Good thing Saudi Arabia is our friend or we might need to do something about this

[Hatfield]

Many detainees in Iraq are Saudi Mon Jul 16, 1:17 PM ET


Nearly half of the foreign detainees held in Iraq are Saudi citizens, and lists of their names were given to Saudi officials during a recent visit by an Iraqi delegation, national security adviser Mouwaffak al-Rubaie said in remarks aired Monday.

Al-Rubaie's comments to Al-Arabiya television were made during a three-day visit last week to Saudi Arabia in which he met senior officials, including Interior Minister Prince Nayef.

"The Iraqi government says that nearly half of the foreigners in Iraqi prisoners are from Saudi Arabia. Hundreds of them are in Camp Bucca and other prisons controlled by coalition forces," al-Rubaie said. He did not give a total figure of Saudi detainees.

In Iraq, the U.S. Army is holding thousands of prisoners at Camp Cropper near Baghdad airport and in Camp Bucca in the southern desert.

"There are some Saudis who are serving sentences and we have given the brothers, Saudi officials ... lists containing the names of Saudi detainees," he said.

Last week, al-Rubaie said before leaving for Saudi Arabia that the majority of the suicide bombers and "those who drive the vehicles to blow up our innocent civilians, Iraqis, are Saudis." Al-Rubaie, who headed the delegation, said then "we need to stop the flow of suicide bombers, we need to stop the fatwas (religious edicts) coming from Saudis to justify the killings of innocent Iraqis."

In the interview with Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya, al-Rubaie said that he raised the issue of fatwas with officials in the kingdom and "we heard very good news." He did not elaborate.

-this news with the fact that the majority of the highjackers on 9/11 were Saudis is troubling to me....and yet all you really hear about is Iran Iran Iran.

(not saying Iran's involvement isn't a problem....just pointing out how our buddy Saudi is a getting a pass on their "lack of institutional control")

[Xstnlsooner]

To coin a well used phrase..."with friends like these, who needs enemies?"

[JohnnyMack]

<W>Look over here! At these Iraqi's! And these Iranians! They're bad! Bad I tell ya! Don't worry about the Saudi's, my Daddy said we ain't gotta worry about them.</W>

[jeremy885]

Is the government of Saudi Arabia funding, training, and sending these guys to Iraq like Iran is doing?

[Hamhock]

Is the government of Saudi Arabia funding, training, and sending these guys to Iraq like Iran is doing?


:les: get your logic out of here!!!

[JohnnyMack]

Is the government of Saudi Arabia funding, training, and sending these guys to Iraq like Iran is doing?

I think you're fooling yourself if you think they're not facilitating and/or turning a blind eye to the fact that many of its citizens are committing terrorist acts.

[jeremy885]

Do they train, fund, and give a blessing to there people to go to Iraq to kill Americans?

I'm not saying that they're perfect, but comparing to Iran is stupid. They have there own issues and just like Pakistan, if they crack down on their people like we want them to, they (the royal family) will no longer be in power. I would rather have the current situation, then some crazy mullahs running the biggest oil producing country in the world.

[MextheBulldog]

Do they train, fund, and give a blessing to there people to go to Iraq to kill Americans?

I'm not saying that they're perfect, but comparing to Iran is stupid. They have there own issues and just like Pakistan, if they crack down on their people like we want them to, they (the royal family) will no longer be in power. I would rather have the current situation, then some crazy mullahs running the biggest oil producing country in the world.

Saudi prince(s) to Bush: We cannot crackdown on our own terrorist people, but why don't you guys send over thousands of troops for target practice?

Bush: What a great idea!

Saudi Arabia is not our ally.

[soonerscuba]

There are still people willing to defend Saudi Arabia? Learn something new everyday.

[soonerscuba]

Oh, I forgot. PEOPLE WHO IGNORE THE SAUDIS ARE NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE CONSERVATIVES WOULD IGNORE HITLER TOO!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE THEY WOULD RATHER LISTEN TO BILLY GRAHAM THAN FIGHT TERRORISM111111111

This is the SO and all.

