Whadyathink?

[Okla-homey]

We haven't had a pole in a while. This one is a public trial of Michael Vick. Although we don't know all the facts, let's review what has been reported in the media:

55 pit bulls found on the residential property. A "rape chair" used to breed aggressive females when in season. "Break sticks" used to unclamp the jaws of dogs. A covered area suitable for dog-fighting complete with bleachers and a pit. Merchandise emblazoned with the words "Bad Newz Kennelz".

so, let's try Vick and decide his professional football fate.

P.S. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Vick himself was raised by dog-fight loving thugs in Newport News, VA.

[sanantoniosooner]

guilty.

banned forever.

next?

[OU4LIFE]

come on SAS, it was only 55 pit bulls.

I could see it if it was 60....

[OUDoc]

Sounds guilty, deserves jail. Don't care what the NFL does to him, but I can't see him ever having crowd support again.

[Okla-homey]

Sounds guilty, deserves jail. Don't care what the NFL does to him, but I can't see him ever having crowd support again.

It will be interesting to observe the NFL's ultimate reaction. Vick is the personification of the Atlanta franchise and thus represents big bank for the community. There is also that black NFL quarterback chestnut and thus the race card will be played early and often. If I were defending him, I'd beat on the table a lot and wave that card.

[OUHOMER]

if all is true, dead meat. And he deserves what he gets and more

[jk the sooner fan]

Vick has had some troubles in Atlanta before this and i'm not so sure that the owner isnt wishing that the NFL takes care of his problem.....that doesnt explain them trading away Schaub

i dont know to what extent he was involved, but he was involved at least to some degree, and on the scale that it seems this is, i'd say guilty

i dont care what the NFL does to him

the crowd he had outside the courthouse yesterday should be a sign of things to come for him

[sooner_born_1960]

I'm kinda surprised dog fighting is a federal offense. Doesn't Virginia have laws to cover this?

[OU4LIFE]

If I were defending him, I'd beat on the table a lot and wave that card.


and you'd be just as big a scumbag as we think most of you are now....

[Okla-homey]

I'm kinda surprised dog fighting is a federal offense. Doesn't Virginia have laws to cover this?

here ya go...evidently the Feds think some of the animals were not born in Virginia.


United States Code Annotated
Title 7. Agriculture

Chapter 54. Transportation, Sale, and Handling of Certain Animals

§ 2156. Animal fighting venture prohibition

(a) Sponsoring or exhibiting an animal in an animal fighting venture

(1) In general

Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly sponsor or exhibit an animal in an animal fighting venture, if any animal in the venture was moved in interstate or foreign commerce.

(2) Special rule for certain States

With respect to fighting ventures involving live birds in a State where it would not be in violation of the law, it shall be unlawful under this subsection for a person to sponsor or exhibit a bird in the fighting venture only if the person knew that any bird in the fighting venture was knowingly bought, sold, delivered, transported, or received in interstate or foreign commerce for the purpose of participation in the fighting venture.

[(b) Buying, selling, delivering, or transporting animals for participation in animal fighting venture

It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly sell, buy, transport, deliver, or receive for purposes of transportation, in interstate or foreign commerce, any dog or other animal for purposes of having the dog or other animal participate in an animal fighting venture.

(c) Use of Postal Service or other interstate instrumentality for promoting or furthering animal fighting venture

It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly use the mail service of the United States Postal Service or any instrumentality of interstate commerce for commercial speech for purposes of promoting or in any other manner furthering an animal fighting venture except as performed outside the limits of the States of the United States.

(d) Violation of State law

Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (c) of this section, the activities prohibited by such subsection shall be unlawful with respect to fighting ventures involving live birds only if the fight is to take place in a State where it would be in violation of the laws thereof.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly sell, buy, transport, or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce a knife, a gaff, or any other sharp instrument attached, or designed or intended to be attached, to the leg of a bird for use in an animal fighting venture.

