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  1. #1
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    So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Needless to say, what with us drafting #4 overall this past season, we're a few years away. Our roster reads like a who's-who of good-to-great college players who either haven't achieved their pro potential, or who are too young/missing something to be(come) great.

    Our most likely starting lineup is:

    1 - Earl Watson
    2 - Kevin Durant
    3 - Jeff Green
    4 - Chris Wilcox
    5 - Nick Collison

    I can see this lineup getting a lot of the minutes. It's the most well-rounded in terms of ability and experience. However, I don't think that this is our best lineup. I think that our best lineup will be:

    1 - Russell Westbrook
    2 - Kyle Weaver
    3 - Kevin Durant
    4 - Jeff Green
    5 - Chris Wilcox

    It's not a very strong offensive lineup, to be sure, and the frontcourt, with the exception of Durant, who, while fairly tall, is very small, even for a 3, is hella undersized. BUT, this lineup will be very quick, and probably our best defensive lineup, which, at this point, is something we need to both sell to our team, and pride ourselves on.

    -- I think that, in time, Westbrook will be a decent; a solid NBA player. I don't think he's a future All-Star or anything like that. (If it weren't for the fan voting, I wouldn't think that Durant is either though...) But, he's a h*ll of an athlete, and he's a solid defender who takes playing defense seriously. His outside shooting is suspect, and he's going to have trouble defending stronger/taller guards, even with his quickness, but his athleticism and upside make him our best long-term option at the point guard.

    -- As for Kyle Weaver, I think that he's going to be one of the steals of this draft. He's already a really good defender, and, like Westbrook, someone who will commit to playing defense for the length of the court. With our starting backcourt being capable defenders, we can slow down the pace of the games and cover up our offensive "issues." But, Weaver also has a suspect outside shot, and, frankly, unlike Westbrook, I don't know if it will ever come around.

    -- A lot of people see Durant as "the next big thing." Yes, he was dominant in college, and yes, he's a very skilled offensive player in terms of getting his shots. BUT, he's not very committed on the defensive end of the court, and putting him up against opposing 2's every night, even with his size and length (heh, yeah I did...) isn't going to be good for his confidence, or for our team. When he's not able to stop his man from scoring, he tends to try to make up for it by scoring more himself. Until he takes the defensive end of the court even more seriously than he takes the offensive end, he'll never be a star at the NBA level.

    Some people see a rookie scoring 20 ppg, and they douse their drawers. I see a rookie who put up 205 three's, but only shot them at a 28% clip. He settles for jump shots too often. Of the Top 30 scorers in the NBA, only 2 shot a higher FT percentage than Durant. (Dirk and Caron Butler) So, while he was the 28th leading scorer in the NBA, he was only the 84th most efficient (based off of John Hollinger's PER rating... Google it) player in the league; a full 12 spots behind fellow rookie Al Horford, by the way.

    So what he basically is, is an offensive player who will get, and believe me, take, his shots... whether or not it helps his team. I'm not saying that he plays selfishly. Don't misunderstand me. It's not like he had a lot of options to pass to anyway. But, if he's going to be an elite player, he has to be more willing to let the game come to him instead of taking bad shots just because nobody else is going to take (hit?) them.

    For somebody who (allegedly) has such a high basketball IQ, he sure seems willing to settle for jumpers is all that I'm saying. And, his rebounding stats would back this up as well. He's between 6'9" and 6'11", depending on who you ask, and his wingspan is even greater than that, yet, because he spends so much of his time on the perimeter, he's only shooting 5.6 FT's per game, and he's only averaging 4.4 rpg.

    He is, without a doubt, our best player, but he's far from a great player (he's 56th in the league in combined points/rebounds/assists, behind the likes of Mo Williams, Andre Miller, and Mike Dunleavy Jr) at this point. Whether or not he will become that player is completely up to him, and it's up to his off-season work ethic. Until his tapeworm-havin' body is up to the task of going to the basket, and going to work around the basket, more often, he's going to always be a good-but-not-great player.

