Good Morning...First big scrap in the eastern theater

[Okla-homey]

July 21, 1861: First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/23236/2004097122705876299_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004097122705876299)
A slugfest of amateurs. Here, Michael Corcorans regiment of NYC Irish are depicted in the fight.

Since the war began three months earlier when rebel batteries fired on Ft Sumter at Charleston SC, things had been pretty quiet in the eastern theater.

146 years ago today, the Civil War erupted on a large scale in the east when Confederate forces under Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard of Louisiana turned back Union General Irwin McDowell's troops along Bull Run Creek in Virginia.

http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/18353/2004009900030907411_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004009900030907411)
Irwin McDowell

The inexperienced soldiers on both sides slugged it out in a chaotic battle that resulted in a humiliating retreat by the Yankees and signaled, for many, the true start of the war.

At the insistence of President Lincoln, Federal Major General Irwin McDowell set out to make a quick offensive against rebels concentrated in the vicinity of Manassas Junction, a key rail center 30 miles from Washington.

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McDowell's opposite was P.G.T. Beauregard. Here he is depicted in command of Rebel batteries with Ft. Sumter in their sights. The Creole West Pointer had been in command at Charleston when the war began three month's earlier and was itching for a chance to lead infantry in a stand-up fight.

On July 18, the Yankee advance was halted in a small skirmish at Blackburn's Ford on Bull Run Creek. McDowell paused for three days as he prepared to move around the Rebels. This was a crucial delay, because it allowed forces under CS General Joseph Johnston, guarding the Shenandoah Valley to the west, to join Beauregard. A brigade of Virginians commanded by former VMI professor Thomas J. Jackson was among the reinforcements.

When McDowell attacked on July 21, the Federal troops seemed poised to scatter the Confederates in front of them. While part of the Union force held the attention of the center of the Confederate line, the main attack came around the Rebel left.

http://aycu18.webshots.com/image/23977/2002489721213923921_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002489721213923921)

By noon, the Yankees had broken the line and sent the Confederates in retreat. Then McDowell moved in for the kill by attempting to capture Henry House Hill, the key terrain on the battlefield. McDowell did not apply the full pressure of his army, and that respite allowed Beauregard to strengthen his force on the hill. Jackson's brigade moved artillery into place, and McDowell now faced a much stronger Confederate position.

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/22823/2001935696709323571_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001935696709323571)
A view from Jacksons position toward Henry House Hill, Inside that little white frame house lies a bed bound Mrs. Judith Carter Henry. The poor old widow was killed by an errant shot that found her lying in bed. She was the first civilian to be killed in the Civil War. She will not be the last. Note to Fanima: there is no evidence to suggest the death of Mrs. Henry was ordered by Abraham Lincoln

During the battle, General Bernard Bee of SC led his Sandlappers to reinforce Jackson on Henry Hill. When they began to falter in the face of the blue-clad storm, Bee was reported to have shouted, "There stands Jackson like a stone wall! Rally on the Virginians boys!" Minutes after passing that order, Bee was killed, but the nickname "Stonewall" stuck.

http://aycu08.webshots.com/image/23487/2001936739510009589_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001936739510009589)
A monument to Jackson stands at the approximate location where he sat his horse when Bee saw him standing "like a Stone Wall."

Jackson's men held their ground. Later in the afternoon, the Rebels launched a counterattack that broke McDowell's force and triggered a panicked and confused retreat.

http://aycu08.webshots.com/image/23247/2004094716250594714_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004094716250594714)

The inexperienced Federals found their escape route clogged by the vehicles of "tailgaters" who had driven their wagons, buggies and coaches from Washington to watch the action while drinking and eating fried chicken. The clot of panicked Federal soldiers and shocked and horrified civilian spectators eventually made it back to the relative safety of D.C. by the next morning.

The green Union troops may have had a difficult time of it, but the equally green Confederates did not pursue.

