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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    I'm shocked that you would disagree with me since the only thing we agree on is disagreeing.
    That's funny, 'cause I don't recall you and I having a history of any kind, even in your past life. Overall, you've made very little impression on me.

    Now, regarding this thread, I don't recall anyone suggesting taxpayers haven't been heavily involved in bringing this team here. We were only responding to your assertion that this is a WASTE of taxpayer dollars, and I obviously disagree with that.

    And, while you and others (maybe even myself in the past) might have preferred hockey to hoop from a personal "fan" perspective, the fact of the matter is that NBA basketball has a much greater profile nationwide and even worldwide, and a much larger fanbase. A simple test is to ask the casual sports fan (not a huge fan of either sport) to name as many active NBA players as he can, and then to name as many active NHL players as he can. It's not even close.

    Couple that with the vast differences in network agreements for the two leagues, and it would have been MUCH easier to make the case that incentivizing hockey over basketball would qualify as a taxpayer boondoggle.

    Oklahoma City and Oklahoma will gain far greater national and international exposure from its association with the NBA than we ever would have from the NHL, and that is how I personally define whether taxpayer support is appropriate here.
    Well, crap.

  2. #62
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Big Red Ron's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Hell, name one AMERICAN NHL player.
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    a thousand victories. - Sun Tzu (500 B.C.)

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Mike Modano.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Keith Tkachuk.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    But that's most of the NHL's problem: Americans can't get behind watching a league dominated by foreign-born players - even Canadians.

  6. #66
    SoonerFans.com Elite Member Big Red Ron's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    My point is the same. NHL is hardly "Big League" in the USA and world wide.
    Know thy self,
    know thy enemy.
    A thousand battles,
    a thousand victories. - Sun Tzu (500 B.C.)

  7. #67
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Does anyone else feel the tiniest bit of guilt about this whole damm thing, I want a team but the team being ripped out of Seattle just seems wrong.

  8. #68
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Thoughts on having "loveable losers:" That was what everyone thought when we were Hornets. "Oh, the Hornets are so awful. We're getting the worst team in the NBA. Charlotte didn't want them and neither did New Orleans, so now they're getting dumped on us. Why can't we get a good team?" And then, we got the Hornets and their #1 pick, Chris Paul. And then, New Orleans wanted them back

    Thoughts on NHL vs. NBA in Oklahoma: Dallas has a good concept with the Stars, whereas they have youth programs and cultivate an interest in the sport early on so that they are profitable. Unfortunately, the rest of the NHL (except maybe the Canadian teams and Canadian fans) is poorly managed and poorly fanbased and had to go through a shutdown. Shutdowns aren't good for teams or the markets they're in and I'm not convinced the NHL is fully recovered from that work stoppage and has a feasible product out there... yet. I love hockey and enjoyed the OKC Blazers games I attended. However, if Oklahoma and OKC were to put up a tax incentive vote to bring the NHL in, I'm sure it would get voted down because there's less guarantees of a return economically with the NHL, considering their own financial woes.

    On getting the Hornets or the Sonics: If we weren't seen as racist thieves that were worse than Hurricane Katrina herself, I would love to take the New Orleans Hornets back, just because we loved them and supported them as our own for two seasons. However, because I don't want another notch in the "hate state" belt that seems to be gripping Oklahoma tighter theseadays, Sonics it is. Here's hoping that nothing bad happens to Seattle in the next few months so that they get to keep their team out of sympathy (crosses fingers)

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey View Post
    Does anyone else feel the tiniest bit of guilt about this whole damm thing, I want a team but the team being ripped out of Seattle just seems wrong.
    Yep. I think it sucks for Sonics fans. Mostly the arrogant and spineless politicians in Seattle and in the Washington legislature are responsible for this.

    The NBA didn't want to lose the Seattle market, either. And despite what most people now think, I don't believe Clay and Co. wanted to leave early on. I think the OKC guys and the league wanted to use the OKC stick to get a new building and stabilize the Seattle market, at which point they would wait out a bankruptcy in NOLA, sell the Sonics to Seattle investors for a substantial profit, and buy the Hornets cheap.

    I would not have felt guilty getting a Hornets team if NOLA was given a fair shot to support that team and failed. I don't think anyone else would have blamed OKC at that point, either. Of course, the awesome season the Hornets are having this year would have thrown a monkey wrench into the works, anyway. I still have doubts about the long-term viability of that market, but a strong playoff showing would probably help right the ship down there for at least a few more years.

