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oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:06 PM
She has had it with the public school system it seems up here.
First they wouldn't hand out a school supply list until three days prior to school.
Then they put in bold Capital letters what was not exceptable. Like perforated(sp) spiral notebooks. Which of course they do not have.
She said it cost 50.00 bucks just for his school supplies.

I know we had a thread on this but what in the heck is going on here with the school systems? I understand they have to have supplies but why the strict demands on types of supplies and specifying brands they have to purchase and singling out those kids that don't bring exactly what was on the list.

Its not the kids fault that Wal Mart doens't have the specified items!

olevetonahill
8/15/2007, 11:11 PM
shoot em all , let God sortem out .

SoonerBorn68
8/15/2007, 11:29 PM
That's what happens when teachers decide they need the best.

Last year we had to buy sets of a specific dry erase marker set for each of our three kids--the most expensive of course. Each had about 24 in their class. Who the hell is going to use 24 complete sets of dry erase markers in a year?

Of course the school was willing to sell school supply "kits" for the lazy parents. It was the oversupply the rest of us bought the previous year!

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:32 PM
you should be sleeping!

Sooner24
8/15/2007, 11:35 PM
SoonerBorn68, that is without a doubt the scariest avatar I have ever seen.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:37 PM
Just thank your lucky stars its not a picture of himself in that avatar. ;)

SoonerBorn68
8/15/2007, 11:37 PM
SoonerBorn68, that is without a doubt the scariest avatar I have ever seen.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


:D

Sooner24
8/15/2007, 11:40 PM
She has had it with the public school system it seems up here.
First they wouldn't hand out a school supply list until three days prior to school.
Then they put in bold Capital letters what was not exceptable. Like perforated(sp) spiral notebooks. Which of course they do not have.
She said it cost 50.00 bucks just for his school supplies.

I know we had a thread on this but what in the heck is going on here with the school systems? I understand they have to have supplies but why the strict demands on types of supplies and specifying brands they have to purchase and singling out those kids that don't bring exactly what was on the list.

Its not the kids fault that Wal Mart doens't have the specified items!


What used to frost me was getting everything on the list and then they wouldn't use half of the stuff we got.

PhxSooner
8/15/2007, 11:43 PM
We have to buy specific brands and colors of things. It took me four tries to find a "heavy duty" orange folder. Each second-grader had to have four dozen pencils, which all went into the class "pile". How the heck are they going to go through that many in a year?

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:48 PM
well I think they are now responsible for purchasing the teachers items. What a crock.

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:49 PM
Well you do know only crayola crayons color properly don't cha? :D

OCUDad
8/15/2007, 11:52 PM
shoot em all , let God sortem out .Vet, is there any problem for which that is not the solution?:rolleyes:

PhxSooner
8/15/2007, 11:53 PM
And only Elmer's glue. And Fiskar scissors.

We have to provide a white board eraser, but you can send in a white sock. A few teachers in the older grades make the kids buy a grading pen, which just seems cruel.

Ike
8/15/2007, 11:54 PM
Be glad it's only 50 bucks.

I saw in the local paper that the school system just on the other side of the river from me put M$ Office 2007 on their list of school supplies, and sent a letter to parents that their kids would have all manner of problems doing their work if they had some other version, or no version at all.

The retail price for it is something like 500 bucks, but the students can get it through the school for "only" 100 bucks. :rolleyes:

PhxSooner
8/15/2007, 11:55 PM
True story...

My husband works with a guy who had kids in the Scottsdale system a few years ago. His wife had a friend who made the mistake of sending the wrong color folder to school for her either first or second grader. The teacher called, concerned that they sent in the wrong color, and asked if there were "problems" in the house/family. All because a green folder came in insted of a red.

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:56 PM
Before long we will have to provide the teacher with gas or a vehicle to get to school

PhxSooner
8/15/2007, 11:56 PM
The middle schools in our district now require a flash drive.

Ike
8/15/2007, 11:57 PM
True story...

My husband works with a guy who had kids in the Scottsdale system a few years ago. His wife had a friend who made the mistake of sending the wrong color folder to school for her either first or second grader. The teacher called, concerned that they sent in the wrong color, and asked if there were "problems" in the house/family. All because a green folder came in insted of a red.


I would have answered "why yes there is a problem. You see, his mother is red-green colorblind you insensitive yainch"

oumartin
8/15/2007, 11:58 PM
It appears teachers just look for stuff to cause kids problems yet let things like bullying and poor behavior go.. I'm glad I'm no longer in school and I feel bad for my children

yermom
8/16/2007, 12:58 AM
if/when i have kids, the teachers are going to hate me ;)

oumartin
8/16/2007, 01:22 AM
Hey Yermon you gonna adopt? :D

StoopTroup
8/16/2007, 02:17 AM
Just send them to school with a scratch-off ticket and a note that your still scratching off the other $49.00 worth to see if they get any supplies this year.

yermom
8/16/2007, 02:23 AM
Hey Yermon you gonna adopt? :D

i'm not taking your kids :P

Preservation Parcels
8/16/2007, 05:00 AM
In Michigan, someone sued the state for not providing a "free education." All of the sudden, the schools started providing sheets of paper, pencils, gym uniforms, and everything else that was required by the teachers. The janitor could be regularly seen sweeping up large piles of discarded pencils.

In Philadelphia last year, a school kitchen (and the free meal programs) were incapacitated for a day. The news showed a woman screaming, "What am I supposed to do, go to the store and buy lunch meat and make sandwiches for my kids?" :rolleyes:

There needs to be a reasonable amount of responsibility shared by teachers providing realistic lists far enough in advance to get them at decent price, parents providing functional supplies, and kids using them well in the learning process.

Jerk
8/16/2007, 06:02 AM
The news showed a woman screaming, "What am I supposed to do, go to the store and buy lunch meat and make sandwiches for my kids?" :rolleyes:



I wonder which party she votes for.

Okla-homey
8/16/2007, 06:07 AM
In Michigan, someone sued the state for not providing a "free education." All of the sudden, the schools started providing sheets of paper, pencils, gym uniforms, and everything else that was required by the teachers. The janitor could be regularly seen sweeping up large piles of discarded pencils.

In Philadelphia last year, a school kitchen (and the free meal programs) were incapacitated for a day. The news showed a woman screaming, "What am I supposed to do, go to the store and buy lunch meat and make sandwiches for my kids?" :rolleyes:

There needs to be a reasonable amount of responsibility shared by teachers providing realistic lists far enough in advance to get them at decent price, parents providing functional supplies, and kids using them well in the learning process.

This woman is wise indeed. The Bible says a wise woman is to be treasured like jewels. Me likey.;)

1stTimeCaller
8/16/2007, 06:31 AM
Other than a few notebooks, a folder or two and a pencil, what does a middle school kid need in order to learn in school?

King Crimson
8/16/2007, 06:35 AM
Other than a few notebooks, a folder or two and a pencil, what does a middle school kid need in order to learn in school?

a 2,500$ macbook saves all the cost of pencils and paper, grampaw.

Okla-homey
8/16/2007, 06:36 AM
Other than a few notebooks, a folder or two and a pencil, what does a middle school kid need in order to learn in school?

You have much to learn grasshoppa. The little mush-filled mind requires a veritable panapoly of pricey expendable material as carefully considered and mandated by public school fiat.

Sooner Born Sooner Bred
8/16/2007, 06:40 AM
I wonder which party she votes for.She probably doesn't vote.

jk the sooner fan
8/16/2007, 06:41 AM
well I think they are now responsible for purchasing the teachers items. What a crock.

i think if you knew the money that teachers lay out every year for supplies for kids, you'd be shocked........money out of their own pocket, money they dont get back.....

AlbqSooner
8/16/2007, 06:43 AM
A few teachers in the older grades make the kids buy a grading pen, which just seems cruel.
Kinda like when Grandma used to make us go out and cut our own switch so she could whip us.;)

OUinFLA
8/16/2007, 06:44 AM
geez, when I was in school, all we had to have was a Big Chief note pad and a #2 pencil.

Which my Dad complained about, bringing up the fact that all he was required to have was a flat rock, a chisel, and a hammer.

KsSooner
8/16/2007, 06:44 AM
What happens if you do not buy all of the supplies on the list? Is there a conference? Kids can't attend class? Get a failing grade?

Newbomb Turk
8/16/2007, 07:00 AM
What happens if you do not buy all of the supplies on the list? Is there a conference? Kids can't attend class? Get a failing grade?

at my kids middle school, they told him he wouldn't get a locker until he brought everything.

So school started yesterday and he brought everything.
They told the kids they wouldn't get lockers until Friday. :rolleyes:

Newbomb Turk
8/16/2007, 07:01 AM
i think if you knew the money that teachers lay out every year for supplies for kids, you'd be shocked........money out of their own pocket, money they dont get back.....

yeah, but they make tons of money so they can afford it.

1stTimeCaller
8/16/2007, 07:05 AM
181 days a year and they start at what, $30k. Not bad for an 8-3, M-F job where you get a few months off during the year.

sooner_born_1960
8/16/2007, 07:07 AM
What happens if you do not buy all of the supplies on the list? Is there a conference? Kids can't attend class? Get a failing grade?
I think they follow olevet's rule.

King Crimson
8/16/2007, 07:34 AM
it's why we shouldn't pay taxes (yeah!) and then bitch about how bad the public schools are....that we shouldn't pay taxes for.

i don't have the answer, but i do think there are some societal obligations we ought to meet. i think education is one of them.

VeeJay
8/16/2007, 07:34 AM
I think everyone should tip their teachers a grand at the beginning of the school year and a grand at the end; and maybe a $500 Christmas bonus.

Make that three grand at the end because they need something to carry them over.

85Sooner
8/16/2007, 08:30 AM
if/when i have kids, the teachers are going to hate me ;)


Yeah , my oldest starts next year and they are in for one hell of a shock. I will buy supplies as my son needs them. Not by dictation of any government employee. If any teachers take offense, sorry but you all are the ones who can change it and it continues on and on so don't expect a bumch of sympathy from me for your plight.

SoonerJack
8/16/2007, 08:30 AM
181 days a year and they start at what, $30k. Not bad for an 8-3, M-F job where you get a few months off during the year.

1TC, you have obviously never been married to a teacher.

SoonerJack
8/16/2007, 08:31 AM
She has had it with the public school system it seems up here.
First they wouldn't hand out a school supply list until three days prior to school.
Then they put in bold Capital letters what was not exceptable. Like perforated(sp) spiral notebooks. Which of course they do not have.
She said it cost 50.00 bucks just for his school supplies.

I know we had a thread on this but what in the heck is going on here with the school systems? I understand they have to have supplies but why the strict demands on types of supplies and specifying brands they have to purchase and singling out those kids that don't bring exactly what was on the list.

Its not the kids fault that Wal Mart doens't have the specified items!

Did you or your wife ask the teacher about the supplies? If no satisfaction there, a chat with the principal might prove helpful. All I'm sayin' is that sometimes there are reasons and nobody bothers to find out what they are.

Mjcpr
8/16/2007, 08:56 AM
Yeah , my oldest starts next year and they are in for one hell of a shock. I will buy supplies as my son needs them. Not by dictation of any government employee. If any teachers take offense, sorry but you all are the ones who can change it and it continues on and on so don't expect a bumch of sympathy from me for your plight.

That ought to work out groovy for y'all.

1stTimeCaller
8/16/2007, 09:12 AM
1TC, you have obviously never been married to a teacher.

just raised by one.


They get a lunch hour and a planning period during the day, if they're teaching younguns they get a break at recess and another when the kids go to PE and music also.

They get a few weeks off around Christmas, they get the summers off. If they work more that 181 days they get extra pay. 181 days*7 hours a day = 1267 hours per year worked. Most other jobs are based on working 2000 hours per year or 250 days per year, not 181 like Oklahoma teachers.

Hamhock
8/16/2007, 09:27 AM
i make my kids do their lessons with a stick and a patch of dirt.

85Sooner
8/16/2007, 09:31 AM
That ought to work out groovy for y'all.


We will give it a year or two.

The stories I am hearing from family and friends are about how bad the public school system is and they don't care what it takes to get them out of the system. Theres always private school and home schooling. (BTW these are folks in the quail creek and edmond area. Areas generally known as part of the best. So what does that say. At this time they are about 50-50

TopDaugIn2000
8/16/2007, 09:33 AM
WHEW! sure glad that lottery of ours fixed all of these teacher and student problems. what a relief!

and to the teach that requires an ORANGE folder....**** YOU!

frankensooner
8/16/2007, 09:35 AM
My children attend Edmond schools and the schools are great. Maybe your family and friends don't like the many other cultures now part of our school district. I am glad there is a lot of diversity at our schools.