[Octavian]

If you're interested there are several great books on how we became and why we remain "friends" with Saudi Arabia.




http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4079/074325339601ss500sclzzzxo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7016/51r7a11kwwlss500eg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


This one's more of a broader history and might be the one I'd recommend...though it wasn't a NYT's bestseller like the first two.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/8882/bronson20oil20largebz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Despite all the critiques, each author concedes that it's a partership based out of necessity. We need them and vice versa. Their oil keeps our lights on and our cars running...our very way of life. Our fiat currency isn't backed by anything of substance...except the Fed's good word and Saudi crude. They've invested an incredible amount into our economy. In turn, we've made their leaders world class rich. Richer than anybody.


But for all its wealth, its a pretty fragile regime. The nightmare scenario would be that government actually failing and the ultra radical elements in Saudi society taking over. I'm not sure what we'd do...it'd be a nightmare....we'd be forced to secure the major oil fields through occupation and basically just steal it. We'd say it was in the interest of national security...which it would be. That'd be very unpopular (not to say anything of the legalities)...but it'd be more unpopular if our way of life came to a grinding halt. Who knows what will happen on the backside of Peak Oil.


But if anyone thinks an American leader -from either party -would attack or seriously lash out at the Saudi Arabian regime as of now they're completely wrong. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. OBL and the founders and top leaders in aQ are...Saudis. The global jihadist movement originated in and continues to be fueld inside Saudi Arabia. Those are no secrets...the American public knows all that. They know we know. Doesn't matter. Both governments (and other world governments too) realize that it's the US-Saudi financial relationship that keeps the global economy running. Other than being close personally and financially, its why Dubya and Prince Saud constantly hold hands like they're in puppy love. They need to convey to viewers that the relationship is strong and everything's gonna keep rolling along as is.

[picasso]

If you're interested there are several great books on how we became and why we remain "friends" with Saudi Arabia.




http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4079/074325339601ss500sclzzzxo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7016/51r7a11kwwlss500eg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


This one's more of a broader history and might be the one I'd recommend...though it wasn't a NYT's bestseller like the first two.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/8882/bronson20oil20largebz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Despite all the critiques, each author concedes that it's a partership based out of necessity. We need them and vice versa. Their oil keeps our lights on and our cars running...our very way of life. Our fiat currency isn't backed by anything of substance...except the Fed's good word and Saudi crude. They've invested an incredible amount into our economy. In turn, we've made their leaders world class rich. Richer than anybody.


But for all its wealth, its a pretty fragile regime. The nightmare scenario would be that government actually failing and the ultra radical elements in Saudi society taking over. I'm not sure what we'd do...it'd be a nightmare....we'd be forced to secure the major oil fields through occupation and basically just steal it. We'd say it was in the interest of national security...which it would be. That'd be very unpopular (not to say anything of the legalities)...but it'd be more unpopular if our way of life came to a grinding halt. Who knows what will happen on the backside of Peak Oil.


But if anyone thinks an American leader -from either party -would attack or seriously lash out at the Saudi Arabian regime as of now they're completely wrong. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. OBL and the founders and top leaders in aQ are...Saudis. The global jihadist movement originated in and continues to be fueld inside Saudi Arabia. Those are no secrets...the American public knows all that. They know we know. Doesn't matter. Both governments (and other world governments too) realize that it's the US-Saudi financial relationship that keeps the global economy running. Other than being close personally and financially, its why Dubya and Prince Saud constantly hold hands like they're in puppy love. They need to convey to viewers that the relationship is strong and everything's gonna keep rolling along as is.
agreed.

Bush should talk hard towards them too but how many (bad guys) do we take on? we need the oil and it ain't just Bushie.

[OklahomaTuba]

But for all its wealth, its a pretty fragile regime. The nightmare scenario would be that government actually failing and the ultra radical elements in Saudi society taking over. I'm not sure what we'd do...it'd be a nightmare....we'd be forced to secure the major oil fields through occupation and basically just steal it. We'd say it was in the interest of national security...which it would be. That'd be very unpopular (not to say anything of the legalities)...but it'd be more unpopular if our way of life came to a grinding halt. Who knows what will happen on the backside of Peak Oil.

Interesting. I am Luxembourg right now and a member of the Saudi Royal Family basically told me the same thing. (there are A LOT of members by the way, and he isn't all the important.)

Everyone knows why Saudi is important. The family is NOT our enemy, at least not ALL of them.

[JohnnyMack]

I am Luxembourg right now

Pick me up some good beer while you're there white boy.