    So if the other plan had played out, with Seattle getting a new building, it might have been another five years or more before OKC had another shot at a team.

    That said, it sucks for Seattle Supersonics fans. I just hope their elected representatives do the right thing, stop being vindictive, allow the lease buyout, and get to work on getting a building and then a team for the fans, who are the people truly getting the shaft here.
    Well, crap.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey View Post
    Does anyone else feel the tiniest bit of guilt about this whole damm thing, I want a team but the team being ripped out of Seattle just seems wrong.
    yes

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    That's funny, 'cause I don't recall you and I having a history of any kind, even in your past life. Overall, you've made very little impression on me.

    Now, regarding this thread, I don't recall anyone suggesting taxpayers haven't been heavily involved in bringing this team here. We were only responding to your assertion that this is a WASTE of taxpayer dollars, and I obviously disagree with that.

    And, while you and others (maybe even myself in the past) might have preferred hockey to hoop from a personal "fan" perspective, the fact of the matter is that NBA basketball has a much greater profile nationwide and even worldwide, and a much larger fanbase. A simple test is to ask the casual sports fan (not a huge fan of either sport) to name as many active NBA players as he can, and then to name as many active NHL players as he can. It's not even close.

    Couple that with the vast differences in network agreements for the two leagues, and it would have been MUCH easier to make the case that incentivizing hockey over basketball would qualify as a taxpayer boondoggle.

    Oklahoma City and Oklahoma will gain far greater national and international exposure from its association with the NBA than we ever would have from the NHL, and that is how I personally define whether taxpayer support is appropriate here.

    I'm thrilled that neither one of us had made any impression on each good or bad. My statement was meant from previous posts in which we openly disagreed on topics.

    Regarding the NBA...I'd rather see OKC get national exposure from something more positive rather than of a bunch of millionaires from the NBA. I give it ten years before the owner of the team begs to leave OKC. Also, if you think that bringing an NBA team here is going to make big companies want to move here... then you're completely wrong. Most educated people with families, want to live where the education system is good, the economy is solid, and crime is low. If you think that by creating jobs for someone who sells peanuts, cotton candy, or hot dogs is gonna make OKC a better place to live, then we just disagree. I can see wanting to bring a company to OKC that brings GOOD jobs with it, but the jobs that are coming here are mainly **** and we both know it. Plus, I'd like to see my tax money go towards roads, schools, teacher pay, and infrastructure rather than a bunch of primadonnas and there bodyguards.

    I'm glad that your excited about the NBA coming... but personally I'd like my tax dollars spent where they'd be useful... not just for the sonics, there front office, and the Bricktown big wigs who really put this stupid azz idea together. I'll be getting absolutely nothing back for my tax dollars which sucks.

    Enjoy the NBA, I'd rather support OU basketball, OU football, and the Blazers personally.

    BTW, I was pretty shocked when I heard that the NBA still existed. I thought that they pretty much were all in jail or in rehab?
    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness and usually prefers silence to saying something which is not everything it should Be."
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    As for whether OKC should specifically feel guilty, I don't think so. I think the city itself acted in good faith throughout. Mick Cornett repeatedly refused to even say the words "Seattle" or "Supersonics" until after the relocation application was submitted. He and the rest of the city staff and Chamber worked really hard to stay out of things and just have their house in order for WHICHEVER team ended up here. If Seattle had come through for the Sonics, we would have just been ready for whatever other team opportunity there was, whether it be relocation or expansion.

    But the fact of the matter is that this building problem in Seattle existed long before OKC ownership was involved. Had they not purchased that team, the Sonics would very likely be playing in Fresno right now. The crux of the matter is that the Sonics couldn't survive long term without a new building, and Seattle actively made the choice to not play along. It was sheer luck of the draw that the Sonics were the recipients of Seattle's building fatigue; it could have been the Mariners or the Seahawks leaving town had things worked out a bit differently.

    As for whether the owners operated in good faith, I think for anyone to believe that they only intended to bring the team here and not to give the Seattle situation a real shot says that you believe these owners to be dishonest and scurrilous. I personally don't believe that. Besides, it would have been bad business, and I think they are nothing if not good businessmen.
    Well, crap.

  13. #73
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Red Ron View Post
    Nobody watches the NHL. Their rating are right up there with golf and tennis. Hate to disagree here but if we would have landed the expansion team that went to Memphis and then the NHL goes into it's year off, like it did, we'd be done.

