Has NASA’s incompetence doomed another crew?

[KABOOKIE]

Yet another foam break off during launch which gouged a fairly large hole in the bottom of Endeavour's wing. The first mission after the Columbia disaster was to prove that the space shuttle could be launched without any foam breaking off the ship. The result from that flight showed that foam break off was inevitable. At that point, the space shuttle fleet should have been grounded and further space flight canceled (or at the very least crew limited flights) until a new design was made.

I’d say Endeavour's crew has a 50/50 chance on breaking up over the Gulf Coast.

[VeeJay]

Well, there is a teacher on board.

:(

[GottaHavePride]

Sadly, this is what happens when you attempt the spacecraft equivalent of drag-racing a 1981 Buick.

[Ike]

Sine these foam breakoffs keep affecting the wings, why not make the wings retractable? They aren't really needed for the launch portion of the trip.

Still though, It seems to me that this is a solvable problem. But NASA hasn't changed anything other than the fact that now they check for damage once they get up in space. If they have concluded that it is inevitable that foam breakoffs will happen and that there is some likelihood that foam breakoffs will damage the shuttle, why not, idunno, add some kind of protection against foam breakoffs? Maybe you could mount the shuttle higher up on the fuel tank. Something.


My other question though is that if they are inevitable, how the hell were we able to run the shuttle fleet for 20 some odd years without a catastrophic failure of this particular nature?

[sooner_born_1960]

It's inferior foam they are making nowadays. I used to be able to pick up a foam ice chest at safeway, and it would last all summer. Now they break apart over one weekend.

[sooner_born_1960]

And i hope and pray they can repair the damage before their return.

[Widescreen]

GHP is exactly right. The fleet should be mothballed. Our astronauts are flying on 1960's and 1970's technology and it seems the shuttles are held together with bailing wire and duct tape (not to impugn the effectiveness of either one of those fasteners). It's long past time for smaller ships with new technology.

[KABOOKIE]

Sine these foam breakoffs keep affecting the wings, why not make the wings retractable? They aren't really needed for the launch portion of the trip.


The wings are needed for the launch portion. It may look like the shuttle is just going straight up but, the control surfaces are used to maneuver the aircraft in roll and pitch as they ascend through the atmosphere. Even if you could do without them, retractable wings wouldn’t prevent an occasional foam break off from damaging the underbelly of the fuselage. Heat damage to the fuselage during reentry would be just as catastrophic. The only way to prevent this type of damage like you said would be to design a vehicle that is on top of the rocket. (See Saturn V Rocket)

[IronSooner]

Aren't they planning on going back to capsules in the somewhat near future now?

[OklahomaTuba]

Nasa has outlived its usefulness, at least the shuttle program part of it.

Give the Billions or so they spend to add another 2 ft to the space station to private American companies and see what they can do.

[colleyvillesooner]

The foam came off a bracket on the external fuel tank 58 seconds after Wednesday's launch. It fell down onto a strut on the tank, then bounced up, right into Endeavour's belly. Ice apparently formed before liftoff near the bracket, which helps hold the long fuel feed line to the tank, and caused the foam to pop off when subjected to the vibrations of launch.

It's possible some ice was attached to the foam, which would have made the impact even harder. The debris that came off is believed to have been grapefruit-sized.

These brackets have lost foam in previous launches, a concern for NASA, Shannon said. A switch to titanium brackets, eliminating foam, will not occur before next year.

Couldn't get that done before the next launch huh?

[Ike]

Couldn't get that done before the next launch huh?
That would take away from their budget for "Moon-Mars!"
:rolleyes:

[Okla-homey]

"styrofoam" and "space craft" should not be used in the same sentence.

That's the problem. That, and built by the low bidder.

[KABOOKIE]

"styrofoam" and "space craft" should not be used in the same sentence.

That's the problem. That, and built by the low bidder.