(f) Investigation of violations by Secretary; assistance by other Federal agencies; issuance of search warrant; forfeiture; costs recoverable in forfeiture or civil action

The Secretary or any other person authorized by him shall make such investigations as the Secretary deems necessary to determine whether any person has violated or is violating any provision of this section, and the Secretary may obtain the assistance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of the Treasury, or other law enforcement agencies of the United States, and State and local governmental agencies, in the conduct of such investigations, under cooperative agreements with such agencies. A warrant to search for and seize any animal which there is probable cause to believe was involved in any violation of this section may be issued by any judge of the United States or of a State court of record or by a United States magistrate judge within the district wherein the animal sought is located. Any United States marshal or any person authorized under this section to conduct investigations may apply for and execute any such warrant, and any animal seized under such a warrant shall be held by the United States marshal or other authorized person pending disposition thereof by the court in accordance with this subsection. Necessary care including veterinary treatment shall be provided while the animals are so held in custody. Any animal involved in any violation of this section shall be liable to be proceeded against and forfeited to the United States at any time on complaint filed in any United States district court or other court of the United States for any jurisdiction in which the animal is found and upon a judgment of forfeiture shall be disposed of by sale for lawful purposes or by other humane means, as the court may direct. Costs incurred by the United States for care of animals seized and forfeited under this section shall be recoverable from the owner of the animals if he appears in such forfeiture proceeding or in a separate civil action brought in the jurisdiction in which the owner is found, resides, or transacts business.


(g) For purposes of this section--


(1) the term "animal fighting venture" means any event which involves a fight between at least two animals and is conducted for purposes of sport, wagering, or entertainment except that the term "animal fighting venture" shall not be deemed to include any activity the primary purpose of which involves the use of one or more animals in hunting another animal;

(2) the term "interstate or foreign commerce" means--

(A) any movement between any place in a State to any place in another State or between places in the same State through another State; or

(B) any movement from a foreign country into any State or from any State into any foreign country;

(3) the term "instrumentality of interstate commerce" means any written, wire, radio, television or other form of communication in, or using a facility of, interstate commerce;

(4) the term "State" means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any territory or possession of the United States;

(5) the term "animal" means any live bird, or any live dog or other mammal, except man; and

(6) the conduct by any person of any activity prohibited by this section shall not render such person subject to the other sections of this chapter as a dealer, exhibitor, or otherwise.

(h) Conflict with State law

The provisions of this chapter shall not supersede or otherwise invalidate any such State, local, or municipal legislation or ordinance relating to animal fighting ventures except in case of a direct and irreconcilable conflict between any requirements thereunder and this chapter or any rule, regulation, or standard hereunder.

(i) The criminal penalties for violations of subsection (a), (b), (c), or (e) of this section are provided in section 49 of Title 18.

[Boomer.....]

Throw him in jail!

[sooner_born_1960]

here ya go...evidently the Feds think some of the animals were not born in Virginia.
I'm sure they'll have witnesses to back up that part of the claim.
Thanks for doing the legal research. How much do I owe you?

[Okla-homey]

I'm sure they'll have witnesses to back up that part of the claim.
Thanks for doing the legal research. How much do I owe you?

and even if all the dogs were born in Virginia, they can nail him on this part if they used the phone, innerweb or mail to let folks know about the fights.


(c) Use of Postal Service or other interstate instrumentality for promoting or furthering animal fighting venture

It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly use the mail service of the United States Postal Service or any instrumentality of interstate commerce for commercial speech for purposes of promoting or in any other manner furthering an animal fighting venture except as performed outside the limits of the States of the United States.

[soonerbrat]

Throw him in jail!


not enough punishment.

[olevetonahill]

Put Him in the Rape chair and turn the dogs lose !

[Scott D]

I'm kinda surprised dog fighting is a federal offense. Doesn't Virginia have laws to cover this?