    Let's be honest here, the NHL is hardly even "Major League." Most people here don't know the difference between CHL and NHL.
    The NBA only trails the NFL as far as popularity in the USA. We're better off.
    I have been an NHL fan for many year but after the lockout the league profile in the national consciousness fell to about the level of the Arena Football league in profile, even MLS seems to have a higher profile now. I know my interest has not been as much since they came back, I have had NHL Center Ice for many years to watch Avs games and hardly watched any of them this season, I am going to drop it because it isn't worth it to me anymore. I watched hardly any basketball anymore (college or pro) but OKC is much better off in the NBA than the NHL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixer! View Post
    But that's most of the NHL's problem: Americans can't get behind watching a league dominated by foreign-born players - even Canadians.
    The same issue has affected all auto racing series not named Nascar in this country and the reason why AOWR fell apart and is now struggling to get back together. I don't understand that attitude, I could typically care less where someone is from to enjoy the racing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey View Post
    Does anyone else feel the tiniest bit of guilt about this whole damm thing, I want a team but the team being ripped out of Seattle just seems wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    Yep. I think it sucks for Sonics fans. Mostly the arrogant and spineless politicians in Seattle and in the Washington legislature are responsible for this.

    The NBA didn't want to lose the Seattle market, either. And despite what most people now think, I don't believe Clay and Co. wanted to leave early on. I think the OKC guys and the league wanted to use the OKC stick to get a new building and stabilize the Seattle market, at which point they would wait out a bankruptcy in NOLA, sell the Sonics to Seattle investors for a substantial profit, and buy the Hornets cheap.

    That said, it sucks for Seattle Supersonics fans. I just hope their elected representatives do the right thing, stop being vindictive, allow the lease buyout, and get to work on getting a building and then a team for the fans, who are the people truly getting the shaft here.
    Nope, if OKC fails to support them in the same way that Seattle has then they should relocate somewhere else as well. The difference is the NBA seems to do pretty well being the only major game in town and Seattle has many teams. The fact that the majority of Seattle citizens voted down a new arena 3 times after approving a new baseball and football stadium is an indication they didn't really care if they stayed in the market or not. When you have three major level franchises in your market, you have to treat them somewhat evenly. Polishing a 46 year old turd of an arena is not the same as a new one. Which is ridiculous because an arena is a true multi-purpose facility whereas a baseball or football facility are not. Look at how many other events have come to the Ford Center since it has been built that wouldn't have come to The Myriad. The Ford Center was an investment in the city even if a NBA or NHL team never came there. People also need to quit thinking like the teams "own" the arena, if a team leaves the arena still stays where it is and is useful for those other events. So it is truly an investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    BTW, I was pretty shocked when I heard that the NBA still existed. I thought that they pretty much were all in jail or in rehab?
    The NFL has pretty much supplanted the NBA for that type of news.

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    But the fact of the matter is that this building problem in Seattle existed long before OKC ownership was involved. Had they not purchased that team, the Sonics would very likely be playing in Fresno right now. The crux of the matter is that the Sonics couldn't survive long term without a new building, and Seattle actively made the choice to not play along. It was sheer luck of the draw that the Sonics were the recipients of Seattle's building fatigue; it could have been the Mariners or the Seahawks leaving town had things worked out a bit differently.
    Seattle came close to the Seahawks moving to California and the Mariners threatened a move twice before they got new facilities.
    Last edited by bluedogok; 4/20/2008 at 07:01 PM.

  14. #74
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    Also, if you think that bringing an NBA team here is going to make big companies want to move here... then you're completely wrong. Most educated people with families, want to live where the education system is good, the economy is solid, and crime is low. If you think that by creating jobs for someone who sells peanuts, cotton candy, or hot dogs is gonna make OKC a better place to live, then we just disagree. I can see wanting to bring a company to OKC that brings GOOD jobs with it, but the jobs that are coming here are mainly **** and we both know it.
    That's interesting about the jobs that are coming here. I moved back here with a fortune 30 company and make a pretty damn good salary. There are quite a few people in my office who make 6 figure salaries. There are those that make $12/hr, $15hr, $20/hr. For somebody with very little, if any, post high school education, that's nothing to sneeze at. What's their alternative, $7,8/hr gigs at 7-11, waiting tables for $3/hr plus tips?

    What exactly do you consider a "GOOD" job? Do you expect OKC to be the next Silicon Valley? It's just simply not going to happen, at least not over night.

