My thoughts on Kelvin Sampson...

[the_ouskull]

...but Joe C. and Boren seem to have a way of instilling loyalty; at least for coaches that haven't worn out their welcome, (cough) K.S.

I wrote this as a response to another thread, a quote from which I just listed, but wanted to post it as its own thread. This has been a long time coming. This is my Kelvin Sampson rant.

-----

Joe C. could have gotten rid of Kelvin when he got there in 1998, and nobody would have thought very much of it. Sure, Kelvin won National Coach of the Year (for the first of TWO times while he was at Oklahoma...) his first season, but he "did that with Billy's players," etc, etc... But what ELSE did he do?

1995: 1st Round NCAA upset loss to Manhattan.
1996: 1st Round NCAA beatdown at the hands of Temple.
1997: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Mizzou team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Stanford.
1998: Healthy run in the conference tournament, losing to a hot Kansas team in the finals. 1st Round NCAA loss to Indiana in a game that wasn't as close as the score indicated.

Tack onto all of that, the fact that he wasn't "Joe C's Guy," and yeah, getting rid of Sampson would have been really, really easy.

He didn't.

Joe C did what Joe C does. He recognized talent.

We were rewarded with a Sweet 16 trip in 1999, and then the beginning of the Hollis Price era at OU. We know how that went. Final Four. Elite Eight. Kelvin also picked up that 2nd Coach of the Year trophy that I mentioned earlier.

So what happened? My thoughts and honest opinion.

He was frustrated (remember that word, I'll be coming back to it) by the (behind-the-scenes) events of the end of the 2004 season, leading into 2005, and culminating with his "departure," in 2006. Namely, Lavender and Foust weren't exactly "Kelvin Guys," and the trouble that they got themselves into, both while at OU and afterwards, reflects that as well. So does the entire 2005 season, which ended with a PAINFUL 2nd Round loss to Utah. (And before any numbn*ts says, "coaching," Kelvin was, and is, PROVEN as a coach of the game of basketball. Lay the blame where it's due.)

How does a team that could roll a lineup of:

1 - Drew Lavender
2 - Lawrence McKenzie
3 - Nate Carter
4 - Kevin Bookout
5 - Taj Grey

Bench: Johnnie Gilbert, Brandon Foust, Terrell Everett, and a young David Godbold, and even Longar Longar, for all of those of you who inexplicably loved him.

...end up losing to Andrew Bogut-led Utah?

That team had no cohesiveness whatsoever. If you want to put THAT on Sampson, feel free, because it does fall under the duties of the job title "Coach" to a degree... But, he was tired of it; sick and tired of it, and at the end of the 2005 season, he thought it would end... but it didn't. Look at the major differences between the 2005 team and the 2006 team.

- No Drew, no Foust. They left. They weren't Kelvin guys to start with. We REALLY needed Drew that next season, but not if he was going to spend the majority of the season being "I don't give a sh*t" Drew instead of "Buzzer Beater at K-State" Drew. Where this really hurt us was, coupled with the loss of Deangelo Alexander the previous year, also a tough year, Kelvin was starting to wonder if he wasn't going about things the wrong way. For anybody who is asked to be a leader of young people, this is a common question; but it can also be a question that can debilitate your thought process if you allow it to.
- No glue. We lost Gilbert. He (more-or-less single-handedly) held together than 2005 team. With his loss, the 2006 team suffered from a lack of toughness and featured two guys who thought that they were auditioning for the NBA (Everett and Gray) and possibly the most skilled of them all, and the hardest worker on the team, frustrated to death by the entire situation, and concentrating on other arenas again. (Bookout)
- The closest thing that we had to a true point guard was Austin Johnson, a true freshman who played the 2 in high school. Then we had Everett. He had the best handle of anybody on the team. Sadly, he also felt like he had to show that at every available opportunity. Our two best players were post players, and we had Terrell "Maybe the Bobcats Will Love Me" Everett jacking up shots to the tune of a 5.1 percent drop in his overall FG%, and a 5.8% drop in his 3pt%. (He also shot 2, and 1.5 more shots per game in those categories, respectively.) In addition, he averaged a full 1.3 TO's per game more, despite playing in all of the games from the year before, and starting in all but one. He wasn't "learning the game" at that point. What he was doing was trying to show that he was a "balla."