How many hours do you have flying around on stuff built by the lowest bidder? ;)

[Harry Beanbag]

My other question though is that if they are inevitable, how the hell were we able to run the shuttle fleet for 20 some odd years without a catastrophic failure of this particular nature?


http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/images/icons/bush.gif

[Okla-homey]

How many hours do you have flying around on stuff built by the lowest bidder? ;)

Too many. Of course, we never departed the flippin' Earth's atmosphere atop a ginormous can of an explosive mixture of liquid oxygen and solid rocket propellant intentionally lit on one end.

[C&CDean]

Meh. If you're stupid enough to climb on top of one of those ****ing things then I ain't got a lot of sympathy for you. Hell man, it's space travel. It's supposed to be dangerous.

[achiro]

"styrofoam" and "space craft" should not be used in the same sentence.

That's the problem. That, and built by the low bidder.
Hell they've stepped up, that thing they landed on the moon with was made of coat hangers and aluminum foil!

http://www.variedperspectives.com/Places/airnspace/pictures/lunarlander.jpg

[HskrGrl]

So.... what is NASA doing anyway? I mean we already landed on the moon and we didn't see any green people on Mars. Why are we spending so much money to keep going back out there? What are they trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to be facetious. It's an honest question. Right now I am in the camp of people who ask "What else could we be spending this money on that is more important yadda yadda"

[Viking Kitten]

So.... what is NASA doing anyway? I mean we already landed on the moon and we didn't see any green people on Mars. Why are we spending so much money to keep going back out there? What are they trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to be facetious. It's an honest question. Right now I am in the camp of people who ask "What else could we be spending this money on that is more important yadda yadda"

The reason we should keep exploring space is that it advances us as a civilization. The science and technology gleaned from space exploration has practical application to other areas, like medicine for example. For instance, there is life-saving imaging in use today (diagnoses early-stage breast cancer) that was originally developed to help see images from the Hubble Space telescope before the optical problem was corrected.

Plus we can't forget other scientific advances stemming from the space program, like Velcro and Tang. :D

[HskrGrl]

Well Velcro and Tang is all I needed to hear! :)

[KABOOKIE]

Plus we can't forget other scientific advances stemming from the space program, like Velcro and Tang. :D

Mmmmm. Tang.

And Velcro Tang sounds like somebody 1TC dated. :D

[soonerboomer93]

naw, he just tipped her some ones

[Okla-homey]

Well Velcro and Tang is all I needed to hear! :)

Don't forget cordless rechargeable power tools and adult diapers.

[SoonerBOI]

Prayers are sent. What in the world are they doing there? Putting another spy sat?:D

[soonerboomer93]

yeah, i love my adult diapers

nothing like spending all day at the desk and not having anyone bother me

[rebmus]

Don't forget cordless rechargeable power tools and adult diapers.
and pens that write upside down.

we ignant necks in MS would have just used a pencil though...

[Ruuuuuufus]

Unfortunately because of EPA regulations the foam is not as good as it used to be. You'd think they could make exemptions for the four or so shuttle launches a year but who knows.

Less than 1 percent of our nation's budget is spent on the space program. If they had a little more $ maybe they wouldn't be awarding contracts to the lowest bidders (see Lockheed-Martin CEV contract.)

The space program has led to a much greater economic benefit for the country than most people know. More money is gained from advances than the money put into it.

[HskrGrl]

Don't forget cordless rechargeable power tools

These I LOVE!!!! Not only do we have them, but we also have the weed wacker/trimmer and leaf blower/sucker. :)

But really these are things that probably would have been invented eventually anyway since there is a need for them (with the exception of Tang). And really we aren't paying billions of dollars for them to invent new things. What are they doing out in space right now. Are they setting up the satellites so I can get cell phone coverage and DirecTV? Are they finding new information about other planets and solar systems that is pertinent to our way of life here on Earth? Don't get me wrong. The resulting inventions are wonderful, but that's not what we are paying them to do.

