Anyone else hear Watts and Jones?

[Crimsontothecore]

On the Tulsa Sports Animal this morning, Cowboy Bill Watts and Pat Jones commenced to criticizing Venables as a coordinator. That led to criticism of the entire defensive scheme. To hear them tell it, the OU staff is pretty much inept.
To watts and Jones: I listened to your commentary on OU so now here's my commentary on you two.

Pat, There's a reason you're doing talk radio in Tulsa Oklahoma instead of walking the sidelines as a head coach..or even assistant at any level. No, you didn't retire..at least not voluntarily. What makes you think you are worthy to criticize a coach who has had more success as an assistant then you had at any position during your pathetic career. Again, there's a reason "Pat Jones" isn't on any schools list when they go shopping for a coach.
I realize you're still haunted by OU's dominance over your poor little pokies. Yes, even at the pinnacle of your career with Barry Sanders on the roster you couldn't beat OU. At least try to act like it doesn't still bother you..ok?

Bill, I laugh every time I hear you start a sentence by saying "The reality is blah, blah, blah". Another definition of irony: A former pro wrassler talking about "Reality". You do realize your claim to fame is that you were a FAKE fighter in a FAKE sport, right? Or have you convinced yourself it was all real?

There is one little thing you both failed to mention while you were critiqing OU from top to bottom; OU WON THE BIG12 CHAMPIONSHIP LAST YEAR:eek:
(boneheads)

[Landthief 1972]

Seriously... have the watched OSU play defense?

Aggies who live in glass barns shouldn't throw petrified cow flop.

[goingoneight]

Cowboy Bill Watts: Brent Venables is teh succc.

Pat Jones: "Well, now come on now my dear good close friend Cowboy Bill Watts. I gotta tell ya in all honesty, by large I might be inclined to, eh-eh... again I think that maybe sort of a round about thing to say and quite honestly truth serum, most OU fans will think that in a parallel unievrse, quite honestly and by large... that, eh...

[go to commercial]

[sooneron]

http://www.weeklyreader.com/readandwriting/content/binary/elmer%20fudd.gif

[sooneron]

Only the Animal would hire a guy with a stammering stutter and a lisp to take up air time

[BornandBred]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this...
I question how great Veneables is as a D-coordinator. Don't get me wrong, I think he's one of the best linebacker coaches in the league, but sometimes I think his schemes are a little too aggressive. He's geared more to a linebackers coach, and he's very good at it.

There are several examples of his less than stellar D-coordinator abilities. I'll only mention two. The first was TGOWWDNS. In this game his scheme failed to account for the man on man coverage of our MLB on the USC TE. We got out classed, and that sucks.

The second was during the Boise St. game. I'm not so mad about getting burned by ALL the trick plays, it was JUST the hook and ladder. There is no reason we shouldn't have had 5 guys playing deep centerfield. Plus, in that situation it's about the only play to call. I know I wasn't even the only one at my party screaming to watch for it. I put that on Coach V. The players should have been preped for that.

I understand that his play calling is aggressive to put pressure on the QB, which we lacked from the D-line last year, but sometimes it's just best to play prevent. I don't think thats in his vocab.

I miss Mike Stoops. Just my opinion. Thoughts?

[cs6000]

Amen to missing Mike Stoops, things just never seemed the same after he left. Maybe the stars were just aligned in 2000, but I'll never forget Bobby Bowden saying they never could figure out our defense in the Orange Bowl.

[soonerinabilene]

When we play the greatest offense on earth, this will be proven true.:rolleyes:

[zeke]

I agree with BornanBred.
I've missed Mike Stoops since he left.

Pat Jones is hard to listen to, stamering, jumping from one thought to another, sort of prickish to boot.

[boomersooner28]

That was the same Bill that a few minutes later referred to Antonio Perkins as "the guy from lawton that returned all those punts a few years back, but I can't remember his name." :rolleyes:

Thats when I turned it off. The Tulsa Sports Animal is the succ. Can't listen to it, have to wait till 2 pm so I can hear some guys that actually know what the hell is going on.