So, between the losses of personnel, and the losses on the court, and also, Kelvin's personal losses off of the court, which should NEVER be discounted, things weren't terribly easy for Kelvin during the era ending in the 2006 season. Back-to-back years of Hell. How many of you have gone through that at a job? Did you start questioning yourself? Did you start wondering what you needed to do differently to make things work again; to make them "right" again?

Kelvin knew. He needed to WIN. And, in order to win at the college level, you need excellent coaching (check) and skilled players (not so fast there, check mark guy...) teaching and learning in state-of-the-art facilities.

But, in his (I'm back to that word from the beginning now... this is what's known as closure; or, coming full circle, if you prefer that particular idiom...) frustration, he forgot about WHO he was, and what had gotten him to where he was.

- And he cheated. There. I said it. He knew the rules and he didn't follow them. It led to his departure from OU for Indiana. It led to his termination from Indiana. But, honestly, that's not the guy that we hired, and that's not the guy that I remember from all of the dealings that I had with him. To me, he's still the all-time winningest coach in OU history, and the coach with the best record in the conference tournament too.

...and I feel like he deserves a little more respect than he tends to get for what he accomplished while he was here at OU. A lot of you that weren't fans until Stoops got hired as the football coach may not remember the John Blake years, but I do. I also remember still giving a sh*t about OU athletics, 1) because that's what I do, but 2) because of Kelvin Sampson, and the way he coached and his teams played. He came to a football school, and, at least for a few years, turned it into a basketball school, with a little help from a head coach who thought that changing not only trigger men, but entire guns, during a game would be a good idea.

If that, and my feelings regarding Kelvin Sampson puts me in the minority... well, so does my I.Q. I'll manage.

-----

If you read all of this, thanks for your time. If you didn't, keep on chanting your clever variation of "fire Kelvin Sampson," or "screw Kelvin Sampson" every time the opportunity for you to try to forget his legacy presents itself. It'll be easier for me to spot you that way.

the_ouskull

[StoopTroup]

I feel bad for the guys that poured their hearts out for him and OU, only to later have to defend the actions of Kelvin himself.


Forgive him.

Forget him.

[oumartin]

kelvin=Blah!


got his coaching a@@ handed to him anytime he went up against anyone with a clue

[the_ouskull]

I feel bad for the guys that poured their hearts out for him and OU, only to later have to defend the actions of Kelvin himself.

Forgive him.

Forget him.

Agreed, and sad about my personal membership in said category. I don't like the way that things ended with the man, but I refuse to attack him. It's not like he was a BAD coach; like a Howard or a John Blake. He was a really, really good; even great, coach... but a flawed human being, as are we all. (Hail Mary. Let he without sin, etc, etc...) I don't have to like the situation to understand it. I don't have to understand the previous situation to be happy with the current one, either. We lost a great one. We gained a really good, young, confident one with the potential for greatness and the pedigree to back that up.

Forgive him? In time. Forget him? Not happening. Move on? Absolutely. As of Day 1. I'm an OU fan first. I just don't want the accomplishments of (arguably) the best basketball coach in OU history being sullied by every gap-toothed mouthbreather that thinks they're funny enough to try to attack Sampson, press "Submit Reply," and draw a crowd. If they're "man" enough to say what they have to say about Kelvin, then they should man up to my rebuttals, too, no? The truth is, there is a (rather large) group of people who aren't knowledgeable enough about the game to realize, or who don't date as far back in their OU fandom (thanks, Bob Stoops!) to remember the entire scope of what Kelvin both accomplished, and meant, for OU.

That's all.

the_ouskull

[soonervegas]

I think I read an article to where kelvin really started the questionable stuff with bookouts recruitment and later. Which is weird to me seeing how he was coming off his greatest successes with some under the radar players (white, price, brown, selvy, and mcgee) What was his reasoning to fudge the rules to hit some higher level recruits? Was he afraid he had to keep up that standard yearly?