:D

[picasso]

Pick me up some good euro shemale mags while you're there white boy.

:D

:eek:

[JohnnyMack]

:eek:

Pfft.

Like you wouldn't want to borrow them again.

[picasso]

Pfft.

Like you wouldn't want to borrow them again.
I've put those days behind me.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Is the government of Saudi Arabia funding, training, and sending these guys to Iraq like Iran is doing?


Shhhhh...thinking is bad. The Dems don't like to do it!

[Harry Beanbag]

The only answer to this mess is a viable alternate fuel source, everybody knows that. Or we can raise a 10 million man army and wipe out the entire Middle East. We might have to do the latter anyway before we get even close to the former.

[soonerscuba]

I don't think that anybody is arguing that we should invade Saudi Arabia, but I it interesting that suddenly moral relativism is OK as far as the middle east is concerned. It just reeks, these people cut heads off as a public spectacle, they fund terrorists, they have the same stance towards Israel as Iran, and the sooner we stop dealing with them the better.

[skycat]

I don't think that anybody is arguing that we should invade Saudi Arabia, but I it interesting that suddenly moral relativism is OK as far as the middle east is concerned. It just reeks, these people cut heads off as a public spectacle, they fund terrorists, they have the same stance towards Israel as Iran, and the sooner we stop dealing with them the better.

Suddenly?

[Harry Beanbag]

I don't think that anybody is arguing that we should invade Saudi Arabia, but I it interesting that suddenly moral relativism is OK as far as the middle east is concerned. It just reeks, these people cut heads off as a public spectacle, they fund terrorists, they have the same stance towards Israel as Iran, and the sooner we stop dealing with them the better.


Saudi Arabia isn't developing nuclear weapons right now, that probably has a lot to do with the "moral relativism" between them and Iran.

And let's not forget those pesky stories about Iranian troops getting in firefights with American and Iraqi troops, training "insurgents" to kill American soldiers, and capturing British sailors.

[jeremy885]

I don't think that anybody is arguing that we should invade Saudi Arabia, but I it interesting that suddenly moral relativism is OK as far as the middle east is concerned. It just reeks, these people cut heads off as a public spectacle, they fund terrorists, they have the same stance towards Israel as Iran, and the sooner we stop dealing with them the better.

They execute people, we execute people. Should the Europeans lump us with them?

Their government funds terrorism? Iran has Hezzbollah, which group does the government of Saudi Arabia fund again?

Didn't they offer a middle east peace deal where everyone would recoqinize Israel if Israel went back to it's pre war borders and allowed displaced Arabs to return to their homes? Not the best treaty, but it's better than Iran's constant threat of wiping Israel of the face of the Earth.

I'm not defending every action of the Saudis. They do a lot that I disagree with, but this is the real world and everything isn't black and white. Should we punish Japan for not publicly admitting to using South Korean women as sex slaves in and trying to whitewash their WW2 history?

[soonerscuba]

They execute people, we execute people. Should the Europeans lump us with them?

Their government funds terrorism? Iran has Hezzbollah, which group does the government of Saudi Arabia fund again?

Didn't they offer a middle east peace deal where everyone would recognize Israel if Israel went back to it's pre war borders and allowed displaced Arabs to return to their homes? Not the best treaty, but it's better than Iran's constant threat of wiping Israel of the face of the Earth.

I'm not defending every action of the Saudis. They do a lot that I disagree with, but this is the real world and everything isn't black and white. Should we punish Japan for not publicly admitting to using South Korean women as sex slaves in and trying to whitewash their WW2 history?

Yes, Europe lumps us in with Saudi Arabia in terms of the death penalty, but at least we don't cut peoples' heads off.

Uhh, the Taliban and Hamas come to mind.

And yes, I guess they thought about recognizing Israel as a country, but like I said, if Iran had the same policy as Saudi Arabia, people would talk about the same things.

I would gladly play $5/gallon if it meant that we didn't have to deal with that pathetic country ever again, 15 people from that magical place of good will killed 3,000 Americans. To hell with 'em.

[Octavian]

I rarely disagree with you, scuba...but I will here even though I agree with you that Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive and murderous regimes on the Earth. The reason I disagree is simply because there isn't an alternative. We have to.