[Widescreen]

Pat Jones deserves respect because he's the winningest coach in OSU history. :D

[snp]

There are several examples of his less than stellar D-coordinator abilities. I'll only mention two. The first was TGOWWDNS. In this game his scheme failed to account for the man on man coverage of our MLB on the USC TE. We got out classed, and that sucks.

That was also against one of the greatest offensive coordinators in the game, Norm Chow. Bryd only had 3 catches for 58 yards and a TD.



The second was during the Boise St. game. I'm not so mad about getting burned by ALL the trick plays, it was JUST the hook and ladder. There is no reason we shouldn't have had 5 guys playing deep centerfield. Plus, in that situation it's about the only play to call. I know I wasn't even the only one at my party screaming to watch for it. I put that on Coach V. The players should have been preped for that.

If Lewis Baker didn't over pursue, game over. I'm sure they are prepped that this type of play could happen.

[olevetonahill]

I say Cut Bobs wages in 1/2 Hire Mike back at what ever the cost !
Untill we do we are Doomed I say Doomed !:mad:

[BornandBred]

I agree that Norm Chow is one of the great offensive minds in the game. But I thought we could have done better. I was feeling a bit masochistic, so I went back and read the play by play of TGOWWDNS. It does appear that Byrd had a smaller roll than I remember. So point goes to SuperNinjaPirate. Smith seemed to eat us alive... but enough with that bad dream.

The Boise St. play was inexcusible. We should have had more players back, period.

I think you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone here that Venables is a better defensive coordinator than Mike Stoops. I think V is a great LB coach and a fair D-coord. And at this level, fair can get you eaten alive.

[soonerinabilene]

Just so you know, when it comes to this kind of stuff, the point will usually always go to superninjapirate.

[BornandBred]

I will have to keep that in mind.

[The_Red_Patriot]

The games we lost last year were not BV's fault.

Our players didnt execute.

[Jason White's Third Knee]

Whoa, whoa, whoa!


Pro wrasslin' is fake?????????:(:eek::(:(

[BornandBred]

Agreed the players didn't execute. As SNP said, if Baker, or Holmes for that matter, doesn't over persue it's a done deal. They bit on the hook part, and the latteral bit them, they should have been ready for that. I don't believe they were. In my eyes, thats a coaching let down. I was not on the sidelines, purhaps V DID tell them to be prepared for that and they just blew execution. It looked in the video that Holmes had prevent and bit too early... IMO he, and 2 other guys, should have been standing on the goal line, waiting to make a stop.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

How the hell did a thread slam dunkin' the 'tards on the Sports Animal turn into a 'Bash Venables' thread?

Is there some kind of mutant *** gene in the water? Do I need my tinfoil hat?

Fact is, Brent Venables, through scheme and an address of the glaring weaknesses in the defense, made some really amazing things happen. Am I the only one that remembers a hundred and a half on the ground versus Watson Brown's Blazers? The over two hundred rushing yards Washington posted against the early porous front four? Damn near all between the tackles?

Point being, Venables fixed the problem through a pretty dang ingenious way of floating a DB in shallow for run support while leaving their asset, speed, on the field with a Nickel look. Placed emphasis on gap responsibility instead of putting a weak D-Line on their heels in a read and react. Which in turn did exactly what it did. Took away the zone read that UAB and Washington both slaughtered us with. Put D-Linemen in a position to control the line of scrimmage instead of scrambling to fight through hat. It freed up linebackers to laterally flow with less traffic. It gave speed at the point of attack and moved the point of attack to the line of scrimmage because of all of these things instead of what was happening, easy establishment of cutback lanes, O-linemen forcing traffic on LBs on the downblock which gave position to cut that lateral flow, which means... You guessed it. Zone reads, counters, and even some downblock veer looks makes your front seven look like clowns.

In other words, scheme and scheme alone fixed our defensive woes in the early season last year. We simply didn't have the horses up front defensively to do what we initially set out to do.

Now if you want to say that all this should've been discovered in the preseason through full speed intersquads, I'll agree 100 percent. Kicker is, you don't see that Sooner offense running a lot of zone read/counter. So while the offense is getting its reps in the scheme doing what it does, so is the defense. And in ones versus ones, this issue won't make itself apparent for this very reason. It wasn't there to be found. So do you make your offense change to test all the facets of your defensive scheme early on, or do you go with what you think will work? Which is what they did, plain and simple. It didn't. At least, not worth a damn as the glaring weaknesses began to show themselves.