JohnnyMack
8/16/2007, 09:45 AM
My wife and I are already putting money aside to pay for Thing 1 and Thing 2 to go to private school. Gonna suck. But I gotta do it.

yermom
8/16/2007, 10:03 AM
i'd at least check out the University School at TU

http://www.uschool.utulsa.edu/

i "graduated" from there, but only went for 2 years, i would have been a lot better off if i had gone when i was younger. the math, science and language stuff i learned basically carried me through public high school

(this is assuming your kids are smarter than you are ;))

gh55
8/16/2007, 10:45 AM
1TC, you have obviously never been married to a teacher.

or spent a few days with some of the "children" they have to try to teach
then deal with their parents.

yermom
8/16/2007, 10:46 AM
what does that have to do with the brand of spiral notebook or the color of the folder you bring?

gh55
8/16/2007, 10:53 AM
you are right, the brand or color of notebook should not matter but
I wouldn't hold it against them if they didn't allow orange.

King Crimson
8/16/2007, 11:02 AM
50$ for 4 1/2 months, 11 bucks a month.

and teachers may not work in the summer, but their salary reflects that.

god, the way you people cry. there are certainly enough "public schools" suck/i hate paying taxes threads on this board in the last half decade. choose one.

soonerscuba
8/16/2007, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I can't believe some people would get mad about paying $100 bucks for a year of fancy book learnin'.

King Crimson
8/16/2007, 11:14 AM
once they let those hanged-tooth socialist teachers get a hold of yer kid, they'll all start voting for Eugene Debs.

StuIsTheMan
8/16/2007, 11:19 AM
Like wise here in Oregon we have similar problems with school supplies...
Fortunatly we live in one of the "Better" school districts here in portland. But the last few years we have had a "Surplus" of supplies at the end of the year, yeah the supplies the parents bought. And what does the School district do with this Surplus? Save them for next year...NO! Give them to less fortunate districts...NO! They donate them to the local prison school system so PRISONERS CAN USE THEM...WTF!

SoonerJack
8/16/2007, 11:24 AM
just raised by one.


They get a lunch 20 minutes and a possibly a planning period during the day, if they're teaching younguns they may get a break at recess (assuming all of their kids go to recess) and another when the kids go to PE and music also (assuming all of their kids go to recess).

They get a few weeks off around Christmas, they get the summers off. If they work more that 181 days they get extra pay. 181 days*7 hours a day [assuming they work only those 7 hours and don't bring work home with them] = 1267 hours per year worked. Most other jobs are based on working 2000 hours per year or 250 days per year, not 181 like Oklahoma teachers.

I made some pertinent edits, but should further mention that my wife's a special education teacher and has the hardest job of anyone in the world. To give you an idea, one of the indicators as to if she's had a good or a bad day is if there was any poo flung that day. Not joking.

mxATVracer10
8/16/2007, 11:36 AM
181 days a year and they start at what, $30k. Not bad for an 8-3, M-F job where you get a few months off during the year.

On paper, yeah it may seem like a good gig, but there are TONS of undocumented hours that are involved. Well, at least for my parents there were. Pops was AD, head boys basketball coach, and assistant coach in football and baseball; mom was (and still is) Indian Ed. person and event planner for the school, as well as coaches wife. I guess it wouldn't be near as bad for a typical teacher, but when coaching is involved, it becomes a year round job. Not to mention dealing with the @$$hat parents that think their kid is the bestest athelete evar.:rolleyes:

Mjcpr
8/16/2007, 11:41 AM
I made some pertinent edits, but should further mention that my wife's a special education teacher and has the hardest job of anyone in the world. To give you an idea, one of the indicators as to if she's had a good or a bad day is if there was any poo flung that day. Not joking.

1TC can relate to that too, he was educated by a slew of SE teachers.

Mjcpr
8/16/2007, 11:42 AM
On paper, yeah it may seem like a good gig, but there are TONS of undocumented hours that are involved. Well, at least for my parents there were. Pops was AD, head boys basketball coach, and assistant coach in football and baseball; mom was (and still is) Indian Ed. person and event planner for the school, as well as coaches wife. I guess it wouldn't be near as bad for a typical teacher, but when coaching is involved, it becomes a year round job. Not to mention dealing with the @$$hat parents that think their kid is the bestest athelete evar.:rolleyes:

Don't teachers get additional pay for each coaching gig they have?

mxATVracer10
8/16/2007, 11:50 AM
yeah a little bit, but not enough to make it worth while... Unless, you like dealin with chillruns and molding little minds of course.

I remember one night on our way home after one of those heartbreaking buzzer beater type losses (and the subsequent complaints from @$$hat parent that thought their kid should have been in at the end of the game) my dad said "son, whatever you decided to do in life, DONT be a coach, its just not worth it." I listened, and now I'm hiring messicans to build windows :texan:

Mjcpr
8/16/2007, 11:51 AM
my dad said "son, whatever you decided to do in life, DONT be a coach, its just not worth it." I listened, and now I'm hiring messicans to build windows :texan:

That must've been before he got a peek at Stoops' salary. :D

Soonrboy
8/16/2007, 12:02 PM
teachers who bitch about what supplies they get from the parents need to be slapped in the face and reminded that it is supposed to be a free education. It has been my experience that the higher income schools tend to have the whiniest teachers...teachers at my school are grateful when the parents send anything. Plus my teachers work twice as hard as others to overcome home lives. I'm proud of them. They do a great job.

mxATVracer10
8/16/2007, 12:13 PM
That must've been before he got a peek at Stoops' salary. :D

I probably didnt help that this was at a class "A" school. Had it been Union, Jenks, etc. maybe it would be a different story ;)

royalfan5
8/16/2007, 12:26 PM
Don't teachers get additional pay for each coaching gig they have?
Not very much in many cases. My High School FB,BB, and Track coach figured that he made somewhere around a 1.50 an hour for his coaching gig.

r5TPsooner
8/16/2007, 12:47 PM
That ought to work out groovy for y'all.


Yep, that kid will be "blacklisted" by the faculty faster than you can say "tight wad."

Save your kid the heartache and embarrassment and purchase the supplies that the teacher requests!

oumartin
8/16/2007, 04:34 PM
Request? oh no there is no requesting. ALL CAPS AND IN BOLD IS CONSIDERED YELLING IN THIS MODERN AGE IS IT NOT?

Pricetag
8/16/2007, 05:03 PM
Request? oh no there is no requesting. ALL CAPS AND IN BOLD IS CONSIDERED YELLING IN THIS MODERN AGE IS IT NOT?
People are stupid. They won't get it unless you spell it out like that.

blueyedsooner
8/16/2007, 05:54 PM
Our school district never prints the supply list that we come up with....they always print previous years. Our team tries to dwindle it down to necessities so we don't end up with a bunch of things we don't use or that WE have to store. 1 pack of crayons...whatever brand will be just fine, if your child needs more in the year, I'll send a note.
I had a ton of kiddos today that didn't have the items on our list. Oh well....we do have some $ that we are giving at the beginning of the year that I always make sure to use, to purchase "extras".

There is one thing that irks me a bit about this "free education" though.... we got an email saying "by law" we are no longer allowed to charge for field trips b/c we are to provide a free education. Now we can ask for donations....HAHAHHA! Yeah right. Some parents might offer to donate, but if you word a letter to parents like that, not many will bring money. To go on these field trips we have to pay the bus by mileage, plus admission to what we will be attending. Teachers are expected to make up the difference???? That just doesn't work with my checkbook sorry. My class will be taking a nature walk to the park for their field trip I'm afraid.....

Mjcpr
8/16/2007, 06:57 PM
So if you're about to have a baby that means you'll only have to work about 6 months this year, right?



*runs away*

King Crimson
8/16/2007, 07:10 PM
12 bucks a month is way too much to pay for your kids, but cable or direct TV is the awesome.

C&CDean
8/16/2007, 07:22 PM
Yeah, all you numbskulls whining about school supplies are also the same numbskulls who buy your kids hundreds of dollars worth of video games, toys, and ****.

STFU and buy your kids' ****ing supplies. If it says "orange" folder just send them with a crimson one. Anybody who specifies orange is too stupid to know the difference anyhow.

def_lazer_fc
8/16/2007, 07:30 PM
Yeah, all you numbskulls whining about school supplies are also the same numbskulls who buy your kids hundreds of dollars worth of video games, toys, and ****.

STFU and buy your kids' ****ing supplies. If it says "orange" folder just send them with a crimson one. Anybody who specifies orange is too stupid to know the difference anyhow.
hehe

Okla-homey
8/16/2007, 07:35 PM
181 days a year and they start at what, $30k. Not bad for an 8-3, M-F job where you get a few months off during the year.

Dont forget at least two weeks off at Christmas WITH PAY and that spring break dealio. Oh, and all those BS "in-service" days.

The whole thing is a massive rip-off. If I were Emperor of Oklahoma, I would order teachers to show up every weekday whether school was "in" or not to work on their danged lesson plans, do research, clean their classrooms and do all that "in-service" crap which is just an excuse for more days off during the school year. They would get the same holidays as any other state employee.

r5TPsooner
8/16/2007, 09:11 PM
Yeah, all you numbskulls whining about school supplies are also the same numbskulls who buy your kids hundreds of dollars worth of video games, toys, and ****.

STFU and buy your kids' ****ing supplies. If it says "orange" folder just send them with a crimson one. Anybody who specifies orange is too stupid to know the difference anyhow.



HeeHeeHee.

Preach it!

r5TPsooner
8/16/2007, 09:16 PM
Dont forget at least two weeks off at Christmas WITH PAY and that spring break dealio. Oh, and all those BS "in-service" days.

The whole thing is a massive rip-off. If I were Emperor of Oklahoma, I would order teachers to show up every weekday whether school was "in" or not to work on their danged lesson plans, do research, clean their classrooms and do all that "in-service" crap which is just an excuse for more days off during the school year. They would get the same holidays as any other state employee.


What about the teachers (most of them) who take work home with them every nite plus have there own families to manage in the process?

I know for a fact that my daughter's kindergarten teacher was up until 2am making sure she had enough supplies for all of her students plus touching off a lesson plan.

I guess the spring and x-mas breaks make up for that in your mind, correct?

You're simply wrong on this topic!

jk the sooner fan
8/16/2007, 09:17 PM
the schools on the military bases used to organize a store, where the parent teacher groups got all the stuff on the cheap, and sold it as one package for a low price.......the PTA made money and the kids got exactly what they needed without the parents having to drive all over hell and back trying to find an orange binder

PhxSooner
8/16/2007, 09:31 PM
Not only did I have to buy an orange folder, but the teacher is a Nebraska fan. You'd think she'd have slightly better taste in colors. It could have been worse, though. Last year my son had a fanatical Ohio State grad for a teacher who taught them the fight song for the week of the Michigan game. We didn't admit to cheering for Michigan.

jk the sooner fan
8/16/2007, 09:34 PM
Dont forget at least two weeks off at Christmas WITH PAY and that spring break dealio. Oh, and all those BS "in-service" days.

The whole thing is a massive rip-off. If I were Emperor of Oklahoma, I would order teachers to show up every weekday whether school was "in" or not to work on their danged lesson plans, do research, clean their classrooms and do all that "in-service" crap which is just an excuse for more days off during the school year. They would get the same holidays as any other state employee.

i think you should walk a mile (school year) in their shoes and then report back with what your thoughts are on the subject

sanantoniosooner
8/16/2007, 09:51 PM
Homey isn't wrong a lot.

But when he is wrong........he goes all out.

Soonrboy
8/16/2007, 09:55 PM
Yeah, with this and the posts about the retards...lot of disrespect going on for things he obviously has no clue about.

Ike
8/16/2007, 10:29 PM
After watching what teaching math for 20 years has done to my mom, there isn't enough money on the planet that would make me want to do that. Which is sad. Because the actual teaching part of the job is something I find to be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, that comprises about 20% of the things a teacher has to do.


Oh and about the breaks they get, IMO, they are well deserved. Mom was only ever available for non-emergency purposes during the Xmas and Summer. Weeknights and weekends during the year she often spent grading homework, writing assignments, tests or quizzes, prepping or taking kids to mathcounts competitions, or any number of different things that there just aren't enough hours in the working day to complete.

yeah, she could have made it easier on herself by making multiple choice scantron tests and homeworks and re-using them every year, but doing so would mean never really knowing what her kids need work on, because to do so would probably only make cheating worse.

85Sooner
8/17/2007, 07:50 AM
1. Cut Admin salaries (superintendents etc...) by half.
2. Give teachers a raise and bonuses based on merit (pre-test at first of year, post-test at end of year).
3. Tell the union to take a flying leap.
4. Require no bilingual classes. All classes to be taught in english.
5. Teachers would work 12 months out of the year. A standard 250 day work year

6. The three r's would be paramount.
7. P.E. would be mandatory every year
8. One of the arts, would be mandatory each year for each student
9. One science would be mandatory for each year
10. All students would be required to attend the full 6 hours/classes per day

There would be a start

Hamhock
8/17/2007, 07:59 AM
Dont forget at least two weeks off at Christmas WITH PAY and that spring break dealio. Oh, and all those BS "in-service" days.