Casualties at Bull Run shocked the nation. The Union count came to 2,800, including 460 killed, and the Confederates had 1,900, with nearly 400 dead. Although future battles would make these numbers appear small, they were a wake-up call to a public, in both the North and the South, unprepared for such a bloody conflict.

http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/20985/2004051402094747470_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004051402094747470)
The first Civil War battlefield monument erected by either side was put up at Bull Run by US veterans almost before the smoke cleared.

First Bull Run demonstrated that the war would not be won by one grand battle, and both sides began preparing for a long and bloody conflict. In the North, Lincoln called for an additional 500,000 volunteers with three-year enlistments, and the men with ninety-day enlistments were sent home.

In the South, once the euphoria of victory had worn off, Jefferson Davis called for 400,000 additional volunteers. The battle also showed the need for adequately trained and experienced officers and men. One year later many of the same soldiers who had fought at First Bull Run, now combat veterans, would have an opportunity to test their skills on the same battlefield.

Incidentally, one other thing of significance happened on this day in 1861. When Joe Johnston's columns, some of which wore blue Virginia militia uniforms, came marching in, there was some confusion because their flags, (now known as the First National flag) looked too much like the US flag in the chaos, smoke, dust and haze of the battlefield. Thus, shortly after the battle, CS forces in the east adopted a distinctive "battle flag" which was more easily distinguished from the US flag.

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/23757/2004057915327123982_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004057915327123982)
Jackson in his blue Virginia militia duds leads his brigade of Virginians onto the field. Note the First National flag and its similarity to the US flag.

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Subsequently adopted typical Army of Northern Virginia battle flag

[yermom]

i was there last summer. i'd have pics but alas, i broke my camera in Chicago on the way there

i had always heard it called Bull Run in books and stuff, but the Union called the battle Manassas based on the closest town vs. the Rebs naming it for the landmark

[Harry Beanbag]

i had always heard it called Bull Run in books and stuff, but the Union called the battle Manassas based on the closest town vs. the Rebs naming it for the landmark


Actually you have it backwards. The Confederates tended to name battles after the nearest town or settlement while the Union sometimes used geographical features.

-Bull Run was known as Manassas in the South

-Antietam was known as Sharpsburg in the South

-Shiloh was known as Pittsburg Landing in the South

The North won so we know the common names of the battles as the former.

[yermom]

hmm, i guess i remembered it wrong. it seemed like i had gotten a Southern slant from the books or something at the time

maybe they still call it Manassas in VA because they were Southerners, i mean they do have Jackson's statue up there ;)

i didn't recognize it by the name at first when i was there

[Turd_Ferguson]

I thought I had read some time ago, that if the horses two front hooves are off the ground on your monument, then you died in battle. Learn something new everyday I guess.

[FaninAma]

Note to Fanima: there is no evidence to suggest the death of Mrs. Henry was ordered by Abraham Lincoln


At the insistence of President Lincoln, Federal Major General Irwin McDowell set out to make a quick offensive against rebels concentrated in the vicinity of Manassas Junction, a key rail center 30 miles from Washington

Homey,

I am quite honored that you would take the time to mention me specifically in one of your excellent Civil War essays.


My reply would be that I am quite sure that Stalin did not specifically order all of the executions and deaths of civilians caused by Soviet troops or the KGB in rebellious Eastern Bloc countries. Same goes for Mao when millions of Chinese civilians were killed during the Great Purge after the communists assumed power. Both of these dictators used the same excuses as Lincoln did.......national security, preservation of the union and reinforcement of the tenet that there should be a strong central government that has jurisdiction over all other entities and citizens.

But does the fact they didn't order every single execution or death make them any less culpable?

Lincoln was quite the little war monger with little regard for the human suffering his decisions caused.....a quality shared by all great tyranists.