But they recognized the problems early. Fixed the problems. And built one hell of a defense to cover those weaknesses while still addressing strengths and staying within a package that was familiar to the squad. Does that make a bad defensive coordinator? No. It speaks volumes to Venables ability to make these changes. To know what needs fixing and fixing it.

Simply put, you can't hang Boise State on Venables. You hang Boise State on a failure to execute on BOTH sides of the ball for our Sooners. And no matter how you boil it down, you could have the greatest scheme in the world offensively AND defensively and if the boys don't execute, you got a bunch of fancy paper and great ideas.

And neither does a bad defensive coordinator make.

[CU Sooner]

I understand that his play calling is aggressive to put pressure on the QB, which we lacked from the D-line last year, but sometimes it's just best to play prevent. I don't think thats in his vocab.

I miss Mike Stoops. Just my opinion. Thoughts?


This may be the first time I have seen someone advocate prevent d. Prevent d has cost as many games as it has saved. I like the fact that Venables does not have prevent in his vocab. I would bet that 90% of the fans would rather see the aggresiveness that he generally shows all game long at the end of games than no rush and 15-20 yard gains on every play and a chance in the end. Do you scream at the TV when this happens?

[BornandBred]

I've obviously struck a nerve, which is great cause I'm ready for football. BTW, Watts and Jones are jackholes.

The adjustments Tulsa_Fireman mentions are why V is a great LB coach. Much of that scheme adjustment has to do with just that, the LBs. I've seen too many years of our DBs getting burned because their eyes are in the backfield. That is a player breakdown, but at some point a coach has to change the players mentality. OU loves to hit and play smashmouth, and I wouldn't take that away for anything. Its something that defines us as a D, and much of that energy comes from Venables. But there has to be a middle ground. Hopefully this year, our DBs will be so good they can walk that middle ground of playing shut down coverages and still blowing people up all over the field.

I don't mean to disrespect Venables, and I'm sure it sounds like I am. He is a great coach. I, personally, think Mike was/is better. But hell, V is learning and growning into his position and hopefully he'll be the greatest D-coordinator OU has ever seen. I would love to see that happen.

[BornandBred]

This may be the first time I have seen someone advocate prevent d. Prevent d has cost as many games as it has saved. I like the fact that Venables does not have prevent in his vocab. I would bet that 90% of the fans would rather see the aggresiveness that he generally shows all game long at the end of games than no rush and 15-20 yard gains on every play and a chance in the end. Do you scream at the TV when this happens?

Prevent sucks as a gerneral defensive philosophy, agreed. But there is a time and a place. I think this was that time and place.

[Tear Down This Wall]

RE: The tight end/linebacker coverage segment of this thread.

Boise State's tight end had 8 catches for 72 yards and a touchdown in the Fiesta Bowl. During the 2006 season, he had only caught as many as five passes once in one game. He entered the game with 21 catches, less than two per game.

So, yes, there was a problem with the linebacker coverage of the tight end at times last year. To have that big, white guy running down the middle of the field converting the first down that led to the hook and lateral was embarassing.

As the White Stripes sang - "Well I've said it once before, but it bears repeating now" ... COVER and TACKLE, please.

[OUmillenium]

This is why I enjoy Bill Watts on the Commercial Animal. He will call somebody out and does not see everything through Crimson colored glasses. I hope our defense is awesome this year but BV has yet to prove to me that he can get it done at a high level.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

The adjustments Tulsa_Fireman mentions are why V is a great LB coach. Much of that scheme adjustment has to do with just that, the LBs.

How? How does changing defensive line technique, bringing a DB down (usually Hammerin' Nic Harris) for run support with speed, while maintaining a Cover 2 look have anything to do with scheme adjustment for the linebackers OTHER than allowing linebackers to flow laterally instead of having to fight off blocks, which in turn puts the point of attack easily 3 or more yards from the line of scrimmage? That's not scheme adjustment because of the linebackers, that's scheme adjustment to free up the linebackers, a strength at OU for God knows how long. Any defensive coach worth two cents will tell you you want your linebackers clean and clear. That's a no brainer. And has squat to do with Venables being an LB coach trying to be a D-Coordinator. It has everything to do with sound defensive principles that are learned as early as grade school.