The whole thing is a massive rip-off. If I were Emperor of Oklahoma, I would order teachers to show up every weekday whether school was "in" or not to work on their danged lesson plans, do research, clean their classrooms and do all that "in-service" crap which is just an excuse for more days off during the school year. They would get the same holidays as any other state employee.


If you were Emperor of Oklahoma you'd have to have someone start your car for you each day.

The NEA is one mean lobbying mutha.

Hamhock
8/17/2007, 08:01 AM
What about the teachers (most of them) who take work home with them every nite plus have there own families to manage in the process?




the notion that teachers are the only salaried people in the working world that work at their jobs outside of 8-5, and that they deserve worship for doing such, sorta gets old.

r5TPsooner
8/17/2007, 10:48 AM
the notion that teachers are the only salaried people in the working world that work at their jobs outside of 8-5, and that they deserve worship for doing such, sorta gets old.


I don't remember stating that teachers are the ONLY ones who take work home and I never said they deserve WORSHIPING in my post at all. Most people bring work home with them but @ $30k a year, they should get a little more respect and courtesy than they do for WHAT they do.

If any of you think that you can do a better job of schooling your kid, stay at home at home school your kid yourself. I guarantee it will cost you more than $25-$50 in school supplies if you do it correctly.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2007, 10:55 AM
I don't understand why teachers complain about their wages. Did they think they were going to make $60k for working 3/4 of a year as a teacher?

My mom never complained while I was within hearing range. She turned down jobs in Houston as a Geologist to become a teacher in Oklahoma. She wanted a job that would allow her to be home when her kids were out of school. She knew that teaching school didn't pay much but it let her raise my brother and me.

Hamhock
8/17/2007, 10:56 AM
If any of you think that you can do a better job of schooling your kid, stay at home at home school your kid yourself.

done

Pricetag
8/17/2007, 12:14 PM
the notion that teachers are the only salaried people in the working world that work at their jobs outside of 8-5, and that they deserve worship for doing such, sorta gets old.
What you're saying is true, but it's a natural response when you get know-nothings saying that they work 9-3 for nine months a year.

I can't believe that a thread complaining about school supply lists and prices (less than a Utah State ticket, I'm betting) has lead to so much teacher bashing. It's disgusting.

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2007, 12:24 PM
You're right Pricetag, They actually work a little less than 9 months a year.

;)

sanantoniosooner
8/17/2007, 12:31 PM
Any of you dipsticks posting in this thread probably aren't working as much as you should either.

sooner_born_1960
8/17/2007, 12:32 PM
shouldn't that be "us dipsticks"?

1stTimeCaller
8/17/2007, 12:36 PM
I have 20.37 feet before I have to send logs out again. I usually nap in between connections but I haven't today.

Mjcpr
8/17/2007, 01:48 PM
I have 20.37 feet before I have to send logs out again. I usually nap in between connections but I haven't today.
I have about 5 hours before I can; I simply refuse to use the work restroom for that. I hope I make it.

JohnnyMack
8/17/2007, 02:25 PM
I have about 5 hours before I can; I simply refuse to use the work restroom for that. I hope I make it.

I usually find one on a different floor. Poop stalking.

TexasLidig8r
8/17/2007, 02:28 PM
http://shlonkombakazay.blogspot.com/uh_bush_barney.jpg

I just spent.... $450.00 FLIPPIN' DOLLARS ON MY SON'S BOOKS FOR HIS SENIOR YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just books!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I need to sue someone!!!! :mad: :mad:

stoopified
8/17/2007, 02:28 PM
It appears teachers just look for stuff to cause kids problems yet let things like bullying and poor behavior go.. I'm glad I'm no longer in school and I feel bad for my children
Ain't that the truth?When I was married to my ex-wfe my stepson(age 8 at the time) said he was being bullied and the teachers were ignoring it.I decide to see for myself and went to the parking lot during recess.Guess what I saw? Akid 6 inches taller and at least 30 pounds heavier was shoving him around the playground.Where were the teachers?I'll tell you.they were hudled together(4 of them)talking and laughing and paying NO attention to the kids.I raised hell with the principal Ill tell you.

85Sooner
8/17/2007, 02:59 PM
http://shlonkombakazay.blogspot.com/uh_bush_barney.jpg

I just spent.... $450.00 FLIPPIN' DOLLARS ON MY SON'S BOOKS FOR HIS SENIOR YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just books!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I need to sue someone!!!! :mad: :mad:


And they were used and actually last updated 5 or 6 years ago.

When I was a Grad Assistant we got a new text book. I went through every page and word to see the differences. there were only 2 differences.
1 a picture in the previous version was b/w but in the new one is color.
2. The published date.

What a total f'in ripoff. When I was a teller at Cap fed savings bank, we handled thompson book depositorys accounts. they deposited over 100k per day of which at least half was gov and state checks. and this was in 86. Its a whole racket.

I do have a buddy with 6 kids from 6-14 yrs old. all home schooled. All very far above any of the kids their age. Just sayin.

TMcGee86
8/17/2007, 03:02 PM
I have to say that the whole "teachers dont get paid enough" just doesnt hold water with me.

My wife teaches high school, in Texas, and gets paid 45k a year. Thats getting home every day at 3pm, and never working weekends, and getting all holidays off, plus all summer and spring break.

That's pretty dang sweet if you ask me.

And she could make more if she worked in an inner-city school.

Name another job with those hours that makes close to 50k a year. I can't think of any.

MiccoMacey
8/17/2007, 03:37 PM
I have to say that the whole "teachers dont get paid enough" just doesnt hold water with me.

My wife teaches high school, in Texas, and gets paid 45k a year. Thats getting home every day at 3pm, and never working weekends, and getting all holidays off, plus all summer and spring break.

That's pretty dang sweet if you ask me.

And she could make more if she worked in an inner-city school.

Name another job with those hours that makes close to 50k a year. I can't think of any.

1) Your wife works in Texas (as did I). They make waaaaay more money than most other states.

2) If that's all your wife works, she sucks as a teacher. Or she's an elementary gym teacher.

But I'm sure she doesn't. I'm more sure she has meetings with parents, staff meetings, and other things after her last class is finished. Sometimes more than one each week (kind of tongue in cheek because they are usually more oftern).

If she teaches ANY child with any special educational needs (and she does), she has to sit in on IEP meetings. Some can be done during school hours, but many can't due to the large and ever increasing volume of special ed kids.



Just wanted to share some thoughts with those who think it's a 7:30-3 job. It is, if you want to suck at it. Like any other profession, it's what you make of it.

TMcGee86
8/17/2007, 04:56 PM
1) Your wife works in Texas (as did I). They make waaaaay more money than most other states.

Yeah, I kinda figured this was the case, and actually, she couldn't make as much in other areas of the state, and in other subjects (she's a physics teacher, science = high demand = more pay). But still, it's a pretty sweet gig.


2) If that's all your wife works, she sucks as a teacher. Or she's an elementary gym teacher.

But I'm sure she doesn't. I'm more sure she has meetings with parents, staff meetings, and other things after her last class is finished. Sometimes more than one each week (kind of tongue in cheek because they are usually more oftern).

If she teaches ANY child with any special educational needs (and she does), she has to sit in on IEP meetings. Some can be done during school hours, but many can't due to the large and ever increasing volume of special ed kids.



Just wanted to share some thoughts with those who think it's a 7:30-3 job. It is, if you want to suck at it. Like any other profession, it's what you make of it.


Well obviously she's no elem gym teacher, she taught IPC last year and will teach K level physics this year. She's a fantastic teacher.

However, yeah she has meetings every once in a while, not every week, and certainly not more than once a week routinely.

And yeah she teaches some kids with special needs, some ESL kids, and some other problem children and those situations definitely make her job more difficult.

And yeah she grades papers and does lesson plans and other such things at night.

But still, she got two months vacation without having to do any of that. Two months!

I work way more hours, take home just as much work, have just as much stress, and I dont get two months off, dont get any holidays off, and dont really make all that much more than she does. Oh and I have a brazillion dollars in higher education loans to pay off for my troubles. If I had only known how sweet a gig it is, I would have gotten my masters instead of my JD and taught HS and coached.

Now the one knock is that salaries dont go up like they do in other professions, but still, for what you do, here in Texas at least, it's a pretty fair pay grade imho.

Soonrboy
8/17/2007, 05:00 PM
Man, this teacher bashing is sort of like arm chair quarterbacking. No one can understand why it is so hard to do this or not do that...opinions about public schools are like *******s...everyone has one.

As far as the pay goes, I make alright money for what I do...it's a shame that some of my teachers who are single mothers can barely make ends meet even with a college degree.

GrapevineSooner
8/17/2007, 05:12 PM
Not to mention, there are a ton of blanket statements made about teachers.

Like any other profession, you're going to have your fair share of teachers who work their asses off and you're going to have your fair share who feel a sense of entitlement and won't work harder than they deem necessary.

TMcGee86
8/17/2007, 05:55 PM
Oh, and for the record, I in no way want my comments to come across as teacher bashing.

I am also not saying it's an easy job.

Just that, here in TX, the pay is pretty good considering the hours.

sanantoniosooner
8/17/2007, 06:35 PM
I bet the parents of physics students can be rough to deal with.

Okla-homey
8/17/2007, 07:33 PM
Yeah, with this and the posts about the retards...lot of disrespect going on for things he obviously has no clue about.

I have five public school teachers in my family. I know WTF I'm talking about. Heck, my little sister admits she became a public school teacher because she didn't want a real job.

Look, whether people want to face it or not is beside the point. Public schools in the US are broken. They won't be fixed until the teachers unions decide to back off on their demands requiring such blue-collarisms as "seniority=raise," "benefits, benefits, benefits" and absolutely "no merit pay." Frankly, that thinking is what destroyed the US automotive industry, and it's done a fine job of perpetuating mediocrity among teachers. FWIW, that kind of thinking is also what drove a stake in the heart of the vampire that was the USSR.

I'd be the first one to hail and champion a teacher who, despite the odds, managed to make sure her kids did well on their achievement tests and give that lady more bank than her colleague whose kids stayed flat. Problem is, the NEA and assorted educrat ilk would scream bloody murder. That's the part of this that steams me. America was built on the notion that folks who do a better job than the next guy are rewarded. Not so in public education.

Do any of you geniuii have any idea how difficult it is to fire a sorry credentialled school employee unless she gets busted boinking a 12 y/o?

Frankly, I know of no profession which has felt the need for collective bargaining in the first danged place. Until teachers are willing to cop to the fact public schools are still graduating kids who aren't remotely prepared to do anything but ask "you want fries with that?" the schools will stay busted. And a high school diploma will stay as meaningless as it is now in terms of enhancing a person's lifetime earning potential.

You start by admitting that some kids are born dumasses and the world needs ditchdiggers too. You cull those into "industrial arts" or WTF they call it these days, bag this "no child left behind" jazz and focus on the ones who can achieve something. You know, the model that worked in this country for a hundred flippin' years. Then, you pay the teachers who consistently turn-out competent kids righteous sums.

That said, there are some good teachers out there I'm sure, but just like the rest of us, until their product improves, they all get tarred with the same brush.

Yes, I admit it. I'm passionate about this because it affects my people and the nation I love. I'm sick to death of seeing and reading how kids in other countries can kick our kid's arses in math and science. BTW, take a stroll around any Oklahoma college campus's engineering and science departments. Check out where the kids and much of the faculty come from. It ain't Madill, Weatherford, Okmulgee or Durant baby, but it used to be.

Soonrboy
8/17/2007, 08:47 PM
Homey, I've been busting my *** off with getting the right professional development ready for my staff to help us better to serve the population of students that we have. My teachers are coming in, off contract time, to get their rooms ready, so we can spend the hours they are on contract getting ready for the kids, to learn something new about the way we teach.

I get defensive, very defensive as you can see, when someone bags all teachers together and bitches about how much time they have off and their "idiotic" professional days. I'll be the first to admit that there are schools who don't use the time out of school as wisely as they should, but don't lump my teachers and me into that same pile.

It's not that hard to get someone moved out of your building who doesn't agree with a vision that the principal has for the building. I've worked hard to get the staff I have now, and it took telling some people they were cut out for this. It takes a lot of documentation, but it's not as hard as one would think.

If you are going to "tar us with the same brush", then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. Your mind is made up to lump us all together. That's pretty damn closed minded.

sanantoniosooner
8/17/2007, 08:52 PM
What do you expect?

All lawyers are a-holes.

;)

soonerboomer93
8/17/2007, 09:11 PM
Here in Korea they attend school year round, in the upper levels (junior/senior) 6 days a week in some cases. I see kids here getting home from school at 10/11 pm nightly all the time.

