So Now What.........Answers?

[fwsooner22]

I have read way too many "reflex responses" and "venting of anger", including my own.

The truth is this "thing" is very serious. We were just in front of the NCAA for Kelvin Sampson's disregard for the rules, we have a gymnastics team that had to be disciplined, our baseball team had problems with scholarship distribution and now THIS.

I am old enough to remember the mid 70's and every problem since then. I am tired of this stuff. It is embarrassing. I am tired to a point that I want answers. I want Joe C. (and anyone else) to provide us with what he is going to do about this. I have seen constant efforts to take more of my money every season. Way too much time is spent on getting more and more money for more and more expansion, facilities, etc. That's fine, but it is clear we are putting way too much time and effort in one area and ignoring other areas. That is usually the death march for a "normal" business.

For all the good that has happened during the last decade, it can all be erased with one more idioitic move.

"You can't monitor 85 kids all the time?" Really? How does everyone else do it? Find out how "everyone else does it". Make some changes now!

I am not an expert on any of this, I am just a tired, old, season ticket holder but I do know this, whoever is in charge of the compliance office (if that is Joe C., goodbye) and everyone who has been hired by that person should be let go.....today.

I am as upset as the rest of you but I want answers this time.

[sooner45]

Wacking Joe C. and the whole compliance office is not the answer. I agree that more rules and regulations probably need to be set in place, but saying, "Hey, lets just wack everybody" is not the answer.

[fwsooner22]

Wacking Joe C. and the whole compliance office is not the answer. I agree that more rules and regulations probably need to be set in place, but saying, "Hey, lets just wack everybody" is not the answer.


I don't think I could really fire Joe C. either but he has to answer for this. It is happening under his watch. I was just trying to give some action to this instead of just saying blah, blah, blah. AD's have been fired for less.

The time for more rules and reg's should have passed some time ago.

[Snrfn4ever08]

"You can't monitor 85 kids all the time?" Really? How does everyone else do it? Find out how "everyone else does it". Make some changes now!


In the university's defense, the compliance office doesn't just monitor the football program. Football alone lists 100+ students on the roster, then you have to add on basketball, baseball, etc. That's quite a task to handle. I think what everyone seems to be forgetting is that the compliance office caught these guys. They didn't do it in the most timely manner, but how is it failure to monitor if they were the ones to discover the scandal? It's impossible to simultaneously monitor hundreds of student-athletes with jobs under close scrutiny at all times.

As far as how everyone else is doing it, everyone else isn't doing it. USC and tOSU certainly aren't doing it. Many schools are choosing not to bring some of these violations to light, and why should they, a punishment like this provides no motivation for future offenders to call out their own offenses. With that said, I don't necessarily think that we need answers now...it doesn't matter what did or didn't happen in the past. Now it's just time for everybody to toe the line, because if anything else happens during the probationary period, then the hammer will really fall

[soonervegas]

I believe you can monitor all your student/athletes. There are numerous programs that do not get in trouble.

Fact is, our compliance department was a paper tiger. It was there, but it wasn't a focus of this administration. Sad considering our history in this area. We had a much smaller compliance department than other major universitys and it cost us. That's not the NCAA's fault, it is ours.

[TexasLidig8r]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. The letter after the Oregon fiasco (in which he used the wrong word... principal)... the lying about your women's basketball coach being offered a job by Texas... the whining about appealing the vacating of wins (uh... Boren, if you feel so strongly, appeal everything!).... it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.

How about... "Hey Boren, you have an AD.. let me do his job!" If you really want to get involved how about, getting involved in completely revamping the Compliance Department and bringing them into the 21st Century and then, focus more on academic programs, scholarly pursuits and fundraising?" In other words, stop acting like a jilted fan and start acting presidential.

Oh Boren,,, one last thing... after your appeal is denied and you are considering litigation, remember... with litigation comes discovery... document production... subpoenas.. depositions... sworn testimony... do you really want someone with those tools to look into this situation?

[fwsooner22]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. The letter after the Oregon fiasco (in which he used the wrong word... principal)... the lying about your women's basketball coach being offered a job by Texas... the whining about appealing the vacating of wins (uh... Boren, if you feel so strongly, appeal everything!).... it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.

How about... "Hey Boren, you have an AD.. let me do his job!" If you really want to get involved how about, getting involved in completely revamping the Compliance Department and bringing them into the 21st Century and then, focus more on academic programs, scholarly pursuits and fundraising?" In other words, stop acting like a jilted fan and start acting presidential.

Oh Boren,,, one last thing... after your appeal is denied and you are considering litigation, remember... with litigation comes discovery... document production... subpoenas.. depositions... sworn testimony... do you really want someone with those tools to look into this situation?


Geez, I hate it when I have to agree TexasLid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Snrfn4ever08]

I believe you can monitor all your student/athletes. There are numerous programs that do not get in trouble.

Fact is, our compliance department was a paper tiger. It was there, but it wasn't a focus of this administration. Sad considering our history in this area. We had a much smaller compliance department than other major universitys and it cost us. That's not the NCAA's fault, it is ours.
These numerous programs don't get in trouble because they don't do the honest thing and report violations. The main fault OU had was coming out in the open and admitting their mistakes...something that USC instead chooses to hide, which seems to work out a whole let better for them than honestly did for us.

To clarify on monitoring, it is possible to monitor all student/athletes, but to what degree? It's hard for the compliance department to monitor all student/athletes under close scrutiny at all times. I'm not saying the compliance department didn't make a mistake and I'm not trying to give them an out, but they at least they caught them in the end and attempted to rectify the situation. When someway is that determined to cheat others, they will find loopholes in the system.

[Vaevictis]

Had the gross earning statements been timely collected in the fall of 2005, the institution could have started the inquiry at that time. Instead, the institution waited until the summer of 2006, several months after the anonymous e-mails triggered the investigation leading to the violations set forth in Finding B-1, to collect the 2005 gross earning statements. The delay in detecting these violations meant that student-athletes 1 and 2 were able to compete during the entire 2005 season and practice during the spring of 2006. The institution explained that it failed to collect the gross earning statements due to oversight connected with a change in responsibility for the administration of the employment monitoring forms. Prior to the 2005 fall academic term, the responsibility for administering these forms resided with the career center coordinator ("coordinator") who served in the academic services department. Beginning with the 2005 fall term, that responsibility shifted to the compliance division of the athletics department. The coordinator stated that he administered the forms at the beginning of the summer of 2005, but did not do so thereafter because he understood that the responsibility for collecting the gross earning statements had transferred to the compliance division. The members of the compliance staff, meanwhile, stated that they understood that the career center coordinator would still collect the 2005 summer gross earning statements. As a result, no one from the institution collected the gross earning statements that summer.

^ that there seems to be the root of the problem.

The NCAA report indicates that had we collected the gross earning statements, our monitoring system would have likely detected the discrepancies between what the athletes reported and what they actually received.

And that's pretty easy to address: You need a process that actively and regularly certifies that an athlete has all of his documentation turned in.

Every month, you have a checklist of documentation that should be received this month AND a list of documentation that may have been previously received (all the way back to when the student first showed up) that is necessary for ongoing compliance.

You have someone verify that the documentation that should have been received this month was received, and if so, you have that person certify it. You also have someone verify that the documentation that should already be in the hands of the department is actually in the hands of the department (ie, in case it got overlooked and/or lost), if you still have everything you used to have, and you have that person certify it.

The coaches should receive a certification on each and every player every month, and if they don't have a certification for that month, the player shouldn't be allowed to play/practice/whatever meets the NCAA requirements.

They need to have this kind of certification process for each and every player, with that player being certified as being in compliance with each and every regulation, and the certifications need to expire regularly and often so that a player has to be re-certified in a timely fashion.

It's going to be labor intensive, and it's going to suck. You can't assume that a player who has been eligible is eligible until you find out otherwise, you have to assume that a player who has been eligible has become ineligible since the last time you checked, and you have to prove each and every time period that the player is in fact still eligible.

If I were the Joe C, I'd go out and engage some ninja accountant who specializes in fraud detection, and have them implement controls.

And frankly, I'd have them do the same to the coaches.

[Tear Down This Wall]

Listen, everybody...this isn't rocket science. The job of the compliance department is to make sure the school is complying with all NCAA regulations (as well as others).

So, there is no excuse. It was their job to monitor. It doesn't matter how many student athletes OU has. If the people doing the job couldn't do it, hire more...or hire more competent employees.

Joe C. is the top dog at the athletic department. He wants to stand around in the pictures when championships are won. He wants to roam the sidelines and grin at the camera. In his mind, he probably thinks people are serious about giving him the Big 12 commish job.

But, you can't play it both ways.

If your biggest television revenue programs - men's basketball and football - are in trouble in back to back years...there's a problem. Quit hiding behind Boren's skirt and get out here and apologize and tell us how it's going to be different.

I've had it up to here with the "we're going to appeal it" and "we're the ones who reported it." Dammit, you're missing the point! The point is it happened on your watch! And, not just once, but multiple times in multiple sports!

Cut the damn "we're so put upon" routine, admit that the compliance department f'd up under your watch, and get the program back in line! Why is this so difficult?

The only thing I can think of is egos.

[Snrfn4ever08]

And that's pretty easy to address: You need a process that actively and regularly certifies that an athlete has all of his documentation turned in.

Every month, you have a checklist of documentation that should be received this month AND a list of documentation that may have been previously received (all the way back to when the student first showed up) that is necessary for ongoing compliance.