If Americans didn't have unfettered access to Saudi oil, a worldwide economomic depression would ensue. Not a recession, but a depression. It'd be so revolutionarily awful I dont really like thinking about it.


We don't rely on Saudi oil just for the gas in the tanks...we literally use their oil for just about every single thing one can think of...from the production of everything from tires to shampoo bottles to computer chips to furniture....from the construction of roads and houses to agriculture equipment. We use it to make and transport our food. No one knows how to farm anymore. We consume that too. We're all in the Age of Hydrocarbons and oil is our god.


The subject of Peak Oil isn't a very well known or discussed in general. There are a lot of people on this board in the energy business and I'm sure they know more about it than I do. But the world is running out of oil and all the governments know it. There's disagreement about when we've hit the top of the bell curve, (the US government formally states that the world will hit Peak Oil in 2037...a projection that the scientific community has essentially laughed at.) but there's not disagreement about the existence of that bell curve or that we're closer to the latter half than the beginning. A recent conference of the world's top scientific experts said that this very year we've hit the top....the source for production from this point on will go downhill....while increased population levels and emerging markets in China and India will cause the demand for oil to skyrocket in the coming decades.


It's probably a good thing it doesn't make its way into the media because its a very, very scary prospect and there's nothing we can really do about it. Our reserves would last only a few months. Tapping into domestic sources or obtaining it from elsewhere wouldn't give us nearly enough either. The end of oil could have some traumatic results for global society and the very idea of democratic governence. It has the potential to get pretty ugly. There are some very good books on this subject:


http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5994/41oa1gjqnclss500ng8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/6025/41x67vgmwzlss500ag8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5894/endoilgd9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


There's also some excellent documentaries on Peak Oil, the Iraq War, and the changing nature of human society in the 21st century as a result which you can find free of charge on the internet.

The End of Suburbia and The Oil Factor: Behind the War on Terror are probably the best two I've seen.


By far, the best website on Peak Oil is this one (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/).


The military's original operational tagline for the Iraq War was Operation Iraqi Liberation. It didn't take us long to change that title...it spelled O-I-L!! There'a reason we invaded Iraq and established permanent military bases....and it wasn't about spreading freedom to poor people that do nothing for us in return. There are massive gas lines in Iraq right now. They can barely fill up their tanks and they're sitting on top of one of the world's largest reserves. So where is it going? What was the first government complex that was secured when US troops rolled into Baghdad? What it is more protected in Iraq...the oil fields or the neighborhoods?


In a world that's running out of oil, I completely believe our government made a strategic decision to soften a coming catastrophe...but sold it to the people in other more moralistic terms so we'd go along. Or -- at the very least -- Iraq's oil tilted the scales in their minds.


In his 2006 State of the Union, Bush finally admitted what we've all known for years....that America was "addicted to oil." It was weird hearing it from him...of all people. It conjured up in my mind some of the images seen from the anti-war crowd....


http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9850/addict1nq6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Of course, Bush and Cheney are both oil men. They and their families have made fortunes in energy. (not saying that's a bad thing...we need that energy to live like we do). They're quite aware of Peak Oil and its potential consequences. In their minds, they probably think they've extended the shelf life of post industrial American society....and in return all they catch is grief.



Anyways...the Saudi government is probably the most pro-American regime in the region. It's people are the most anti-American on Earth. One of the reasons they're so brutal to their own people is because of this paradox. Its why OBL split from the established royal family and was subsequently exiled. The pro-American government must supress their anti-American population to maintain power. A perfect example of why democracy for all is NOT in the best interests of the U.S. We do not want the House of Saud to fall. Are we sleeping with the devil? You bet. But if we weren't...we wouldn't have a bed to sleep in.


In the decades to come, we will probably see American kids flung all across the globe to fight for the world's most valuable and increasingly scarce resource. As long as the House of Saud is in power, that's one more place American kids don't have to go....and since Saudi Arabia is easily the most oil rich nation, you can bet the farm that American kids WILL be fighting on the Arabian Peninsula should that regime fail.


In essence, the more we see of this...


http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5510/231saudini2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


...the less we'll see of this...


http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5927/iraqwarswarmerkm8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



SIA for the novel.

[Octavian]

did I break the board with that one? :confused: :D


why isn't it showing up?

[usmc-sooner]

sometimes I laugh out loud at the plan's you guy's propose

call me when you've been there.