[SicEmBaylor]

i was there last summer. i'd have pics but alas, i broke my camera in Chicago on the way there

i had always heard it called Bull Run in books and stuff, but the Union called the battle Manassas based on the closest town vs. the Rebs naming it for the landmark

You've got that reversed. Union calls it Bull Run and the South calls it Manassas.

edit: Nevermind, someone already said it.

[SicEmBaylor]

Homey,

I am quite honored that you would take the time to mention me specifically in one of your excellent Civil War essays.


My reply would be that I am quite sure that Stalin did not specifically order all of the executions and deaths of civilians caused by Soviet troops or the KGB in rebellious Eastern Bloc countries. Same goes for Mao when millions of Chinese civilians were killed during the Great Purge after the communists assumed power. Both of these dictators used the same excuses as Lincoln did.......national security, preservation of the union and reinforcement of the tenet that there should be a strong central government that has jurisdiction over all other entities and citizens.

But does the fact they didn't order every single execution or death make them any less culpable?

Lincoln was quite the little war monger with little regard for the human suffering his decisions caused.....a quality shared by all great tyranists.
I second.

[Okla-homey]

I thought I had read some time ago, that if the horses two front hooves are off the ground on your monument, then you died in battle. Learn something new everyday I guess.

wives tale. You can Snopes.com it if you want, or take my word for it.:D

BTW, Jackson didn't die in battle. He died in bed. He suffered what should have been a non-mortal wound the evening after Chancellorsville when he was shot by NC pickets who mistook his command party for bad guys in the evening gloom. He died of pneumonia about a week after they took his arm off.

[Okla-homey]

Homey,

I am quite honored that you would take the time to mention me specifically in one of your excellent Civil War essays.


My reply would be that I am quite sure that Stalin did not specifically order all of the executions and deaths of civilians caused by Soviet troops or the KGB in rebellious Eastern Bloc countries. Same goes for Mao when millions of Chinese civilians were killed during the Great Purge after the communists assumed power. Both of these dictators used the same excuses as Lincoln did.......national security, preservation of the union and reinforcement of the tenet that there should be a strong central government that has jurisdiction over all other entities and citizens.

But does the fact they didn't order every single execution or death make them any less culpable?

Lincoln was quite the little war monger with little regard for the human suffering his decisions caused.....a quality shared by all great tyranists.

I hope you realize it was just a cheap shot I couldn't resist. ;)
Opinions vary about Mr. Lincoln. You know I think he's second only to Washington in the pantheon of American hero-presidents. I know you don't agree. That said, I hope we can agree to disagree.

[Rogue]

I drove through VA a couple years ago with a gal from Alabammer. She knew her history and kept pointing out CW sites saying "we call it 'somethingerother,' and the Yankees call it 'somethingelse.' " First I knew about the battle sites having different names.

[Okieflyer]

Homey,

I am quite honored that you would take the time to mention me specifically in one of your excellent Civil War essays.


My reply would be that I am quite sure that Stalin did not specifically order all of the executions and deaths of civilians caused by Soviet troops or the KGB in rebellious Eastern Bloc countries. Same goes for Mao when millions of Chinese civilians were killed during the Great Purge after the communists assumed power. Both of these dictators used the same excuses as Lincoln did.......national security, preservation of the union and reinforcement of the tenet that there should be a strong central government that has jurisdiction over all other entities and citizens.

But does the fact they didn't order every single execution or death make them any less culpable?

Lincoln was quite the little war monger with little regard for the human suffering his decisions caused.....a quality shared by all great tyranists.

To compare Lincoln with Stalin and Mao? You've got to be kidding. Fella maybe you should actually go and read some history. That's about like all these people who will throw out the "Facist" label, but don't have a clue what it really means.:rolleyes:

[yermom]

:pop:

[Flagstaffsooner]

To compare Lincoln with Stalin and Mao? You've got to be kidding. Fella maybe you should actually go and read some history. That's about like all these people who will throw out the "Facist" label, but don't have a clue what it really means.:rolleyes:Lincoln was much worse. He was a ruthless dictator with no respect for the US Constitution. His immoral war against the Southern States resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

You Sir, are a gawl-damned yankee!;)

[Scott D]

Homey,

I am quite honored that you would take the time to mention me specifically in one of your excellent Civil War essays.