TMcGee86
8/17/2007, 10:16 PM
I bet the parents of physics students can be rough to deal with.

Yeah, that's probably the worst part, at least it seems to me. She taught at Memorial our first three years here and that is probably the richest school in Houston, (she had Roger Clemens kid in one of her classes) and the parents of some of those kids were a freaking nightmare to deal with. Their kids would be total a-holes and some were so drugged out they couldn't function. And the parents would show up and be more liquored up than the kids, and be oblivious to the problem. Usually trophy step moms and Dads that were gone all the time. Absolutely no discipline in the household.

Now she's in the burbs so its not as bad, but next year will probably be worse cause she'll be teaching K-level (honors) physics. She'll be guaranteed to have a few parents that cant understand why little johnnie failed his test.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2007, 02:51 AM
why is it that teachers in the Tech Centers can get fired as quick as the rest of us working folk can but a teacher at your local high school takes forever to get fired?

It's because your local school board and the Superintendents and Principals they hire suck *** and are too scared to do their jobs.

Vaevictis
8/18/2007, 03:26 AM
BTW, take a stroll around any Oklahoma college campus's engineering and science departments. Check out where the kids and much of the faculty come from. It ain't Madill, Weatherford, Okmulgee or Durant baby, but it used to be.

Hold up. There are tons of kids from Oklahoma (including small towns) in the engineering department at OU. At the undergraduate level, they're the majority. At the master's level, they're not in the majority, but they are probably the largest group. It's at the PhD level where we lag.

And it's not because of the quality of the kids, it's because of the market. The market doesn't reward the PhD degree, and anyone qualified to get a PhD is smart enough to figure that out. After tuition, living expenses, and forfeited wages, a master's degree will pay for itself in about 6-8 years. A PhD is more like 16-22 years. And that doesn't even include the personal cost of having to delay starting your life for the years you're working on your PhD instead of earning a wage, and the attrition rate is pretty high, and most of the attrition occurs after you've already dropped years into it.

Our education system is screwy, that's for sure, but no matter how good the education system is, we're going to fall behind on science and technical PhD's so long as the market penalizes you for earning one.

Okla-homey
8/18/2007, 05:51 AM
It's not that hard to get someone moved out of your building who doesn't agree with a vision that the principal has for the building. I've worked hard to get the staff I have now, and it took telling some people they were cut out for this. It takes a lot of documentation, but it's not as hard as one would think.

Not fired, just moved to another school so she becomes some other principal's problem? Wonderful.

sanantoniosooner
8/18/2007, 08:50 AM
Not fired, just moved to another school so she becomes some other principal's problem? Wonderful.
his statement was "sharing a vision".

Moving that person to another place may well put them in a more productive situation for them and the school if they identify with the "vision" of the leadership there.

Selective interpretation is fun.

Okla-homey
8/18/2007, 09:54 AM
his statement was "sharing a vision".

Moving that person to another place may well put them in a more productive situation for them and the school if they identify with the "vision" of the leadership there.

Selective interpretation is fun.

IMHO, "sharing a vision" is modern management-speak for "gettin' with the flippin' program." IOW, a recalcitrant who refuse to abide by the rules as laid down by the Boss.

Interpret that anyway you want, but to me, that means "problem employee."

BTW, a certain major religious denomination has recently gotten in a lot of hot water because it moved employees who didn't share the "vision" of the leadership. And a lot more kids got hurt as a result.

MamaMia
8/18/2007, 10:07 AM
Before long we will have to provide the teacher with gas or a vehicle to get to schoolJust like we do for the superintendents.

Soonrboy
8/18/2007, 10:33 AM
Here in Korea they attend school year round, in the upper levels (junior/senior) 6 days a week in some cases. I see kids here getting home from school at 10/11 pm nightly all the time.


It used to be that a lot of Asian countries, and others as well, only send their brightest and best on through the high schools. The rest are moved into other areas of education.


This is why we always lose when we compare our test scores against other countries. We include EVERYONE in our schools. Other countries only include their best and brightest, because that is who they track into high schools.

If we compared our best and brightest against theirs, we'd have a lot better idea of where we stand.

Soonrboy
8/18/2007, 10:39 AM
IMHO, "sharing a vision" is modern management-speak for "gettin' with the flippin' program." IOW, a recalcitrant who refuse to abide by the rules as laid down by the Boss.

Interpret that anyway you want, but to me, that means "problem employee."

BTW, a certain major religious denomination has recently gotten in a lot of hot water because it moved employees who didn't share the "vision" of the leadership. And a lot more kids got hurt as a result.


I'm talking about teachers who aren't cut out to teach a lot of english language learners and all the aspects that come with that. Those teachers can move on to Edmond or Norman and not have to worry about it as much. They may be fine teachers without all the baggage that goes along with teaching the population my school serves. On the other hand, if I were in another school, I would hire teachers that would meet the needs of the students of that population. Not every one is cut out to work with certain populations and do a good job of teaching.

So, now teachers are being compared to catholic child molesters. NICE.

sanantoniosooner
8/18/2007, 01:22 PM
Not only do I disagree with Homey on this topic......

but I......I.......I..........yeah I disagree with him on this topic.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2007, 01:33 PM
I haven't really seen any teacher bashing in this thread.


You educators on here are a sensitive bunch. ;)

sanantoniosooner
8/18/2007, 01:38 PM
lawyers and urine boys are offensive people.

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2007, 02:02 PM
now that's just silly.

royalfan5
8/18/2007, 03:26 PM
Really it comes down to having to pay teachers enough to keep the quality ones from leaving for other opportunities. If you want quality teachers, you will have to pay, or hope you find enough quality teachers who enjoy the job for quality of life reasons, a passion for the job that overrides monetary concerns, or they don't need the money.

Okla-homey
8/18/2007, 03:38 PM
Look, I have no problem with individual people who felt the call to teach kids. That's admirable, and a tough job. What I object to are the "educrats" and assorted support leeches who have bloated the public educational infrastructure. It's those salaries and benefit packages that lead to these absurd "you gotta buy this stuff" lists which prompted this thread.

Look, don't worry, I have no political aspirations so I will never be able to change any of what is broken in public schools. My "fault" is, I spent a career in an "up or out" system which didn't pay much either, in which people were expected to perform to expectations to remain in the system, and regularly exceed the standards in order to qualify for raises. We had to be good at what we did because the nation's security depended on it.

In terms of education, the nation's future and economic viability depends on finding methods to fill kids brains with useful knowledge as efficiently as possible.

I remain convinced, the three biggest problems our public education system faces are 1) slug teachers, who I concede are not all of them, who, once hired, can remain in the system until retirement and get regular longevity raises, 2) a lack of accountability for teachers for the performance of their pupils and 3) parents who refuse to accept any responsibility for their kid's education. You add those three together, and you have a recipe for the current morass.

The solution is probably grounded in the notion of giving the working-class people a choice. E.g. put Junior in the local PS or take your tax money back and put Junior in a private school. Of course, whenever that comes up, it causes educrats to throw a clot. They then trot out the old tired chestnut that "they have to educate everyone who comes through the door" so it's not fair to hold them to private school standards.

That may be true, but the kids whose parents don't give a dang about them aren't going to amount to much anyway, so why penalize the ones whose parents DO care but can't afford to take their kid elsewhere? Not to mention the effect of inducing a bit of good old American competition to light some fires under the arses of people who have for years now safely hidden behind the shield of "it's not our fault, these kids have issues, they're poor, their family life sucks, etc."

It's plain old natural law folks; without competition, no entity -- be it a living organisim, business or even a school, has any catalyst or incentive to achieve excellence. Imagine what might be possible if entrepeneurs could build schools, market them in underperforming districts and for each child they enroll, get a draft from the state and local school district for each kid? I bet they could do it better AND cheaper than the government school. Mostly becaue they woudn't be saddled with all the regulations which ensure educrats have jobs and make maximum bank at the taxpayer's expense.

It's not rocket science. It's just common sense. I for one, think our kids are worth knocking over a few sacred cows, especially the public school monopoly.

PrideTrombone
8/18/2007, 03:46 PM
I have five public school teachers in my family. I know WTF I'm talking about. Heck, my little sister admits she became a public school teacher because she didn't want a real job.

Look, whether people want to face it or not is beside the point. Public schools in the US are broken. They won't be fixed until the teachers unions decide to back off on their demands requiring such blue-collarisms as "seniority=raise," "benefits, benefits, benefits" and absolutely "no merit pay." Frankly, that thinking is what destroyed the US automotive industry, and it's done a fine job of perpetuating mediocrity among teachers. FWIW, that kind of thinking is also what drove a stake in the heart of the vampire that was the USSR.

I'd be the first one to hail and champion a teacher who, despite the odds, managed to make sure her kids did well on their achievement tests and give that lady more bank than her colleague whose kids stayed flat. Problem is, the NEA and assorted educrat ilk would scream bloody murder. That's the part of this that steams me. America was built on the notion that folks who do a better job than the next guy are rewarded. Not so in public education.

Do any of you geniuii have any idea how difficult it is to fire a sorry credentialled school employee unless she gets busted boinking a 12 y/o?

Frankly, I know of no profession which has felt the need for collective bargaining in the first danged place. Until teachers are willing to cop to the fact public schools are still graduating kids who aren't remotely prepared to do anything but ask "you want fries with that?" the schools will stay busted. And a high school diploma will stay as meaningless as it is now in terms of enhancing a person's lifetime earning potential.

You start by admitting that some kids are born dumasses and the world needs ditchdiggers too. You cull those into "industrial arts" or WTF they call it these days, bag this "no child left behind" jazz and focus on the ones who can achieve something. You know, the model that worked in this country for a hundred flippin' years. Then, you pay the teachers who consistently turn-out competent kids righteous sums.

That said, there are some good teachers out there I'm sure, but just like the rest of us, until their product improves, they all get tarred with the same brush.

Yes, I admit it. I'm passionate about this because it affects my people and the nation I love. I'm sick to death of seeing and reading how kids in other countries can kick our kid's arses in math and science. BTW, take a stroll around any Oklahoma college campus's engineering and science departments. Check out where the kids and much of the faculty come from. It ain't Madill, Weatherford, Okmulgee or Durant baby, but it used to be.

I'm a teacher, and I completely agree with you, except that I (unlike the sister you mentioned) became a teacher because I enjoy it.

SoonerKnight
8/18/2007, 05:35 PM
181 days a year and they start at what, $30k. Not bad for an 8-3, M-F job where you get a few months off during the year.

They do get the money back eventually as they can write it off on their taxes. As for teacher pay. I went to school in Oklahoma and had a teacher that had to work as a waitress at night. My folks and I went out to dinner and ther was my teacher taken our order. Not a bad job for somone that spent well over $100,000 to get their degree! After all you get the summers off so you can work a crappy second job all year! Also I've had teachers that had to go to kinkos to make copies because the schools copier didn't work. i can really see how this is the teachers fault. A teacher in Oklahoma starts at about 23K and when I went to school I think they were at about 15K. I have fond memories of the week long statewide teacher strikes in 89. Man that was fun! Clueless parents coming in to "Sub" HA! They begging the state to give the teachers a raise and after two days we were out of school! I feel for anyone whop takes up teaching.

oumartin
8/18/2007, 05:44 PM
Well I am a complete tard and I blame it on the teachers ;)

MamaMia
8/18/2007, 06:07 PM
They do get the money back eventually as they can write it off on their taxes. As for teacher pay. I went to school in Oklahoma and had a teacher that had to work as a waitress at night. My folks and I went out to dinner and ther was my teacher taken our order. Not a bad job for somone that spent well over $100,000 to get their degree! After all you get the summers off so you can work a crappy second job all year! Also I've had teachers that had to go to kinkos to make copies because the schools copier didn't work. i can really see how this is the teachers fault. A teacher in Oklahoma starts at about 23K and when I went to school I think they were at about 15K. I have fond memories of the week long statewide teacher strikes in 89. Man that was fun! Clueless parents coming in to "Sub" HA! They begging the state to give the teachers a raise and after two days we were out of school! I feel for anyone whop takes up teaching.Actually a teacher in Oklahoma starts at $28,000. The average salary is $38,772.

oumartin
8/18/2007, 06:10 PM
38,772 is plenty! More than that your kids can' t get reduced meals and WIC

1stTimeCaller
8/18/2007, 06:11 PM
They do get the money back eventually as they can write it off on their taxes. As for teacher pay. I went to school in Oklahoma and had a teacher that had to work as a waitress at night. My folks and I went out to dinner and ther was my teacher taken our order. Not a bad job for somone that spent well over $100,000 to get their degree! After all you get the summers off so you can work a crappy second job all year! Also I've had teachers that had to go to kinkos to make copies because the schools copier didn't work. i can really see how this is the teachers fault. A teacher in Oklahoma starts at about 23K and when I went to school I think they were at about 15K. I have fond memories of the week long statewide teacher strikes in 89. Man that was fun! Clueless parents coming in to "Sub" HA! They begging the state to give the teachers a raise and after two days we were out of school! I feel for anyone whop takes up teaching.


