So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

[the_ouskull]

Why are those your only two options? It's either 82 games or 6 with you? Really?

Look, I admire your enthusiasm and wish that I could share it. However, being older, knowing a bit more about the game, and being a natural pessimist, I can't. Just 'cause you picked a basketball knowledge fight on the internet with the wrong person doesn't mean that you don't have anything to bring to the conversation. It just means that you were wrong about a few things.

For example: You were right about Durant's scoring average. It was 20.3 for the season. (I didn't look it up. I was off by 0.9 pts. Sue.)

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_...eer_stats.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...?playerId=3202

But, at the same time, I did ask you (what I feel is) a legitimate question...

What is it about this team that's changed since last season, that shows you a 10-game improvement over last season's record?

Also, for the record, Hella (earlier) wasn't saying that he wants to see this team lose, long-term. But, frankly, losing in the short term, considering the anemic depth in the 2009 draft, will make us a better team in the long run. I don't want to see us lose either. It will hurt attendance for the first few years of the team, which will make us look bad in the wake of the Hornets thing, and it could potentially hurt the morale of a young team, in addition to making us look bad to future pro franchises...

But, for the long-term success of this team, the more chances we can get at a Blake Griffin, Ricky Rubio, or a Blake Mullens, the better off we'll be.

(I'd include a few more names, but their painful weaknesses are a large part of why this is a weak draft class...

- Demar DeRozen: Can't go left. Seriously. At all.
- Brandon Jennings: Can't get into college. May not want to come back to the U.S., or be allowed to, depending on his overseas contract.
- Jrue Holliday: Lacks true point skills, and has an inconsistent jumper.
- Hasheem Thabeet: If he was alone in a gym, he couldn't hit a layup, and he'd have trouble getting the rebound.)

In this year's draft, after the first 5-8 picks, it thins out QUICKLY. We want one of those picks. If 30 wins can still land us in the Top 5, guaranteed, then I hope I'm wrong and that we win 30. But, I'm not thinking about the 2008 season. I'm thinking about the 2010 season.

the_ouskull

[starclassic tama]

you know more about the game according to yourself. the reasons i think this team is 10 games better is really simple. most of the time, athletes make their biggest jump between their rookie and second year. i think with durant and jeff green getting a year older and better, and joe smith giving us some scoring inside, coupled with russell westbrook who is a terrific defender and the move and new enthusiasm propels this team to something like a 31-51 record.

i just think you are underestimating durant's talent. but anyways, everyone else feel free to discuss our team. the thunder coming here is one of the coolest things that has ever happened to me. college football is my number one sport, with the NBA being second so this is amazing that we have our own team.

GO THUNDER

[badger]

Throughout NBA history, teams with great players have still had mediocre overall records.


Pau Gasol, NBA rookie of the year, averaged at least 17 points per game in his career with the Memphis Grizzlies since 2001, yet the team achived less than 30 wins four times during that span. Of course, he is now with the Lakers and winning a lot more easily alongside Kobe.


Ray Allen, now an NBA champion with the Celtics, had his humble, losing career start in Milwaukee. His first few seasons, the team hovered in the 20s and 30s for wins. This was despite the fact that during those seasons, he had 17, 19 and rookie season drub of 13 ppg, respectively. Great player, losing team.


Now we come to the whorn (or do you have to be at UT for more than one season to be a whorn, lol?) Like the guys mentioned above, Durant played most of the games last season and had a high scoring average of about 20 ppg. He also got Rookie of the Year honors. Of course, you don't get another high draft pick by having a good season. 20 wins. That's like one win for every point Durant averages!

I've seen single players turn franchises around (Jason Kidd is good at that - see Mavs after he got drafted by them), but I think the first few games of the season will be very telling on how the rest of the season will go. The players, I think, are not happy about moving to OKC (Cue Clay tp say: "Boo hoo.") I am not sure how the move and other player transactions during the offseason (the Sonics had a LOT of draft picks) will effect team chemistry. All I know is - 20 wins. You need a change in the team with a record like that, so I'm eager to see what this season holds in store.

[starclassic tama]

why do you think the players are not happy about the move?

[the_ouskull]

I would hardly call Pau Gasol "great." Ray Allen has been on the cusp of "great" at times during his career, but it could be argued that he was the 4th best player on that roster last year, behind the obvious two and The Ultimate Merc.

Jason Kidd, while a borderline "great" player at one point, is far, far from it now, and, lest you forget, he split the ROY with Grant Hill that year, probably shouldn't have, and as a rookie played on a team with two established talents in Jamal Mashburn and Jimmy Jackson. Mashburn was hitting 24 points per game and chipping in 4 boards and 4 assists, and Jackson was averaging 25/5/4 before going down with an injury 50ish games into the year. Also, Popeye Jones led the league in offensive boards that year (easy to do with Kidd shooting) and Roy Tarpley hit for 13 ppg and about 8 boards per.