My reply would be that I am quite sure that Stalin did not specifically order all of the executions and deaths of civilians caused by Soviet troops or the KGB in rebellious Eastern Bloc countries. Same goes for Mao when millions of Chinese civilians were killed during the Great Purge after the communists assumed power. Both of these dictators used the same excuses as Lincoln did.......national security, preservation of the union and reinforcement of the tenet that there should be a strong central government that has jurisdiction over all other entities and citizens.

But does the fact they didn't order every single execution or death make them any less culpable?

Lincoln was quite the little war monger with little regard for the human suffering his decisions caused.....a quality shared by all great tyranists.

Actually, Stalin personally ordered it. Stalin also attended a great deal of executions personally. For some of the more powerful that he ordered executed, he was known to do the deed himself. Stalin's goal was to consolidated as much power under himself as possible. He "felt" it was best to rule by fear and showed little to no leniency.

Stalin also ordered the Soviet Army to arrest and at times execute anyone who was of Russian bloodlines living outside of the Soviet Union, even if it was their parents or grandparents who had left Mother Russia for "greener" pastures in other portions of Europe. The GRU and KGB couldn't take a **** without Stalin being informed about it and giving permission.

Therefore, your continued attempts to paint he and Lincoln with the same broad brush are laughable at best sir.

[olevetonahill]

Lincoln was much worse. He was a ruthless dictator with no respect for the US Constitution. His immoral war against the Southern States resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

You Sir, are a gawl-damned yankee!;)
Dayum yankees :D

[FaninAma]

To compare Lincoln with Stalin and Mao? You've got to be kidding. Fella maybe you should actually go and read some history. That's about like all these people who will throw out the "Facist" label, but don't have a clue what it really means.:rolleyes:

Tyranny holds to no single political ideology. Tyranny is merely the quest for power for the sake of power. All spectrums of political ideology can spawn tyrants. Supression of civil liberties and expansion of the state's power in exchange for promises of more security(financially and militarily), preservation of a system of government, and supression of "traitors" are the thinly veiled excuses used by all tyrants to justify their machiavellian actions which are undertaken with little regard for human suffering.

Lincoln fits the mold on all acounts.

[olevetonahill]

Tyranny holds to no single political ideology. Tyranny is merely the quest for power for the sake of power. All spectrums of political ideology can spawn tyrants. Supression of civil liberties and expansion of the state's power in exchange for promises of more security(financially and militarily), preservation of a system of government, and supression of "traitors" are the thinly veiled excuses used by all tyrants to justify their machiavellian actions which are undertaken with little regard for human suffering.

Lincoln fits the mold on all acounts.
Give it a ****ing rest dude .
You have your opinion , every one else has thiers and Niether side will be changed .

[FaninAma]

Actually, Stalin personally ordered it. Stalin also attended a great deal of executions personally. For some of the more powerful that he ordered executed, he was known to do the deed himself. Stalin's goal was to consolidated as much power under himself as possible. He "felt" it was best to rule by fear and showed little to no leniency.

Stalin also ordered the Soviet Army to arrest and at times execute anyone who was of Russian bloodlines living outside of the Soviet Union, even if it was their parents or grandparents who had left Mother Russia for "greener" pastures in other portions of Europe. The GRU and KGB couldn't take a **** without Stalin being informed about it and giving permission.

Therefore, your continued attempts to paint he and Lincoln with the same broad brush are laughable at best sir.