Ironically dog fighting is illegal in 49 states.

The one state where it isn't written as being illegal via law.






Georgia.

[StuIsTheMan]

Put Him in the Rape chair and turn the dogs lose !

heh...Rape Chair?

[yermom]

does TD2K have one of those too? :eek:

[TUSooner]

It may not be real "justice" ... but for purposes of the SO...

hammer the bastage!!!!

[Okla-homey]

and you'd be just as big a scumbag as we think most of you are now....

While I think I can partially appreciate your angst, precisely how is doing everything legally and ethically in your power to defend a client who is paying you to keep him out of the hoosegow "scummy?" Is there some list of crimes for which an accused should not be entitled to the assistance of counsel and a zealous defense? Please elucidate...

[MamaMia]

I would kill him myself, except I like my freedom. :P

[jk the sooner fan]

just because its legal doesnt mean its "right"

do what your conscious lets you do, but dont whine and bitch when your profession is the brunt of many jokes...

[TexasSooner01]

He should never play professional ball again. If he is going to treat animals like that how is he going to treat his wife and kids? He should go to jail and then fed to the dogs he trained to fight!

[Okla-homey]

just because its legal doesnt mean its "right"

do what your conscious lets you do, but dont whine and bitch when your profession is the brunt of many jokes...

I have long understood that everyone hates lawyers...until they are indicted.

[jk the sooner fan]

i dont think everyone hates ALL lawyers......i've got 3 in my near immediate family, i respect what they do

but like any profession, bad apples can be found anywhere

[colleyvillesooner]

17-0-0-0.

Done.

[colleyvillesooner]

i dont think everyone hates ALL lawyers......i've got 3 in my near immediate family, i respect what they do

but like any profession, bad apples can be found anywhere

I agree. There's alot of bad apples in Supply Chain. We're the Bad Boys of inventory control.

[Mjcpr]

I have never been indicted.

[jk the sooner fan]

I have never been indicted.

yeah, with that logic, he's betting on a very large portion of the population to appear in court.....

[Okla-homey]

I have never been indicted.

ever been sued or a party to a lawsuit? that succs too.

[jk the sooner fan]

nope! :)

[Howzit]

While I think I can partially appreciate your angst, precisely how is doing everything legally and ethically in your power to defend a client who is paying you to keep him out of the hoosegow "scummy?" Is there some list of crimes for which an accused should not be entitled to the assistance of counsel and a zealous defense? Please elucidate...

There's ethically, and then there's ethically.

[Howzit]

BTW, didn't I hear or read that Reverend Al had signed the PETA protest petition?

[Mjcpr]

ever been sued or a party to a lawsuit? that succs too.

Nope, luckily.

But I am getting shafted by one to go through the Probate nonsense. Does that count? :D

[Beef]

BTW, didn't I hear or read that Reverend Al had signed the PETA protest petition?
I read that, too. That caught me off guard. I figured he would have been behind Vick.

The way I look at this is Vick, whether knowingly or unknowingly, bankrolled this whole thing. I think it's hard to believe he bought this property and had absolutely no idea what was going on there. From what I've read, the house and none of the buildings were there when he bought the property. I doubt his buddies had the money to pay for the building of the houses and buildings. I guess being the poor boy that I am, I have a hard time understanding why someone would give their friends that kind of money and not have any idea what they were doing with it. He financed it, he's guilty in my book. I have serious doubts the charges will be proven in court, though.

[picasso]

make him shop at the GAP for a year.

[skycat]

There's ethically, and then there's ethically.

Exactly.

[OU4LIFE]

While I think I can partially appreciate your angst, precisely how is doing everything legally and ethically in your power to defend a client who is paying you to keep him out of the hoosegow "scummy?" Is there some list of crimes for which an accused should not be entitled to the assistance of counsel and a zealous defense? Please elucidate...