I've seen too many years of our DBs getting burned because their eyes are in the backfield. That is a player breakdown, but at some point a coach has to change the players mentality.

Tell me Mike Stoops' DBs don't and didn't have their eyes in the backfield and I'll call you blind. Mike swung and still swings a big hammer with his DBs, just like Venables. There's lots of speed going to waste by simply leaving your DBs in space, sittin' on their thumbs and hoping the next play is a route they can cover. DBs are a tool. Two fantastic examples of are what BV did with Nic Harris and how Mike used the Real Roy Williams. How both use corners for back-up contain by playing a lot of zone to keep the field covered. Free safeties that can lay pop and ain't afraid to do it. That's what they coach. Not a coaching failure, but their very coaching style. If you want DBs to sit on their hands with ten yard cushions and a backpedal, Stoops or Venables both ain't gonna get you there.


OU loves to hit and play smashmouth, and I wouldn't take that away for anything. Its something that defines us as a D, and much of that energy comes from Venables. But there has to be a middle ground. Hopefully this year, our DBs will be so good they can walk that middle ground of playing shut down coverages and still blowing people up all over the field.

You gotta have the players to pull it off. This year, obviously the secondary isn't our weakness. It's a pronounced strength. But with strengths, you also have weaknesses, D-End being one of them. Expect teams to give a lot of C gap looks and kick outs from the backside pull to establish the run. That's actually a more scary prospect than last year's front seven, as the set-up slashes the edges of your front and attacks contain and forces linebackers to again, pursue laterally which given enough of will eventually once again open up the counter and the zone read as your LBs run all over creation chasing ghosts to the far backside.

Good scheme will solve these problems. There might be kinks to work out initially strictly because of the known weaknesses. And I'd bet the farm we're already ahead of the game from the lessons we learned last season and the greater emphasis on contact this year. It'll be Brent Venables fixing those problems as a top flight D-Coordinator.

Because that's what he is.

[OUmillenium]

Hope so Fireman!

[BornandBred]

That's what they coach. Not a coaching failure, but their very coaching style. If you want DBs to sit on their hands with ten yard cushions and a backpedal, Stoops or Venables both ain't gonna get you there.
Again I think there is a time and a place to play aggressive, in my opinion, Stoops was better at making that determiniation.

But with strengths, you also have weaknesses, D-End being one of them.
I think we're not deep, but will be better there than many people think. Hopefully our DTs can get a press enough to disrupt those crackdowns and backside pulls.

Where does BJW weigh in? I'd like to get your opinion.

[oumartin]

I miss M.Stoops too but there were games that his defenses looked pretty inept! Both defenses were aggressive with a high risk high reward. The difference now is you don't see the DB's picking off 4 passes a game and returning 2 for touchdowns. you don't see the linebackers picking off balls and you don't see defensive ends knocking balls loose from the qb's now.

[oumartin]

and on BJW. well isn't Bob coaching the secondary more now?

[Taxman71]

I think people forget that Brent Venables's was our D-Coordinator when we held the whorns to a mighty 0 the year before they won the NC with alleged Superman at QB. That happened despite our offense not milking the clock much that game.

[oumartin]

um, we also had Pelini at that time too. Venables has only had the duty himself for two years.

[snp]

During conference play teams usually achieved their lowest scoring output of the year.The first numbers are the total points scored. Although if you discredit the two defensive touchdowns made by Texas Tech and Texas the amount lowers.

10 Texas 28 3rd (2nd)
34 Iowa St. 9 1st
24 Colorado 3 1st
26 Missouri 10 1st
17 Texas A&M 16 2nd
34 Texas Tech 24 3rd (2nd)
36 Baylor (TX) 10 1st
27 Oklahoma St. 21 2nd
21 Nebraska 7 1st
1.66 (1.44)


That's a pretty good defense if you ask me.

[The_Red_Patriot]

I am tired of hearing all of this "I miss Mike Stoops" crying BS.

Mikes a great coach and I am a believer in Brent. Last year I blame our losses on our players. We didnt execute on defense and yes, the right plays were called.