You have someone verify that the documentation that should have been received this month was received, and if so, you have that person certify it. You also have someone verify that the documentation that should already be in the hands of the department is actually in the hands of the department (ie, in case it got overlooked and/or lost), if you still have everything you used to have, and you have that person certify it.

The coaches should receive a certification on each and every player every month, and if they don't have a certification for that month, the player shouldn't be allowed to play/practice/whatever meets the NCAA requirements.

They need to have this kind of certification process for each and every player, with that player being certified as being in compliance with each and every regulation, and the certifications need to expire regularly and often so that a player has to be re-certified in a timely fashion.

It's going to be labor intensive, and it's going to suck. You can't assume that a player who has been eligible is eligible until you find out otherwise, you have to assume that a player who has been eligible has become ineligible since the last time you checked, and you have to prove each and every time period that the player is in fact still eligible.

But if I were the Joe C, I'd go out and engage some ninja accountant who specializes in fraud detection, and have them implement controls.
I give you kudos on that. Sounds like a good plan to me. They need to concentrate really hard now on not screwing up before May 23, 2010, because one more stupid little mistake could bring down the NCAA's hammer. Any mistakes they've made in the past are irrelevant now. They need to stop spending time trying to appeal and instead concentrate on revamping the compliance department to make sure this never happens again

[Speer]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. The letter after the Oregon fiasco (in which he used the wrong word... principal)... the lying about your women's basketball coach being offered a job by Texas... the whining about appealing the vacating of wins (uh... Boren, if you feel so strongly, appeal everything!).... it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.

How about... "Hey Boren, you have an AD.. let me do his job!" If you really want to get involved how about, getting involved in completely revamping the Compliance Department and bringing them into the 21st Century and then, focus more on academic programs, scholarly pursuits and fundraising?" In other words, stop acting like a jilted fan and start acting presidential.

Oh Boren,,, one last thing... after your appeal is denied and you are considering litigation, remember... with litigation comes discovery... document production... subpoenas.. depositions... sworn testimony... do you really want someone with those tools to look into this situation?
So I guess Boren should sit back and keep eating **** sandwiches? I'm glad he publicly fights tooth and nail for OU and doesn't give a flip about outsider perception. That's what a university president should do.

Link for the lie about UT offering OU's coach the women's basketball job please. (seriously)

[BoonesFarmSooner]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. The letter after the Oregon fiasco (in which he used the wrong word... principal)... the lying about your women's basketball coach being offered a job by Texas... the whining about appealing the vacating of wins (uh... Boren, if you feel so strongly, appeal everything!).... it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.



Since when is Sherry Coale a part of the football program?

Boren is the president of the University. As such, his actions carry more weight and garner more publicity than the AD. And we needed a voice after the Oregon game... And I fully agree with his stance on the 2005 season.

I'm thankful he's at OU!

Put yourself in our shoes, Lid - if you'd have been cheated out of the National Title race in week two by some incompetant tree-hugging, dip$hits - you guys would've been all freaked out too!

[zeke]

[QUOTE=Speer]So I guess Boren should sit back and keep eating **** sandwiches? I'm glad he publicly fights tooth and nail for OU and doesn't give a flip about outsider perception. That's what a university president should do.

I agree.

I have confidence in those who are in place at OU to see that the appropriate steps have been taken to make sure that OU will not have any more NCAA problems in the near future.

[fwsooner22]

I am glad Boren is our president too. He is NOT the AD and needs to quit acting like he is.........

Heads need to roll in the compliance department and Joe C. needs to make a public apology to all of the alumni, fans and anyone else who cares. It sickens me when I think of how much more money he has taken from my wallet and then turns around and blacks our eye, again!

What in the heck do you have to say about it Joe C. No stupid open letters either.....call a freakin press conference, answer questions, face the music and lets get this over with. NOW.

[KantoSooner]

One thing that strikes me is that each school seems left to design their own program to ensure compliance and then the NCAA sits in judgement. Why doesn't the NCAA tell the schools how the program is supposed to work rather than playing 'gotcha' after the fact?
Or maybe they do already, in which case, sorry for wasting time. It just seemed like a lot of this debate revolved around whether our program was properly designed and that strikes me as something that should be a non-issue.
Mind you, I would be amused to see what sort of program an NCAA that can't see the conflict of interest involved in letting the AD of a fierce rival sit in judgement would come up with, but at least the onus would be in the right place.

[BASSooner]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. The letter after the Oregon fiasco (in which he used the wrong word... principal)... the lying about your women's basketball coach being offered a job by Texas... the whining about appealing the vacating of wins (uh... Boren, if you feel so strongly, appeal everything!).... it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.

How about... "Hey Boren, you have an AD.. let me do his job!" If you really want to get involved how about, getting involved in completely revamping the Compliance Department and bringing them into the 21st Century and then, focus more on academic programs, scholarly pursuits and fundraising?" In other words, stop acting like a jilted fan and start acting presidential.

Oh Boren,,, one last thing... after your appeal is denied and you are considering litigation, remember... with litigation comes discovery... document production... subpoenas.. depositions... sworn testimony... do you really want someone with those tools to look into this situation?
I STRONGLY disagree with what you have to say. Being a student at the university, he is willing to stand up and defend OU. He is very focused on OU football, I can agree to that, but to say that he isn't a president is complete bull****.

Fans, faculty, students, and along with myself are all blessed to have David L Boren as OUr president.

You seem to be a hater of Boren, since you misspelled "...".

[Vaevictis]

The perception amonst outsiders is that Boren is FAR too concerned with the football program. (...) it looks like he's acting as an athletic director and not the president, and in essence, a CEO of a major university.

Of course, the people who perceive the situation like that are utter idiots. That attitude is like saying that the CEO of Disney is FAR too concerned with Mickey Mouse.

Any CEO who does take a strong personal interest in the affairs of their biggest properties isn't worth his or her salary.

And the football team is OU's biggest single property by far.

[2k2 c5]

Now what? I've got a question. Anyone know the correlation of the dates of payment vs. not working? Is it possible that some of the wins occurred before the violations and thus should not be considered for waiver? Okay, two questions.

[MojoRisen]

I agree, Boren is fine.. The thing is you can't trust the NCAA. Either don't do anything wrong or take great measure to correct it yourself.

[wishbonesooner]

If we can afford the best of everything, the best coach, great stadium, excellent training staff and equipment, can we not afford to staff our compliance dept. with 100-150 people if that's what it takes? To work so hard to erase the conception that we can't win without cheating, and then let such an insignifigant little bastard like Macrae absolutely make us look exactly like the cheaters most people think we are, that's inexcusable.

[MiccoMacey]

To work so hard to erase the conception that we can't win without cheating, and then let such an insignifigant little bastard like Macrae absolutely make us look exactly like the cheaters most people think we are, that's inexcusable.

Wishbone,

You and I ought to team up on McRae old school like, Wolf style. ;)

[goingoneight]

I am glad Boren is our president too. He is NOT the AD and needs to quit acting like he is.........

Heads need to roll in the compliance department and Joe C. needs to make a public apology to all of the alumni, fans and anyone else who cares. It sickens me when I think of how much more money he has taken from my wallet and then turns around and blacks our eye, again!

What in the heck do you have to say about it Joe C. No stupid open letters either.....call a freakin press conference, answer questions, face the music and lets get this over with. NOW.

He did this already... the same day tweedle dee and dumb were kicked off and every time the NCAA deal came up, he gave all the answers he could. 19 year old kids aren't toddlers. They have their own rooms, cars, social lives, etc. I'd love for some of you all to tell me how well you know even the closest person to you. The kids farked up, the school did the right thing, and we still got screwed, because we're Oklahoma... end of story. It's not Joe C.'s fault, or Boren's fault we're not above the "law."

[Soonerfan88]

1. Boren understands how important the success of athletics is to the success of the overall university, especially in fund raising. Also, he is the head of the university and should have a say in all aspects of it including athletics.

2. Boren only stated that Sherri had been contacted about the Texas job, not that Texas offered her the job. It works this way: Texas has someone approach Sherri's agent, who asks Sherri about it. She says no, the agent reports back she isn't interested and Texas moves on without any formal talks with Sherri. So Boren didn't lie when he said Sherri was contacted and Texas didn't lie when they said Gail D. was the only candidate interviewed and they never talked to Sherri.

3. There have been major shake ups in the Compliance Department. The number of staff was expanded and they recently had a job posting for a new Director of Compliance. The summer employment program is now under the control of the Office of the General Counsel instead of Compliance.

4. I completely agree with the charge of "Failure to Monitor" and it is why OU has to vacate the wins of 2005. In the NCAA's view, if the Compliance Department was correctly doing it's job the discrepancies would have been found and the players would have been dealt with before the season was over. Therefore it is the university's fault games were played with ineligible athletes and they should not get credit for the season.

[fwsooner22]

He did this already... the same day tweedle dee and dumb were kicked off and every time the NCAA deal came up, he gave all the answers he could. 19 year old kids aren't toddlers. They have their own rooms, cars, social lives, etc. I'd love for some of you all to tell me how well you know even the closest person to you. The kids farked up, the school did the right thing, and we still got screwed, because we're Oklahoma... end of story. It's not Joe C.'s fault, or Boren's fault we're not above the "law."


Joe C and Boren are the law....How can they be above it?