I think you covered it there, ethically. If you consider it morally appropriate to defend a client based solely on his skin color, or using his skin color as your defense, then I think the scumbag tag is appropriate.

you might as well defend me of watermelon theft by claiming that i'm white and couldn't have done it.

[SicEmBaylor]

This poll needed the option, "Yes, he should go to jail but not be banned from the NFL."

[Pricetag]

This poll needed the option, "Yes, he should go to jail but not be banned from the NFL."
Yep. That would have been my vote.

[JohnnyMack]

Initially an 8 game ban for violating the league's personal conduct rules.

If he's convicted (or pleads guilty) the ban should be commensurate with his sentence.

[Okla-homey]

This poll needed the option, "Yes, he should go to jail but not be banned from the NFL."

How is supposed to throw passes from federal prison? hmmmmmm?

[Scott D]

How is supposed to throw passes from federal prison? hmmmmmm?

The Longest Yard 2 starring Chris Tucker as Michael Vick.

[TexasSooner01]

The Longest Yard 2 starring Chris Tucker as Michael Vick.


LOL Thats funny!!:D

[Okla-homey]

There's ethically, and then there's ethically.

C'mon. You know yourself there is no ethical problem with attempting to induce reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury by positing that your guy was the victim of a gubmint frame-up. Heck, I bet most of the FBI guys involved are Redskins fans too.

Also, you'll argue your guy simply could not have known that stuff was happening on his farmland up in Virginia. Afterall, he's a big NFL star and is very busy managing and funding his various charitable entities that contribute so much to the community, especially the poor.


;)

[OUDoc]

How is supposed to throw passes from federal prison? hmmmmmm?
By pretending the soap is a football?

[TexasSooner01]

By pretending the soap is a football?


I hope he fumbles the soap!!!!

[sanantoniosooner]

Vick should hit all the golf courses he can and find the real dog fighters.

[AlbqSooner]

There's ethically, and then there's ethically.
Okay, from the perspective of a guy who did primarily criminal defense for 10 years here is the deal.
You, as an American Citizen have the right to walk around and choose where you walk and when and so forth. That is to say you have the right to Liberty. If the Government wants to deprive us of our Liberty they can do so under certain circumstances. However, because individual Liberty is such a precious right, the Constitution and the Congress, through its passage of laws has set up a series of hurdles the Government has to go over and a set of hoops they have to jump through before they have the right to deprive you of your Liberty.

You, like most non-lawyers, do not know what all of those hurdles are and where all those hoops are. Hence, you ask me, based upon my education, training and experience, to stand beside you and make sure the Government does not go around any hurdles or under any hoops.

I may not like you, and I may really hate what you did to cause the Government to want to deprive you of your Liberty. BUT! I must make sure that the Government cannot take a shortcut in depriving you of that most precious right. In so doing, I can neither lie to the Court nor allow anyone to lie to the Court if I know about it. Other than that, I must use every available resource to demonstrate that what the Government alleges is not factual or at the very least is subject to reasonable doubt.

Having said that, and not having been retained to represent Mr. Vick, I say slam his arse into a cell with Bubba for a very long time, take away his right to play professional football, and let him live the life of the pariah from this day forward. Dogs and babies are simply off limits!

[olevetonahill]

Okay, from the perspective of a guy who did primarily criminal defense for 10 years here is the deal.
You, as an American Citizen have the right to walk around and choose where you walk and when and so forth. That is to say you have the right to Liberty. If the Government wants to deprive us of our Liberty they can do so under certain circumstances. However, because individual Liberty is such a precious right, the Constitution and the Congress, through its passage of laws has set up a series of hurdles the Government has to go over and a set of hoops they have to jump through before they have the right to deprive you of your Liberty.

You, like most non-lawyers, do not know what all of those hurdles are and where all those hoops are. Hence, you ask me, based upon my education, training and experience, to stand beside you and make sure the Government does not go around any hurdles or under any hoops.