    -- Jeff Green is hard to figure. He's the bad kind of tweener; either a slow three, or an undersized four. Given that, in 28 minutes per game, he only averaged 4.7 boards, I'm going to have to lean towards both. He is another one of those great college players that may or may not become a good pro. He has trouble getting open looks, contributing to a poor shooting percentage. Also, for someone who is supposed to be such a solid passer, I'd like to see him with more than 1.5 apg. (Heck, even the black hole Durant averaged 2.4 per.) Green either needs to bulk up so that he can bang, or he needs to slim down so that he can more effectively guard other 3's. Until he leaves Tweener Land, he's going to struggle at the NBA level.

    -- Chris Wilcox is a name that a lot of Sooner fans remember for the way that he dominated the Final Four that we should have won a few years back. However, that dominance has not translated nearly as well to the next level. He's not nearly as muscular when compared to NBA players as he was compared to the slow, white kids Kansas through at him, and his athleticism has been what's keeping him around, frankly. And, even that hasn't made for his being a competent defender. He's only averaging 0.6 bpg, and twice as many turnovers as assists. At least offensively he plays within himself. 95.3% of his shot attempts came from within the basket area. However, he only shoots 68.4% from the FT line. And, given that he's going to be 26 at the start of this season, we can realistically only expect another 2-4 years of his highlight reel dunks before his athleticism starts to fade, leaving him as an immobile, undersized center who can't shoot and can't play defense on 4's or 5's. This is a make-or-break year for him. Personally, I think that we need to trade him, and then trade back for him. When he came over from the Clippers halfway through the 2005-06 season, he posted averages that were well above his career highs all across the board, even averaging 79% from the line. In order for us to play well, he has to learn how to guard somebody, fast.

    That's enough for now. I'll discuss the other players later...

    the_ouskull
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  2. #2
    Mmm... ...ribs.

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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Wait a minute. We aren't going to trade for Chris Paul, Tyson Chandler and David West? Out.
    Well, crap.

  3. #3
    Mmm... ...ribs.

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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Who want two in the corner? Good seats folks, two in the corner...
    Well, crap.

  4. #4
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member birddog's Avatar
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    i'd like to know exactly what should be the future of carlesimo.

    is he a caretaker that will be replaced once the transition to okc is complete?

    i've heard he's a great teacher for the younger players but at some point we'll need something more than that. will he last atleast two more years? is he actually a good coach?

  5. #5
    Sooner Starter Hella Sideburns's Avatar
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    I think you're off on durant, he was great at the end of last season when he started to get more comfortable. Add in that he was options no. 1, 2 and 3 on a bad team and of course he was a chucker. I really think that eventually his 15 foot-to the basket game will be pretty unstoppable.

    Westbrook will be the rare point guard that will play late in close games, because his defense is airtight. I think that Durant can turn into a good defender, too. Kobe got nothing but crap about his defense until he decided he wanted to be a good defender and that was all it took. Durant, if you look at his past, has already proven that he will work hard. Once things slow down for him, we'll get a better look at what kind of player he'll be.

  6. #6
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    You're right about Durant finding his stride late in the season...

    ...except for one thing...

    From March to April, his shooting percentage dropped from 52.6% to 46% and his FT% went from 90% to 84%. (Both are still very good, though...) And, while his numbers, other than the percentages, did go up across the board, so did his minutes per game. From March to April, he got an almost 4 minute per game increase, which increased his shots per game by 5, and his points per game by 2.5 on the nose.

    But, statistically speaking, March was an anomaly for him. Perhaps he "hit his groove." More than likely, he just got hot for a while. 'cause, in March, other than his shooting percentage, all of his other stats were lower or the same, and the 3.7 ppg increase from Feb to March can easily be explained by the 15% jump in his FG%.

    Something else that's hurting KD's game right now, in my humble opinion, is the fact that he's not a natural 3-point shooter, and his percentages bear that out. In 19 wins, he shot 41% from the arc, compared to 24% in the team's 61 losses in which he played.