I'm not sure what your point was. How smart is it to spend $100k to get a job that you know beforehand doesn't and won't pay a lot of money?

As has been mentioned in numerous posts in this thread, there are many rewarding parts of being a teacher i.e. seeing a kid's eyes light up when they finally get something or learn something new. I don't get that kind of satisfaction from my job.

My brother is a firefighter. He has a degree from Oral Roberts University. He had a part time job throwing trash. He would ride on the back of the truck, jump off, grab a trash can and empty it into the truck. All day long on his days off. Did he ever whine, complain, bitch or moan that he didn't make enough as a firefighter and had to ride a trash truck to make extra money? Not once. He isn't a trash man anymore as he found a better second job. I have no idea what he makes but I do know that he is happier now than when he made big bucks as a pharma. sales rep.

sanantoniosooner
8/18/2007, 09:03 PM
It's VERY common for firefighters to work other jobs because of the down time.

Usually it's self employed as a painter, carpenter, or other skill trade.

And those lazy guys lay around most of the time also;)

Newbomb Turk
8/18/2007, 09:05 PM
Well I am a complete tard

amen that.


:D

SoonerKnight
8/18/2007, 09:20 PM
I stand corrected teacher pay has gone up quite well in the last couple of years. This is interesting I guess the lottery did help! Not bad for a job with three months off!!! Still not enough money!!!

MiccoMacey
8/18/2007, 10:48 PM
I'm not sure what your point was. How smart is it to spend $100k to get a job that you know beforehand doesn't and won't pay a lot of money?

As has been mentioned in numerous posts in this thread, there are many rewarding parts of being a teacher i.e. seeing a kid's eyes light up when they finally get something or learn something new. I don't get that kind of satisfaction from my job.

My brother is a firefighter. He has a degree from Oral Roberts University. He had a part time job throwing trash. He would ride on the back of the truck, jump off, grab a trash can and empty it into the truck. All day long on his days off. Did he ever whine, complain, bitch or moan that he didn't make enough as a firefighter and had to ride a trash truck to make extra money? Not once. He isn't a trash man anymore as he found a better second job. I have no idea what he makes but I do know that he is happier now than when he made big bucks as a pharma. sales rep.

That's because you're brother is so lazy around the station he has the energy to work on his days off.

The next time I see a broom in his hand will be the first time I see a broom in his hand.

:D

Pricetag
8/19/2007, 01:54 AM
I remain convinced, the three biggest problems our public education system faces are 1) slug teachers, who I concede are not all of them, who, once hired, can remain in the system until retirement and get regular longevity raises, 2) a lack of accountability for teachers for the performance of their pupils and 3) parents who refuse to accept any responsibility for their kid's education. You add those three together, and you have a recipe for the current morass.

Regarding point one, do you believe that the so-called "slug" teachers constitute half, or even a majority of teachers? You say that "not all of them" are, which seems to imply that you do.

I've worked in a corporate environment my entire "real job" career, and I can guarantee you that despite the fact that the things that you mention in point two are supposed to be in effect there, there are tons of slackers who hang out and work their way up the ladder just by being there. Why do people love the movie Office Space so much? Because it's true. Point one is an indictment of the entire American populace these days, not just teachers.

I see point three as the biggest hurdle for public education. You're going to get out of it what you put into it, and the children whose parents are willing to get involved in their education as more than some type of enforcer when they feel their little angel has been wronged are going to succeed. The problem with point three is that there is absolutely nothing you and I can do about it beyond how we handle our own children.

Administration is also a big part of the problem. See Office Space. The biggest disappointment of watching my wife's teaching career has been the realization that at the administrative level, schools are run just the same as the companies I've worked for. The same petty crap exists there, and people move up the ladder, forget everything they were as a teacher on the front lines, and become lobotomized and ineffectual middle/upper managers. I guess I'm an idealist, but I had hoped that in such an important realm, things would be different.

SoonerKnight
8/19/2007, 02:46 AM
The teachers I had in Oklahoma were actually pretty good. Although some of them were too tired from working their second job everynight. I had teachers that really liked what they did and took and interest. I don't remember any that were "slugs" of course back then they would actually hold students responsible for what they achieved in school. If you failed you were held back and if you were a problem you were out of school. Hmmmm...makes the job easier.......

Okla-homey
8/19/2007, 06:45 AM
see my thoughts imbedded below:


Regarding point one, do you believe that the so-called "slug" teachers constitute half, or even a majority of teachers? You say that "not all of them" are, which seems to imply that you do. Nope, but even 20% creates a real problem, especially since tht means odds are that each child will be personally affected by a slug either every year, or in the case of lower grades, at least once between grades 1 and 5. Again, a little competition could remedy this


I've worked in a corporate environment my entire "real job" career, and I can guarantee you that despite the fact that the things that you mention in point two are supposed to be in effect there, there are tons of slackers who hang out and work their way up the ladder just by being there. Why do people love the movie Office Space so much? Because it's true. Point one is an indictment of the entire American populace these days, not just teachers. But, my main point is, if public education had to compete with the private sector for funding, things could get better

I see point three as the biggest hurdle for public education. You're going to get out of it what you put into it, and the children whose parents are willing to get involved in their education as more than some type of enforcer when they feel their little angel has been wronged are going to succeed. The problem with point three is that there is absolutely nothing you and I can do about it beyond how we handle our own children. There is actually something we can do if the people decide they want real options. It sure would be nice to make it economically feasible for every parent who really cares about their child's education to have an opportunity to bail-out of an underperforming government school and enroll in a non-government run school. Problem is, that's a non-starter among the NEA and their state-level counterparts. Public school teachers and union apparatchiks tend to vote hard against that notion for selfish reasons.

Administration is also a big part of the problem. See Office Space. The biggest disappointment of watching my wife's teaching career has been the realization that at the administrative level, schools are run just the same as the companies I've worked for. The same petty crap exists there, and people move up the ladder, forget everything they were as a teacher on the front lines, and become lobotomized and ineffectual middle/upper managers. I guess I'm an idealist, but I had hoped that in such an important realm, things would be different.

sanantoniosooner
8/19/2007, 08:23 AM
The biggest problem with the public school system is in the administration area. Blaming public school issues on the teachers is like blaming the price of milk on the checkout girl.

And you bring up that it should have to compete with the private sector. Then you go on to say how the administration is JUST LIKE some of the private sector you've worked for. So, is the private sector the answer or not?

Mrs. Norm
8/19/2007, 10:21 AM
just raised by one.


They get a lunch hour and a planning period during the day, if they're teaching younguns they get a break at recess and another when the kids go to PE and music also.

They get a few weeks off around Christmas, they get the summers off. If they work more that 181 days they get extra pay. 181 days*7 hours a day = 1267 hours per year worked. Most other jobs are based on working 2000 hours per year or 250 days per year, not 181 like Oklahoma teachers.

Don't I wish it were this way. Let me fill you in on some things:

1. I do not get a lunch "hour". I get 30 minutes. That is 30 TOTAL minutes. I have to go to the restroom, get my lunch, eat it, and pick up my students. This 30 minutes is the kids' lunch AND recess.

2. As far as P.E./music/other specials, that is our team planning period. Twice per week, you have to meet with your team, and your principal and plan your week. The other 3 days, you have to deal with the issues that have come up. (Calling parents, writing notes, filing, etc.) Those 30 minutes go fast!

That is it for the day! So, in the day, we get 1 hour....just like most people.

Sadly to say, most people think our day ends at 3:30. We go home, rest, do whatever. Nope! Try grading about 2-3 hours PER NIGHT! So, we might get home at 4:00. Mess with our family for awhile. Then spend time grading until about 11:00.

If my math is right, that is about 14 hours of work.....not 7.

1stTimeCaller
8/19/2007, 10:23 AM
no way do teachers work 14 hours per day.

Mjcpr
8/19/2007, 10:26 AM
You shut your whore mouth.

1stTimeCaller
8/19/2007, 10:28 AM
Norm's not gping to like the way you are talking to his bride.

;)

blueyedsooner
8/19/2007, 11:32 AM
no way do teachers work 14 hours per day.


Shadow a teacher for a day.....you may be right, it might be more than 14 some days!

1stTimeCaller
8/19/2007, 12:54 PM
You're honestly trying to tell me that you work 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, 181 days a year?

With a straight face?

There are times at my job that I'm up over 36 hours but I'm not about to tell you that I do it often. Maybe three times in the year that I have been here.

I'm not sure how 7+ 2 or 3 equals 14 to begin with but then again, I'm not a teacher. ;)

I shadowed a teacher growing up. She would get home about an hour after the bus dropped me off. She got paid extra to stay the extra hour and a half after school was out to watch the kids that were in detention. She also got her papers graded during that time and rarely took work home. Maybe time management has something to do with long days? I don't know.

sanantoniosooner
8/19/2007, 02:36 PM
You're honestly trying to tell me that you work 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, 181 days a year?

With a straight face?

There are times at my job that I'm up over 36 hours but I'm not about to tell you that I do it often. Maybe three times in the year that I have been here.

I'm not sure how 7+ 2 or 3 equals 14 to begin with but then again, I'm not a teacher. ;)

I shadowed a teacher growing up. She would get home about an hour after the bus dropped me off. She got paid extra to stay the extra hour and a half after school was out to watch the kids that were in detention. She also got her papers graded during that time and rarely took work home. Maybe time management has something to do with long days? I don't know.
Maybe when you were a young pinhead the expectations on teachers were different. ESL, state mandated testing, introduction of challenged students into the mainstream and other issues ensures that a teacher today faces many issues that older teachers didn't.

Isn't there a carpet somewhere that needs your attention?

Mrs. Norm
8/19/2007, 02:43 PM
You're honestly trying to tell me that you work 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, 181 days a year?

With a straight face?

There are times at my job that I'm up over 36 hours but I'm not about to tell you that I do it often. Maybe three times in the year that I have been here.

I'm not sure how 7+ 2 or 3 equals 14 to begin with but then again, I'm not a teacher. ;)

I shadowed a teacher growing up. She would get home about an hour after the bus dropped me off. She got paid extra to stay the extra hour and a half after school was out to watch the kids that were in detention. She also got her papers graded during that time and rarely took work home. Maybe time management has something to do with long days? I don't know.

The days where teachers sit and grade papers at a desk is gone. As a matter of fact, it is really frowned upon. To be a successful teacher, you must teach "on your feet". Be engaged with your students. Gone are the days of sitting at a desk doing pencil/paper work.

Yes, I can tell you, I work until about 11:00 p.m. during the week. I have 50 students that I teach English, Reading, and Spelling to. If I assign only ONE assignment per day, that is 50 papers. Unfortunately, I have to have one graded assignment per subject PER DAY! That is 3 subjects X 50 students. You do the math.

If teachers were paid "extra" for detention students, the state would run out of money. Gone are those days, too.

There is a reason teachers get summers off. Nobody in their right mind would do the amount of work that we do 12 months out of a year!

StoopTroup
8/19/2007, 02:45 PM
My Sister and BIL are both teachers.

They are both very special people who are devoted to not only their own children...but devoted to the children they teach.

They are Teachers in Private Schools and do not reap many of the benefits that Public School Systems provide.

I have learned to support their choices to be Teachers in Private Education as they have had it rough for quite awhile. My BIL will soon become a Principle and things have become much better for them economically.

Their faith and hard work have paid off.

I would never choose the path they did, however I will always support even the Public Teachers who are devoted to their jobs. Most of them are very special giving people.

1stTimeCaller
8/19/2007, 02:46 PM
Dude, I'm only 28. They did all of those things at Chickasha High when I was there. She left the HS for the Tech Center system three years ago and I know that the counsellors deal with the mandated testing more than the teacher does. Unless you are saying that today's teacher teaches to a state mandated test and doesn't actually teach a subject like older teachers did.

I had no idea that in the 10 years since I've been out of HS the teachers have started working 14 hour days. My mistake.

Shouldn't you be trying, to no avail, to have sex with your wife?

Okla-homey
8/19/2007, 02:55 PM
The biggest problem with the public school system is in the administration area. Blaming public school issues on the teachers is like blaming the price of milk on the checkout girl.

I generally agree, but those administrators started out as teachers? No? Do districts hire experienced business people to run them, or do they tend more to go with ex-teachers who desperately wanted out of the classroom and therefore pursued graduate degrees in educational adminstration taught by academic types who haven't had to deal with the realities of operating a public primary or secondary school in their entire lives? Hmmm?

And you bring up that it should have to compete with the private sector. Then you go on to say how the administration is JUST LIKE some of the private sector you've worked for. So, is the private sector the answer or not?
Methinks you mistook my comments for someone elses. I didn't introduce the "Office Space" analogy to this debate.