So you would not know if your roomate had $17,000.00 extra $$$.

That makes no sense at all

[Thousands Strong]

If we can afford the best of everything, the best coach, great stadium, excellent training staff and equipment, can we not afford to staff our compliance dept. with 100-150 people if that's what it takes? To work so hard to erase the conception that we can't win without cheating, and then let such an insignifigant little bastard like Macrae absolutely make us look exactly like the cheaters most people think we are, that's inexcusable.


WBS hit it out of the park.

[rainiersooner]

Heads need to roll in the compliance department and Joe C. needs to make a public apology to all of the alumni, fans and anyone else who cares. It sickens me when I think of how much more money he has taken from my wallet and then turns around and blacks our eye, again!

What in the heck do you have to say about it Joe C. No stupid open letters either.....call a freakin press conference, answer questions, face the music and lets get this over with. NOW.

How did he take money out of your wallet exactly? Come on, that's silly...you don't have to go to the games and frankly not as many people would if Joe C. hadn't helped rebuild the program.

The NCAA's report states that the Compliance Department failed to monitor because there was a delay in obtaining gross earnings reports (in this regard, the allegation should properly be called a failure to monitor in a timely manner, not a failure to monitor). Hindsight is 20/20 and in most businesses you'll have a set of Best Practices you can refer to that is built upon other people's hindsight and errors. I am not convinced you can have instantaneous monitoring. Most Self Regulating Organizations I know have milestones and timelines in place for the regulation such that there is a delay built in. Our monitoring worked...the NCAA should be more specific and articulate the standard in terms of timing before-hand.

[rainiersooner]

Joe C and Boren are the law....How can they be above it?

So you would not know if your roomate had $17,000.00 extra $$$.

That makes no sense at all

Three athletes were overpaid for an aggregate of $17,000. Bomar's take was $7-$8k over a year...and as they used to say in the late nineties, that's not exactly jet money.

[rainiersooner]

WBS hit it out of the park.

I agree to an extent. My problem is that the NCAA should articulate what the rules are. For example, the NASD will tell a broker dealer very specifically the steps it must take to monitor its registered representatives. But is there an NCAA rule that says gross earnings statements must be collected monthly? If not, how can a program determine whether or not it is adequately monitoring in the view of the entity that determines whether it is adequately monitoring? And if other schools monitor once a month, the frequency of their monitoring would only prove itself to be sufficient if an athlete in fact did cheat...so the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of a system - absent an NCAA directive as to standards - is left to the whims of 19 years olds...that is my major problem with the NCAA.

[wishbonesooner]

"Wishbone,

You and I ought to team up on McRae old school like, Wolf style"

Sounds like a plan Micco, we could corner him over at old Jim Thorpe Stadium, the rust poisoning alone would do him in!

[fwsooner22]

How did he take money out of your wallet exactly? Come on, that's silly...you don't have to go to the games and frankly not as many people would if Joe C. hadn't helped rebuild the program.The NCAA's report states that the Compliance Department failed to monitor because there was a delay in obtaining gross earnings reports (in this regard, the allegation should properly be called a failure to monitor in a timely manner, not a failure to monitor). Hindsight is 20/20 and in most businesses you'll have a set of Best Practices you can refer to that is built upon other people's hindsight and errors. I am not convinced you can have instantaneous monitoring. Most Self Regulating Organizations I know have milestones and timelines in place for the regulation such that there is a delay built in. Our monitoring worked...the NCAA should be more specific and articulate the standard in terms of timing before-hand.


There is nothing silly about this sir............Yes, I could choose not to go and not pay the money. Truth is, I don't really mind paying more for what is on the field. However, if you are going to double the amount I pay for tickets and then move me from my Texas location (which I had for 15 years) then run a clean program.

This is not a "hindsight" situation they recommended that these kids work there and then had no regulation or even monoitoring in place. All of this broke on an "A&M" website months before we did anything. The moron at Big Red had wild a$$ parties for years that included football players. There was plenty of warning and we did nothing.

You and many others simply have your head in the wrong place. We are one strike away from something nobody wants to even think about and you say "our monitoring worked". It failed miserably and we are once again the laughing stock of the country.

[fwsooner22]

Three athletes were overpaid for an aggregate of $17,000. Bomar's take was $7-$8k over a year...and as they used to say in the late nineties, that's not exactly jet money.

Huh? It's no big deal and the NCAA should change its rules......is that your take?

Its clear that there a lot of people who just do not understand the severity of our situation.

They don't put you on probation twice in a year because you are doing things "correctly".

[Beef]

I wish Boren wouldn't appeal the vacating of wins. We had ineligible players play an entire season. I don't see a leg to stand on with that one. Just say we ****ed up and tell everyone what we're doing to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[Brons2]

2. Boren only stated that Sherri had been contacted about the Texas job, not that Texas offered her the job. It works this way: Texas has someone approach Sherri's agent, who asks Sherri about it. She says no, the agent reports back she isn't interested and Texas moves on without any formal talks with Sherri. So Boren didn't lie when he said Sherri was contacted and Texas didn't lie when they said Gail D. was the only candidate interviewed and they never talked to Sherri.

Our AD denied anyone from Texas had contacted the women's basketball coach from the University of Oklahoma.

So what we're left with is he said/she said. Seems bizarre that Boren would even bother to talk about it. I think it's beneath a university present to get involved in such matters, but hey, that's my opinion only, and you know what they say about opinions....

[MojoRisen]

I think in any case - if there were a minor violation that comes up in the future from a Law perspective and arguments sake- we should try and gain every inch we can- if we loose the appeal maybe we get a break next time around if there is one. I hope not but for arguments sake we should try and gain ground on this for the future with the NCAA. The football team should not be punished for what Kelvin Sampson did - who the hell is going to monitor the head coach that you trust with out question.

Two me they are really two seperate incidents and all parties involved are gone from the University. What else does the NCAA really need from a disciplining stand point. I can see this if Samspon, Bomar and Quin were still with OU.

[Collier11]

Why dont we do what I heard Pat Jones talking about on the radio this morning, he said after osu got in trouble over HLD they hired someone straight from the NCAA compliance dept. Makes sense, Im sure we could pay them more than the ncaa could?

[Brons2]

Makes sense, Im sure we could pay them more than the ncaa could?

I-R-O-N-Y :D:D

[Collier11]

heh

[fwsooner22]

I wish Boren wouldn't appeal the vacating of wins. We had ineligible players play an entire season. I don't see a leg to stand on with that one. Just say we ****ed up and tell everyone what we're doing to make sure this doesn't happen again.


Exactly, How hard it that? I just must not be very smart!!!

[Collier11]

I could be completely wrong but I think they are appealing both with the hope that one will be overturned...I heard this analogy earlier and it seems to make sense. Its kind of like when you go into a salary negotiation knowing that you are only worth $50k but you ask for $60k with the hope that they might give you $55k. Made sense to me

[goingoneight]

Joe C and Boren are the law....How can they be above it?

So you would not know if your roomate had $17,000.00 extra $$$.

That makes no sense at all

The "law" is you can drop the hammer on whoever you want if you're the NCAA. And unless you're following your roomie around in a spy car, tape-recording and documenting everything he does, you'll never notice the $17,000 divided over more than a year, especially in Bomar's case... where his gf was an NBA cheerleader. Would have seemed to me that his new watches, t-shirts, and shoes were probably all his woman's bank. NTM, he was kind of a spoiled kid anyway. Jerry Bomar made that more than evident.

You cannot possibly ask a coach to do more than what Stoops did. Imagine how a 3,000-yard producing QB affects that 2006 team? 3,000 yards was certainly possible with a more experienced QB at the helm whose OC tooled the O to his own capabilities.

What doesn't make sense is everyone acting all of a sudden like we're the only program in the country busting cheaters since we're the only program winning and getting negative media at the same time. What doesn't make sense is everyone acting like the sky is falling and disrespecting OUr ADs and coaches for being human and doing the right thing.

My $.02-- if this happened at a military school or somewhere else we didn't play or care about... everyone from the media to the fans of college ball would praise, respect and wish they had that kind of disciplinary action.

[goingoneight]

Why dont we do what I heard Pat Jones talking about on the radio this morning, he said after osu got in trouble over HLD they hired someone straight from the NCAA compliance dept. Makes sense, Im sure we could pay them more than the ncaa could?

Then you end up hiring a ****** who takes your money to do the exact same thing JC and Boren did. Methinks the NCAA needs to clarify what exactly is "right" and what is "wrong." Then clarify what happens. Sort of like the game of football itself. If you get a personal foul, you don't wait until the worst possible time to be penalized for it. You know what it is right away, how to deal with it, and how to prevent it from happening again.

But I'm making perfect sense, and the NCAA ain't about making sense, is it?

[MiccoMacey]

"Wishbone,

You and I ought to team up on McRae old school like, Wolf style"

Sounds like a plan Micco, we could corner him over at old Jim Thorpe Stadium, the rust poisoning alone would do him in!

Then you and I can go to Hamburger King on Main Street and talk about the whoopin' he got.

Or Van's. I loves me some Van's Pig Stand. Especially the one on Highland Street.


mmmmm....I'm now officially hungry. ;)

[GrapevineSooner]

I wish Boren wouldn't appeal the vacating of wins. We had ineligible players play an entire season. I don't see a leg to stand on with that one. Just say we ****ed up and tell everyone what we're doing to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Like many others in the media have said...