    He also fouled less, turned the ball over less, and played better defensively in our wins... He's got to learn to better use his length (yeah, I did) defensively, while still moving his feet, and not doing one or the other. Someone with his height and wingspan should be pulling down more than 4 boards, 1 steal and 1 block per game. He's just not nearly as aggressive defensively as he is offensively, and, considering how often he settles for jumpers, his offensive aggressiveness is overrated too. In no month (other than the 1 game played in October) did he average more than 1.8 fouls per game. That's an indicator of defensive aggressiveness.

    He's a little, skinny kid, trying to bang bodies with grown men. Until he bulks up, he's going to be treated like a little, skinny kid, trying to bang bodies with grown men. This team will go as KD goes, for certain. But, until he realizes that this isn't college, he's going to be a good, not great player. Considering how young, and how tiny he is, it may take a few years. We get to watch someone with the potential to be great. Whether we watch him grow up and become a man, or burn out as a child is up to him... but, right now, he is to weightlifting what Vince Young was to the Wonderlic.

    As for Carlesimo... I think that he's a great coach for such a young team. I don't know of anybody else that's out there right now that could do a better job of teaching the game to these young players. BUT, is he a championship-caliber coach? His resume, both at Seton Hall, and in the pros, leads me to believe "no." The closest he got was in 1989, losing to Michigan and Rumeal Robinson in the finals.

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

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  7. #7
    Sooner Starter Hella Sideburns's Avatar
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    it was also his first year playing an NBA schedule. 30+ games to 80+ for a guy that weighs 190 pounds or whatever, hell, it's a wonder he played at all down the stretch.

    i know we're going to lose 60 games this year and that it's going to be a while before we have a winner, so I'm just trying to look at the silver lining on everything.

    Really, the key is probably adding 15-20 pounds. He'll never be a 40% outside shooter, but i think he'll hit enough eventually to pull the defense out, and if he adds some muscle, suddenly he'll be able to take it to the basket in the league like he did in college.

    he's such a unique body type, i really have high hopes for him.

  8. #8
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    It's a delicate balance he'll have to find between putting on the necessary weight to handle the physicality of the NBA and not losing any of his cardiovascular conditioning due to adding weight. Also, adding weight can have an effect on your outside shot, which, considering his current percentages, would be disastrous. I understand that you're trying to look on the bright side, and I admire that in people. However, I'm a bit more of a realist (many would say pessimist) when it comes to things such as this...

    The potential is totally there. Either way, feast or famine, I'm going to be excited to watch and see what, and why, things happen. That's a large part of why I love the game... Also, didn't we just pick up Robert Swift? The homeless man's Bill Walton, circa 1986?

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

    skull makes people want to go sit in the corner and hang their heads in shame when he responds to their posts. -- birddog, 01/09

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    My staff is getting tired of me making them read your posts. -- birddog, 10/09

    As is pretty much always the case, I agree with Skull. -- A Sooner in Texas, 11/09

  9. #9
    Sooner Starter Hella Sideburns's Avatar
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_ouskull View Post
    It's a delicate balance he'll have to find between putting on the necessary weight to handle the physicality of the NBA and not losing any of his cardiovascular conditioning due to adding weight. Also, adding weight can have an effect on your outside shot, which, considering his current percentages, would be disastrous. I understand that you're trying to look on the bright side, and I admire that in people. However, I'm a bit more of a realist (many would say pessimist) when it comes to things such as this...

    The potential is totally there. Either way, feast or famine, I'm going to be excited to watch and see what, and why, things happen. That's a large part of why I love the game... Also, didn't we just pick up Robert Swift? The homeless man's Bill Walton, circa 1986?

    the_ouskull
    the problem with adding weight is usually when a body can't support it. If a 6'10, 250 pound guy wants to play the three and then adds 15 more pounds, it can be a problem. Does KD even weight 200, right now? I think his frame should easily support some extra weight.