Maybe I'll stop being lazy and go research it for myself. :O

[VeeJay]

Didn't Endeavour take a leaf blower up in an '88 mission?

[VeeJay]

It's inferior foam they are making nowadays. I used to be able to pick up a foam ice chest at safeway, and it would last all summer. Now they break apart over one weekend.

Nominate for Post Of The Week

[soonerboomer93]

These I LOVE!!!! Not only do we have them, but we also have the weed wacker/trimmer and leaf blower/sucker. :)

But really these are things that probably would have been invented eventually anyway since there is a need for them (with the exception of Tang). And really we aren't paying billions of dollars for them to invent new things. What are they doing out in space right now. Are they setting up the satellites so I can get cell phone coverage and DirecTV? Are they finding new information about other planets and solar systems that is pertinent to our way of life here on Earth? Don't get me wrong. The resulting inventions are wonderful, but that's not what we are paying them to do.

Maybe I'll stop being lazy and go research it for myself. :O

Most satellites are launched by rocket, especially non military ones. I know when I was at Dish Network, that we used sea launch for our satellites.

[Phil]

Hell they've stepped up, that thing they landed on the moon with was made of coat hangers and aluminum foil!

http://www.variedperspectives.com/Places/airnspace/pictures/lunarlander.jpg

That's no lie, either. The guys working on the interior of the LMs at the Grumman plant on Long Island had to be very careful - a dropped screwdriver could puncture the pressure hull.

[HskrGrl]

Most satellites are launched by rocket, especially non military ones. I know when I was at Dish Network, that we used sea launch for our satellites.

I knew that some/most were. I didn't want to assume that all satellites were launched that way, though. ;)

[Jerk]

http://www.theregister.com/2007/08/13/shuttle_replacement_deal_inked/

NASA inks deal for Shuttle replacements
Timing nothing to do with Endeavour dent

By Lewis Page
Published Monday 13th August 2007 16:33 GMT


NASA has signed a $1.8 billion contract with Utah-based Alliant Techsystems (ATK) for "design, development, testing, and evaluation of the first stage of the Ares I and Ares V launch vehicles." Ares I and V will replace the Space Shuttle fleet as NASA's primary means of getting people and stuff into earth orbit.

The deal, announced on Friday, includes delivery of five ground static test motors, two ground vibration test articles and four flight test stages. NASA doesn't get any boosters to use under this deal: the operational rockets will be subject to a seperate contract.

ATK was seen by NASA as the only company which could develop of the first stage of the Ares I crew launch vehicle. Ares I will use solid-fuel rockets to launch humans into orbit, and the current space shuttle strap-on booster is the only solid rocket made in America rated for firing people rather than just kit.

The first stage of the Ares I astronaut-carrying launcher will be a five-segment solid rocket booster based on the four-segment design used for the shuttle. The second stage will be a J-2X liquid-oxygen, liquid-hydrogen engine with a new upper stage fuel tank. The Orion crew exploration vehicle will ride to low Earth orbit with as many as six astronauts atop this stack.

The planned Ares V bulk lifter will deliver machinery and spaceships into orbit, including the vessels which will take people back to the Moon and on to Mars under current plans. Ares V's mighty first stage will mount five RS-68 liquid-oxygen, liquid-hydrogen engines mounted below a larger version of the shuttle's external tank, with two five-segment, solid-propellant rocket boosters strapped on for extra poke. The upper stage will use the same J-2X engine as the Ares I.

NASA says a return to throwaway rocket stacks will be more reliable, affordable and flexible than the Shuttles, whose orbiter spaceplane segment is re-usable but expensive to maintain and often plagued by technical and safety problems. Others have characterised the move as a retrograde step for launch technology, saying that NASA should move forward with some blue-sky, truly reusable scheme such as rocket/scramjet spaceplanes.

-----------

The deal about the foam is no joke, from what I hear. It's the new enviro friendly stuff, not the sh*t that last 2000 years and won't degrade.