10 months ago, he asks for the result of the Oregon game to be vacated because a series of monumental f**k ups by the refs. Somewhat understandable, but it would punish Oregon for something they weren't a part of. They took advantage of the breaks, but sometimes that's what sports are about.

Now, vacating wins from the 2005 season would be unfair to the other players that played by the rules?

Can't have it both ways, Boren.

[wishbonesooner]

"Then you end up hiring a ****** who takes your money to do the exact same thing JC and Boren did. Methinks the NCAA needs to clarify what exactly is "right" and what is "wrong." Then clarify what happens."

C'mon man. There is no doubt that players taking money from a booster without working for it is going to get you in trouble. I hate the NCAA as much as anybody, but there's no misunderstanding about that. That's been illegal for years, and every coach and every player knows that.

[hurricane'bone]

The "law" is you can drop the hammer on whoever you want if you're the NCAA. And unless you're following your roomie around in a spy car, tape-recording and documenting everything he does, you'll never notice the $17,000 divided over more than a year, especially in Bomar's case... where his gf was an NBA cheerleader. Would have seemed to me that his new watches, t-shirts, and shoes were probably all his woman's bank. NTM, he was kind of a spoiled kid anyway. Jerry Bomar made that more than evident.


I think you are overestimating how much a NBA Cheerleader makes.

[goingoneight]

"Then you end up hiring a ****** who takes your money to do the exact same thing JC and Boren did. Methinks the NCAA needs to clarify what exactly is "right" and what is "wrong." Then clarify what happens."

C'mon man. There is no doubt that players taking money from a booster without working for it is going to get you in trouble. I hate the NCAA as much as anybody, but there's no misunderstanding about that. That's been illegal for years, and every coach and every player knows that.
I agree, that IS wrong and should get you in trouble. What I meant here is that there's just not really much paying someone else will truly do to stop kids who lie and cheat the system. Truth is, Bomar and Quinn got lazy and ended up leaving a paper trail toward the end of their time here if they went over a year unnoticed. I'm cool with everyone on here, BTW.. just giving my $.02

[Jewstin]

^ that there seems to be the root of the problem.

The NCAA report indicates that had we collected the gross earning statements, our monitoring system would have likely detected the discrepancies between what the athletes reported and what they actually received.

And that's pretty easy to address: You need a process that actively and regularly certifies that an athlete has all of his documentation turned in.

Every month, you have a checklist of documentation that should be received this month AND a list of documentation that may have been previously received (all the way back to when the student first showed up) that is necessary for ongoing compliance.

You have someone verify that the documentation that should have been received this month was received, and if so, you have that person certify it. You also have someone verify that the documentation that should already be in the hands of the department is actually in the hands of the department (ie, in case it got overlooked and/or lost), if you still have everything you used to have, and you have that person certify it.

The coaches should receive a certification on each and every player every month, and if they don't have a certification for that month, the player shouldn't be allowed to play/practice/whatever meets the NCAA requirements.

They need to have this kind of certification process for each and every player, with that player being certified as being in compliance with each and every regulation, and the certifications need to expire regularly and often so that a player has to be re-certified in a timely fashion.

It's going to be labor intensive, and it's going to suck. You can't assume that a player who has been eligible is eligible until you find out otherwise, you have to assume that a player who has been eligible has become ineligible since the last time you checked, and you have to prove each and every time period that the player is in fact still eligible.

If I were the Joe C, I'd go out and engage some ninja accountant who specializes in fraud detection, and have them implement controls.

And frankly, I'd have them do the same to the coaches.

Bingo. That detailed report showed that there was a clear failure to monitor it (in a timely fashion) on our part. Not looking at the statements and not realizing large discrepancies between this year and the previous year's reports is a major breakdown of the auditing system. That's one of the first things you look at.

This sucks, but we did screw up on this one. We did the right thing the following year, but our system failed for 2005.

[rainiersooner]

Huh? It's no big deal and the NCAA should change its rules......is that your take?

Steady on there. You said that Bomar's roommate (or Quinn's) should have noticed the extra $17k and I was merely opinining that this was an incorrect assumption on your part because (1) none of the players individually took an extra $17k and (2) the $8k extra that Bomar took spread over a twelve month period was not enough money to raise eyebrows as to why he was living in the King Farouk like opulence you seem to suggest that money can buy you. That's all.

Was it wrong to take the money? Of course, no one was disputing that. Could the University have done more to have discovered the transgression earlier than it did? That is the debate we are having and continue to doubt that there was.

[Collier11]

I agree, that IS wrong and should get you in trouble. What I meant here is that there's just not really much paying someone else will truly do to stop kids who lie and cheat the system. Truth is, Bomar and Quinn got lazy and ended up leaving a paper trail toward the end of their time here if they went over a year unnoticed. I'm cool with everyone on here, BTW.. just giving my $.02


you hate everyone and you are a jerk! Go root for someone else cus we dont want ya over here!




;) ;) ;) ;)

[rainiersooner]

:pop:
^ that there seems to be the root of the problem.

The NCAA report indicates that had we collected the gross earning statements, our monitoring system would have likely detected the discrepancies between what the athletes reported and what they actually received.

And that's pretty easy to address: You need a process that actively and regularly certifies that an athlete has all of his documentation turned in.

Every month, you have a checklist of documentation that should be received this month AND a list of documentation that may have been previously received (all the way back to when the student first showed up) that is necessary for ongoing compliance.

You have someone verify that the documentation that should have been received this month was received, and if so, you have that person certify it. You also have someone verify that the documentation that should already be in the hands of the department is actually in the hands of the department (ie, in case it got overlooked and/or lost), if you still have everything you used to have, and you have that person certify it.

The coaches should receive a certification on each and every player every month, and if they don't have a certification for that month, the player shouldn't be allowed to play/practice/whatever meets the NCAA requirements.

They need to have this kind of certification process for each and every player, with that player being certified as being in compliance with each and every regulation, and the certifications need to expire regularly and often so that a player has to be re-certified in a timely fashion.

It's going to be labor intensive, and it's going to suck. You can't assume that a player who has been eligible is eligible until you find out otherwise, you have to assume that a player who has been eligible has become ineligible since the last time you checked, and you have to prove each and every time period that the player is in fact still eligible.

If I were the Joe C, I'd go out and engage some ninja accountant who specializes in fraud detection, and have them implement controls.

And frankly, I'd have them do the same to the coaches.

I think that's a fine and systematic approach that is very well thought out. My problem is that I am not sure that the NCAA has ever articulated its system requirements. Because it doesn't, failure to monitor becomes a subjective evaluation. On the other hand, if the NCAA did in fact promulgate rules that required what Vaevictis is suggesting, then a school an clearly know what it should do and there can be no debate as to what constitutes a failure to monitor. The absence of objective standards and criteria is what has left most college football fans with zero confidence in the NCAA.

[wishbonesooner]

Does anybody think there will ever come a day when someone, some school like OU or USC, somebody big time, challenges the NCAA in court? When an industry as big as college football, with the millions and millions of dollars it generates, would some kind of antitrust decision or something ever bring them down?

[Boffingham]

it is just like George Bush. If he wasn't so freakin' awesome, people wouldn't care what he does.

[Collier11]

lets keep the political statements in the south oval, how bout it!

[rainiersooner]

Does anybody think there will ever come a day when someone, some school like OU or USC, somebody big time, challenges the NCAA in court? When an industry as big as college football, with the millions and millions of dollars it generates, would some kind of antitrust decision or something ever bring them down?

Funnily enough, someone already did sue the NCAA...OU back in 1984...and OU won. The reason there is so much college football on tv today is OU (and I believe Georgia and several other schools joined) challenged the NCAA's monopoly on the broadcast of tv rights - back then the NCAA had contracts with ABC and CBS to broadcast a limited number of live games. OU and several other schools that were members of the College Football Association (a group that represented major colleges' interest with respect to the NCAA) petitioned to extend broadcasts to NBC and the NCAA refused, threatening to punish any school that entered into a contract with NBC. So OU and the other schools sued the NCAA. Eventually it was heard by the US Supreme Court, which held for OU because it found that the NCAA's actions constituted a restraint on trade and other anti-trust violations.

Here's a link to the decision:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=468&invol=85

I'm sure what happened 20 years ago has nothing to do with how they've treated us since though. :pop:

[fwsooner22]

Steady on there. You said that Bomar's roommate (or Quinn's) should have noticed the extra $17k and I was merely opinining that this was an incorrect assumption on your part because (1) none of the players individually took an extra $17k and (2) the $8k extra that Bomar took spread over a twelve month period was not enough money to raise eyebrows as to why he was living in the King Farouk like opulence you seem to suggest that money can buy you. That's all.

Was it wrong to take the money? Of course, no one was disputing that. Could the University have done more to have discovered the transgression earlier than it did? That is the debate we are having and continue to doubt that there was.


I give up........your backpedal makes me dizzy and its Friday.........

Make sure that's clean sand you are using. :)

[BASSooner]

correct.


In fact I believe the court case was called University of Oklahoma and Georgia vs NCAA

[rainiersooner]

I give up........your backpedal makes me dizzy and its Friday.........

Make sure that's clean sand you are using. :)

All good, enjoy your weekend.

[wishbonesooner]

I remember that lawsuit from when it happened. I also remember that everyone that participated in it was put on probation in subsequent years.
My question was more about somebody challenging the NCAA's right to arbitrarily sanction college programs, many times seemingly without due process or any consistent policies toward punishment. I think it will happen someday, it'll take some school with huge balls to stand up to the NCAA.

