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  1. #81
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    Like I said previously, I'm glad that folks like you will be getting a professional sports team to make them feel complete as an Oklahoman. For me personally, my family and quality of life, and faith does that for me, and I hope that in the end, by bringing the Sonics here, will build OKC as a city... but it won't, and I think that down deep you know that too.
    This is spectacularly rude. And dazzlingly condescending. The insinuations here are just awesome.

    How long have you lived in OKC?
    Last edited by BlondeSoonerGirl; 4/20/2008 at 09:03 PM.
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  2. #82
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    A few more musings on this subject, "r5TPsooner": although I'm sure you are "educated," and so is your wife, as you felt compelled to point out, your condescending tone suggests that you don't believe people who enjoy sports or think they play a role in quality of life and economic development could possibly also be educated. You might click on that link I served up for Bill Hudnut, a Phi Beta Kappa Princeton graduate, summa cum laude theological graduate of Union Theological School, and a former professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. He holds opinions similar to mine. Which makes me feel better, 'cause I'm mostly just a dumb, gap-toothed, sports lusting hillbilly.

    Oh, and if you're going to get all braggy about how edumacated you are, you might want to learn the difference between "there" and "their." You might also work on phrases like "We more concerned with the education system and what the cost of living here versus Wisconsin would be." Don't go searching for my misspellings and grammatical errors; I already admitted I'm just a dumb hillbilly. You're the one bragging about your education.

    Regarding "As far as losing United goes.... that didn't have a damn thing to do with the NBA or not having a professional sports franchise but everything to do with education and infrastructure! You and I both know that": no, we both don't know that. I know that United was very concerned with EVERY aspect of quality of life, and mentioned entertainment options specifically.

    And also, taking personal shots at someone... ..."I'm glad that folks like you (narrow minded, right?) will be getting a professional sports team to make them feel complete as an Oklahoman"... ...and then saying "let's just agree to disagree and move on" is chicken****.
    Well, crap.

  3. #83
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member birddog's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    "folks like you"? what exactly is that? someone who likes sports?

    then i'm a folk like me, too.

  4. #84
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    $40,000 per year isn't a decent salary for someone with little or no post-high school education?

    Wow, that shows a rather large disconnect with what the job and wage market actually looks like.

    I mean, you're not rich or anything, but you're pretty solidly middle-class at that level.
    "The choices we discern as having been made in the Constitutional Convention impose burdens on governmental proceses that often seem clumsy, inefficient, even unworkable, but those hard choices were consciously made by men who had lived under a form of government that permitted arbitrary governmental acts to go unchecked." INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919 (1983) (Burger, C.J.)

  5. #85
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member birddog's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    YES!!! I'm solidly middle-class. i knew i could do it!

    as a poor middle class schlep, i don't mind a penny sales tax for the next year and a half. i'll manage somehow but i need to meet with my accountant to find out if i need to cut back on any luxuries such as baby diapers and formula.

  6. #86
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member bluedogok's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    bluedog, the only thing I'll disagree with in the response you made to me is that I don't think Seattle citizens overall "didn't really care" if the team left, I think they were just tired of being taxed for new arenas and arrogantly thought it was all a bluff anyway. I mean, who in their right mind would move from that great city to the dustbowl, anyway?
    I know that it is a very small cross section of the population there but I am on a motorcycle board that started in the Seattle area so it has a large number of PNW residents. Most there could care less if ANY pro sports are there, they view it all as a waste. I do think that it a measure has failed three times, that sends a pretty big signal even if they are just fed up with taxes. It doesn't make you feel like it is a very welcoming market if you are an owner, whether in-town or out of state.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    I think the things they failed to consider were the advantages of moving into a debt-free building with lots of opportunities for additional revenue vs. a dated, revenue-stream lacking building with a huge debt load.
    It's also a large part of the reasons why the Rangers stayed and the Cowboys are moving to Arlington. The debt of the AAC made the City of Dallas wary on spending money to get the Cowboys to Fair Park.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    Addtitionally, if you think OKC isn't pulling out all of the stops to improve the educational system, you haven't been paying attention. We are just now wrapping up the taxation period on MAPS for Kids, a three quarter of a billion dollar program, paid for by a combination of sales taxes and bonds, which will ultimately remodel or replace EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE OKC SCHOOL DISTRICT.
    It also includes those schools in other districts that are in the OKC city limits like many Putnam City and Edmond schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    As far as the big picture goes I really don't know as I don't have a crystal ball. I for one am educated, have a wife who is educated and we have four children. When we left "the big city" to come to OKC, the discussion of whether OKC had a professional sports franchise wasn't even discussed, as only those with narrow minds and views would do so. We more concerned with the education system and what the cost of living here versus Wisconsin would be. It also had a lot to do with raising a family and our well being, as well as putting ourselves in a much better financial situation for generations.

    As far as losing United goes.... that didn't have a damn thing to do with the NBA or not having a professional sports franchise but everything to do with education and infrastructure! You and I both know that.

