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  1. #1
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member tommieharris91's Avatar
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    Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    "If your dream ain't bigger than you, there's a problem with your dream." -Deion Sanders

  2. #2
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    I can see the argument, though I disagree with it.

    I'm relatively sure that there's no prohibition against a criminal suspect volunteering information without an attorney present as is. You just can't continue interrogation without counsel present if the suspect has requested an attorney. That seems reasonable to me-an unsophisticated person may not understand the ramifications of the Fifth Amendment's protections even if they HAVE been properly Mirandized.

    Dunno. One of you actual lawyers want to chime in and tell me if I'm incorrect there?
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

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    CEO, Devastation, Inc. John Kochtoston's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Sooner View Post
    I can see the argument, though I disagree with it.

    I'm relatively sure that there's no prohibition against a criminal suspect volunteering information without an attorney present as is. You just can't continue interrogation without counsel present if the suspect has requested an attorney. That seems reasonable to me-an unsophisticated person may not understand the ramifications of the Fifth Amendment's protections even if they HAVE been properly Mirandized.

    Dunno. One of you actual lawyers want to chime in and tell me if I'm incorrect there?
    Not yet a lawyer, but my recollection from Crim Pro is that, under Jackson and a couple of other decisions, if a suspect requests a lawyer, police must discontinue questioning for a reasonable time period, unless the suspect reinitiates the communication.

    The way I'm reading the proposed change, is that, if Jackson is overturned, the police could keep questioning a suspect, even if he requests a lawyer. He's still not compelled to answer, of course, but, IMHO, a badgering cop could get just most suspects to start talking, especially the ones Jackson was trying to protect.

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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Sorry, wasn't clear-the administration's argument seems to be based around a supposition that the ruling as currently interpreted prevented a willing suspect from talking. That doesn't seem to hold water.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

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    CEO, Devastation, Inc. John Kochtoston's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Sooner View Post
    Sorry, wasn't clear-the administration's argument seems to be based around a supposition that the ruling as currently interpreted prevented a willing suspect from talking. That doesn't seem to hold water.
    Don't think it's your fault, it's the article's:

    FTA:

    "The Michigan vs Jackson ruling in 1986 established that, if a defendants have a lawyer or have asked for one to be present, police may not interview them until the lawyer is present.

    Any such questioning cannot be used in court even if the suspect agrees to waive his right to a lawyer because he would have made that decision without legal counsel, said the Supreme Court."


    Those grafs seem to serve cross-purposes. The first states that, if a suspect has a lawyer or asks for one, then questioning must cease. That's the state of the law now, as I understand it.

    The second either claims that either: 1) a defendant can't waive his right to a lawyer without first talking to a lawyer. I'm pretty sure this is NOT the state of the law. OR

    2) The suspect cannot ask for a lawyer, and then change his mind, without first talking to a lawyer. IIRC, he can change his mind if he reinitiates the conversation, but the police cannot keep badgering him to change his mind, and then later claim he waive his rights to a lawyer.

    This, IMHO, is the way things should be, and I'd be disappointed in my President and his Justice Department if they took the position that police can keep badgering a suspect even after he's asked for a lawyer.

    I'm also not really happy that the Obama Justice Dept. seems to be taking this view of of VI (though they'll hardly be the first J.D. to take this position, R or D):

    "The sixth amendment of the US constitution protects the right of criminal suspects to be "represented by counsel", but the Obama regime argues that this merely means to "protect the adversary process" in a criminal trial."

    The adversarial process is pretty meaningless if a suspect makes indefensible admissions while being interrogated.

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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Agreed on the point that the police should not be able to coerce someone into waiving their right to have an attorney present.

    An unsophisticated suspect may make an incriminating statement without realizing it. He is entitled to get the advice of counsel on what he can (and should) remain silent on.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

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    CEO, Devastation, Inc. John Kochtoston's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    BTW, Froz, if you're not sick of these types of debates yet, you will be.

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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Heh. See what's sick is I LOVE this stuff.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Okla-homey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Under Jackson, if a perp lawyers-up, all questioning must cease. period.

    I think that's a pretty good rule myself, 'cuz cops lie to suspects. Stuff like, "well, you know your accomplices have confessed and said you were in on it. waddyahave to say for yourself?" Whether they have or not.
    "Discourage litigation. Persuade your neighbors to compromise whenever they can. Point out to them how the nominal winner is often a real loser; in fees, expenses and waste of time." -- Abraham Lincoln, (1809-1865) Lawyer and President who saved the United States.