[goingoneight]

it is just like George Bush. If he wasn't so freakin' awesome, people wouldn't care what he does.
I see lots of anonymous green, grey and red for this one. :O

[TexasLidig8r]

I remember that lawsuit from when it happened. I also remember that everyone that participated in it was put on probation in subsequent years.
My question was more about somebody challenging the NCAA's right to arbitrarily sanction college programs, many times seemingly without due process or any consistent policies toward punishment. I think it will happen someday, it'll take some school with huge balls to stand up to the NCAA.

Actually, policies and procedures are in place and schools are entitled to a hearing and an appeal. Then, there is the litigation process. As I questioned before... do you REALLY want the NCAA, with the discovery afforded in federal court, i.e., document production, subpoenas, sworn testimony from parties and witnesses, presumptions that if documents are destroyed at a time when litigation can be reasonably expected, there is a presumption the documents or evidence is contrary to your position.. are all available.

Do you really want McRae put under oath and be forced to testify? Do you really want to know what specific payroll records were destroyed?

You go picking a fight in court, you better be prepared for the consequences of what may be found. Which is also why this "appeal" will never go to court. If in a lawsuit, additional information is found (which the NCAA could not uncover due to no subpoena power) in the underlying investigation, then you would be looking at SEVERE sanctions.

This little love tap on the wrist was merely meant as a message to OU alums, fans and supporters... and not much more.

[SoonerMom2]

I have read everyone's comments and only a few have it right. There are three people at fault here and that is Bomar and Quinn and the scumbag Car dealer who knew they were being paid for not working. They are not little kids but adults and all knew it was against the rules. If someone wants to hide something, it is almost impossible to discover unless they get sloppy which they did.

OU has had its 2005 season vacated -- is the NCAA going to refund the price of our tickets since they vacated the season?

Why don't some of you that know it all try to follow 18-19's around town and see what they do? No university has that kind of manpower. People are so quick to criticize the university instead of lay the blame where it belongs which is at the feet of the three people that caused the problem.

Why didn't the NCAA vacate Ohio State's first National Championship when it was discovered that Clarerett never went to class and so they gave him an oral exam which was fudged according to other professors? Smith gets paid by a booster and he is a hero at Ohio State and misses one game. We all know about Reggie Bush and the rest at USC or how about all the Texas players being arrested -- why aren't those schools being charged with failure to monitor?

Bad precedent when a school selfs report that they get this kind of a penalty. Why bother to self report? NCAA in their zeal to get OU will cause every other school to clam up when they come calling and who can blame them.

[Vaevictis]

If someone wants to hide something, it is almost impossible to discover unless they get sloppy which they did.

Of course, if you read the report, you'll find that we had procedures on the books that would have caught what was going on, we just failed to actually execute them.

Bomar, McRae, etc are responsible for their own actions, yes, that's true. And they're the scumbags in this equation.

But our compliance department is responsible for failing to do what they were supposed to have done also. Sorry, but the compliance department screwed up. There's no two ways about it. They had procedures in place, they just failed to properly execute them. The bad news is that it cost us this time; the good news is that if they're honest with themselves about there having been a problem (unlike a lot of the fans, it seems), then the problem is fixable.

[SoonerMom2]

How do you catch something when people are intentionally setting out to cheat? I am not saying the compliance department was without fault, but the ultimate blame goes to those involved in cheating. I just think the University is being punished harshly for the 2005 season wins being vacated when Quinn and Bomar had to only sit out a year.

Why would any team self report after this? Pull a USC and clam up. I don't have a problem with losing two scholarships and not having a coach recruit, but I do have a problem with Bomar and Quinn being on scholarship anywhere. They should have to pay his own way to get their education a -- be walk-ons but not on scholarship (if they are).

Think the NCAA needs harsher penalities on players that did the deed instead of penalizing players that did nothing wrong.

As for USC and Reggie Bush, I will believe it when I am told personally that USC is on probation and their wins vacated and then I will have to see it in black and white and I still won't believe it until I see it many times. NCAA, IMO, has certain schools that they favor. Nothing was done when it was discovered that Clarette didn't go to class and had an oral exam that some OSU professors said was never given.

Grew up and lived in Ohio and still have a lot of friends there and it is common knowledge if you play football at OSU, attending class is the least of your worries. We all knew kids that barely went to class and made B's or C's at Ohio State.

[Beef]

Bad precedent when a school selfs report that they get this kind of a penalty. Why bother to self report? NCAA in their zeal to get OU will cause every other school to clam up when they come calling and who can blame them.
It's a bad precedent when a mom thinks that not doing the right thing is the right thing to do. I hope you don't raise your kids this way. Or after reading a bunch of people saying we shouldn't have self-reported, maybe I was raised the wrong way for thinking we did the right thing.

We received a very light sentence for MAJOR infractions because we self-reported and co-operated. Yes, players involved should bear more responsibility for their actions, but we recruited them. We are supposed to make sure they understand the rules and abide by them. Right or wrong, that's the way it is and we ****ed up. Just like the school is ultimately responsible for :kelvin: 's phone calls.

I'm glad OU did the right thing and turned itself in and co-operated. I would be extremely embarrassed if we were hiding things. We need to start running a tighter ship in all of our sports because it's the right thing to do until the NCAA changes it's rules. What goes on at other schools is irrelevant.

:pop:

[Vaevictis]

I think that's a fine and systematic approach that is very well thought out.

It's probably insufficient, hence my comment that we should hire someone who specializes in fraud detection.


My problem is that I am not sure that the NCAA has ever articulated its system requirements. Because it doesn't, failure to monitor becomes a subjective evaluation. On the other hand, if the NCAA did in fact promulgate rules that required what Vaevictis is suggesting, then a school an clearly know what it should do and there can be no debate as to what constitutes a failure to monitor. The absence of objective standards and criteria is what has left most college football fans with zero confidence in the NCAA.

The lack of clearly articulated standards on the part of the NCAA is a problem.

However, we got ourselves into trouble by having a procedure in place and failing to follow it. Even if the NCAA didn't identify that institutions should collect gross earnings statements, we did. And because we did, and because we had a procedure for doing so, it became incumbent upon us to do so.

Our compliance department decided that the NCAA requirement to monitor included collection of gross earnings statements, and failed to do so. By our own standards, we exhibited a "failure to monitor." We really have very little (or no) room to complain, because it was our own standards that were applied to us, and our own standards found us lacking.

[Soonerman08]

I have read way too many "reflex responses" and "venting of anger", including my own.

The truth is this "thing" is very serious. We were just in front of the NCAA for Kelvin Sampson's disregard for the rules, we have a gymnastics team that had to be disciplined, our baseball team had problems with scholarship distribution and now THIS.

I am old enough to remember the mid 70's and every problem since then. I am tired of this stuff. It is embarrassing. I am tired to a point that I want answers. I want Joe C. (and anyone else) to provide us with what he is going to do about this. I have seen constant efforts to take more of my money every season. Way too much time is spent on getting more and more money for more and more expansion, facilities, etc. That's fine, but it is clear we are putting way too much time and effort in one area and ignoring other areas. That is usually the death march for a "normal" business.

For all the good that has happened during the last decade, it can all be erased with one more idioitic move.

"You can't monitor 85 kids all the time?" Really? How does everyone else do it? Find out how "everyone else does it". Make some changes now!

I am not an expert on any of this, I am just a tired, old, season ticket holder but I do know this, whoever is in charge of the compliance office (if that is Joe C., goodbye) and everyone who has been hired by that person should be let go.....today.

I am as upset as the rest of you but I want answers this time.


You're a fool for thinking that other schools monitor their athletes. There isn't a school out there that monitors their athletes to the bull**** extent the NCAA thinks they should. The other schools find out about their student athlete misdoings but they don't punish them, or their form of punishment is a suspension for a game or two. The NCAA won't do anything to them because they are not OU or Alabama for that matter. This Reggie Bush case is a clearcut example. USC should be slapped with a failure to monitor case. USC fans are claiming there is no way that the school could have possibly known, but when a student athlete's family moves into $700k house from two mediocre paying jobs then there is something fishy going on. All this talk of them having the scouts on the sidelines is enough to slap them with sanctions right there. The case of Bomar and Quinn is just annoying with the whole "failure to monitor" I mean honestly to sit there and say that is just a total crock. How in the hell can you monitor every single player, not to mention how are you supposed to know whether or not they have or have no worked. By the way when is the NCAA going to realize that these student athletes are adults and they need to take some responsibility for their actions.

[Vaevictis]

Read. The. Report.

We had a procedure to monitor gross earnings reports and because of internal miscommunication, it didn't happen. There are no facts in dispute with respect to those errors. We admitted to making them. That alone is sufficient for a "failure to monitor" charge to stick.

[Scott D]

You're a fool for thinking that other schools monitor their athletes. There isn't a school out there that monitors their athletes to the bull**** extent the NCAA thinks they should. The other schools find out about their student athlete misdoings but they don't punish them, or their form of punishment is a suspension for a game or two. The NCAA won't do anything to them because they are not OU or Alabama for that matter. This Reggie Bush case is a clearcut example. USC should be slapped with a failure to monitor case. USC fans are claiming there is no way that the school could have possibly known, but when a student athlete's family moves into $700k house from two mediocre paying jobs then there is something fishy going on. All this talk of them having the scouts on the sidelines is enough to slap them with sanctions right there. The case of Bomar and Quinn is just annoying with the whole "failure to monitor" I mean honestly to sit there and say that is just a total crock. How in the hell can you monitor every single player, not to mention how are you supposed to know whether or not they have or have no worked. By the way when is the NCAA going to realize that these student athletes are adults and they need to take some responsibility for their actions.