Yes, Kidd was good, but "great?" Even for a rookie, 11 points, 5 boards, and 8 dimes a game (plus 2 steals) is really good, but not "great" when you're shooting 38%, and 27% from the arc.

In fact, if he weren't such a good rebounder for his size, Kidd would merely be (and, in my opinion, still is) considered a "really good" player. The guy has never averaged 20 points in a season, has never shot over 43% in a season, and, for all of the hype about his passing, has only averaged 10 dimes in a season 3 times. (Although in fairness, after his rookie year, he's never averaged less than 8 in a season either...)

The fact is, once he stopped being a fearsome defender, he was just another overpaid guy who can't shoot a lick.

And that turnaround in 1994-1995 from 1993-1994 was the reason that the Kidd split the ROY with Grant Hill, 'cause Grant Hill was great. Kidd... Well, Quinn Buckner coached the Mavs in 1993-1994, so that should tell you just about all you need to know.

the_ouskull

[starclassic tama]

why do you think the players are not happy about the move?

i'm still curious about this badger. did you just make it up and try to pass it off as fact?

[badger]

i'm still curious about this badger. did you just make it up and try to pass it off as fact?

Sorry, just now getting around to reading this. I'm not blowing you off - I'm just finding football more interesting than basketball right now.

I didn't make up the fact that some Sonics were upset about moving. For nearly a month before the Sonics move, I was searching the news wire daily for developments in a thread I called "Sonicwatch" to try to figure out what was going on. This little gem really PO'd the Seattle fans:

Seattle P-I: Bennett to Sonics players: 'Boo hoo'

Bennett was told via e-mail that some players were upset about leaving Seattle by Oklahoma-based public relations consultant Brent Gooden. Clay responded via e-mail with the words "Boo hoo." Gooden responded back to "Boo hoo" with:

Great response. I would play wherever for half of the lowest paid player on the team.

I thought that was general knowledge, but then again, I realize that most people weren't following this case as much as I was a few months ago.

There's also opposing players to factor in, as the Sonics weren't the only ones playing basketball in Seattle, but with the 82 game schedule, ever team makes a stop in every town. Here's an example of player reaction there.

Seattle P-I: Shaq shares in fans' dismay

It's dumb, it's stupid. They should have to wait from the bottom like everyone else.... Seattle has tradition, the Space Needle, and there's water here. Oklahoma City's a college town. You're not going to have the TV market there... When I think of Seattle, I think of G.P., the Reign Man, Sikma, Lenny Wilkens... The Oklahoma City Sonics? When my son asks me about that, I'll say there's no such thing.

All players upset about the move and hate OKC? Of course not. Remember Chris Paul talking to Charles Barkley back when OKC had the Hornets? Well, I cannot find a Youtube of the interview, but many news sources cited that Paul encouraged Barkley to come to OKC and see for himself how nice it was, but kidded that Barkley was "too lazy" to carry through. Paul has said this about OKC:

Hornets official site: Paul interview in 2007

I love it. Last year, when I went home to Winston-Salem after our season ended, the first night I went to sleep and woke up the next morning, it was almost like this NBA lifestyle was a whole other life. It was like it was a dream, and then I woke up in my bed at home... I’m from a smaller town and my family is all there. I’m used to living in a place where I see people every day who I know well. And I’m such a homebody. I’m very content just playing basketball, watching TV and spending time with my family.

Barkley later backtracked said OKC deserved the Hornets.

NewsOK: Barkley compliments Hornets, Oklahoma City

I've got to take my hat off to Oklahoma City. What they've done for that team has made it exciting and fun. For them to open their hearts up, sell out every game, for a team that everybody assumed they would have for only one year, is pretty good. I personally think they should stay there. No. 1, New Orleans wasn't supporting the team. And New Orleans is not ready for a professional sports franchise right and will not be anytime soon.

I know you don't like it when I post longer posts, star, but you seemed to be suggesting that I didn't have facts and articles to back up what I was saying, so I felt the need to cite everything. The truth, from multiple sources is that not all players were enthusiastic about the prospect of moving from Seattle to Oklahoma City. The truth is that some players and former players enjoyed Oklahoma City's atmosphere when the Hornets were here because of fan support and a smaller town feel. The truth is that along the same lines, some current and former players disliked Oklahoma City for the same reason.

Not everyone likes this move as far as players go, and that, star, is the truth, as I have shown and repeatedly cited above.

[badger]

I would hardly call Pau Gasol "great." Ray Allen has been on the cusp of "great" at times during his career, but it could be argued that he was the 4th best player on that roster last year, behind the obvious two and The Ultimate Merc.

Skullman, Gasol is not solely a role player, but worthy of all-star nomination/selection, which is why I used the word "great." There are much better words to describe basketball players, like "legendary," so by no means am I giving Gasol Michael Jordan status. I just think he is an above-average player and a team leader, two qualities that make him great.

An All-Star player will not mean a good over team record though, which is what I was getting at. Team chemistry, fan support and other intangibles will also effect the winning.