    And by the way, did you catch the piece in one of the articles that there are some 500 (I think) companies that get the same tax incentives that the Sonics are going to get? I may be off on the 500 number, but the point is that they're not the only ones getting the breaks. Want to take away the jobs from those Oklahomans as well?

    The OKC school system sucks, that doesn't mean that all the school systems in Oklahoma do. The crime rate doesn't seem to be any worse that other places we've lived, so that's probably a wash.

    Bottom line, not every city is right for everybody. I've lived in some of the largest cities in the world and am very happy to be back in OKC.

    Plus, I'd like to see my tax money go towards roads, schools, teacher pay, and infrastructure rather than a bunch of primadonnas and there bodyguards.
    I could have swore we voted last Fall for a $400MM road bond, so you can scratch that off your list. Don't disagree with you at all on the education pieces, it's been that way around here for too damn long.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    ...Also, if you think that bringing an NBA team here is going to make big companies want to move here... then you're completely wrong. Most educated people with families, want to live where the education system is good, the economy is solid, and crime is low. If you think that by creating jobs for someone who sells peanuts, cotton candy, or hot dogs is gonna make OKC a better place to live, then we just disagree. I can see wanting to bring a company to OKC that brings GOOD jobs with it, but the jobs that are coming here are mainly **** and we both know it...
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a total bastardization of not only what I have said previously, but also of the reasons behind bringing a team here.

    In previous threads and posts I have mentioned that sales taxes from games would indeed add to the tax base of the city and the state, and yes, that people would be employed, adding their income taxes to the mix. I also said, yes, that players and team staff would also spend money in the market, providing work for service people and other businesses.

    But that is hardly what this is about. Those things are quite incremental, and the fact that you think this is what the team relocation thrust is about demostrates an inability to grasp the big-picture aspects of this move. Don't worry; you're not alone. A number of people have a hard time seeing the big picture.

    But the big picture is this: one of the highest priorities companies have when looking to expand or relocate into a market is what type of quality of life their employees will be able to enjoy. A good quality of life allows them to attract and retain quality people with less effort. "Quality of life" ranges from cost of living (we have one of the lowest in the country) to parks and greenspaces (we have spent tens of millions in the past few years and have big plans for the future), trails (our trails system is going nuts), plus arts and entertainment opportunities.

    "Entertainment opportunities," as defined by site relocation specialists, is often HEAVILY influenced by major league sports options. Additionally, corporations like to have major league sports options as a way to entertain clients. Therefore, getting a major league franchise is just another arrow in the quiver, and ostensibly will help us better compete for job expansion and retention.

    If you don't believe that quality of life affects corporate relocation and expansion decisions, you obviously don't know the story of what sparked MAPS in the first place. Back in the early 90s, Oklahoma City and County passed a penny sales tax, contingent upon United Airlines locating a maintenance facility here. Talk about corporate welfare; it was basically a $100+ million bribe to the airline to convince them to bring the facility here, during the depths of the oil bust. Ultimately, it was down to Oklahoma City and Indianapolis. Airline officials throughout the process told OKC that their incentive package was by far the best, yet when the announcement was made they picked Indy.

    Ron Norick, then OKC mayor, was crushed. He called United to find out why, when OKC had been willing to pay far more for the jobs. He was told, in a nutshell, that United simply didn't want its employees to have to live in Oklahoma City. Understandably ****ed, he got on a plane and went unannounced to Indy to see with his own eyes what he expected; Indy surely wasn't that much nicer than OKC.

    Much to his surprise, he was wrong and United was right. Indy, who had recently spent a crapload of money and effort on its downtown, was indeed a nicer place. Incidentally, Indy had also built the Hoosier Dome (now known as the RCA Dome, and recently closed). The Hoosier Dome was built to barebones NFL standards with no tenant, much as the Ford Center was build. Very soon, the Colts relocated there.

    But I digress. Norick was so blown away that he came back with an entirely new idea; that we needed to invest in ourselves, our downtown, our city and our quality of life and jobs would follow. Part of that original vision was to bring major league sports to Oklahoma City. So far, the plan has exceeded all expectations. So I'll the benefit of the doubt to Norick and successive mayors, plus the chamber, other cities' chambers and professional relocation experts when they suggest that the big picture plan we are following is the correct one.