I may not like you, and I may really hate what you did to cause the Government to want to deprive you of your Liberty. BUT! I must make sure that the Government cannot take a shortcut in depriving you of that most precious right. In so doing, I can neither lie to the Court nor allow anyone to lie to the Court if I know about it. Other than that, I must use every available resource to demonstrate that what the Government alleges is not factual or at the very least is subject to reasonable doubt.

Having said that, and not having been retained to represent Mr. Vick, I say slam his arse into a cell with Bubba for a very long time, take away his right to play professional football, and let him live the life of the pariah from this day forward. Dogs and babies are simply off limits!
I like ur thinkin .

[Rogue]

I went to a **** fight in Texas. I thought I'd probably be repulsed, but I just couldn't get very riled up about chickens killin' each other. The idea of dog fights, OTOH, really turn my stomach. I've seen some of the aftermath, watched these fuggin' ingrates breed dogs that are dumb, aggressive, and have no place on the planet for too long. I am not objective about this at all and don't think about it too hard unless someone tries to defend pit bulls as being loving family pets. Except in those times when I'll try to use some reason and logic, I'm all gut on this issue. Dogfighters really are some of the lowest scum on the planet. Period.

[OUinFLA]

This poll needed the option, "Yes, he should go to jail but not be banned from the NFL."

And required to perform 6 hours of community service for the City of Atlanta each week.........Sunday afternoons.
Gonna be bad when playoffs occur on Saturday though.
:D

When considering what your answer should be, try to imagine what would happen to you, if you were the "suspect". Goose/Gander sorta thing.
Im pretty sure I would be going to jail.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Ring him up.

We'll see him hit the skinny post on the bootleg with Bubba's love hammer stuffed in his gizzard.

[SCOUT]

Okay, from the perspective of a guy who did primarily criminal defense for 10 years here is the deal.
You, as an American Citizen have the right to walk around and choose where you walk and when and so forth. That is to say you have the right to Liberty. If the Government wants to deprive us of our Liberty they can do so under certain circumstances. However, because individual Liberty is such a precious right, the Constitution and the Congress, through its passage of laws has set up a series of hurdles the Government has to go over and a set of hoops they have to jump through before they have the right to deprive you of your Liberty.

You, like most non-lawyers, do not know what all of those hurdles are and where all those hoops are. Hence, you ask me, based upon my education, training and experience, to stand beside you and make sure the Government does not go around any hurdles or under any hoops.

I may not like you, and I may really hate what you did to cause the Government to want to deprive you of your Liberty. BUT! I must make sure that the Government cannot take a shortcut in depriving you of that most precious right. In so doing, I can neither lie to the Court nor allow anyone to lie to the Court if I know about it. Other than that, I must use every available resource to demonstrate that what the Government alleges is not factual or at the very least is subject to reasonable doubt.

Having said that, and not having been retained to represent Mr. Vick, I say slam his arse into a cell with Bubba for a very long time, take away his right to play professional football, and let him live the life of the pariah from this day forward. Dogs and babies are simply off limits!
In concept, I couldn't agree with you more. The idea that there is a watchdog keeping the liberties of individuals safe makes me very happy. However, the question was about using "any" means to acuit someone. On that front I have some questions. If you know for a fact that the person is guilty do you still think diversionary tactics are good legal practice? For example, Mike Vick tells his lawyer he did it. The lawyer then mounts a defense about agency incompetence, racism and general governmental mistrust. Is that what was intended when people were guaranteed a proper defense?

[jk the sooner fan]

apparently one of the co-defendants has entered a guilty plea.......i'm sure as part of a plea bargain

bad news for Vick.......

[StoopTroup]

Probably one of his dawgs....