    Like I said previously, I'm glad that folks like you will be getting a professional sports team to make them feel complete as an Oklahoman. For me personally, my family and quality of life, and faith does that for me, and I hope that in the end, by bringing the Sonics here, will build OKC as a city... but it won't, and I think that down deep you know that too. And forever who posted that a $15/hr or $20/hr job is considered good... needs to have there head examined.

    Let's just agree to disagree and move on. It's what makes SF.com so wonderful.

    BTW, I have no issue with MAPS, my issue is wasting tax payer money on a bunch of spoiled millionaires who will live her seasonally then go back to Florida, New York, California or Arizona. I'm all for building OKC up, but not with the NBA who only a few percentage of people can or want to relate to.
    Talk about a narrow mind, most childless by choice couples could care less how good schools are, most non-religious people could care less about churches. You can always find a narrow minded approach. Many sports fans could care less about anything relating to the arts community, everybody has what they like and don't like, just because schools are important to you doesn't mean that it is important to everyone but it is needed for an overall good community and MOST people recognize that everything is a balance and you have to have something for everyone to make it a nice community.

    Narrow minds here can't understand all the focus on Whorn athletics especially when most of the population here has no connection to the university or connections to other universities that they attended. The "intellectual elitists" like to think they are broad minded and open but I have found them to be among the most closed minded people there are.

    I guess that you don't realize that the majority of Oklahoma residents make in that range, the median household income in Oklahoma (for 2006) was $37,109, that equates to $17.84 based on 40 hours/52 weeks (Census Quick Fact - Oklahoma). Most people that I knew would have been happy making in that range a few years ago and are just now getting past the median range. Oklahoma has traditionally been a low pay state because of the cost of living, one usually relates to the other.

    Does having an NBA alone make a community? No, but I do think it makes a community better just like all of the other things that have been discussed. You need all of those things to make a community good.

  7. #87
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Exactly.
    Well, crap.

  8. #88
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 Ash's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    The hyperbole on here is really entertaining.

    And I can't get over this one "schools aren't important to everyone." It's so depressingly true you just have to laugh.

  9. #89
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    The hyperbole on here is really entertaining.

    And I can't get over this one "schools aren't important to everyone." It's so depressingly true you just have to laugh.
    Well, they aren't important to everyone's personal situation; I think that's the point. Are they EXCEEDINGLY important for a the overall health of a city? Absolutely. But there are a large number of surprisingly smart, successful people who would never factor schools into their decision to live somewhere. Maybe they are young, unmarried professionals and see children as being something they may do one day in the distant future. Maybe they are childless couples who plan to stay that way. Maybe their kids are grown. Whatever.

    Now me, I want schools to be great, even though I'm childless, because it's good for the economy, it's good for property values, it's good for the workforce. But not everybody has those same priorities, and we need to recognize that and still find ways to appeal to those people, providing they have something to offer our city.

    I'm not much for ballet (I do love visual arts and the philharmonic; I'm not a complete Philistine), but I'm glad that we have a ballet. If we ever lost the ballet I would see it as a dramatic step backward and a negative for our city.

    The fact that we have a ballet, and a philharmonic, and a brand new, amazing art museum with the world's most comprehensive collection of Chihuly glass, and have more accredited museums per capita than any city in America, all of these things are things that I am proud of, whether I personally make use of those amenities or not. Does anyone choose to relocate here because of any one specific thing on that list? Doubtful, unless they're coming here to work for one of them. But do those things assist mightily in bringing people to Oklahoma City, and in convincing people that this city is a place they'd like to be? You're damn right they do.

    Good, healthy cities are diverse, and offer many outlets and personal pursuits for their citizens, recognizing that everybody has different goals, aspirations, passions, and ways they like to spend their free time. Diverse entertainment options are a part of that. If we only try to appeal to a single group and a single, narrow mindset, we will stagnate and ultimately fail.
    Well, crap.

  10. #90
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    By the way, we spent more than $50 million in taxpayer money to renovate the Civic Center, which houses the ballet and the philharmonic, and for which they pay a pittance of rent that will NEVER allow OKC to directly recover its investment.
    Well, crap.

  11. #91
    Sooner All-Big XII-2-1+1-1+1 Ash's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Equating education to liking the ballet. Again, laugh out loud funny.

    The value of good schools and contributing to the educational system goes far beyond the immediate benefit to people with kids. It's amazing to me that people don't realize this or choose to relegate it to the same level as spending their disposable income.

    Talk about elitist.

  12. #92
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Uh, I said very specifically that I think schools are one of the most important things we can spend money on. That's why I eagerly spent time on the MAPS for Kids campaign, and voted for said $700 million dollar plus program, despite having no kids and no plans for kids.

    Having great schools and still having other amenities in a city are not mutually exclusive.
    Well, crap.

  13. #93
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member bluedogok's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    Equating education to liking the ballet. Again, laugh out loud funny.

    The value of good schools and contributing to the educational system goes far beyond the immediate benefit to people with kids. It's amazing to me that people don't realize this or choose to relegate it to the same level as spending their disposable income.

    Talk about elitist.
    What is sad about that it is some of those "elitists" who are the ones that I know of who could care less about schools because they will never have children so why should their money go to schools. That was some of the "closed minded elitists" that I was talking about who think they are so "worldly" and superior. Most of these people have advanced degrees or have been career students...most of whom have also have taught at state universities.