    "Without opportunities on the part of the poor to obtain expert legal advice, it is idle to talk of equality before the law"-- Justice Chas. Evans Hughes

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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by Okla-homey View Post
    Under Jackson, if a perp lawyers-up, all questioning must cease. period.

    I think that's a pretty good rule myself, 'cuz cops lie to suspects. Stuff like, "well, you know your accomplices have confessed and said you were in on it. waddyahave to say for yourself?" Whether they have or not.
    See, that's what both Charles and I agree the rule is and should be. If the plaintiff starts volunteering information without further questioning, though, all bets are off, no?

    99.98% of all...

    I'm fairly disappointed that the administration is pushing for a reveral of Jackson.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

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    CEO, Devastation, Inc. John Kochtoston's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Sooner View Post
    Heh. See what's sick is I LOVE this stuff.
    Famous last words, good sir.

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    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    I must have been asleep when he came over to the house.

  13. #13
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TUSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    I believe that even under Jackson, a statement is admissible if the suspect "blurts it out" even tho' the cops honor his right to a lawyer by not asking more questions. (I should know, but I'm not 100% sure.) The Constitution guarantees the right to remain silent, not the ability --- to borrow from somebody's stand-up comedy routine.
    You tell me it's the institution. Well, you know, you'd better free your mind instead.
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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member AlbqSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Jackson should NOT be overruled IMHO. An "unsophisticated" citizen can easily misapprehend what his situation is when he is sitting handcuffed to a chair in a police department with anywhere from one to four cops feeding him a bunch of stuff to scare the bejeebers outta him. By "unsophisticated" I don't mean stump dumb, though some accuseds are. I mean someone who is in an unfamiliar setting being questioned by people who have much more training in interrogation than the accused.

    A classic case out of Tulsa many years ago involved a jailer who was a lay preacher. He went to a guy suspected in a murder case and talked to him very "lovingly" and then asked if they should pray together. When the subject agreed, the jailer prayed for a period of time during which he asked God to give them some insight to the whereabouts of the missing victim so that she could have "a proper Christian burial". The accused began to cry and told them where to find the body.

    That case was actually about the "Priest/penitent" privilege, but the types of things cops are trained to do to manipulate a confession from an accused who has previously requested a lawyer to advise him are highly effective techniques.

    Bottom line, as I have said before many times, is that the FIRST thing they advise when reciting the Miranda warning is "You have the right to remain silent". I submit that the reason they recite that first is because it is the MOST important right you have. The right to an attorney can be a great help in getting an accused to retain the right to remain silent.
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    Sooner All-World StoopTroup's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Judge Judy don't give a **** about your rights.

    You better snap to in her Court cause it won't matter one bit...

  16. #16
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member King Crimson's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    i'd be more impressed with all this protestation if "civil rights" hadn't just been discovered by some in the last 100 days.

    where were we in 2003?
    “someone's controlling the vibes!"--apache dropout

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member TUSooner's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by King Crimson View Post
    i'd be more impressed with all this protestation if "civil rights" hadn't just been discovered by some in the last 100 days.

    where were we in 2003?
    Ain't that the truth. I didn't want to stir the pot, but it is amazing that Obama is "raping the Constitution" when the same anti-Jackson argument from a GOP prez would be lauded as "tough on crime and a needed check liberal on judicial activism."
    You tell me it's the institution. Well, you know, you'd better free your mind instead.
    (Shoo-bee doo-wah)

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member King Crimson's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by TUSooner View Post
    Ain't that the truth. I didn't want to stir the pot, but it is amazing that Obama is "raping the Constitution" when the same anti-Jackson argument from a GOP prez would be lauded as "tough on crime and a needed check liberal on judicial activism."
    tru dat.
    “someone's controlling the vibes!"--apache dropout

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member tommieharris91's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    Quote Originally Posted by TUSooner View Post
    Ain't that the truth. I didn't want to stir the pot, but it is amazing that Obama is "raping the Constitution" when the same anti-Jackson argument from a GOP prez would be lauded as "tough on crime and a needed check liberal on judicial activism."
    You'll like this.
    "If your dream ain't bigger than you, there's a problem with your dream." -Deion Sanders

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    SoonerFans.com Elite Member JLEW1818's Avatar
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    Re: Obama: Taking away your civil liberties

    My issue is let people do as they please. If they break the law, crush them on it. I don't need anyone in this world to support me.

    I'll take care of myself, others can do their thing. I don' really care.

    If you end up poor, leave the country or get a job. aint hard.

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