption of the building boom that was under way in early 2008 -- one that Mr. Chanos and others have called wasteful and overdone.

    "It's going to be a bust," said Gordon G. Chang, whose book, "The Coming Collapse of China" (Random House), warned in 2001 of such a crash.

    Friends and colleagues say Mr. Chanos is comfortable betting against the crowd -- even if that crowd includes the likes of Warren E. Buffett and Wilbur L. Ross Jr., two other towering figures of the investment world.

    A contrarian by nature, Mr. Chanos researches companies, pores over public filings to sift out clues to fraud and deceptive accounting, and then decides whether a stock is overvalued and ready for a fall. He has a staff of 26 in the firm's offices in New York and London, searching for other China-related information.

    "His record is impressive," said Byron R. Wien, vice chairman of Blackstone Advisory Services. "He's no fly-by-night charlatan. And I'm bullish on China."

    Mr. Chanos grew up in Milwaukee, one of three sons born to the owners of a chain of dry cleaners. At Yale, he was a pre-med student before switching to economics because of what he described as a passionate interest in the way markets operate.

    His guiding philosophy was discovered in a book called "The Contrarian Investor," according to an account of his life in "The Smartest Guys in the Room," a book that chronicled Enron's rise and downfall.

    After college, he went to Wall Street, where he worked at a series of brokerage houses before starting his own firm in 1985, out of what he later said was frustration with the way Wall Street brokers promoted stocks.

    At Kynikos Associates, he created a firm focused on betting on falling stock prices. His theories are summed up in testimony he gave to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce in 2002, after the Enron debacle. His firm, he said, looks for companies that appear to have overstated earnings, like Enron; were victims of a flawed business plan, like many Internet firms; or have been engaged in "outright fraud."

    That short-sellers are held in low regard by some on Wall Street, as well as Main Street, has long troubled him.

    Short-sellers were blamed for intensifying market sell-offs in the fall 2008, before the practice was temporarily banned. Regulators are now trying to decide whether to restrict the practice.

    Mr. Chanos often responds to critics of short-selling by pointing to the critical role they played in identifying problems at Enron, Boston Market and other "financial disasters" over the years.

    "They are often the ones wearing the white hats when it comes to looking for and identifying the bad guys," he has said.
    .





    ....and now please direct your attention to the field and J. Clayton Feaver will lead us in a moment of prayer...

    "......please protect these young men from injury and for one and all to exhibit good sportsmanship.....IN JESUS NAME WE PRAY AMEN


    -J Clayton Feaver

    Enjoy

  5. #5
    Soon to be Memphibian

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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Good article, Xing. The only real problem that most observers have with shorters is the existence of massively undervalued counterparty risk from nakeds. That's not the fault of the short position holder, though.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

  6. #6
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    I'm just going to throw this out there to get opinions. I do not pretend to be an expert on these things although I do have my opinions.

    Sometime in the mid '90s we opened up our trade to China. (I remember Clinton getting a lot of heat from conservatives about it.) The idea was that a open global marketplace will be beneficial to all.

    It seems to me that we've been under an illusion that this is beneficial to us. It has been for the short term but are we really just making the noose that will eventually hang us? It's kind of like raising government spending by increasing the deficit and not increasing taxes. It's pretty darn great for a while until the house of cards falls down.

    Would we have been better off being a little more self sufficient? Maybe our standard of living would have been lower (less Chinese junk at least) but we wouldn't be a slave to China either. Maybe we would still have some manafacturing capacity as well.

    I just see our current approach as being short-sighted. It seems to me that our standard of living will have to approach China/India. If it doesn't then we will continue to be uncompetetive (negative feedback). They will rise to make up some of the difference but I'm afraid we will have to fall to make up the rest.
    Last edited by jkjsooner; 1/18/2010 at 11:07 AM.

  7. #7
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Chuck Bao's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by XingTheRubicon View Post
    Good article. But, the viewpoint seems to be quite different. The viewpoint seems to be why Americans should invest in China. The key question in my mind is why China should invest in America.

    Or maybe it does. New job transfers to China maybe should consider the new anti-inflation measures that will be coming.

    Two years ago, I asked US embassy staff about the potential for further job relocations to Asia. He couldn't answer me.

    We will see on Thursday when the Chinese goverment releases is GDP estimates.
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  8. #8
    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    What goes up must come down...and when it comes down...I wouldn't want to be starving 3 or 4 billion people.

  9. #9
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Chuck Bao's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopTroup View Post
    What goes up must come down...and when it comes down...I wouldn't want to be starving 3 or 4 billion people.
    It is really weird in my opinion how the press is always wrong.

    In the 80s, it was about Japanese superiority and why their shares are priced on 200x price/earnings ratios and that was fine. In the early part of 2000, the consensus was Pax Americana, the American empire.

    When they start to write books about it, it is definitely time to sell.

    China may be a different case this time with China.
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    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Bao View Post
    It is really weird in my opinion how the press is always wrong.

    In the 80s, it was about Japanese superiority and why their shares are priced on 200x price/earnings ratios and that was fine. In the early part of 2000, the consensus was Pax Americana, the American empire.

    When they start to write books about it, it is definitely time to sell.