    BTW, in 2000 I had the pleasure of having a conversation with Bill Hudnut, the visionary mayor of Indy during their renaissance period, while we were both attending the International Downtown Association convention in Los Angeles, where he was keynote speaker. I had recently finished a book that he had written, and after discussing it for a few minutes, asked if he knew about what was going on in OKC, and how Indy had played a role. He had no idea, but was fascinated. He took a lot of pleasure in hearing how much of an influence Indy's experience had on OKC's.
    Last edited by BigRedJed; 4/20/2008 at 09:53 PM. Reason: "barbones?"
    Well, crap.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    bluedog, the only thing I'll disagree with in the response you made to me is that I don't think Seattle citizens overall "didn't really care" if the team left, I think they were just tired of being taxed for new arenas and arrogantly thought it was all a bluff anyway. I mean, who in their right mind would move from that great city to the dustbowl, anyway?

    I think the things they failed to consider were the advantages of moving into a debt-free building with lots of opportunities for additional revenue vs. a dated, revenue-stream lacking building with a huge debt load. They also didn't consider the point you eloquently made regarding being the only game in town. A team that is in that situation has a number of advantages over a team sharing the spotlight with two others, even in a much larger city. It's the same reason Oklahoma City is a more tempting NBA market than Kansas City.
    Last edited by BigRedJed; 4/20/2008 at 07:52 PM. Reason: this, that.
    Well, crap.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    And finally, regarding the assertions made by "r5TPsooner" regarding companies looking for cities with good education systems and roads, he's correct. That's why OKC has ALSO been passing street bond issues like crazy doing substantial road and streetscape improvements and working to encourage inner-city revitalization, which reduces infrastructure needs caused by "donut (suburban) development."

    Addtitionally, if you think OKC isn't pulling out all of the stops to improve the educational system, you haven't been paying attention. We are just now wrapping up the taxation period on MAPS for Kids, a three quarter of a billion dollar program, paid for by a combination of sales taxes and bonds, which will ultimately remodel or replace EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE OKC SCHOOL DISTRICT.

    Add to that the huge committment being made by the city to nurture and develop OCU and the Oklahoma Health Center, and we are certainly paying attention to having a well educated work force.

    OF COURSE we need great roads and education. We're working on both at an unprecedented pace. But there is far, far more to the economic development picture than just those two items. The importance of quality of life, which includes entertainment options, is undeniable, at least to the informed.
    Well, crap.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    During the "Big League City" push, the Mayor mentioned a really great point that distills my endless posting above into a simple paragraph. He said that currently companies like Devon, Chesapeake, Sand Ridge and others, when recruiting the best and brightest graduates from out of state, are often asked "do I have to live in Oklahoma City?" The Mayor said that what we are trying to do here, ultimately, is to change that question to instead be "you mean I get to live in Oklahoma City?"
    Well, crap.

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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedJed View Post
    This is absolutely ridiculous and a total bastardization of not only what I have said previously, but also of the reasons behind bringing a team here.

    In previous threads and posts I have mentioned that sales taxes from games would indeed add to the tax base of the city and the state, and yes, that people would be employed, adding their income taxes to the mix. I also said, yes, that players and team staff would also spend money in the market, providing work for service people and other businesses.

    But that is hardly what this is about. Those things are quite incremental, and the fact that you think this is what the team relocation thrust is about demonstrates an inability to grasp the big-picture aspects of this move. Don't worry; you're not alone. A number of people have a hard time seeing the big picture.

    But the big picture is this: one of the highest priorities companies have when looking to expand or relocate into a market is what type of quality of life their employees will be able to enjoy. A good quality of life allows them to attract and retain quality people with less effort. "Quality of life" ranges from cost of living (we have one of the lowest in the country) to parks and greenspaces (we have spent tens of millions in the past few years and have big plans for the future), trails (our trails system is going nuts), plus arts and entertainment opportunities.

    "Entertainment opportunities," as defined by site relocation specialists, is often HEAVILY influenced by major league sports options. Additionally, corporations like to have major league sports options as a way to entertain clients. Therefore, getting a major league franchise is just another arrow in the quiver, and ostensibly will help us better compete for job expansion and retention.

    If you don't believe that quality of life affects corporate relocation and expansion decisions, you obviously don't know the story of what sparked MAPS in the first place. Back in the early 90s, Oklahoma City and County passed a penny sales tax, contingent upon United Airlines locating a maintenance facility here. Talk about corporate welfare; it was basically a $100+ million bribe to the airline to convince them to bring the facility here, during the depths of the oil bust. Ultimately, it was down to Oklahoma City and Indianapolis. Airline officials throughout the process told OKC that their incentive package was by far the best, yet when the announcement was made they picked Indy.