I think kelvin bought in to his mystic a little and turned away from what made him successful his 1st 20 years.

As great as kelvin was (and I was a big fan from 1999 on) I think we somehow managed to upgrade.

[MojoRisen]

Kelvin, clearly knew how to coach.. I hated his style well before the scandal's.

I just didn't like the dude or his style & now his crookedness and stupidity.

[the_ouskull]

Kelvin, clearly knew how to coach.. I hated his style well before the scandal's.

Uh, which is it? I mean, if you admit that he knew how to coach, which he did, but also say that you hated his style, now I'm confused. Most fans of a team don't have a big problem with winning.

As for the other post, I think that his reasoning was to avoid the problems that I detailed above. Players like Terrell Everett wanted to "get theirs," often at the expense of the team. Kelvin wanted to go after high profile guys that, 1) would bring a buzz back to the program to kind of wash the stink of the past couple of seasons away, and 2) would be easier for marginally good (like Everett) player to defer to, for the good of team. I mean, that's it as best as I can figure, and I promise you I've analyzed the entire situation in my head literally hundreds of times. In college basketball, recruiting = winning, and, after a few years of not winning, especially after being close enough to taste that championship in 2002, he wanted to make a change; ANY change, as long as it helped OU win... as long as it helped Kelvin win.

What was his reasoning to fudge the rules to hit some higher level recruits? Was he afraid he had to keep up that standard yearly?

Yes, he was. When he got to OU, he had no football program to speak of. Once Stoops got here, interest in OU basketball started to wane again, and signing bad*ss recruiting classes always arouses interest in a flagging program. Also, with Bob winning it all in his season season, Kelvin started to feel a bit of pressure. Not in the conventional (or stereotypical) sense, like with alums and Joe C. pressuring him, "Win or you're gone," or anything like that. I'm sure, though, that it was just professional pressure. Kelvin is a competitor, and with football winning, and fans turning away from basketball again, ALONG with everything that I've already mentioned, I believe that he felt like he needed to make a big splash.

I'll take your responses off of the air...

the_ouskull

[birddog]

FIRE CALVIN SIMPSON!!!!

he poured every ounce of energy into this program and i really appreciate him for that. he had to put robert allison on the court for god's sake!

i never cared much that he cheated either. i was just surprised he'd use a university phone. it's like he didn't even try to avoid being caught.

he got lazy with recruiting and he was too lazy to make sure he covered his butt (phone records etc.)

sounds like he was worn the f out.

[birddog]

I just don't want the accomplishments of (arguably) the best basketball coach in OU history being sullied by every gap-toothed mouthbreather that thinks they're funny enough to try to attack Sampson, press "Submit Reply," and draw a crowd. If they're "man" enough to say what they have to say about Kelvin, then they should man up to my rebuttals, too, no?
the_ouskull

martin, i think he's talking about you behind your back. and RIGHT TO YOUR FACE!

[oumartin]

I'm too lazy to read the skullz long winded replies!
What did Kelvin accomplish at OU?
year 1. Loss to Manhattan in first round.
year 2. His team got abused by John Cheney(the team was baffled) in round 1
year 3. A double digit loss to Stanford in the first round
year 4. A first round loss to Indiana
year 5. Hey, two wins in the tournament! bout damn time but you can't score 50 against the eventual national champion. Sampsons first good win in the tourney though against arizona.
year 6. 1 win in the tourney and a loss against Purdue.
year 7. 1st round loss to Indiana State!
year 8. Final four year(obviously the most talent KS team). Beat a good Arizona team by double digits as well. Good year but lost to a team they had no business losing to. Everyone in American had them penciled in to win the whole thing after making the final four.
year 9. Elite 8(again the same guys on the floor) got absolutely embarrassed by Syracuse' zone. Its not that we lost but how we lost
year 10. NIT, nuff said
year 11. Hey, lets lose to Utah in the second round.
Year 12. First round loss to Milwaukee Wisconsin

now, granted in 1999 they overachieved. They beat a good Arizona team in the tourney. Good job Kelvin

in 2002 they were the most talented team left and didn't even get to play for it all!
There is a pattern with Sampson. He lost several first round games as a higher seed and many times when his teams would be scoring in the 40's in a NCAA touney game he would look baffled on the sideline!

Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.

The argument will be made about how good his teams played on defense and how they dived for every lose ball and hustled and scraped and were physical.
Let me ask you this. If he was coaching another team would we view him the same way or would you say he coached dirty ball?

I guess what I am trying to say is that once it gets tourney time you better be able to do more than play defense. You better know how to score and you better know how to coach. Many times the last two didnt' happen.

[cheezyq]

I agree with skull's analysis, nearly completely. Maybe it was just the fact that OU was a football school, but the guy was never able to successfully recruit high school talent. That's probably what led to the perception that he couldn't "develop" players. His most talented players were either thugs and left, or they were JUCO transfers. It's hard to blame that all on Sampson, but he certainly deserves some of the blame, as Tubbs was able to draw talent to OU during the height of OU football. Capel has clearly shown that he's a capable recruiter, too.

He WAS a great coach because he could get so much out of so little talent. The problem was that when he faced other good coaches who also had talented teams, it was just too much.

I loved the lock-down defense that we played at times under Sampson. But you have to admit that sometimes the games were...well...boring. We played sloppy offense a lot of the time. Most of that was due to the fact that we rarely had players with good ball-handling skills, or above average athleticism.

The bottom line was the KS was a great coach. But I don't blame Sooner fans for being a bit upset at how he left OU. The fact is, whatever his intentions or frustrations, OU basketball was left in shambles when he bolted for Indiana. Then for him to follow up his cheating at OU with cheating at Indiana, it's hard to feel sorry for a guy who doesn't learn from his mistakes. If it weren't for Capel, I imagine that there would be a near-obsessive hatred of KS. But with the promise that this team has shown under Capel, I think most of OU fans are merely indifferent at KS.

[bluedogok]

Uh, which is it? I mean, if you admit that he knew how to coach, which he did, but also say that you hated his style, now I'm confused. Most fans of a team don't have a big problem with winning.

You don't have to like a coaches "style" to appreciate the the talent. I can appreciate how good of a coach Bob Knight was and not like his "style", most were respectful of what former Princeton coach Pete Carril did there but most people didn't like his style of play. Most of us who didn't like his style probably grew up on the Tubbs era of OU basketball. But as we have all witnessed, the game has changed to football on hardwood, and I think most of us don't like that game as much as the more athletic variety that Tubbs OU teams, Tark's UNLV, Richardson's Arkansas teams and a few others played.

Just like Tubbs seemed to "wear out" towards the end of his tenure, I think Calvin did as well. There just seems to be a much shorter "shelf life" on basketball coaches at football schools than there is for the football coaches or basketball coaches at basketball schools. I was ready for him to go before the sanctions, after the last Final Four I just never felt like he was going to get beyond that level and it was time for a new regime...luckily Indiana bailed Joe C. out.

[the_ouskull]

I'm too lazy to read the skullz long winded replies!

Well, ignoring the opposing side to an argument ALWAYS strengthens your own argument... [is there still a rolleyes emoticon?]

What did Kelvin accomplish at OU?

Aside from keeping the athletic department's head above water until Stoops was hired? Aside from being the two-time NCAA Coach of the Year? Aside from having "less-skilled" players, and still having teams that played over their heads? Let's see...

Year 1. Loss to Manhattan in first round.

Shouldn't have happened, but after missing the dance in 1993, it was nice to put the shoes on again...

year 2. His team got abused by John Cheney (the team was baffled) in round 1

MANY teams got baffled by Temple's matchup zone under Cheney. The fact that we didn't have any (truly) capable ball handlers hurt us more than "coaching" did, though. But, that's easily overlooked by the detractors who just go to Wikipedia to get their game stats for lists...

year 3. A double digit loss to Stanford in the first round

How did Stanford do that season, anyway? Also, weren't they the higher-seeded team? (6 to 11.) Didn't they have two future NBA players on their roster? Just checking. I'm pretty sure that Brevin Knight and Mark Madsen played in the league. I'm also pretty sure that they had a shot at winning it all before they ran into Andre Miller and Utah. ...but what do I know?

year 4. A first round loss to Indiana

...'cause Bobby Knight never beat anybody in the tournament...

year 5. Hey, two wins in the tournament! bout damn time but you can't score 50 against the eventual national champion. Sampsons first good win in the tourney though against arizona.