I love how everyone seems to think that the NCAA has some great love for a school it's put on probation 5 times (USC), and whom has a past history of obstructing NCAA investigations (once again USC). Some of you people can't see the tree in the forest because you're too busy being either Chicken Little, or an Ostrich.

[Scott D]

How do you catch something when people are intentionally setting out to cheat? I am not saying the compliance department was without fault, but the ultimate blame goes to those involved in cheating. I just think the University is being punished harshly for the 2005 season wins being vacated when Quinn and Bomar had to only sit out a year.

Why would any team self report after this? Pull a USC and clam up. I don't have a problem with losing two scholarships and not having a coach recruit, but I do have a problem with Bomar and Quinn being on scholarship anywhere. They should have to pay his own way to get their education a -- be walk-ons but not on scholarship (if they are).

Think the NCAA needs harsher penalities on players that did the deed instead of penalizing players that did nothing wrong.

As for USC and Reggie Bush, I will believe it when I am told personally that USC is on probation and their wins vacated and then I will have to see it in black and white and I still won't believe it until I see it many times. NCAA, IMO, has certain schools that they favor. Nothing was done when it was discovered that Clarette didn't go to class and had an oral exam that some OSU professors said was never given.

Grew up and lived in Ohio and still have a lot of friends there and it is common knowledge if you play football at OSU, attending class is the least of your worries. We all knew kids that barely went to class and made B's or C's at Ohio State.

Lets look at USC's LAST probation in 2001.


Institution: University of Southern California
Date: 23-AUG-01

Facts Summary: Unethical conduct; academic fraud; provision of false and misleading information; violation of academic eligibility requirements; extra benefits and lack of monitoring.

Your desire to not self report which you apparently think we should follow USC in would lead to the additional charges in bold being tacked on to us. I'm tired of people thinking for some godforsaken reason that we apparently would have gotten a lighter sentence from the NCAA had we chosen not to self report this matter.

But yes, you like everyone else in the world not partisan with USC is waiting to see what kind of hammer the NCAA will hit them with once the Federal Government is done investigating the whole Bush thing and let the NCAA have some of the evidence they have in their possession.

I don't know about most of the people who have been whining and moaning about the additional penalties that the NCAA gave us, but I'm pretty sure we'll see some of those bolded things end up attached to USC again.

[Scott D]

Also, quite truthfully I agree with Pat Jones. It might be a very good idea for OU to hire someone from the NCAA Compliance Dept. to run the Compliance Dept. for the University.

[SoonerMom2]

I was being facitious but that is how some schools will look at what happened. I think we should have turned ourselves in because that is the right thing to do, but what does it gain a school to self report and take action before the NCAA rules if they (NCAA) are going to turn around and increase the penalty by wiping out an entire season of wins What is so hard to understand about that because schools are going to ask the same question. Is the NCAA looking into all the arrest of TX Football players? What has Mack Brown reported about his program and player's arrested or are arrest not considered a failure of their compliance department?

I don't mind the probation or loss of scholarships but I do object to a season being wiped off the books for wins -- why not wipe everything off the books including losses? How many schools have had a season of wins wiped out?

[101sooner]

Read. The. Report.

We had a procedure to monitor gross earnings reports and because of internal miscommunication, it didn't happen. There are no facts in dispute with respect to those errors. We admitted to making them. That alone is sufficient for a "failure to monitor" charge to stick.


Absolutely correct. The charges should stick.

Two starters and a walk-on conspired to cheat. OU's compliance office made a paperwork error during the monitoring process.

Here's my problem with the deal::

IMHO, the punishment is WAY disproportionate to the crime. Technically it was "failure to monitor". In reality it was "failing to follow a procedure (OU's self imposed procedure, not the NCAA's)while monitoring." OU was monitoring, but the documents they collected were being falsified and they made a paperwork mistake.

I just felt all along that a letter of reprimand and maybe 1 year probation would be appropriate.

[Scott D]

I don't mind the probation or loss of scholarships but I do object to a season being wiped off the books for wins -- why not wipe everything off the books including losses? How many schools have had a season of wins wiped out?

Michigan Basketball had multiple seasons of wins wiped out. These are the penalties they received in 2003.


In determining the appropriate penalties to impose, the committee considered these self-imposed penalties and corrective actions by the university:

1. The men's basketball team shall not be eligible for participation in the 2003 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Tournament, or the 2003 National Invitation Tournament.
2. The university forfeited all "wins" by the men's basketball team for any game in which the former men's basketball student-athletes participated while ineligible. (This includes the 1992 Final Four competition, the entire 1992-93 season, and the entire 1995-96 through 1998-99 seasons including postseason play.)
3. The university has vacated all records of its appearances in NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Tournaments and the National Invitational Tournament (NIT) when the former men's basketball student-athletes were participants while ineligible. Further, the university shall return all team awards for its participation in these events and has deleted and/or removed references to those teams' participation that might have appeared on campus or in university publications. (This includes NCAA tournament appearances in 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1998 and the 1997 NIT championship.)
4. The university shall return to the NCAA 90 percent of the moneys it received (through Big Ten distributions) for the university's appearances in NCAA postseason championship competition while ineligible players participated.
5. The university placed its men's basketball program on institutional probation for a period of two years. As a condition of this probation, reports as directed by the president shall be submitted and compliance-related activities shall be undertaken in further effort to ensure strict compliance with NCAA and Big Ten rules and regulations. Specifically required shall be an annual compliance audit of key compliance areas within the athletics department.

[Scott D]

Absolutely correct. The charges should stick.

Two starters and a walk-on conspired to cheat. OU's compliance office made a paperwork error during the monitoring process.

Here's my problem with the deal::

IMHO, the punishment is WAY disproportionate to the crime. Technically it was "failure to monitor". In reality it was "failing to follow a procedure (OU's self imposed procedure, not the NCAA's)while monitoring." OU was monitoring, but the documents they collected were being falsified and they made a paperwork mistake.

I just felt all along that a letter of reprimand and maybe 1 year probation would be appropriate.

Technically based upon what OU told the NCAA it was "failure to monitor" due to them overhauling the compliance department and shifting responsibilities from one section of the athletic department to another during the time period this took place. The transition period is the linchpin here that can not be contested in any way.

[Ash]

Also, quite truthfully I agree with Pat Jones. It might be a very good idea for OU to hire someone from the NCAA Compliance Dept. to run the Compliance Dept. for the University.

That probably is good advice. It takes a crook to catch one.

It's kinda funny taking advice on compliance from Pat Jones...

[jrsooner]

Read. The. Report.Okay, I read the report a few times to digest it and noticed a few things…


Nevertheless, once the information was uncovered, the committee acknowledges that the institution took swift action in disciplining the offending student-athletes, including dismissing two of them from the football team. The committee notes that the institution's head football coach, with the full support of the institution's president, dismissed his starting quarterback. So they recognize the fact that we did have a secondary control in place that caught it, and we took “swift” action on it. My main point in all of this is that the "detective control" caught it, and we took action on it. That is not "failure to monitor", detective controls are set to catch those items that don't get caught by your other controls.


Although this case centered on a few violations involving three student-athletes, the committee finds this case to be significant and serious for several reasons. …Finally, the institution appeared before the committee only one year earlier in a case where the committee found that the institution failed to monitor the men's basketball staff's telephone contacts with prospective student-athletes. My first question to the committee would be did OU put in additional controls to make the deficiency pass another inspection? My guess would be yes, considering they have a software program now to help corrolate all the phone calls. It won’t catch all, but these deficiency will never be able to be 100% monitored. So that being the case it should not have been brought up or should mentioned that OU has resolved the deficiency that was discovered in the last “audit” and what exactly OU did to plug that gap.


The institution reported that it was supposed to review the information provided in the gross earning statements for consistency with the information provided by student-athletes on compliance forms, including the student-athlete summer employment forms, and to help it monitor potential issues such as excessive earnings. In fact, the review of these statements did not occur until a year later, as part of the investigation into the impermissible employment at the dealership. Had the gross earning statements been collected and reviewed immediately following the summer of 2005, the inconsistencies between the information submitted on the student-athlete summer employment forms and the gross earning statements would have been apparent for the three football student-athletes identified in Finding B-1.


An institution's affirmative responsibility to monitor its athletics programs is set forth in the NCAA's Constitution, Article 2, Principles for Conduct of Intercollegiate Athletics, Principle 2.8, THE PRINCIPLE OF RULES COMPLIANCE; 2.8.1, Responsibility of Institution. It states, in relevant part:
Each institution shall comply with all applicable rules and regulations of the Association in the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics programs. It shall monitor its programs to assure compliance and to identify and report to the Association instances in which compliance has not been achieved?
So therefore if the Compliance Department notified the NCAA that they were running behind then everything would be okay to their rules? :)


The committee concedes that institutions cannot reasonably contact all potential employers of student-athletes to determine whether student-athletes are employed. However, given the dealership's unique status, some level of communication between the institution and the dealership was necessary to ensure that violations did not occur. This is even more imperative given that student-athlete 2 reported on his 2005 student-athlete summer employment form that he worked during the spring of 2005 at the dealership. Translation – yeah, we know you can’t monitor every employer, but this was a “special” employer. Get real, if I saw that in any deficiency from any SOX audit I survived, I would have laughed myself to death (after some unprofessional descriptions of their intelligence). This is basically saying, yes we know you can’t do it, but we are going to bust you anyways, and get the right verbiage for it. When you start assigning "special" areas, you usually have to lessen your attention in other areas. This is a fact for business... Compliancy Departments are always understaffed and overworked, so you figure out the risk and move forward.