    It doesn't have to be a detriment to his outside shot, necessarily. Adding weight can definitely be a detriment to a 3-point shot, but if a guy is getting pushed around physically for four quarters, 82 games, adding weight to deflect some of that punishment can actually improve conditioning, which allows the player to keep his form deeper into games/the season.

    As for Robert Swift, well, we have to fill our ginger quota.

  10. #10
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Durant is listed at 225. I'm also listed at 225. (I weigh closer to 210.) Durant is also listed at 6'9". I... am NOT listed at 6'9". (I'm closer to 5'9" than I am 6'9".)

    He's tapeworm skinny, and until that gets fixed, he's going to have "issues." End of story.

    Maybe Swift could hire Eric Cartman as a personal trainer. That guy knows how to bring out the best in ginger kids.

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

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    My staff is getting tired of me making them read your posts. -- birddog, 10/09

    As is pretty much always the case, I agree with Skull. -- A Sooner in Texas, 11/09

  11. #11
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    ou_skull is vastly overrating durant's struggles and shortcomings as a player. you have to remember this kid is TWO YEARS removed from his senior year of high school. he has ONE college season and ONE pro season under his belt. averaging over 20 points per game as a 19 year old rookie in the NBA is unheard of. this kid is going to be a superstar, and sooner rather than later. i'd be willing to bet durant averages near 25 points per game next year and the thunder win at least 30 games.

  12. #12
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    How much?

    I won't take the "Durant averages 25 per game" bet unless you allow me to tack other statistical numbers on it as well. Willie Burton once put up 53 in an NBA game. Durant can average 25. That's not exactly a stretch.

    I WILL take the "Thunder will win 30 games next season" bet. Name your stakes.

    Seriously...

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

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    My staff is getting tired of me making them read your posts. -- birddog, 10/09

    As is pretty much always the case, I agree with Skull. -- A Sooner in Texas, 11/09

  13. #13
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    the fact that it's on here is enough for me so you can get some egg at the end of the season. the basketball world has not seen a talent like durant in a long time. i'm not a stat nerd, but i know if durant averages 25 a game this team will be better, so i'm sticking by durant averages 25 and the thunder win 30+.

  14. #14
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    In other words, you were offered a chance to put your money (or whatever) where your mouth was, and you called Linus and asked if you could hide under his security blanket with him. Figures.

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

    skull makes people want to go sit in the corner and hang their heads in shame when he responds to their posts. -- birddog, 01/09

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    My staff is getting tired of me making them read your posts. -- birddog, 10/09

    As is pretty much always the case, I agree with Skull. -- A Sooner in Texas, 11/09

  15. #15
    Sooner Starter Hella Sideburns's Avatar
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    I honestly hope we don't win anywhere near 30 games this season. The 2009 draft is going to be epically weak except at the very, very top.

  16. #16
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    what do you want to bet, internet tough guy? i'm a broke college student. since when do basketball players need to add weight? i'm beginning to wonder if you even watch basketball. at the combine durant was 6'10 188 lbs. i would say right now he is 200, MAYBE 205. which is also what larry bird weighed. he had a pretty decent career if you know who larry bird is?

    hella sideburns: i hope you don't go to any games and support the team. we don't need fans who don't want to win. i hope we win 82 games, i don't give a damn where we draft.

  17. #17
    Vacuums eat while yelling

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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_ouskull View Post
    How much?
    How much are you overrating?
    vastly.

    Seriously though, everyone thought OKC was getting a crap deal with the Hornets loan a few years ago, but they nearly missed the playoffs then. I would love a pleasant surprise this time around too. Whenever someone predicts a win-loss thing, I usually out-bid them by one win.

    However they do this season, it will be nice to know they aren't on loan anymore. As for the logo, that can get shipped to New Orleans.

  18. #18
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hella Sideburns View Post
    I honestly hope we don't win anywhere near 30 games this season. The 2009 draft is going to be epically weak except at the very, very top.
    Yes, Blake Griffin is the only player in next year's draft

  19. #19
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    Quote Originally Posted by starclassic tama View Post
    i hope you don't go to any games and support the team. we don't need fans who don't want to win.
    Quote Originally Posted by starclassic tama View Post
    internet tough guy
    Wow, conflicted much?