Its up to our players to execute on the field. They didnt.

[oumartin]

I'm tired of hearing our players dent execute. Heck Blake might have been a great coach but maybe his players dent execute.

Both sides are responsible

[Fraggle145]

...I understand that his play calling is aggressive to put pressure on the QB, which we lacked from the D-line last year, but sometimes it's just best to play prevent. I don't think thats in his vocab.

I miss Mike Stoops. Just my opinion. Thoughts?

I think the end of the Oregon game (pre-debacle) is an example of why we shouldn't play prevent anymore... just a thought.

[Soonerman08]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this...
I question how great Veneables is as a D-coordinator. Don't get me wrong, I think he's one of the best linebacker coaches in the league, but sometimes I think his schemes are a little too aggressive. He's geared more to a linebackers coach, and he's very good at it.

There are several examples of his less than stellar D-coordinator abilities. I'll only mention two. The first was TGOWWDNS. In this game his scheme failed to account for the man on man coverage of our MLB on the USC TE. We got out classed, and that sucks.

The second was during the Boise St. game. I'm not so mad about getting burned by ALL the trick plays, it was JUST the hook and ladder. There is no reason we shouldn't have had 5 guys playing deep centerfield. Plus, in that situation it's about the only play to call. I know I wasn't even the only one at my party screaming to watch for it. I put that on Coach V. The players should have been preped for that.

I understand that his play calling is aggressive to put pressure on the QB, which we lacked from the D-line last year, but sometimes it's just best to play prevent. I don't think thats in his vocab.

I miss Mike Stoops. Just my opinion. Thoughts?


Um first off did you even watch the Fiesta Bowl?! What do you think got us beat by the hook and ladder? The prevent defense! Plus Stoops himself called that defense that wasn't Venables call he even admitted to it in a post-game interview. Second if you go back and watch the replays of the game on the hook and ladder, there were 3 guys ready to make the tackle and that is when the ball was pitched to an oncoming guy. This put our guys out position to stop him. You can't tell me that you saw that play coming before hand. There is no way in hell, no one saw it.

[SoonerBBall]

Again I think there is a time and a place to play aggressive, in my opinion, Stoops was better at making that determiniation.

Then you weren't watching the defense very closely. We were aggressive damn near 100% of the time with MS. Did you ever see Brandon Everage sit back make sure he took someone down? Hell no. Every tackle he attempted had him rocketing towards an opposing player with his head down.

Also, you have Derek Strait and Roy Williams to thank for making MS look really good a whole lot of times. Those two players made playes all over the field every game. Hell, with DS we didn't even have to worry about half of the field.

[AZSOONER]

Amen to missing Mike Stoops, things just never seemed the same after he left. Maybe the stars were just aligned in 2000, but I'll never forget Bobby Bowden saying they never could figure out our defense in the Orange Bowl.
I'm convinced if Mike stayed for the Sugar Bowl we beat LSU.

[The_Red_Patriot]

I'm convinced if Mike stayed for the Sugar Bowl we beat LSU.

Wha???? They only scored two offensive tds.

Our playcalling on offense was bogus. I defend coaching alot but that game was terrible. Chuck Long lost that game for us.

[BornandBred]

Um first off did you even watch the Fiesta Bowl?! What do you think got us beat by the hook and ladder? The prevent defense! Plus Stoops himself called that defense that wasn't Venables call he even admitted to it in a post-game interview. Second if you go back and watch the replays of the game on the hook and ladder, there were 3 guys ready to make the tackle and that is when the ball was pitched to an oncoming guy. This put our guys out position to stop him. You can't tell me that you saw that play coming before hand. There is no way in hell, no one saw it.
Over pursuit got us beat (on that play). That comes from aggression getting in the way of judgment. I think with a proper prevent in that situation, they don't bite on the hook. And yes, I did call the play. I thought it was pretty obvious that there had to be some kind of down field misdirection, perhaps a latteral situation similar to Stanford/Cal kick return. The hook and ladder was built for just such a situation. And if you watch the replay, it did look like they had a trailer behind the post-latteral ball carrier incase he needed to pitch but he decided to break for it, purhaps it was just a blocker that fell behind, not sure.