In the final analysis, the committee agreed with the institution's president and concluded that mistakes were made. There were monitoring systems in place, but they failed. The failure was not, as the institution suggests, due solely to the unethical conduct of three student-athletes and an athletics representative, but also to inadequacies in the institution's procedures. These mistakes in monitoring, when taken in total, and in consideration of the magnitude of the violations, led the committee to conclude that a finding of a failure to monitor is warranted. I love the fact that they left off a key part of the paragraph right above it in their ruling “(T)here is no doubt a mistake took place. That is what we have referred to as this transition period. The old academic advising office, the compliance (office) thought for sure they were still doing it that one summer. The new group, they said they thought the new group was doing it. It was a breakdown. There is no doubt about it. It was a mistake. I would call that not a failure to monitor, but a mistake in monitoring. It just happened. It was a mistake.”. Basically saying yes we slapped you that year, so you put in extra controls and did a shakeup on the Compliancy Department where the information slipped by the new group.

I’d say at the most that this was a minor deficiency, since the controls were in place but not followed religiously due to a changing of the guard in the Compliancy department. Most company’s would get a period of time to show that they have executed their corrective actions, and then pass the followup audit. What it all comes down to is the NCAA wanted our heads in a basket, and nothing that the University did or could have done would have changed it. We’ve been on the short stick in the past few years, so whether we like it or not – we got to live with it. I’m not saying that mistakes was not made, but after reading the whole report, I definitely can tell a verbiage job to make it sound one way to bring about a suitable conclusion to their desires. That’s in the past now, we all know the NCAA compliancy department is a joke and biased.

So in conclusion we are Sooners, we’re used to getting a bum deal, and then sticking it to the “bum dealers” the next chance we get. So all we have to do is win the Big 12 and our Bowl Game, hold the trophies high in the air, and yell “NCAA – Stick it! Because we are Sooners and we play for championships no matter what you throw at us!”

[101sooner]

Technically based upon what OU told the NCAA it was "failure to monitor" due to them overhauling the compliance department and shifting responsibilities from one section of the athletic department to another during the time period this took place. The transition period is the linchpin here that can not be contested in any way.


Absolutely.

When coupled with the actual improper benefits received and the repeat violator status that the basketball/gymnastics situation put us in, does this justify the penalties imposed when taking in to consideration OU's self-imposed penalties? Keep in mind, the NCAA has already punished Bomar/Quinn by making them pay the money back (charity), on top of losing a year of eligibility.


I think it's too harsh. Although the practical implications of vacating wins are trivial to some, I believe that it is very painful to dozens of honest, hard-working dedicated student athletes and coaches.

IMHO, I don't think it's a fair punishment.

[Vaevictis]

Here's my problem with the deal::

IMHO, the punishment is WAY disproportionate to the crime. Technically it was "failure to monitor". In reality it was "failing to follow a procedure (OU's self imposed procedure, not the NCAA's)while monitoring." OU was monitoring, but the documents they collected were being falsified and they made a paperwork mistake.

I just felt all along that a letter of reprimand and maybe 1 year probation would be appropriate.

I don't disagree. I think that the punishment was harsher than is warranted for what amounts to an honest error that, once OU became aware of it, OU acted swiftly to rectify.

I just have an issue with all the people acting like we're 100% innocent parties in this. Our compliance department didn't deliberately do anything wrong, but it dropped the ball and opened the door for the NCAA to come in and give us a smack. To pretend otherwise is to open the door to it happening again.

[jrsooner]

I just have an issue with all the people acting like we're 100% innocent parties in this. Our compliance department didn't deliberately do anything wrong, but it dropped the ball and opened the door for the NCAA to come in and give us a smack. To pretend otherwise is to open the door to it happening again.This is my main problem with alot of the posts. The first thing they do is slam the compliance department. My problem with the whole matter is that the controls did work, but the main emphasis is only on the initial controls instead of the whole compliancy arena. Sure I wish they'd pony up the money for a bigger compliancy department, but even in the "business" world that department is usually under-resourced, so I'm not holding my breath. I'm betting the compliancy office is already working on gap control, and also putting together a defense for the appeal.

[Vaevictis]

Well, my intent is not to slam the compliance department. I'm just hearing a lot of people say that we were hoodwinked through no fault of our own, that the compliance department did nothing wrong, etc. And that's not right.

The compliance department made some errors, and those errors gave the NCAA an excuse to come in and smack us one. And it being the NCAA, they're always looking for an excuse. I guess that's really all I'm saying.

[Scott D]

This is my main problem with alot of the posts. The first thing they do is slam the compliance department. My problem with the whole matter is that the controls did work, but the main emphasis is only on the initial controls instead of the whole compliancy arena. Sure I wish they'd pony up the money for a bigger compliancy department, but even in the "business" world that department is usually under-resourced, so I'm not holding my breath. I'm betting the compliancy office is already working on gap control, and also putting together a defense for the appeal.

Matters not addressed.

1. The University and the NCAA were informed of these violations "At The Same Time" by this anonymous emailing source....the University began it's investigation, (mind you an investigation that didn't find anything until they knew what to look for, otherwise this information wouldn't have had to be anonymously emailed to the University). The NCAA was aware of the violations apparently more than 4 months before the University self reported the violations.

2. The Compliance Dept. was in a transition period (once again stated by the University to the NCAA as a partial excuse as to how this matter wasn't caught earlier). The University explanation makes it seem that nobody in the Compliance Dept in that period of time knew their arse from a hole in the ground regarding following proper procedures with regards to student athletes and employment. Now as you said, Compliance Depts are probably overworked, and understaffed. However, there's really not any excuse for ours to have done a "I've got it, you take it" type of mistake.

Anyhow, if this thread is supposed to be about having answers, and not continuing to whine and moan about how the big bad ncaa made sure "they showed them pesky sooners good". The obvious answers are that Joe C. should be getting the best compliance person the NCAA has on the payroll to oversee the OU Compliance Dept. There should obviously be a staff in place just to deal with player employment, there should also be better safeguards put into place to prevent a situation like this from happening.

[Scott D]

Absolutely.

When coupled with the actual improper benefits received and the repeat violator status that the basketball/gymnastics situation put us in, does this justify the penalties imposed when taking in to consideration OU's self-imposed penalties? Keep in mind, the NCAA has already punished Bomar/Quinn by making them pay the money back (charity), on top of losing a year of eligibility.


I think it's too harsh. Although the practical implications of vacating wins are trivial to some, I believe that it is very painful to dozens of honest, hard-working dedicated student athletes and coaches.

IMHO, I don't think it's a fair punishment.

As it was put earlier, those players know they won those games, and despite the "Vacating" of them the NCAA can't take that away from the players or coaches. Look back at that quote of the Michigan Basketball punishment. Considering we were coming off of a hearing just a year earlier for the Basketball matter, we could have been looking at even harsher penalties. They would have even been harsher than that had we not "self reported". Those two factors seem to get over a lot of people's heads.

If the NCAA were really out to screw the University like so many on this forum seem to be thinking (mainly because they aren't thinking rationally). There would have been a postseason ban thrown in at minimum. So yes, 'vacating' wins is trivial compared to say 1 year no TV, 2 years no postseason and potentially having to pay the conference 70-90% of postseason earnings in 2005/06 from our bowl payout for the transgression.

[101sooner]

Scott,

Simply put, I believe that the sanctions are too harsh.

I don't believe that the NCAA was out to screw OU.

I don't believe that vacating victories is trivial.

[jrsooner]

1. The University and the NCAA were informed of these violations "At The Same Time" by this anonymous emailing source....the University began it's investigation, (mind you an investigation that didn't find anything until they knew what to look for, otherwise this information wouldn't have had to be anonymously emailed to the University). The NCAA was aware of the violations apparently more than 4 months before the University self reported the violations.Both institutions received the email at the same time per the report from the NCAA. OU then followed procedures and researched the matter (a point that the NCAA had no problems with per the report). After researching the matter and taking action, they then declared a "tip" as valid and reported to the NCAA that the action was indeed an accurate "tip".

You don't report a "tip" as vailid until it is confirmed, that is where the self reporting comes in. Check out the chronology, OU was in the drivers seat keeping the NCAA in the loop until it was proven valid and Stoops kicked them off the team.

The NCAA doesn't have the staff to investigate every little email that comes in anonymously, if so then every college would have their "enforcement team" on campus.

What probably went down was they got the emails, OU started the investigations. After the NCAA receives 6 more emails on it they called OU, and OU responded "yes, we know - we're looking into it, and here's the data so far". NCAA was happy and went home. May's conversation with OU was more of a "checkin" to see if they were on it, and then the call in August was the "self-reporting" of the findings. NCAA didn't find out any of this,they were following OU's lead up until August, and that is when the enforcement group got actively involved. So yes, it was self reporting, NCAA didn't do anything during those months, and OU reported all the initial findings to them.