First of all you need to read some ot the treatises that deal with how Native Americans were dealt with by Lincoln and those in his cabal(Sherman, Grant) who carried on after his death. Was Lincoln's disreagard for human suffering on the scale of Mao, Hitler and Stalin? No, but it should be small consolation to take the point of view that "Well, at least Lincoln's actions didn't result in as much human death and suffering as the worst tyrants in the history of the world."

All Lincoln's actions did was result in the largest loss of human life, national treasure and human suffering that has ever happened to US citizens since the inception of the nation. In fact, just the military deaths suffered in the Civil War outnumber the US casualties suffered in all the other wars the US has been involved with.....combined.

Quite a legacy.

And I find it hard to believe that Stalin signed off on every single person killed by his regime. He gave the orders, others carried out those orders. Lincoln also gave specific orders to have opponents jailed or silenced. And I think even the stauchest Lincoln defenders will admit that Lincoln was involved in most aspects of how the Union prosecuted the war......including the brutality exhibited by Sherman and his troops on their infamous march to the sea.

[FaninAma]

Give it a ****ing rest dude .
You have your opinion , every one else has thiers and Niether side will be changed .

Taking the conversation to a higher level, eh? Why not do the mature thing and don't read or respond if it bothers you? I would think you're capable of that.

[Okla-homey]

Tyranny holds to no single political ideology. Tyranny is merely the quest for power for the sake of power. All spectrums of political ideology can spawn tyrants. Supression of civil liberties and expansion of the state's power in exchange for promises of more security(financially and militarily), preservation of a system of government, and supression of "traitors" are the thinly veiled excuses used by all tyrants to justify their machiavellian actions which are undertaken with little regard for human suffering.

Lincoln fits the mold on all acounts.

You know, after President Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 (which freed all enslaved persons then residing in the rebellious states) you can make a colorable argument that Jefferson Davis and the Confederate government "tyranically" persisted in enslaving about 2.5 million people.

Personally, I'd rather be dead than enslaved. But that's just me.

[FaninAma]

Sorry Homey, I'd love to continue this conversation. I think the Civil War and Lincoln' legacy are fascinating subjects and good points can be made on both sides of these issues but apparently my point of view regarding Lincoln has worn thin with some of the other posters on this forum.

I do agree with olevet on one point...I have made my opinion crystal clear
before and any further posts by me on Lincoln would just be disruptive and would only lend themselves to highjacking your terrific essays.

[Newbomb Turk]

That's about like all these people who will throw out the "Facist" label, but don't have a clue what it really means.:rolleyes:

or how to spell it.

;)

[olevetonahill]

Taking the conversation to a higher level, eh? Why not do the mature thing and don't read or respond if it bothers you? I would think you're capable of that.
I usually ignore this kinda crap , . But you keep saying the same old shat and others are sayin there same old .
Yall aint gonna change each others minds .

[Rogue]

Homey's essays are for exactly this kind of argument. He's an instigator from way back. :D Seriously...even when the Homester includes his opinions he makes it clear and separates it from the historical truth as best it is recorded. I don't think these arguments are disparaging the Good Morning posts at all. Thoughtful disagreement and analysis is what makes history useful. Otherwise we'd all just accept the version in whichever book our 5th grade teacher had in the classroom. Which is why these particular debates about the Civil War are so fascinating to me. Growing up in Idaho, neither rebel nor yankee by definition, I learned the yankee version. As many times as I hear the arguments about states' rights and how it wasn't "really about slavery" I have a hard time changing my mind about the version I was taught... which is basically that Lincoln was the Great Emancipator and the southerners were a bunch of slave beatin' racist yokels. I was amazed when I joined the Army and realized that some people from the South actually still had, and proudly displayed, rebel flags. Now, having lived in the South for many years, I'm still learning and think it's a fascinating cultural riff that carries on today.

[Jerk]

Well, the only thing I have to say about this, is that I wish the South would have freed the slaves and then seperated from the union. The moral issue of slavery was one that the CSA could never win, but I do agree with the premise that those who write the laws that you live under should live close to you - not 1500 miles away.