[the_ouskull]

Is Gasol being listed as a 5, which is what he's listed at, or a 4, which more accurately describes his game? As a 4, he doesn't sniff the All-Star team, in either conference. As a 5, he does, but that says as much about the lack of quality big men as it does his own play, IMHumbleO.

...and make no mistake about it. His experiences on the Spanish national team, under current Coach Reneses, and former coaches Miguel, Sainz, Imbroda, Lopez, and Hernandez have a great deal to do with his outlook on the game, and his style of play. I'm a Gasol fan. I just don't think that "great" is a label for which he's ready. That's all. It's a difference of opinion, not an argument.

STUPID!

And yes, a number of players across the league don't consider Oklahoma City a "pro town" simply because it's never had a "pro" team. It's a minor league / college town to them. (And for the record, it's a college town to them because of the successes of the University of Oklahoma. Oklahoma State has NOTHING to do with that particular opinion.)

But also, consider the source... Shaq is a freaking moron. Until Kobe, and then D-Wade, the referee's darling, came along, his nickname to me was "Floor," not "Shaq." ("Floor" 'cause he kept getting swept out of the playoffs...)

the_ouskull

[SoonerKnight]

maybe they can surprise everyone.

[birddog]

i believe their preseason game is on ksbi cox 52 tonight.

[SoonerTroll]

www.oklahomacitythunderforum.com

[tommieharris91]

Is Gasol being listed as a 5, which is what he's listed at, or a 4, which more accurately describes his game? As a 4, he doesn't sniff the All-Star team, in either conference. As a 5, he does, but that says as much about the lack of quality big men as it does his own play, IMHumbleO.

...and make no mistake about it. His experiences on the Spanish national team, under current Coach Reneses, and former coaches Miguel, Sainz, Imbroda, Lopez, and Hernandez have a great deal to do with his outlook on the game, and his style of play. I'm a Gasol fan. I just don't think that "great" is a label for which he's ready. That's all. It's a difference of opinion, not an argument.

STUPID!

And yes, a number of players across the league don't consider Oklahoma City a "pro town" simply because it's never had a "pro" team. It's a minor league / college town to them. (And for the record, it's a college town to them because of the successes of the University of Oklahoma. Oklahoma State has NOTHING to do with that particular opinion.)

But also, consider the source... Shaq is a freaking moron. Until Kobe, and then D-Wade, the referee's darling, came along, his nickname to me was "Floor," not "Shaq." ("Floor" 'cause he kept getting swept out of the playoffs...)

the_ouskull

Why did you taint all of your great posts in this thread by writing the words Oklahoma State?

[starclassic tama]

that thunder board is a mess. how many different subforums do they have? there should be one forum.

[the_ouskull]

Well, our resident "thinks he knows ball guy" (me) is obviously wrong about the Thunder. A noted analyst picked them to finish with a winning record, and, because of his status, we should all listen immediately.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/st...t&lid=tab7pos2

I have never felt more confident in my pre-preseason prediction.

the_ouskull

[starclassic tama]

well the season is over and i predicted durant to jump from 20.3 to 25+ per game (he finished with 25.3) and the team to win 31. we fell short of my win total by 8, but since the beginning of the calendar year we have been playing better than most 31 win teams.

[Collier11]

With the team as is we can win 30 next year, with a good draft or one solid pick up via free agency we could challenge for 40 wins but I still dont think we are ready for the playoffs.

For anyone who doesnt have a subscription, there was a really good and positive article about the Thunder in ESPN the mag last week. I will look for a link...

[the_ouskull]

We ended the season on a much, much stronger note than we finished it... something that a lot of talented young teams with good home crowds will do. Our core group of players is not only talented, but also very young and inexperienced. Therefore, they're learning new things about the game every single day. Some vets, it just gets old hat to them. Hungry, TALENTED, young players, and often their teams, will improve exponentially.

But, sadly, even if every player on this roster hits their max potential as a player, together, and we get a monster coaching job out of Brooks, we're still a second-round out for years to come.

Yes, I LOVED the Krstic get. He and Sefolosha were great, great gets for us. A big body that can move and score down low, and at least contest the shot of opposing posts, and a defensive-minded, athletic wing who plays like his "give-a-sh*tter" has never been broken. I was there for his swat-from-behind of Kobe. LOVED it.

..but even if we throw out a lineup of:

1 - Westbrook
2 - Sefolosha
3 - Durant
4 - Green
5 - Krstic

..then we're still looking at a thin, inexperienced bench, nobody in our top seven players that is comfortable handling full-court pressure for more than a few trips up the court, and 2 1/2 good defensive players (Westbrook, Sefolosha, and Green) in the starting five. Also, Green can't continue to play entire seasons at the four weighing only 235 pounds.

Collison has maxed out as a player, and Watson will only decline from here on out. Green, on the other hand, may have a higher ceiling than anybody on the team; including Durant. If Westbrook can cut down on the turnovers, and get more comfortable running the offense, then we have a chance to be a solid, young team with a lot of athletes.

I forgot what else I was going to say, so I'm just going to bail here.

the_ouskull