[BornandBred]

I think the end of the Oregon game (pre-debacle) is an example of why we shouldn't play prevent anymore... just a thought.

This is a perfect example of how it can bite you in the a$$. I still think being hyper aggressive 100% of the time is a bad idea. Sometimes, you just need to throw a changeup.

[BornandBred]

Also, you have Derek Strait and Roy Williams to thank for making MS look really good a whole lot of times. Those two players made playes all over the field every game. Hell, with DS we didn't even have to worry about half of the field.

There is a lot of truth in this. Maybe it was those guys making Stoops look good. But, I don't think we're short of DB talent. I would have to give the edge in talent pool to MS though.

[MojoRisen]

Venables is a fun coach, he is tough and recruits his arse off - clearly our best recruiter! I do think he over coaches position as apposed to aggressiveness - because the kids are more worried about technique than they are making the intimidating tackle- not that V doesn't coach that he does - it is just that the tecnique grid is what get's in the kids head too much and is an adjust ment period....

Every time Mike Reed get's on the Field he is an absolute animal - with exception of this last scrimmage since we been hearing about his technique and positioning being better- not is bone jarring tackle totals... Just my spin.

[CU Sooner]

This is a perfect example of how it can bite you in the a$$. I still think being hyper aggressive 100% of the time is a bad idea. Sometimes, you just need to throw a changeup.

So what are you saying? Play prevent when you want to play aggressive and play aggressive when you want to play Prevent? Or the typical monday morning call, he shoulda i woulda crap.

[MojoRisen]

Never play prevent- 4 down blizt em hard

[Soonerman08]

Over pursuit got us beat (on that play). That comes from aggression getting in the way of judgment. I think with a proper prevent in that situation, they don't bite on the hook. And yes, I did call the play. I thought it was pretty obvious that there had to be some kind of down field misdirection, perhaps a latteral situation similar to Stanford/Cal kick return. The hook and ladder was built for just such a situation. And if you watch the replay, it did look like they had a trailer behind the post-latteral ball carrier incase he needed to pitch but he decided to break for it, purhaps it was just a blocker that fell behind, not sure.



Well ladies and gentlemen looks like this guy needs to be our D-Coordinator. He can see plays or better yet... trick plays before they happen. :rolleyes: Proper prevent you say? When you have every defensive back and linebacker 10-20 yards back in coverage you can't get any better prevent defense than that. The first problem is...don't call prevent defense! We should have learned that from the Oregon game.

[Taxman71]

Every time Mike Reed get's on the Field he is an absolute animal - with exception of this last scrimmage since we been hearing about his technique and positioning being better- not is bone jarring tackle totals... Just my spin.

That sounds like the pre-Stoops days in Norman....bone-jarring hits on 1st and 2nd down followed by an 80 yard run up the middle b/c the linebacker didn't stay in his gap. Virtually all our LB's under Stoops have had that confused look for a year or so, yet they all becomes bona fide studs thereafter. There is a reason Venables makes the $$ he does.

[BornandBred]

So what are you saying? Play prevent when you want to play aggressive and play aggressive when you want to play Prevent? Or the typical monday morning call, he shoulda i woulda crap.
Don't really understand what you are asking, so I'll just clarify my point. I don't like a prevent defense because it gives up a ton of yards. BUT, in that situation give up all the yards if need be, just not the endzone. I think having at least 3 DEEP center field, ie endzone, might have stopped it better, and let it develop more infront of them. Just my opinion. Purhaps this is Monday quarterbacking, but isn't that what these boards are for?


Well ladies and gentlemen looks like this guy needs to be our D-Coordinator. He can see plays or better yet... trick plays before they happen.
You can think what you want about what I did or didn't expect. What I'm saying was that it was a situation where there were two options: a hail mary, or some kind of trick play with pitches etc. I had faith in our guys out jumping Boise St., so the HM didn't worry me. The second seemed to fit the Boise St. M.O. and be the only real threat. I bet you, even though some may not agree with me about BV being flawed, as most coaches are, many people saw the hook and ladder coming. Many people I know did.

[Rogue]

Fireman's breakdowns are interesting. I don't understand them all, but it sure reads purdy. ;)

[CatfishSooner]

I think we should have seen the hook and ladder coming too.