[GottaHavePride]

Man, if NASA actually went for a self-contained re-usable launch vehicle, the advances in engine technology they'd have to invent would lead to the awesomest thing ever:

X-wing fighters.

[soonerboomer93]

oooooh

and that could give us some tie fighters too

[bluedogok]

Pretty much the space program is responsible in large part for these things that we are typing on.

[StoopTroup]

I get so tired of people saying NASA uses duct tape and bailing wire...

Anybody that knows anything about aviation knows just how irresponsible that kind of statement is...

They use Mylar Tape and Safety Wire.

Get your info straight.

[OklahomaTuba]

Pretty much the space program is responsible in large part for these things that we are typing on.

Surely you jest!

Paul "Bear" Bryant invented the modern computer for petes sake. Don't you read them learnin books???

[Jimminy Crimson]

What about freeze dried ice cream? Can't forget that! :)

[Ike]

Don't forget about GPS either. Thank your lucky stars that due to modern technology, you now have every reason to ignore the wimmens when they tell you you should stop and ask for directions.

[Okla-homey]

Didn't Endeavour take a leaf blower up in an '88 mission?

Silly wabbit, there is no MASA, it's NASA.

and besides, space is a vacuum. Therefore, fan-based blowing &/or sucking things don't work.;)

[AlbqSooner]

Silly wabbit, there is no MASA, it's NASA.

and besides, space is a vacuum. Therefore, fan-based blowing &/or sucking things don't work.;)
Silly Law Student - Masa is what I use to get the appropriate flavor/texture in my green chile stew.:D

[Ike]

Some pictures of the damage. (shamelessly lifted from here (http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?p=662))

http://www.blogsforcompanies.com/TTimages/neptec_endeavour_tile_1.jpg
http://www.blogsforcompanies.com/TTimages/neptec_endeavour_tile_3.jpg
http://www.blogsforcompanies.com/TTimages/neptec_endeavour_tile_4.jpg

[OU4LIFE]

Silly wabbit, there is no MASA, it's NASA.

and besides, space is a vacuum. Therefore, fan-based blowing &/or sucking things don't work.;)

well, that's what the government wants you to think....

[OKLA21FAN]

Pretty much the space program is responsible in large part for these things that we are typing on.
i heard it was because of the Roswell crash and is stored in somewhere in area 51 :pop:

[OUDoc]

Pretty much the space program is responsible in large part for these things that we are typing on.
My desk?

[KABOOKIE]

My desk?

You got one of those fancy laser keyboards?

[dolemitesooner]

yeah, i love my adult diapers

nothing like spending all day at the desk and not having anyone bother me
yEAH THATS THE ****...litteraly

[Ike]

So NASA is opting not to do anything about it, but they claim that had it been a serious gouge in the tile, they could fix it.


I for one, don't understand why they don't just fix it anyway? What do they have to lose from that?

[OU4LIFE]

dude, have you seen the cost of Outer Space Tile Patch?

I blame the petroleum industry.

[Pricetag]

I know these astronauts are stout types, but it would straight up suck beginning the deorbit process knowing that you had a hole in your heat shield.

[Ike]

Alls I'm saying is, if this turns into a thing on re-entry and we get a repeat of columbia, all of Nasa should be fired.

[StoopTroup]

Alls I'm saying is, if this turns into a thing on re-entry and we get a repeat of columbia, all of Nasa should be fired.
Agreed.

I keep wondering if they can't fix it and they just aren't telling the crew they might be screwed.

[KABOOKIE]

I for one, don't understand why they don't just fix it anyway? What do they have to lose from that?

I think their reasoning was they might actually damage the heat shield more by attempting a repair.

[Petro-Sooner]

dude, have you seen the cost of Outer Space Tile Patch?

I blame the petroleum industry.

:mad:








:texan:

[sooner_born_1960]

I guess not. Welcome back.

[KABOOKIE]

Whew! Dodged another bullet! Welcome home!

[Paperclip]

Glad they're back safe.