    Don't you just love the irony

  14. #94
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    Uh, I said very specifically that I think schools are one of the most important things we can spend money on. That's why I eagerly spent time on the MAPS for Kids campaign, and voted for said $700 million dollar plus program, despite having no kids and no plans for kids.

    Having great schools and still having other amenities in a city are not mutually exclusive.
    Glad to hear it. And I'm glad to know that this NBA deal, which you obviously have a personal stake in, succeeded.

    And I'm just some dumb ol' dude on the innerweb, but I know one thing. The economy of this state hinges on something far removed from the entertainment industry (indcluding pro sports). What happens economically in the future is completely independent of the NBA.

    Good for everyone involved. Hopefully the team will be better and fun to watch in the years to come.

  15. #95
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedogok View Post
    What is sad about that it is some of those "elitists" who are the ones that I know of who could care less about schools because they will never have children so why should their money go to schools. That was some of the "closed minded elitists" that I was talking about who think they are so "worldly" and superior. Most of these people have advanced degrees or have been career students...most of whom have also have taught at state universities.

    Don't you just love the irony
    Hmmm...what circles do these people run in, because all of the softy liberal college educated elitists I know can't stress education at all levels enough.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    I have no personal stake in the NBA being here, specifically. At all. Don't presume to reduce my argument to that.

    Like all OKC taxpayers, I have a personal stake in seeing Oklahoma City grow economically and succeed. More specifically, as someone who has worked on downtown revitalization in a volunteer and professional capacity, I am interested in seeing us maintain the momentum so many people have worked so hard to create.

    The NBA is a part of that overall picture, whether you or others believe that to be true. It is part of a road map laid out 15 years ago by some visionary leaders, many of whom I have had the pleasure of working with. It's not something that just "happened."

    All I'm saying is that it is folly to say that "what happens economically in the future is completely independent of the NBA." What happens economically in the future is now intrinsically tied to the NBA. And to public education. And to parks. And to police and fire protection. And to public transportation. And to streets and roads. And to the ballet and the arts. It's all a part of the same package, and how Oklahoma leverages each those things to its advantage has the potential to make a HUGE impact on our economic future.
    Well, crap.

  17. #97
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member GrapevineSooner's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey View Post
    Does anyone else feel the tiniest bit of guilt about this whole damm thing, I want a team but the team being ripped out of Seattle just seems wrong.
    Anticdote time.

    One of my co-workers used to live in Seattle. He also knows about some of my Oklahoma roots and my desire for OKC to have a team. When I broached the topic of the Sonics' move, I expected him to side with the Sonics fans and to rant about how it's an injustice for Seattle to be losing them.

    Instead, he told me that Seattle really doesn't care about the Sonics and they're whining about it just for the sake of whining. Now that having been said, I'm sure there are Sonics fans who have been diehards since Day 1. I feel for those fans.

    But it's folly to think that the Clay Bennett and his ownership group are doing the wrong thing in moving them. He's currently in a lease that doesn't allow for revenue sharing on non-Basketball events at Key Arena. From a financial standpoint, that's an absolute killer.

    I'm not a big fan on the idea of raising taxes to help fund sports stadiums and arenas. From that standpoint, I can respect the City of Seattle's decision to not want to fund another arena after they helped fund the construction of Seahawks Stadium and Safeco Field.

    That having been said, when politicians say "we're not going to help fund your arena/stadium," and you're in a lease where you're losing 5 to 6 million dollars a year, the only decision you can make is to move the team to another location that's willing to help you build a new arena and will also give you a sweetheart deal of a lease.

    Also back to the original question, I felt a twinge of guilt back in the spring of 1993 when Norm Green finalized a deal to move the Minnesota North Stars to Dallas. That is, until I found out that high school hockey games regularly outdrew the NHL team.

    From a "Will hockey make it in Dallas?" question, it never was in doubt. This city has so many northern transplants that games against Chicago, Detroit, NY Rangers, and Boston were guaranteed to draw fans. From that standpoint, the Stars already had a built in fanbase. They certainly had the population base from which to draw additional fans and like Badger pointed out, they also made it a point to build rinks in the area to promote the game from the peewee level all the way up to the Junior Hockey level.

    Anyway, I don't mean to get too off-track. The bottom line is sports is a business. To say they're stealing a team reeks of whining.
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  18. #98
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Gandalf_The_Grey's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    There is a small portion of ignorant people in this state. I mean let's say the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) wanted to hold Wrestlemania in our state. A portion of these people would bitch and complain about how redneck and stupid this would make us look. However, they would totally overlook the billion dollars that it would bring to the local economy. If OKC is ever going to be on a National stage, we are going to have to get rid of a large group of people who think they are just too "damm good" for something that will bring their local community Billions of dollars.

  19. #99
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    This thread is going to be awesome a few years from now.
    "And the truth is that no circumstance can ever defeat us unless we let it... Resilience in the face of failure is a manifestation of the mind..." -Wayne Coyne

  20. #100
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    I'm sorry, I just heard someone say "Wisconsin."

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