    First of all, I don't need you to tell me that you're a college student. It's painfully obvious from your posts.

    Second, you're a college student. I'm a high school teacher with a kid on the way. You make more money than I do, I promise.

    Third, winning, especially in the NBA, is a marathon, not a sprint. This team, with its current combination of players and coaches, isn't capable of winning 82 games and a championship. It will be playing way over it's head, talent-wise, if it wins 28 games. Thinking that doesn't make Hella less a fan. It makes him more of a realist.

    What about our draft, our current talent, and our coaching staff shows you the potential for a 10-game improvement? Yes, I think that the Oklahoma City fans are going to do a lot for this young team, but, lest we forget our place in the grander scheme of things, the Oklahoma City Hornets were as much the product of Chris Paul's arrival in Oklahoma City as they were their own arrival in Oklahoma City. Kevin Durant is no Chris Paul. (Spare me the, "They were both ROY's" argument. Durant isn't in Paul's league as a player unless, by "league" you mean the NBA. Besides, statistically, and wins/losses-wise, which is what really matters anyway, you can make an equally strong argument that Al Horford should have been the rookie of the year last season... HIS team made the playoffs.)

    As for invoking the name of Basketball Jesus... lean forward and choke yourself.



    WITH MY HAND, NUMBN*TS!

    You should be ashamed of 1) invoking the name of Basketball Jesus in the first place, and 2) doing so without having your facts, or your head, straight.

    When Larry Joe Bird was drafted out of Indiana State in 1979 following an amazing run in the NCAA's that culminated with the Sycamores losing to Magic Johnson's Michigan State team, he was 6'9" and weighed 220.

    Kevin Durant is listed, as anybody (that wanted to sound somewhat informed) could look up on NBA or ESPN dot com, at 6'9", 225. He's probably closer to 6'10", and the 225 is probably close too, although, if anything, it's lower.

    So yes, physically, they have a similar build. However, there are differences. 1) Bird is (was AND is) much, much stronger. 2) Bird could actually play a little. His rookie season, in addition to scoring more points per game (21.3 to 19.4) Bird also averaged 10 boards per game. (10.4, to be exact, or 6 boards per game more than KD averaged this past season... Bird also averaged 2.1 more dimes per game and shot a better percentage from the field. Bird also, despite not being known as a great athlete like Durant is, averaged more steals and almost as many blocks per game.

    Not that I'd know anything about the guy. Feel free to educate me, please...



    Oh, you were finished? Well, allow me to retort.

    In order to be able to take full advantage of his wingspan and athleticism, Kevin Durant needs to put on weight. If he's only averaging 4-5 boards per game, at 220ish pounds, it is going to hurt his game, and our team.

    I want us to win too. If Durant adds more weight, he will be able to: 1) play in the post more on offense, so that he can shoot more free throws and take better advantage of his 90% FT shooting. 2) guard more 4's in the post instead of getting abused by them when he's switched off onto them. If he can guard stronger players without fouling them, it helps his game, and our team. 3) so that he can bang for more rebounds, helping our team on the glass and taking away offensive rebounding opportunities, which usually lead to higher percentage scoring opportunities for the opposing offense, which does not help our team win.

    Do YOU want us to win? If so, cheer loudly, but don't think. It can only hurt the team.

    the_ouskull
    Skull=the most underrated poster in SoonerFans.com history. -- gdc, 09/05

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  20. #20
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    Re: So, does anybody want to discuss the actual team?

    cute pictures. ok you win, you know more about basketball because you think this team isn't capable of winning 30 games and kevin durant is a no good bum. forget that he averaged 26 points a game as a true freshman in the big 12, and over 20 (not 19.4) points per game as a teenager in the NBA. you are right, he doesn't have the work ethic nor desire to be any good, and this team will be lucky to win 6 games.

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