[Okla-homey]

Okay, from the perspective of a guy who did primarily criminal defense for 10 years here is the deal.
You, as an American Citizen have the right to walk around and choose where you walk and when and so forth. That is to say you have the right to Liberty. If the Government wants to deprive us of our Liberty they can do so under certain circumstances. However, because individual Liberty is such a precious right, the Constitution and the Congress, through its passage of laws has set up a series of hurdles the Government has to go over and a set of hoops they have to jump through before they have the right to deprive you of your Liberty.

You, like most non-lawyers, do not know what all of those hurdles are and where all those hoops are. Hence, you ask me, based upon my education, training and experience, to stand beside you and make sure the Government does not go around any hurdles or under any hoops.

I may not like you, and I may really hate what you did to cause the Government to want to deprive you of your Liberty. BUT! I must make sure that the Government cannot take a shortcut in depriving you of that most precious right. In so doing, I can neither lie to the Court nor allow anyone to lie to the Court if I know about it. Other than that, I must use every available resource to demonstrate that what the Government alleges is not factual or at the very least is subject to reasonable doubt.

Having said that, and not having been retained to represent Mr. Vick, I say slam his arse into a cell with Bubba for a very long time, take away his right to play professional football, and let him live the life of the pariah from this day forward. Dogs and babies are simply off limits!

Question. Speaking for yourself of course, did you typically ask your client if he did the thing he was accused of doing or did you prefer not to hear it from him? I understand there are two schools of thought on that.

[Howzit]

Okay, from the perspective of a guy who did primarily criminal defense for 10 years here is the deal.
You, as an American Citizen have the right to walk around and choose where you walk and when and so forth. That is to say you have the right to Liberty. If the Government wants to deprive us of our Liberty they can do so under certain circumstances. However, because individual Liberty is such a precious right, the Constitution and the Congress, through its passage of laws has set up a series of hurdles the Government has to go over and a set of hoops they have to jump through before they have the right to deprive you of your Liberty.

You, like most non-lawyers, do not know what all of those hurdles are and where all those hoops are. Hence, you ask me, based upon my education, training and experience, to stand beside you and make sure the Government does not go around any hurdles or under any hoops.

I may not like you, and I may really hate what you did to cause the Government to want to deprive you of your Liberty. BUT! I must make sure that the Government cannot take a shortcut in depriving you of that most precious right. In so doing, I can neither lie to the Court nor allow anyone to lie to the Court if I know about it. Other than that, I must use every available resource to demonstrate that what the Government alleges is not factual or at the very least is subject to reasonable doubt.

Having said that, and not having been retained to represent Mr. Vick, I say slam his arse into a cell with Bubba for a very long time, take away his right to play professional football, and let him live the life of the pariah from this day forward. Dogs and babies are simply off limits!


Whatever Gets You Through the Night - John Lennon

[SoonerGirl06]

This poll needed the option, "Yes, he should go to jail but not be banned from the NFL."

Is that how you would vote?

I really think the NFL should stop condoning the bad behavior of the players and penalize them severely... and not just slaps on the wrist with fines and such.

Also, I think sponsors should stop condoning this type of behavior as well and continuing to sponsor them. I applaud Nike for doing what they've done in Vick's case.

[AlbqSooner]

Question. Speaking for yourself of course, did you typically ask your client if he did the thing he was accused of doing or did you prefer not to hear it from him? I understand there are two schools of thought on that.
I never asked. If my client admitted to me that he did it, I could not ethically put him on the stand to deny it. Although it is not the conventional wisdom, I put my client on the stand if it were at all possible. Not, of course, if he had a multiple page listing of prior convictions. I believe the jury REALLY wants to hear the defendant say, "I did not do it."

Also, because I occasionally represented members of a certain Motorcycle club, I did not ask much of anything. If they told me something in confidence and through no fault of mine that information hit the streets, they would send someone by to ask me how that info got into the public domain. I did not want those people coming to question me.

[jk the sooner fan]

based on the poll results, and the general opinion, i'd hate to be in any defense attorney's position with this case

bringing up the race card would be at your own risk