And yes, I contend competition with the private sector is most of the answer. That is precisely why the educrat powers-that-be fight so vociferously against it. They well know if it came to pass, the proverbial jig would be up, and their cushy gigs would go bye-bye.

Look, I don't hate teachers as a class, nor do I hate school administrators. I just abhor waste and the self-serving policies practiced and advanced by the educrat mafia who run public education in every state in which I've lived.

sanantoniosooner
8/19/2007, 02:56 PM
Dude, I'm only 28.

Shouldn't you be trying, to no avail, to have sex with your wife?
The expectations on teachers have changed even in the middle of my degree plan. 10 years is a different world.

I scored last night. I was in pain and pity sex still counts.

1stTimeCaller
8/19/2007, 04:42 PM
The days where teachers sit and grade papers at a desk is gone. As a matter of fact, it is really frowned upon. To be a successful teacher, you must teach "on your feet". Be engaged with your students. Gone are the days of sitting at a desk doing pencil/paper work.

Yes, I can tell you, I work until about 11:00 p.m. during the week. I have 50 students that I teach English, Reading, and Spelling to. If I assign only ONE assignment per day, that is 50 papers. Unfortunately, I have to have one graded assignment per subject PER DAY! That is 3 subjects X 50 students. You do the math.

If teachers were paid "extra" for detention students, the state would run out of money. Gone are those days, too.

There is a reason teachers get summers off. Nobody in their right mind would do the amount of work that we do 12 months out of a year!

I get the feeling that the educators on here think I'm saying that you guys are lazy. I'm not. I just don't know why it seems that a great many teachers complain about their pay. Many jobs that pay more require you to be at work many more days per year than teachers work. Many other jobs are not as emotionally rewarding as teaching is.

My hat's off to those of you that decide to become teachers.

sanantoniosooner
8/19/2007, 08:29 PM
The emotionally rewarding part is reaching a kid.

The red tape of dealing with the parents, administration, and constantly changing rules to the game have sent many teachers to the private sector or to private schools where the pay is less but the headaches are too.

Scott D
8/19/2007, 09:32 PM
Ironically the only complaining about pay in this thread has come from non-teachers whom are acting like teachers are running a shell game on them. It's been an interesting conversation to read on the part of most parties involved...except 85...only because that was the weakest conspiracy he's come up with so far.

soonerboomer93
8/19/2007, 09:37 PM
It's VERY common for firefighters to work other jobs because of the down time.

Usually it's self employed as a painter, carpenter, or other skill trade.

And those lazy guys lay around most of the time also;)

As the son of a retired firefighter, you kinda right, even though you're joking.

Actually, I think the secondary job to a certain degree is about stress relief also. I know when I was younger my father always did sprinkler work in the summer time.

Pricetag
8/19/2007, 10:10 PM
And yes, I contend competition with the private sector is most of the answer. That is precisely why the educrat powers-that-be fight so vociferously against it. They well know if it came to pass, the proverbial jig would be up, and their cushy gigs would go bye-bye.

Look, I don't hate teachers as a class, nor do I hate school administrators. I just abhor waste and the self-serving policies practiced and advanced by the educrat mafia who run public education in every state in which I've lived.
I'm curious about that term "educrat." Did you coin that one yourself? If so, what does the "-rat" suffix denote? If not, where did you hear it?

yermom
8/19/2007, 10:17 PM
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/01/04/ED16249.DTL

Pricetag
8/19/2007, 10:25 PM
I was hoping that it was for bureaucrat, but there was still some pretty politically charged language in that article that suggests otherwise.

SoonerKnight
8/20/2007, 01:48 AM
Teacher pay is WAY too low! First, they put up with kids that do not want to learn then they have parents breathing down their knecks with stupid sh*t. Second, they have to put in plenty of hours planning lessons and they have to have these reviewed by the administration. Kids don't get thrown out of school like they used to and they are a lot braver and abusive than they were 10 years ago. Heck a teacher should be armed in some schools. You never know when the freaks are going to snap! But hey if it ain't broke don't fix it! Oh, wait it is broke. Oh well!!!

olevetonahill
8/20/2007, 01:51 AM
This thread needs Locked More than some !
Just sayin

SoonerKnight
8/20/2007, 01:55 AM
Whaaaaaat?

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 07:18 AM
Ironically the only complaining about pay in this thread has come from non-teachers whom...

Ironically, some of us have lives outside of this mesaage board.

I hear it all the time from first year teachers. I just tell them they should have done their homework when choosing their degree.

If you want to make a lot of money it doesn't cost much more to get a degree in engineering or business.

That being said, if Oklahoma didn't have so many superintendents and assistant supers and actually spent some education money on educating kids, there is no reason an Oklahoma teacher couldn't make $20k more per year.

As of 2002, Norman teachers made a considerable amount more than teachers in Chickasha but the administrators in Chickasha made a lot more than the admin in Norman.

I guess my biggest beef is with the idiots on the schoolboard who are only on there because it sounds good to tell people at parties that you are on the schoolboard. And teachers do not work 14 hours per day. Still not buying that.

sanantoniosooner
8/20/2007, 07:22 AM
Norm is going to kick your skinny butt.

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 07:28 AM
Norm is going to kick your skinny butt.

whew, there for a minute I thought you were talking about me but then I read the word skinny.

:D

sanantoniosooner
8/20/2007, 07:35 AM
I needed an adjective and it was available.

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 07:41 AM
wait a minute. You were talking about me. That's not nice.

Hamhock
8/20/2007, 12:54 PM
do they still make the big box of crayons with the built-in sharpener?

i remember the good 'ole days when they said to bring "crayons". the rich kids brought the 1,000 pack with the sharpener in the back, while us poor kids rounded up some crayola nubs from our house.

Mjcpr
8/20/2007, 12:57 PM
I will trade you my Salmon for 2 Flesh's and an Aquamarine.

royalfan5
8/20/2007, 12:59 PM
Periwinkle was the best crayon of all.

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 01:03 PM
do they still make the big box of crayons with the built-in sharpener?

i remember the good 'ole days when they said to bring "crayons". the rich kids brought the 1,000 pack with the sharpener in the back, while us poor kids rounded up some crayola nubs from our house.

I think that was the 64 pack. They would open it up and it looked like an auditorium.

The only full-sized crayons I could take were the pinks and other colors my brother didn't use the years he used crayons in school, the rest wwere nubs. I don't even think ours were Crayola brand crayons.

Condescending Sooner
8/20/2007, 02:42 PM
My neighbor is a teacher. She is always complaining about how many hours she works, but she is in the yard when I leave in the morning and when I get home. I know she is home by 4 pm. Just because someone says they work extended hours doesn't make it true.

royalfan5
8/20/2007, 02:44 PM
My neighbor is a teacher. She is always complaining about how many hours she works, but she is in the yard when I leave in the morning and when I get home. I know she is home by 4 pm. Just because someone says they work extended hours doesn't make it true.
You don't think she could be working on stuff inside her house later at night? Many people do bring work home from the workplace.

Condescending Sooner
8/20/2007, 02:48 PM
I guess she could be, she could also be lying about how many hours she works. She stays outside until at least dark, so if she is doing work at home, she must really be staying up late.

royalfan5
8/20/2007, 02:52 PM
I guess she could be, she could also be lying about how many hours she works. She stays outside until at least dark, so if she is doing work at home, she must really be staying up late.
Some people do that. One of my professors last semester only worked overnights and taught online.

Condescending Sooner
8/20/2007, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I'm sure she works overnight and then is up and on her porch or in the yard by 7 a.m. Your argument reminds me of the saying, "If my Aunt had balls she would be my uncle."

85Sooner
8/20/2007, 04:10 PM
Ironically the only complaining about pay in this thread has come from non-teachers whom are acting like teachers are running a shell game on them. It's been an interesting conversation to read on the part of most parties involved...except 85...only because that was the weakest conspiracy he's come up with so far.


and what conspiricy would that be?

Scott D
8/20/2007, 05:07 PM
and what conspiricy would that be?

the gubment wants all your money man!!!

couldn't you at least blame the gubment wanting all your money on
a) katrina victims
b) illegal mexicans
c) the corrupt federal highway system
d) the SEC
e) the DEA
f) teachers

and last but not least

g) 1TC.

:D

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 05:12 PM
guys, we've moved on.

Tell us about your crayons and lunches when you were young whippersnappers.

:D

Scott D
8/20/2007, 05:18 PM
Ironically, some of us have lives outside of this mesaage board.

I hear it all the time from first year teachers. I just tell them they should have done their homework when choosing their degree.

If you want to make a lot of money it doesn't cost much more to get a degree in engineering or business.

That being said, if Oklahoma didn't have so many superintendents and assistant supers and actually spent some education money on educating kids, there is no reason an Oklahoma teacher couldn't make $20k more per year.

As of 2002, Norman teachers made a considerable amount more than teachers in Chickasha but the administrators in Chickasha made a lot more than the admin in Norman.

I guess my biggest beef is with the idiots on the schoolboard who are only on there because it sounds good to tell people at parties that you are on the schoolboard. And teachers do not work 14 hours per day. Still not buying that.

wasn't aware that my life was wrapped up in this board? Is this where post count total smack comes into play? C'mon bro, that's beneath you...I haven't made a pee joke about you in months :)

Nobody refutes that nationally or even on state levels the public education system is in an overall poor state. However, these threads always degrade into a "teachers are lazy and greedy nogoodniks" way too fast. Some teachers may during the school year work 14 hour days, some obviously may not. It's clearly going to vary from teacher to teacher, as it will vary based upon how many students a particular teacher may have during the course of a year.

I agree with you that 99.9% of the time the school board is the problem. Just the same as how local government is filled with people who only hold those positions just to inflate their twisted vision of self worth in the community. However, your argument about supers and assistant supers can be applied to most businesses, and definitely to our government. The problem is that the new american business model is that companies need to be top heavy to be successful, then again, that's why so many of them end up being bought and resold or going bankrupt and seeking government protection from themselves before doing it again.

Then again, you've got folks who want to blame the teachers for all the ills of the education system. I mean clearly if there are teacher unions then the teacher unions are the reason that teachers are so ****ty today. I wonder how much of the school supply angst even pays attention to the sheer fact that school supplies also cost a ****load more than they did when most of us went to elementary/middle/high school.

It's not fair to bag on teacher hours especially if you run into a teacher that not only teaches the usual full schedule, but also does tutoring at a place like Sylvan or on their own at home, and volunteers every year to teach summer school. In some cases that might be a teacher who works more hours per year than a 9 to 5er.


oh and 1tc, pardon me...I just spent the last 6 hours with my wife in the ER because she's had a relapse of her gastroparisis.

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 05:43 PM
I hope she gets better and stays well, bud.

I don't necessarily agree with you about the supers and a private company. Citizens can choose to shop where they want and not give that company a dime. Those of you with kids are stuck sending your kid to whatever crappy school district you live in or choosing an alternative yet still pay for the crappy school district.

I never said that teachers are lazy nor did I mean to imply that.

I stand by my belief that not one teacher in America regularly works 14 hour days and when you find one that says that they do you need to send them back to the third grade to learn addition.

I also wasn't engaging in post count smack. You said something about 'in this thread'. I was trying to say that I was talking about teachers I know in the 'real world' and wasn't just commenting on what was said in this thread.

That and Howzit said that he thinks you are cute. Whatever that means. ;)

Scott D
8/20/2007, 07:31 PM
I hope she gets better and stays well, bud.

I don't necessarily agree with you about the supers and a private company. Citizens can choose to shop where they want and not give that company a dime. Those of you with kids are stuck sending your kid to whatever crappy school district you live in or choosing an alternative yet still pay for the crappy school district.

I never said that teachers are lazy nor did I mean to imply that.

I stand by my belief that not one teacher in America regularly works 14 hour days and when you find one that says that they do you need to send them back to the third grade to learn addition.

I also wasn't engaging in post count smack. You said something about 'in this thread'. I was trying to say that I was talking about teachers I know in the 'real world' and wasn't just commenting on what was said in this thread.

That and Howzit said that he thinks you are cute. Whatever that means. ;)

Thanks, I know you didn't imply that teachers are lazy, however others in the thread did.

I don't think a teacher works 14 hour days every day either, but I can see how there are periodical times when they may have to put in that many hours. I don't think 10 hour days are out of the question on a semi-regular basis either.

The private company reference was more along the lines of how like school districts, when a company grows they tend to add all sorts of underlings known as Vice Presidents. When Thom McAn ceased being a viable entity, they had more than 15 VPs. When I last worked for Blockbuster they had 14 VPs. I always find it interesting when Company A grows enough to name Joe Gonna Blow IV The VP of Disabled Plumbing Fixtures.