Calling a win against Arizona in the tournament a "good win" is like calling a blocked shot "a good defensive play." But, it was our first Sweet 16. (The first of three that Kelvin made while at OU.)

year 6. 1 win in the tourney and a loss against Purdue.

This one hurt. No question. Sometimes they do. But, it was a Purdue team that beat a hot Gonzaga team in the following round before eventually falling to Wisconsin in the Elite Eight.

year 7. 1st round loss to Indiana State!

This one REALLY hurt. There's not a lot else to say.

year 8. Final four year(obviously the most talent KS team). Beat a good Arizona team by double digits as well. Good year but lost to a team they had no business losing to. Everyone in American had them penciled in to win the whole thing after making the final four.

Until we ran into an 8-5 situation in the Indiana game. If that game had been called consistently; good OR bad, we would have won it.

year 9. Elite 8(again the same guys on the floor) got absolutely embarrassed by Syracuse' zone. Its not that we lost but how we lost

Is it how everybody ELSE lost too? 'cause Syracuse won it all that year, right?

year 10. NIT, nuff said

Injuries and transfers. TOTALLY Kelvin's fault. The fact that, at one point, we were suiting up 6 scholarship players for games? TOTALLY Kelvin's fault...

year 11. Hey, lets lose to Utah in the second round.

Utah and Andrew Bogut, mind you. But, for more on 2004-2006, maybe you SHOULD read my (you say "long-winded," I say, for those not currently in the know, "informational") posts after all, even though they're crippling to your "Kelvin sucks" argument...

Year 12. First round loss to Milwaukee Wisconsin

The end of an era, literally. Losing this game was my signal that something was truly wrong; moreso than what the players were telling me, both on and off the court.

Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Billy Tubbs, apparently the gold standard of Oklahoma basketball coaching, 'cause, even though his teams also underachieved, at least they scored points, [rolleyes] averaged 23 and change wins per season. And, if you're going to say that any coach with "x" player should make a deep run, but not give the same coach credit for bringing in and developing said player(s), that's just hypocritical...

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.

Most teams consider the Sweet 16 a "good run." I guess that you just hold the program to higher standards...

The argument will be made about how good his teams played on defense and how they dived for every lose ball and hustled and scraped and were physical.

I'm going to ignore, as I have been doing, your errors in spelling, context, etc.. and just say, "The argument SHOULD be made..." Players don't play defense like that anymore. They did for Kelvin.

Let me ask you this. If he was coaching another team would we view him the same way or would you say he coached dirty ball?

AS a coach, there is a fine line between physical and dirty. Just because the other team doesn't like it, doesn't make it dirty, and just because your team isn't as skilled offensively as the NBA All-Star team doesn't mean that all they do is foul.

I guess what I am trying to say is that once it gets tourney time you better be able to do more than play defense. You better know how to score and you better know how to coach. Many times the last two didnt' happen.

Which sucks, because I was counting on Kelvin to come out and shoot a good percentage. I was counting on him not to turn the ball over. I was... wait, what do you mean he wasn't playing the games?

A coach can only put his / her players in the position to make plays. If they're unable to make said plays, the coach can really only deflect so much of that blame. If you miss a layup, is it the fault of your coach? If you can't handle / pass the ball well enough to beat a trapping zone, or full-court man-to-man pressure, is it the fault of your coach? I guess it all depends on what you want from your coach. I don't want mine shooting or handling the ball. I want him coaching and handling players. THAT is something at which Kelvin more than excelled for most of his career at OU.

the_ouskull

[badger]

I think KS is a good coach that caught up in the things that are wrong with major money college sports. KS did a great job being a mentor to young men as far as guiding them to success here and prepare them for life after college.