    Ron Norick, then OKC mayor, was crushed. He called United to find out why, when OKC had been willing to pay far more for the jobs. He was told, in a nutshell, that United simply didn't want its employees to have to live in Oklahoma City. Understandably ****ed, he got on a plane and went unannounced to Indy to see with his own eyes what he expected; Indy surely wasn't that much nicer than OKC.

    Much to his surprise, he was wrong and United was right. Indy, who had recently spent a crapload of money and effort on its downtown, was indeed a nicer place. Incidentally, Indy had also built the Hoosier Dome (now known as the RCA Dome, and recently closed). The Hoosier Dome was built to barbones NFL standards with no tenant, much as the Ford Center was build. Very soon, the Colts relocated there.

    But I digress. Norick was so blown away that he came back with an entirely new idea; that we needed to invest in ourselves, our downtown, our city and our quality of life and jobs would follow. Part of that original vision was to bring major league sports to Oklahoma City. So far, the plan has exceeded all expectations. So I'll give Norick and successive mayors, plus the chamber, other cities' chambers and professional relocation experts when they suggest that the big picture plan we are following is the correct one.

    BTW, in 2000 I had the pleasure of having a conversation with Bill Hudnut, the visionary mayor of Indy during their renaissance period, while we were both attending the International Downtown Association convention in Los Angeles, where he was keynote speaker. I had recently finished a book that he had written, and after discussing it for a few minutes, asked if he knew about what was going on in OKC, and how Indy had played a role. He had no idea, but was fascinated. He took a lot of pleasure in hearing how much of an influence Indy's experience had on OKC's.
    As far as the big picture goes I really don't know as I don't have a crystal ball. I for one am educated, have a wife who is educated and we have four children. When we left "the big city" to come to OKC, the discussion of whether OKC had a professional sports franchise wasn't even discussed, as only those with narrow minds and views would do so. We more concerned with the education system and what the cost of living here versus Wisconsin would be. It also had a lot to do with raising a family and our well being, as well as putting ourselves in a much better financial situation for generations.

    As far as losing United goes.... that didn't have a damn thing to do with the NBA or not having a professional sports franchise but everything to do with education and infrastructure! You and I both know that.

    Like I said previously, I'm glad that folks like you will be getting a professional sports team to make them feel complete as an Oklahoman. For me personally, my family and quality of life, and faith does that for me, and I hope that in the end, by bringing the Sonics here, will build OKC as a city... but it won't, and I think that down deep you know that too. And forever who posted that a $15/hr or $20/hr job is considered good... needs to have there head examined.

    Let's just agree to disagree and move on. It's what makes SF.com so wonderful.

    BTW, I have no issue with MAPS, my issue is wasting tax payer money on a bunch of spoiled millionaires who will live her seasonally then go back to Florida, New York, California or Arizona. I'm all for building OKC up, but not with the NBA who only a few percentage of people can or want to relate to.
    "The true genius shudders at incompleteness and usually prefers silence to saying something which is not everything it should Be."
    -Edgar Allan Poe

  20. #80
    Mmm... ...ribs.

    BigRedJed's Avatar
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    Re: NBA Board votes 28-2

    Quote Originally Posted by r5TPsooner View Post
    ...When we left "the big city" to come to OKC, the discussion of whether OKC had a professional sports franchise wasn't even discussed, as only those with narrow minds and views would do so...
    See, your statement right there is actually an example of a "narrow mind" and "narrow views." I would agree that someone who made that their only priority for whether they came to a city would indeed be narrow minded. But when you refuse to accept that it might be ONE of MANY valid reasons that many people might want to live in a city, you reveal that YOU are the one who is in fact "narrow minded."

    In fact, I think that people with broad minds (the opposite of narrow, right?) want to live in a city that offers LOTS of amenities, INCLUDING but not limited to nice streets and good schools.

    We have to appeal to all sorts of people in making our city a great and inviting one, and facing the facts that sports is in fact an important part of Americans' lives these days, and that entertainment options help give us a competitive edge when appealing to outsiders is vital. To ignore this ignores the obvious, and Oklahoma City needs EVERY competitive advantage it can muster, not just one or two.

    I for one want a well-rounded city, with a focus on education, saftey, the arts, AND etertainment.

    As for your belittling of people who don't have the exact same set of interests or priorities as you, and labeling them small minded (that is what "narrow minded" or having "narrow views" means, doesn't it?), I'll let that speak for itself.
    Last edited by BigRedJed; 4/20/2008 at 09:02 PM.
    Well, crap.

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