As for Howzit, hell the guy doesn't even let me know when he's coming to this neck of the woods. He so hates me now, I think it's because I made fun of Dean and DC in person :(

1stTimeCaller
8/20/2007, 07:52 PM
He's probably mad that you didn't put out the first time y'all met up. :D

85Sooner
8/21/2007, 09:08 AM
the gubment wants all your money man!!!

couldn't you at least blame the gubment wanting all your money on
a) katrina victims
b) illegal mexicans
c) the corrupt federal highway system
d) the SEC
e) the DEA
f) teachers

and last but not least

g) 1TC.

:D


I don't mind paying, I just want a quality product for my money.Clearly it is agreed upon that our educational system is broken. It has been run by the guberment for 50 years but they still claim the only way to fix it is with more money. That is not a conspiricy, that is fact. Upon reading the threads I don't see alot of answers to fix it, just opinions on what teachers do/don't do. Unfortunatly they ( the teachers) are the only ones who can lobby to correct the problems. The only lobbying I have seen from them as a group is for more money. THats where they lose my support. Fix the problems then ask for my support ( ie: more money) and you will get it lickity split. unfortunately I have yet to find a quality product offered by the government other than the military. I don't consider giving my money to deadbeats a quality service for me the payer:)

frankensooner
8/21/2007, 09:36 AM
How is it broken? My kids are getting a quality education. I just don't understand. My guess would be that most of the problems lie with the parents of the kids.

1stTimeCaller
8/21/2007, 09:56 AM
Franken, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Yer kids kaint reed.

;)

frankensooner
8/21/2007, 09:59 AM
Heck my second-grader reads better than rus. ;)

Scott D
8/21/2007, 01:15 PM
I don't mind paying, I just want a quality product for my money.Clearly it is agreed upon that our educational system is broken. It has been run by the guberment for 50 years but they still claim the only way to fix it is with more money. That is not a conspiricy, that is fact. Upon reading the threads I don't see alot of answers to fix it, just opinions on what teachers do/don't do. Unfortunatly they ( the teachers) are the only ones who can lobby to correct the problems. The only lobbying I have seen from them as a group is for more money. THats where they lose my support. Fix the problems then ask for my support ( ie: more money) and you will get it lickity split. unfortunately I have yet to find a quality product offered by the government other than the military. I don't consider giving my money to deadbeats a quality service for me the payer:)

you don't look much at the contracts the military awards to make vehicles and equipment do you.

C&CDean
8/21/2007, 01:52 PM
All of my kids could read before they set foot in a schoolhouse. And I ain't got a second's problem with public schools. It's a lot closer to the real world than private/home schooling. Kids in public school either learn to deal with adversity and bull****, or they don't. You know, just like life.

And STFU and buy your kids' supplies and be happy about it. And during parent/teacher conferences shut your filthy hole and listen to the teacher when she tells you little Andrew is a ****ant. Then, when you get home, take away little Andrew's video games and his computer and put his little *** to work. And then quit blaming the schools/teachers/administrators because you are a ****ed-up parent, and your kid is a ****-up.

TIA.

Scott D
8/21/2007, 01:53 PM
All of my kids could read before they set foot in a schoolhouse. And I ain't got a second's problem with public schools. It's a lot closer to the real world than private/home schooling. Kids in public school either learn to deal with adversity and bull****, or they don't. You know, just like life.

And STFU and buy your kids' supplies and be happy about it. And during parent/teacher conferences shut your filthy hole and listen to the teacher when she tells you little Andrew is a ****ant. Then, when you get home, take away little Andrew's video games and his computer and put his little *** to work. And then quit blaming the schools/teachers/administrators because you are a ****ed-up parent, and your kid is a ****-up.

TIA.

you forgot the "Suck it biznachos" part.

sooner_born_1960
8/21/2007, 01:53 PM
Hogwarts is a private school.

C&CDean
8/21/2007, 01:55 PM
Hogwarts is a private school.

nuh uh.

PrideTrombone
8/21/2007, 09:04 PM
All of my kids could read before they set foot in a schoolhouse. And I ain't got a second's problem with public schools. It's a lot closer to the real world than private/home schooling. Kids in public school either learn to deal with adversity and bull****, or they don't. You know, just like life.

And STFU and buy your kids' supplies and be happy about it. And during parent/teacher conferences shut your filthy hole and listen to the teacher when she tells you little Andrew is a ****ant. Then, when you get home, take away little Andrew's video games and his computer and put his little *** to work. And then quit blaming the schools/teachers/administrators because you are a ****ed-up parent, and your kid is a ****-up.

TIA.

Damn, who let you in on my 4th grade parent-teacher conference? :)

Mrs. Norm
8/21/2007, 10:11 PM
All of my kids could read before they set foot in a schoolhouse. And I ain't got a second's problem with public schools. It's a lot closer to the real world than private/home schooling. Kids in public school either learn to deal with adversity and bull****, or they don't. You know, just like life.

And STFU and buy your kids' supplies and be happy about it. And during parent/teacher conferences shut your filthy hole and listen to the teacher when she tells you little Andrew is a ****ant. Then, when you get home, take away little Andrew's video games and his computer and put his little *** to work. And then quit blaming the schools/teachers/administrators because you are a ****ed-up parent, and your kid is a ****-up.

TIA.

Wow! Just....wow! You are my hero!!!!!!!!!!! (please don't tell Norm) ;)

Sooner24
8/21/2007, 10:24 PM
Heck my second-grader reads better than rus. ;)


Big deal so can my dog. :cool:

Sooner24
8/21/2007, 10:37 PM
When I was in the third grade we used to bring these to school because they were on our supply list.....

https://support.perkins.org/ASSETS/ASSETS_IMAGES/F7-Compass.jpg

You haven't lived until you get stuck with one of these. Today they are way too dangerous for kids. No wonder kids today are a bunch of wussies. :twinkies:

Come to think of it we never used them in class except to stick each other. :confused:

SoonerJack
8/22/2007, 08:17 AM
I guess my biggest beef is with the idiots on the schoolboard who are only on there because it sounds good to tell people at parties that you are on the schoolboard. And teachers do not work 14 hours per day. Still not buying that.

As a school board member of one of the finest districts in Missouri, I resent that comment. There may be a few exceptions, but most serve on school board because they have a passion for education and they want to help kids.

Clearly you have a passion for education, 1TC. You should run for school board.

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 08:31 AM
:hot:


There may be a few exceptions, but most serve on school board because they have a passion for education and they want to help kids. FWIW, "they want to help kids" is a great tagline. There have been more local tax initiatives and referenda shoved down folks throats with that line as lubricant than I care to think about. If memory serves, that's also how they greased-up the state lottery in Oklahoma. I wonder what it really means? I suspect it mostly means throwing money at a problem and ignoring the underlying systemic flaws which lead to the eventual disillusionment and departure of the best and brightest teachers and the institutionalization of mediocrity.

Clearly you have a passion for education, 1TC. You should run for school board. I'd vote for him. No foolin'

sanantoniosooner
8/22/2007, 08:32 AM
Homey waits until this thread dies down and throws gas on it.

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 08:38 AM
Homey waits until this thread dies down and throws gas on it.

Not on purpose, but I'm passionate about this subject. Our future as a people depends on it. The American ejukashinul system is rotted from within and folks need to understand that fact and get p1ssed enough to force some substantive change.

sanantoniosooner
8/22/2007, 08:43 AM
Sounds like you convinced a lot of people in the last 10 pages.

Well done.

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 09:23 AM
Sounds like you convinced a lot of people in the last 10 pages.

Well done.

Whatever.

perfect example of the internal rot:

Today, in OKC, a guy named Gary Ritter (who is an education professor at UA) is speaking at the request of House speaker Cargill about the need for merit pay for teachers in Oklahoma. You know, tying pay raises for teachers to the quality of their work. What a revolutionary concept huh? Up to a $10K annual bonus to teachers whose kids kick a$$ on their achievement tests.

True to form, OEA President Roy Bishop opposes it, preferring the traditional pay tied to longevity model -- a model which has helped get us into the pit we're in.

WTF could possibly be wrong with rewarding excellence in classroom teaching? Hellifino. Ask the educrats in charge who oppose merit pay for classroom teachers.

frankensooner
8/22/2007, 09:47 AM
Getting kids ready for standardized tests and actually teaching them are two different beasts. Merit pay from the outside looking in seems unfair to teachers in areas where the students didn't catch all the breaks in life.

Perhaps the Socratic method should be used. You would actually have to have motiviated students for that to work.

royalfan5
8/22/2007, 09:48 AM
Whatever.

perfect example of the internal rot:

Today, in OKC, a guy named Gary Ritter (who is an education professor at UA) is speaking at the request of House speaker Cargill about the need for merit pay for teachers in Oklahoma. You know, tying pay raises for teachers to the quality of their work. What a revolutionary concept huh? Up to a $10K annual bonus to teachers whose kids kick a$$ on their achievement tests.

True to form, OEA President Roy Bishop opposes it, preferring the traditional pay tied to longevity model -- a model which has helped get us into the pit we're in.

WTF could possibly be wrong with rewarding excellence in classroom teaching? Hellifino. Ask the educrats in charge who oppose merit pay for classroom teachers.
It depends on how you define performance for pay. If all you are rewarding is the ability to get kids to take multiple choice exams well, I don't think you would be rewarding excellence at all.

Viking Kitten
8/22/2007, 10:26 AM
In all fairness, Gary Ritter said at the study meeting yesterday that merit pay has never been absolutely proven to improve education, although he thinks it's worth trying on a limited basis. It has worked in some areas, and not it others. The next study meeting is Sept. 11, that's when teachers are expected to weigh in.

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 11:05 AM
Getting kids ready for standardized tests and actually teaching them are two different beasts. Merit pay from the outside looking in seems unfair to teachers in areas where the students didn't catch all the breaks in life.


What's unfair is those kids don't get educated. They get waved around as an excuse to throw more money at the problem amid hang-wringing and "woe is us" from the people whose responsibility it is to teach them. Exhibit A: DC Public School System. Highest per capita expenditure in the nation, yet the kids there aren't learning spit.

So go ahead and tweak it for teachers in poor* areas. To qualify, they would have to demonstrate improvement from a baseline sample taken at the start of the year among their pupils.

I don't get how this couldn't be a powerful motivator for the lazy teachers to kick it up a notch and to reward the ones who already have. We gotta do something that looks promising folks. The old model is busted, and it is not about throwing more money at it. The money must be targeted for the front-line classroom teachers making it happen. Not the administrators, principals, and related credentialled support staff strap-hangers.

* for our purposes, defined as schools with greater then 40% free or reduced lunch kids.

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 11:10 AM
The next study meeting is Sept. 11, that's when teachers are expected to weigh in. And the ones the OEA will pack the room with, I predict, will dutifully cowtow to their union masters and foresquare oppose such an evile and devisive scheme that purports to set certain teachers up on a pedestal while leaving others, many of whom have been in the trenches for 20 years (perhaps asleep), in the proverbial dust.

Scott D
8/22/2007, 01:54 PM
Actually homey you are barking up the wrong tree. It can be proven that there would be more merit in us using a schooling schedule similar to a country like Japan. As a matter of fact, there are some school districts in this country who have either implimented it as a test run, or are using it exclusively.

Ironically it's parents who have been more against the year round schooling model than students/teachers. Despite that model showing higher test scores, and the kids not only learning more, but retaining more.

Soonrboy
8/22/2007, 01:58 PM
Merit systems will reward those who teach at higher income schools and may be some of the laziest people in the whole damn profession. I will put forth that it is much easier to teach at a school where the parents live in $200,000 houses than it ease to teach in a school where there are 8 people living in 1000 square foot house. Those kids from higher income families will make progress no matter who is leading the classroom, or not leading the classroom.

My school is 90% free and reduced lunch. I'm not whining, I love it here. My teachers work their asses off...but if you put my school up against an edmond or norman school, they'll kick us in the *** on test scores. HOWEVER, we make great progress every year with our population.

If you base merit pay purely on student achievement, it will leave "my" teachers out...If you base it on progress made over last year, then that seems much more fair.


Plus, just because you have been teaching 20 years doesn't mean its time for you to move on.

You generalize too much

Scott D
8/22/2007, 02:01 PM
Plus, just because you have been teaching 20 years doesn't mean its time for you to move on.

You generalize too much

shhh, bitter old birds about being put out to pasture after 20 years ;)

Okla-homey
8/22/2007, 08:24 PM
yes, I'm still :hot: about this.


Merit systems will reward those who teach at higher income schools and may be some of the laziest people in the whole damn profession. I will put forth that it is much easier to teach at a school where the parents live in $200,000 houses than it ease to teach in a school where there are 8 people living in 1000 square foot house. Those kids from higher income families will make progress no matter who is leading the classroom, or not leading the classroom.