Then, the ugly side of major money college sports kicks in. Fans, administrators, recruits and opposing coaches alike point to the first/second round tourney losses and ask in a far-too-loud voice why OU under KS hasn't advanced to greater heights.

So, KS does what he can to shut them up and goes to desperate measures to shut them up that doesn't abide by the rules of the game.

Thus, the legacy of a good person and a good coach gets tarnished with his rule breaking.

His son, Kellen, seems on track to becoming a head coach someday too. Kellen looks a lot like daddy, but seems to have his mother's charm and temperament (i.e. you won't see Kellen throw his suit, red tie and other things in frustration). I'm sure KS has told his son to stay true to himself and not make the same mistakes he did when he let the ugly side of major money college sports influence his usually sound judgment.

That being said, OU dumped KS at the perfect time. We avoid NCAA's wrath and get a good rising star coach in the process. It's a great time to be a Sooner

[stoopified]

Kelvin Sampson? Who dat? Do you perhaps mean Calvin Simpson? If so, he is THE SUCC.

[bluedogok]

Yeah, Kellen is the one that I really felt sorry for in the immediate aftermath. He seems like a smart kid with a high basketball intellect as well. I have no doubt that he learned from his father's mistakes and hopefully will not do anything close to that because he unfortunately will be viewed by some for much of his coaching career (at least initially) based on his father's transgressions, which isn't fair.

[Ton Loc]

...
Sampson did at OU what any coach with a clue could do at OU. He averaged a little over 20 wins a season and made the NCAA. Any coach with Hollis, Quannis, Selvy, Ace and those guys would have made deep tourney runs.

Basically you are judged as a Coach by what you do in the Tourney.
2 good runs in the tourney in 12 years and several first round exists.
....

Alright Alright nobody get mad but...

You could almost throw a certain football coach's name in where Sampson's is. Except for the National Championship part that is.

I really thought the skull was going to make this point.

No doubt, I found myself defending KS ALOT during his tenure. A lot of the times it was to retards and sometimes it was to people that actually knew basketball.

I never minded the sometimes lousy offense because I loved the defense and hustle. And all those losses in the tournament hurt just as much as all of the losses in the more recent bowl game losses. Made my "job" of supporting KS as OU's coach all the harder.

Then came the success. Final Four and Elite Eight. Of course our losses in those tourneys almost broke my soul. Really, we lost to IndiFREAKINana!!!!!

Then back to hard times with crappy offense and good defense. Then the phone calls. Really I have to agree, it was almost like he wanted to get caught. We give him a break and it turns out he kept doing it.

I washed my hands of defending the guy. He went to Indiana, I shrugged my shoulders in relief that it was over.

The guy WAS a good/great coach that a lot of people didn't like because of his style. They mixed up boring style with bad coach. Then he got caught cheating. And he was gone. The thing is though, the people that didn't like his style never really got what they wanted. Sure he was gone, but he didn't get fired. And he never got truly exposed as a BAD coach.

I'm glad he's gone and I love the people we have now, but he was never a terrible coach.

Doesn't matter much but that's my opinion. (and the longest post I've ever written)

[the_ouskull]

(and the longest post I've ever written)

I should add that to my sig, too...

"the_ouskull really drags the best out of me. -- Ton Loc"

...well, I mean, it's a variation of it, right?

[tommieharris91]

I should add that to my sig, too...

"the_ouskull really drags the best out of me. -- Ton Loc"

...well, I mean, it's a variation of it, right?

I'm guessing this post was from an imposter the_ouskull, because the real the_ouskull would have signed it the_ouskull.

[Desert Sapper]

I liked Kelvin and think he was a great basketball coach, but I (like most Sooner fans) was extremely disappointed by some of the things he did both here and at IU. More than the OU roundball coach, he was a role model, and I think he really let some people down.

I'm happy that we were fortunate enough to get Capel, though. That really lessens a lot of the sting of Kelvin going out like he did.