    China may be a different case this time with China.
    Yeah I remember how everyone thought Business should adapt the Japanese Culture and techniques or we wouldn't survive back then. I think we learned to be more efficient....but what didn't happen was when your Bank suddenly is responsible for your Country's economic collapse....you don't go commit Seppuku. Instead you ask for a bailout and take a bonus.

  11. #11
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Crucifax Autumn's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    I wonder what percent of their GDP comes from loan interest paid by the US....
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    I'm mindful of the production numbers that the Eastern Bloc nations used to throw out there. Does China use GAAP? Is there any accountability in the numbers?
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

  13. #13
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk#t=1m15s

    Watch this and then try to tell yourself that China's GDP "growth" isn't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

    I defy you to watch this and then tell me China isn't headed for the biggest economic bust of all time.

  14. #14
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Chuck Bao's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by OklahomaTuba View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk#t=1m15s

    Watch this and then try to tell yourself that China's GDP "growth" isn't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

    I defy you to watch this and then tell me China isn't headed for the biggest economic bust of all time.
    You know, I have been hearing that for the last 10 years. Instead, it was the US that achieved that and during the 8 years of a Republican administration.

    Hasn’t China achieved a record for the largest economic advance in the history of mankind? I would think that right-wing capitalists would applaud that free enterprise spirit that is leading China in a mad rush towards modernization. Lexsooner already mentioned that spirit of free enterprise. Or, is it unbridled greed?

    This reminds me of Thailand in the 80s and early 90s. A senior Bank of Thailand official told me that they are walking a tight rope, but the risk is worth given a window of opportunity to modernize and trickle-down effect increasing Thais’ standard of living and a new emerging middle class. Of course, Thailand fell off the tight rope in ’97, but that was for a very wrong reason of lack of support and poor advice from the World Bank and IMF.

    I am definitely not racist, but I do wonder why African or South American countries can’t open up that window of opportunity and take advantage of it like the Asian countries.

    The doom and gloom crowd will be right about China some day. There probably already is over-building and over-speculation and asset values have to tumble. The Chinese banking system is clearly over-exposed.

    The doom and gloom crowd has been wrong so far because 1) China continues to discount the world in terms of production costs and it will still discount the world even if its currency appreciates 10-20-30%, 2) there is still huge momentum in the Chinese economy with domestic demand remaining strong, 3) the Chinese government’s fiscal position is relatively strong and it can afford to stimulate the economy when needed, 4) China’s foreign reserves are massive and there is no chance that capital in the country has an outlet for capital flight.

    We get a ripple of fear move through the Asian stock markets occasionally when news comes out that China bank lending growth is largely to property and stock market speculators. This and the very strong economic growth will very likely result in another round of tightening by the Chinese central government.

    Didn’t the clip mention that all of those empty condo units were sold to investors? The state made money on them. The problem is that investors want to sell them at a high price, too expensive for the locals to buy. But this is Inner Mongolia that we are talking about! The clip doesn’t show Shiang Hai or Southern China or Beijing and the suburbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Sooner
    I'm mindful of the production numbers that the Eastern Bloc nations used to throw out there. Does China use GAAP? Is there any accountability in the numbers?
    First of all, GAAP is only as good as the auditing firm verifying the accounts. Enron taught us that lesson. No doubt, there is a transparency issue for both economic numbers and those of listed firms.

    I am still pretty sure that Eastern Bloc nations never achieved such a massive economic build up in such a short time. I haven’t been to China in a long time, but the evidence looks pretty compelling. I don’t know if you trust the big international brokers’ research reports. I read them and they are saying that the economic growth is real and sustainable for at least the near term.
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  15. #15
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member soonerhubs's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Am I the only one seeing the irony of Tuba citing an Al Jazeera news source?

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Crucifax Autumn's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Holy crap...That is funny!
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Bao View Post
    Didn’t the clip mention that all of those empty condo units were sold to investors?
    I'm sure thats what the lenninist minder following the camera crew around told them.

    But again, you're talking about GDP growth. What better way to juice GDP growth than building a city where no one lives.

    Building massive high rises and malls in Shanghai that are empty. Yeah, they have those too, built by their government to put people to work.

    But in the end, its all unsustainable, just like the current admins tripling of the debt is to do the same thing.

  18. #18
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerhubler View Post
    Am I the only one seeing the irony of Tuba citing an Al Jazeera news source?
    Yeah, i'm gonna need to talk a shower after watching that.

  19. #19
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member
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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    Pretty good analysis of China from December:

    China Faces Crash Scenario


    Problems in China continue to mount. Money supply is growing rampantly out of control, property prices are in a bubble, exports are weak, commodity speculation is pervasive, and GDP growth is more of a mirage than real.
    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...-scenario.html

    Sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it???

  20. #20
    Vacuums eat while yelling

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    Re: Wow! China 4Q09 GDP growth projected at 10.9%

    One thing they don't have, however, is chicks.

    Millions of Chinese men lament that they are not rich enough, nor good enough, to find a bride, because when China decided to force couples to only have one child, guess which gender couples chose to keep and which gender couples chose to abort.

    Sad but true. Biting em in the arse right about now with a generation of Little Emperors.

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