My school is 90% free and reduced lunch. I'm not whining, I love it here. My teachers work their asses off...but if you put my school up against an edmond or norman school, they'll kick us in the *** on test scores. HOWEVER, we make great progress every year with our population.

If you base it on progress made over last year, then that seems much more fair. That's all I'm asking. Is that so wrong?

Plus, just because you have been teaching 20 years doesn't mean its time for you to move on. I agree, but its that end of the longevity scale making the most now. IOW, if you have managed not to get fired for 20 years, you make more than a fireball who is doing great things in her classroom but has only been in the game for a couple years. I'd prefer paying a second year teacher more than a 20 year vet if that second year teacher's results were better.

You generalize too much. Are you actually asserting that public education is doing a good job by the taxpayer and the American child? If you are, you sir, need a time-out to look around. Wakey-wakey, eggs and bakey! Beleive me, I'm not some lone nut-job making these assertions. That is precisely where NCLB came from. If you guys won't accept responsibility and fix it yourselves, you need to just bend over and accept the fact the legislatures and the Congress are going to try to do it for you. And guess what, they are going to use a sledgehammer to resculpt stuff for which a sculptors chisel and a steady hand would be a better choice of tool. That's what they do when folks in positions of authority in regulated areas refuse to negotiate.

Preservation Parcels
8/22/2007, 09:30 PM
A guy at work today mentioned in passing that his wife is earning a six figure salary. I asked what she did. "She's the head of the lunch program for the school district."

I know four star chefs who aren't earning that much, and the food sure wasn't very good when I was in school.

Sooner24
8/22/2007, 09:36 PM
A guy at work today mentioned in passing that his wife is earning a six figure salary. I asked what she did. "She's the head of the lunch program for the school district."

I know four star chefs who aren't earning that much, and the food sure wasn't very good when I was in school.


Is he sure the decimal point is in the right place? If my wife was making a six figure salary I would retire. :D

Soonrboy
8/22/2007, 10:09 PM
yes, I'm still :hot: about this.


What I am trying to say to you is that there are good things going on in the schools...Not all of them are bad, and not all the teachers are bad. Don't lump us all together. I agree, we need to fix the ones that are broken, but believe me, it's not just the poor schools that need to be fixed! If you are an advocate of NCLB, then you don't realize what that legislation is doing to the kids and good teaching.

I hate being lumped in and I will defend my job and the job my school does to the bitter end. I've accepted the challenge to change my little part of the world, as has everyone I work with on a daily basis. I'm not going to let their efforts be negated by someone who points and says "fix it". If you feel so strongly about it, get your *** in the trenches and help out.

Preservation Parcels
8/22/2007, 11:48 PM
Is he sure the decimal point is in the right place? If my wife was making a six figure salary I would retire. :D

He was complaining that it was hard to make ends meet because he was only earning $52K on top of her salary. They still have a daughter in college. :rolleyes: We have two sons in college and one in Christian private high school, so it was a little difficult to be sympathetic to his plight.

The public schools are pretty awful here. When our eldest son took some AP classes there, he spent equal amounts of time in class and on the football field. That was where the students went while the bomb-sniffing dogs checked out the school after the nearly daily bomb threats. He made it through high school and college just fine, but the time he spent being homeschooled and in private school were a far higher caliber of education.

Part of an education is learning how to play the game. Part of it is earning the piece of paper. In our experience, too often in public schools, a love of learning was an afterthought.

Homey's Good Mornings are a feast for my love of learning. Thank you!

Okla-homey
8/23/2007, 05:52 AM
:hot:


What I am trying to say to you is that there are good things going on in the schools...Not all of them are bad, and not all the teachers are bad. Don't lump us all together.
I'm sure you are correct there are some good things happening. I do get incensed when the media, and everyone else these days, states categorically that the Iraq war is a disaster when I am quite certain there are positve things happening there everyday. But still...it ain't a walk in the park either and ongoing, positive change is needed. The difference between the mess in Iraq and the mess in our schools is the fact things finally seem like they're moving in the right direction in the war

I agree, we need to fix the ones that are broken, but believe me, it's not just the poor schools that need to be fixed! If you are an advocate of NCLB, then you don't realize what that legislation is doing to the kids and good teaching.
My point about NCLB is you folks almost universally lament NCLB, yet the reason it was foisted on you by Congress and the White House is because you refused to adopt any school accountability measures yourselves. Therefore, in true gubmint fashion, they made some up for you and slapped them on you. It would have been better if you guys regulated yourselves, but since you refused to do so, politicians stepped in to do it for you. That's what they do. I expect the merit pay dealio will eventually work the same way and you folks won't have a say in the drafting because the unions which are the public mouthpiece of your chosen vocation state 1) merit pay bad, pay tied to longevity good 2)not fair to hold individual teachers responsible for illiterate 11th graders, etc. 3) it's not our fault, 4) we work hard, but well, you kow, it's the ghetto, and stuff, 5) we'd rather make kids feel good about themselves than be completely focused on imparting some basic skills which will avail all our pupils at least a chance to escape poverty, etc., etc., blah, blah,...did I mention, "its not our fault?"

I hate being lumped in and I will defend my job and the job my school does to the bitter end. I've accepted the challenge to change my little part of the world, as has everyone I work with on a daily basis. I'm not going to let their efforts be negated by someone who points and says "fix it". If you feel so strongly about it, get your *** in the trenches and help out. Why should I have to take a teaching job to become an agent of positive change when there are already millions of you folks in the game who you state are committed to improving the situation? Look, I realize the cards are stacked against the public school classroom teacher. That's why we need top to down systemic changes. That can only occur by a either 1) a change in attitude from the national and state educational power brokers (your unions) or 2) through government action to adjust your priorities. I'm betting its going to be the latter because the teachers unions haven't supported anything to advance school and individual teacher accountability in my lifetime. To them, just like any other trade union, its all about teacher and staff job security, more benefits and pay raises wrapped in the mantra that higher pay for teachers is necessarily "good for the children." That, my friend, is utter nonsense given the state of our public schools.

Condescending Sooner
8/23/2007, 09:09 AM
Actually homey you are barking up the wrong tree. It can be proven that there would be more merit in us using a schooling schedule similar to a country like Japan. As a matter of fact, there are some school districts in this country who have either implimented it as a test run, or are using it exclusively.

Ironically it's parents who have been more against the year round schooling model than students/teachers. Despite that model showing higher test scores, and the kids not only learning more, but retaining more.

Actually, there was an article the other day on MSN that said students in year round schools do not learn better than schools with summers off.

Try again.

C&CDean
8/23/2007, 09:10 AM
The evil that plagues schools is the same evil that plagues America.

Unions.

That being said, quit yer bitchin' and buy your kids' supplies.

Hamhock
8/23/2007, 09:21 AM
The evil that plagues schools is the same evil that plagues America.

worthless POS parents who think their responsibility to the child ended when the parent uncurled their toes 9 months before they were born, assume that someone else will fulfill their responsibility for raising said child, and are willing to bitch incessantly when (fill in the blank) doesn't meet their expectations for how their child should be treated.

That being said, quit yer bitchin' and buy your kids' supplies.

fixed

C&CDean
8/23/2007, 09:29 AM
fixed

Yeah, especially when the POS parents belong to POS unions.

Unions are for people who think that getting a job = a license to **** off. I blame unions for everything we use coming from China. I blame unions for the apathetic, worthless nature of the average American worker. I blame unions for raping and pillaging stupid people who pay dues to them.

I hate me a union.

royalfan5
8/23/2007, 09:35 AM
Actually, there was an article the other day on MSN that said students in year round schools do not learn better than schools with summers off.

Try again.
Because if something was on MSN it's the God's Honest truth:rolleyes:

Hamhock
8/23/2007, 09:50 AM
we just started going 3 weeks on and 1 week off, year around. from our experience it works better for teacher and children. it helps keep everyone focused throughout the year, it keeps the kids from getting bored in the summer, and allows us to take vacations throughout the year.

Pricetag
8/23/2007, 12:25 PM
I agree, but its that end of the longevity scale making the most now. IOW, if you have managed not to get fired for 20 years, you make more than a fireball who is doing great things in her classroom but has only been in the game for a couple years. I'd prefer paying a second year teacher more than a 20 year vet if that second year teacher's results were better.
Where in the American workplace does it work like this? Outside of maybe professional sports, I can't think of anything.

Condescending Sooner
8/23/2007, 12:40 PM
Because if something was on MSN it's the God's Honest truth:rolleyes:

I'm sure the study they referenced was more reliable that Scott's opinion. They didn't do the study. I thought it was Fox that always posted lies.

royalfan5
8/23/2007, 12:43 PM
I'm sure the study they referenced was more reliable that Scott's opinion. They didn't do the study. I thought it was Fox that always posted lies.
Scott's a pretty sharp guy. I'm betting he has seen some pretty reliable studies too.

MiccoMacey
8/23/2007, 12:47 PM
Yeah, especially when the POS parents belong to POS unions.

Unions are for people who think that getting a job = a license to **** off. I blame unions for everything we use coming from China. I blame unions for the apathetic, worthless nature of the average American worker. I blame unions for raping and pillaging stupid people who pay dues to them.

I hate me a union.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Pretty much.

In the normal world, I agree Unions suck. If I want to own a business, I'll run it how I want and pay people what I want (under already established federal rules and guidelines).

If you want to work for me under the conditions I set forth, great. If you don't, go find work somewhere else.

However, as a firefighter, my "boss" is the US of A. He's the corporate owner so to speak.

And I don't think the government should ever have any more control over people's lives than is absolutely necessary. So I joined my union to keep the government from having more power.

Mjcpr
8/23/2007, 01:00 PM
And I don't think the government should ever have any more control over people's lives than is absolutely necessary. So I joined my union to keep the government from having more power.

And so they can collectively negotiate a fat raise for you every year. :D

C&CDean
8/23/2007, 01:41 PM
And so they can collectively negotiate a fat raise for you every year. :D

Ahhh, that's where you're wrong. Again.

When I was a union steward we negotiated hard for regular raises based on time in service, seniority, etc. Management wanted us to switch to a merit-based system. Of course the union would hear none of that. So, over the past 30 or so years the union guys have gotten their .5% or sometimes 1% raise per annum. Didn't/doesn't matter if you don't do ****, you get your little raise.

20 years ago I went over the fence into management. About that time management decided to go to a merit-based system. Long story short? I've never gotten less than a 3.5% raise each year and average about 5.5%. A couple of years I got 9%.

I currently make over double what I would have made if I'd have stayed with the "brothers" in the union. All the guys I used to work with are broken down, bitter, resentful, hateful old men who drive pickups with union stickers in the window and wear union t-shirts and hate everybody - especially themselves.

Micco,

Don't buy that union jazz. The government will do whatever the hell they please. They need firefighters. Your job/pension/bennies ain't going anywhere - unless the union "negotiates" you out of a job.

MiccoMacey
8/23/2007, 02:51 PM
Not here in Tulsa.

For our negotiations for the 2006-2007 year (starting in July 2006), we got a 7.5 percent raise that didn't start until January '07. So in January of 2007, after six months of absolutely no raise, we get a 7.5% raise. But we don't get another raise until we re-negotiate for a new contract July 2008.

Not bad, considering we still get our annual step raise of 4% on your anniversary employment date.

We're still under the national average for a city of our size, department, etc...

But no way would I ever complain about doing this job, even if they took money away. It is just about the premier job in the world, maybe just one notch below whomever gets to wash Kate Beckinsale's underwear.

C&CDean
8/23/2007, 02:53 PM
Since I've never heard of Kate Beckinsale, I'll have to take your word for it.

MiccoMacey
8/23/2007, 05:21 PM
Pearl harbor with Ben Affleck.

Hotness on a cracker.

Mjcpr
8/23/2007, 05:54 PM
All the guys I used to work with are broken down, bitter, resentful, hateful old men who drive pickups and hate everybody

Well, ****......let me just say thank you on behalf of the SO that you turned out nothing like that, Deaner!

:D

StoopTroup
8/23/2007, 06:02 PM
Micco,

Don't buy that union jazz. The government will do whatever the hell they please. They need firefighters. Your job/pension/bennies ain't going anywhere - unless the union "negotiates" you out of a job.
That's the fact Jack.

Okla-homey
8/24/2007, 05:28 AM
Micco,

Don't buy that union jazz. The government will do whatever the hell they please. They need firefighters. Your job/pension/bennies ain't going anywhere - unless the union "negotiates" you out of a job.

Just like they did a for an awful lot of UAW members. The reason no foreign carmaker has ever built a plant in Michigan is precisely because of the UAW's reach. That, and the fact GM pays more in benefits to vested UAW members than it does for steel to build cars.

I'm not saying its likely (at least for now,) but there really is nothing to stop a municipality from "outsourcing" its fire protection services to a contractor. Heck, many have already outsourced their jails/detention centers. Ditto the streets department. It would be tough to outsource the po-po, but not fire.