Now there is no way I'd want an NCAA "enforcer" at OU. Most "external" auditors I have known are usually "box checkers", and don't know most of the ins and outs of the jobs that they are reporting on. Sure they may be good at asking their "prompted questions", but get them in a discussion on how to exactly monitor situations that they asking about gets nowhere. I'd rather see OU hire an additional staffer that knows Norman, OK and surrounding states "hangouts" of athletes, and the "grunt" knowledge of the industry. That person would do better than an NCAA "enforcer".

[Vaevictis]

You might hire someone from within the NCAA simply for their connections. If you hired exactly the right person, those connections could be invaluable in terms of arranging for favorable responses from the NCAA once the NCAA gets involved.

[goingoneight]

Die, thread... DIE!!! :mad:

[KantoSooner]

If I understand correctly from ScottD and jrsooner's posts, the NCAA and OU were notified at the same time. The NCAA chose to remain silent for months, I guess wanting to see whether OU would act or try to cover things up. OU had acted and confirmed such at the earliest time reasonable. Right?

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think that police departments would be allowed to remain silent about a committed crime while waiting to see if the perp would turn themselves in.

There is something very wrong with the way the NCAA system works. It's very much a 'gotcha' game.

[goingoneight]

The NCAA doesn't accept anonymous tips through emails. Compliance staffs or some of their own investigative units report incidents "officially." Believe me, if the NCAA responded to everyone pointing fingers, there would be a lot around rivalries. Calls from Ann Arbor about something Todd Boeckman "supposedly" did, emails from Austin about dirty ol' Oklahoma, etc...

9/10, the compliance staffs uncover problems and the university reports what is/was done about it. But not everyone gets hammered like we do for jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk and is under the watchful eye of probation.

[Scott D]

Both institutions received the email at the same time per the report from the NCAA. OU then followed procedures and researched the matter (a point that the NCAA had no problems with per the report). After researching the matter and taking action, they then declared a "tip" as valid and reported to the NCAA that the action was indeed an accurate "tip".

You don't report a "tip" as vailid until it is confirmed, that is where the self reporting comes in. Check out the chronology, OU was in the drivers seat keeping the NCAA in the loop until it was proven valid and Stoops kicked them off the team.

The NCAA doesn't have the staff to investigate every little email that comes in anonymously, if so then every college would have their "enforcement team" on campus.

What probably went down was they got the emails, OU started the investigations. After the NCAA receives 6 more emails on it they called OU, and OU responded "yes, we know - we're looking into it, and here's the data so far". NCAA was happy and went home. May's conversation with OU was more of a "checkin" to see if they were on it, and then the call in August was the "self-reporting" of the findings. NCAA didn't find out any of this,they were following OU's lead up until August, and that is when the enforcement group got actively involved. So yes, it was self reporting, NCAA didn't do anything during those months, and OU reported all the initial findings to them.

Now there is no way I'd want an NCAA "enforcer" at OU. Most "external" auditors I have known are usually "box checkers", and don't know most of the ins and outs of the jobs that they are reporting on. Sure they may be good at asking their "prompted questions", but get them in a discussion on how to exactly monitor situations that they asking about gets nowhere. I'd rather see OU hire an additional staffer that knows Norman, OK and surrounding states "hangouts" of athletes, and the "grunt" knowledge of the industry. That person would do better than an NCAA "enforcer".

that's based on the assumption that the NCAA did nothing but sat on it's hands until they heard from OU. It's also quite possible that they sent their own investigation person out to check on the validity of the accusations after they got the email.

As another poster said, when the police get something they check it out, they don't wait for multiple tips and reconfirmations before looking into it. As for the additional staffer being from the area, that type of person should have already been on the compliance staff. Hell, another key point brought up by the NCAA was that for years the athletic department was DIRECTING players to employment under McRae. Truthfully, you are always playing with fire when you send athletes no matter what sport to work under a booster.

[Scott D]

Scott,

Simply put, I believe that the sanctions are too harsh.

I don't believe that the NCAA was out to screw OU.

I don't believe that vacating victories is trivial.

so what you are saying, is you would have preferred we got the treatment that A&M got in 1994? Because obviously it didn't involve vacating wins so the tv ban, postseason ban, and loss of more scholarships wouldn't have been so harsh?

[Jdog]

If I understand correctly from ScottD and jrsooner's posts, the NCAA and OU were notified at the same time. The NCAA chose to remain silent for months, I guess wanting to see whether OU would act or try to cover things up. OU had acted and confirmed such at the earliest time reasonable. Right?

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think that police departments would be allowed to remain silent about a committed crime while waiting to see if the perp would turn themselves in.

There is something very wrong with the way the NCAA system works. It's very much a 'gotcha' game.

According to a Star-Telegram writer, "AN" email was sent to the Dallas Morning New not the NCAA, or OU. Maybe someone should figure out what really happened before we all turn it into barbershop gossip.

It should be all about accountablity, from the boosters, president, coaches, players........ They're all to blame. THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ash]

According to a Star-Telegram writer, "AN" email was sent to the Dallas Morning New not the NCAA, or OU. Maybe someone should figure out what really happened before we all turn it into barbershop gossip.

It should be all about accountablity, from the boosters, president, coaches, players........ They're all to blame. THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The idea that the NCAA and OU got anonymous emails comes directly from the report, IIRC.

[Scott D]

According to a Star-Telegram writer, "AN" email was sent to the Dallas Morning New not the NCAA, or OU. Maybe someone should figure out what really happened before we all turn it into barbershop gossip.

It should be all about accountablity, from the boosters, president, coaches, players........ They're all to blame. THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ironic that a paper tries to say that they had the info first....maybe the writer should read what happened instead of making his own barbershop gossip.

From the full report on the investigation.


In its response to the enforcement staff's notice of allegations, the institution claimed that it "self-reported" the employment violations to the NCAA. In reality, the violations at the dealership were first exposed in a March 3, 2006, electronic message (e-mail) sent by an anonymous source to both the NCAA enforcement staff and to institution officials. This e-mail stated that several student-athletes, including student-athlete 1, the institution's starting quarterback, were paid by the dealership for work that they did not perform. But for this e-mail, it is unlikely that these violations would have come to light.

[C&CDean]

Are y'all still whining, crying, and ****in' and moanin' over this ****? It's ****ing done. We've got a new season starting in a month and a half. Get over it for cryin'-out-loud.

[fwsooner22]

Are y'all still whining, crying, and ****in' and moanin' over this ****? It's ****ing done. We've got a new season starting in a month and a half. Get over it for cryin'-out-loud.


The University is still whinin and Cryin.....Its still on ESPN radio, its still on the Ticket.....Its still in the Dallas Morning News...............I wish it would go away too. I am tired of it, but its still frontpage news. The problem is the season doesn't start for a month and a half.

[C&CDean]

The University is still whinin and Cryin.....Its still on ESPN radio, its still on the Ticket.....Its still in the Dallas Morning News...............I wish it would go away too. I am tired of it, but its still frontpage news. The problem is the season doesn't start for a month and a half.

It's on the front pages? Really? Good thing I only get the Lexington paper and haven't listened to the animal in about 4 years then.

It'll go away if y'all quit yapping about it. That's how it works...

[stoopified]

I agree, Boren is fine.. The thing is you can't trust the NCAA. Either don't do anything wrong or take great measure to correct it yourself.
Or don't cooperate ala USC.

[josh09]

I have read way too many "reflex responses" and "venting of anger", including my own.

The truth is this "thing" is very serious. We were just in front of the NCAA for Kelvin Sampson's disregard for the rules, we have a gymnastics team that had to be disciplined, our baseball team had problems with scholarship distribution and now THIS.

I am old enough to remember the mid 70's and every problem since then. I am tired of this stuff. It is embarrassing. I am tired to a point that I want answers. I want Joe C. (and anyone else) to provide us with what he is going to do about this. I have seen constant efforts to take more of my money every season. Way too much time is spent on getting more and more money for more and more expansion, facilities, etc. That's fine, but it is clear we are putting way too much time and effort in one area and ignoring other areas. That is usually the death march for a "normal" business.

For all the good that has happened during the last decade, it can all be erased with one more idioitic move.

"You can't monitor 85 kids all the time?" Really? How does everyone else do it? Find out how "everyone else does it". Make some changes now!

I am not an expert on any of this, I am just a tired, old, season ticket holder but I do know this, whoever is in charge of the compliance office (if that is Joe C., goodbye) and everyone who has been hired by that person should be let go.....today.

I am as upset as the rest of you but I want answers this time.

Im just still glad we have the chance to win a National Championship this year, next year, or the year after.

Other than that, im ****ed at this whole situation.

[fwsooner22]

Im just still glad we have the chance to win a National Championship this year, next year, or the year after.

Other than that, im ****ed at this whole situation.



Can't disagree with any of that ......

[CUinNC]

The answers simple - just send your Compliance Dir. to the Ohio State University School of Compliance...


They never get caught.........:D

[FaninAma]

Lid,

I can't wait until Deloss Dodds retires and the liberal administration at UT appoints the looney women's AD waiting in the wings to the top job.. It should be quite entertaining.

BTW, with the clout Boren has I really doubt he has to threaten litigation to get things done.

And finally, why didn't UT's baseball team have to vacate their wins in the seasons they were illegally paying an assistant coach? I believe it would have vacated the horns last national title.