Lebron is f'ing unbelievable...

IMO, these are the players that I would rank ahead of Pippen..really not in order

Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Earl Monroe
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
David Robinson
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Willis Reed
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Kobe Bryant
Isaiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
John Stockton
Charles Barkley
Dave Cowens
Walt Frazier
Elvin Hayes
Patrick Ewing

 

Yup, I didn't see anyone there that I would rank Pippen ahead of.

 

jlew have you watched the HBO special on Magic and Bird?

 

But I guess if "just" considering him a top 50 all timer is pippen hatin, then I'm a hater..

 

nope, aint got HBO, i got Cinemax ...


thinking about switching to hbo.

max is 10 a month
hbo is 15 a month

 

think about it though, max is $5 less a month but you are probably spending $10 or more a month on lotion so in essence, HBO is the way to go

 

yah i been using a lot of spit lately

 

You know who doesn't get enough respect....

Alex English.

I don't expect the colliers and jlews to know much of anything about guys like Connie Hawkins, and David Thompson to be honest. Hell, most people's perspective of Elgin Baylor is distorted by the proud man who would rather retire than come off the bench for the Lakers when it was clear that his knees were shot. I don't expect them to understand how much of a badass Maurice Lucas was in his prime, and how he'd have crushed Malone in a head to head match up. I certainly don't expect them to know that before there was Bird v Magic, there was West v The Big O.

I don't expect jlew to understand that the two best pure shooters this game ever saw were Pete Maravich and Rick Barry. I don't expect them to know that if not for a torn ACL in the mid 80s, people would be calling DWade or Carmelo the next Bernard King. I view today's player from a different perspective.

I would love to see Shaq in his prime go up against Wilt, Russell, Unseld, Abdul-Jabbar, and Reed in either the regular season, or even moreso the postseason. I want to see Jordan defend Jerry West. I want to see how deadly West, Maravich, and Barry would have been with a 3 point shot. I want to see Artest defend George Gervin and Connie Hawkins on consecutive nights.

I want to see how many Sportscenter dunks David Thompson would have relegating Lebron James to the last 15 minutes of the show with his one dunk that does no better than 9th on the Top 10. I want to see Pau Gasol get lit up by Darryl Dawkins and get posterized at least twice in a single game.

I may not be a basketball historian, and I certainly won't deny Michael Jordan his greatness, led mostly by his competitive nature. But I won't put him #1 on my list over Oscar Robertson, rings aren't the only measurement of how great a player can be. Otherwise stiffs like Luc Longley would be top 20 of all time material. The 10th guy on the Boston Celtics bench in the 60s would be a top 10 guy all time if it was based mostly on rings.

In fact, when you show me a guy who in his first 5 seasons averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds, and 10.6 assists per game...I'll give you a guy that I'll consider on his way to being the greatest of all time.

 

I don't agree with that. Rings only matter when talking about Elite players. Luke is not an Elite player. Horry is not an elite player.


This has been my point through this entire debate.

I think it's fair to say u can't be top 10 ever without a ring. So far, so true.

 

It doesn't make a big difference to me whether you list Pippen as 15-20 or around 30, especially since there are quite a few of the all-time greats I never even saw play. I have more of a problem with people when they act as if Jordan did it by himself, and didn't need Pippen. Jordan's ring count would be closer to 0 than 6 if it weren't for Pippen. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't better, but I don't think the gap is nearly as big as people make it out to be. Lots of people like to divide basketball up into the things: offense, defense, and rebounding. Pippen has him beat on two of the three.

The argument of Jordan being the better defender because he had more steals is extremely flawed. Steals are nice, but they don't make you a good defender. If you average two steals a game for a season, that's considered really good, but that's only looking at the defense you played on two plays. If you only play defense twice in a game you're playing awful defense. Pippen got plenty of steals, though, and even lead the league in them the year Jordan wasn't with them.

When I mention that Pippen "ran the defense," I'm not meaning that he was just the best defender on the court. I mean that he actually ran the defense. Phil Jackson said he's the most intelligent defender he's every been associated with. Pippen would actually sub people out of the game for playing bad defense. Jackson said that he would literally have players coming off the court in the middle of the game and he didn't know why. He'd ask them and they'd say Scottie sent them. Rather than get mad at Pippen, he would assume that he was right, and sub the guy out.

 

I don't like doing "IF's, and BUT's, but i will

If MJ didn't have Pippen, he would have 2 Rings

that's my guess


However, he did have Pippen and took 100% advantage of it

and they are the best 1-2 in the history of sports.

 

Russell and Cousy would like to have a word with you.

 

those teams had like 6 other Hall of Famers, to add to that 1-2 punch

 

the 1962-63 Boston Celtics had 8 Hall of Fame players on it

 

Wilt and West would, too. Well, might be kinda hard for Wilt.

 

what about Kareem and Magic ?

 

Scott, great minds and such..

I was thinking about Alex English the other day, one of the most underrated players ever...Imagine the talk he would have received if he had played on a decent team..

Another guy...Bernard King...just unbelievable player IMO...

Edit: I see you brought up BK also

 

Of course. I wasn't saying that was the only one.

 

yah i know

lets hear your top 5, 1-2 punches

don't have to be in order

 

Wilt and West
Wilt and Baylor
Kareem and Magic
Shaq and Kobe
Mikan and Mikkelsen