Anybody else a little disappointed in Joe C. and Bob?

[wishbonesooner]

I realize it's tough to police 85 young men, but this isn't Middle Appalachian State we're talking about. I don't like the punishment we got either, but this isn't our first rodeo. It should never have happened to us. We did not need this black eye on our program, and somebody should have been on top of this. I don't want anybody but Bob Stoops to be the Sooner coach, but he's been around long enough to know what goes on. The whole country has to be laughing at us being humiliated by a rinky dink little used car dealership.

[AlbqSooner]

While I have to agree that it is embarrasing, I really can't find fault with the Athletic program based on what I have read over the past year.
I work in the regulatory end of the Casino business. Management and regulators put into place all sorts of controls and checks to keep people honest; both employees and guests. When a weakness appears in the control system, it is addressed by tweaking the controls to attempt to provide the operation with sufficient monitoring reports to detect cheating as it occurs rather than in hindsight. Throughout the industry, with some of the best compliance people available, someone will find a way around virtually any controls that are put into place. There will always be the unscrupulous individual who manages to find some chink in the armor and exploit it. All that can be done is to monitor as closely as possible and minimize the opportunities for those who are hell-bent on cheating.

I was speaking with a friend yesterday about the OU situation. He spent his career in the consumer lending industry. There is a saying in that industry that if someone has a desire to cheat you, they probably will.

Were weaknesses exposed in the compliance system OU had in place? Apparently so. Were the individuals involved dead set on cheating the system? Yes, as they have admitted in at least one instance. Did OU respond quickly to both deal with the individuals and tweak the monitoring? Yes. There is precious little beyond that which could have been done to catch this as it occured.

[RacerX]

Certainly some procedures in OU's athletic need to change. However, I would like to know what other major college program compliance departments do. Perhaps all of them could miss something like this.

Are you sure the rest of the country is laughing? There may be a bunch of schools auditing there compliance departments right now.

[Sooner-N-KS]

Are you sure the rest of the country is laughing? There may be a bunch of schools auditing there compliance departments right now.

Yeah, but they would be crazy to self-report anything they find.

[zeke]

No I'm not dissapointed in either. If others are laughing, who cares?

[wishbonesooner]

I agree 100% that other big time schools have the same compliance problems. But other big time programs didn't get caught. We did.
We're Oklahoma. We have the best coach in America, and we pay him the best salary accordingly. We spent what, 150 million to upgrade our facilities? We have an awesome indoor practice field. Anything we need to be successful, we get it. And yet a sneaky little used car dealer does this to us.

[Harry Beanbag]

Certainly some procedures in OU's athletic need to change. However, I would like to know what other major college program compliance departments do. Perhaps all of them could miss something like this.

Are you sure the rest of the country is laughing? There may be a bunch of schools auditing there compliance departments right now.


Every school could stand to learn from UT. They cover their dirty laundry better than the Mob.

[ousoonerfan]

I agree 100% that other big time schools have the same compliance problems. But other big time programs didn't get caught. We did.

We didn't get caught. We self reported. The OU staff came forward and did the right thing when they found out. The NCAA is a joke.

[MyT Oklahoma]

We didn't get caught. We self reported. The OU staff came forward and did the right thing when they found out. The NCAA is a joke.

I beg to differ. The NCAA is a sad joke.
________________________________________
"This is the voice of the Sooner Football Network."

[ousoonerfan]

How about a bad joke?

[BoomerJack]

"And yet a sneaky little used car dealer does this to us."

And two or three greedy teenagers.

[Mac94]

This has nothing to do with Bob Stoops ... he is the head coach, not the head of the compliance department. He has a tough enough job as it is, he can't do "everything."

As said, this is strictly an issue within the athletic departments compliance department. This is the type of stuff they are there to try and prevent. In isolation, it wouldn't be such a big deal but given that there were already issues in mens basketball, mens and womens gymnastics, etc it takes on a much bigger light.

Changes need to be made at OU ... but none of the changes need to involve the duties of the head coach or his assistants .... the changes need to be internal to the compliance part of the department.

[Tear Down This Wall]

I realize it's tough to police 85 young men, but this isn't Middle Appalachian State we're talking about. I don't like the punishment we got either, but this isn't our first rodeo. It should never have happened to us. We did not need this black eye on our program, and somebody should have been on top of this. I don't want anybody but Bob Stoops to be the Sooner coach, but he's been around long enough to know what goes on. The whole country has to be laughing at us being humiliated by a rinky dink little used car dealership.

Not disappointed with Bob at all; he kicked the guys off the team.

Joe C.? Yes. He's the guy at the top, over the compliance department. We've had multiple problems there lately - teams with low and high visibility were already on probation or had been (men's gynamstics and men's basketball). We found out after Cochell's departure that there were scholarship shenanigans that caused the Wichita State coach to back out of the OU baseball job.

I've said it before and been slammed here, but I'll say it again - Joe C. needs to get his butt off the sidelines and pay more attention to what is going on in the offices. He's not Jerry Jones. He doesn't own the school. He doesn't own the athletic department. He's an employee. And, he's an expendable employee no matter what the football team did in 2000.

If Joe C. spent half as much time monitoring the compliance department as he did thinking of ways to make the OU athletics/game experience more expensive, we wouldn't have compliance problems in any sport.

[KantoSooner]

I agree that the internal controls folks need to take one in the rear on this. It was their baby and they screwed it up. Finish.
That said, the whole NCAA program is nuts. The schools make up programs to enforce ill defined rules and then the NCAA lands on them when they make any 'mistake'.
How about if the NCAA makes a program and says, 'This is it. Live to this standard."? But I don't think they'll do that. They are too chicken shiite.

[soonervegas]

Not disappointed with Bob at all; he kicked the guys off the team.

Joe C.? Yes. He's the guy at the top, over the compliance department. We've had multiple problems there lately - teams with low and high visibility were already on probation or had been (men's gynamstics and men's basketball). We found out after Cochell's departure that there were scholarship shenanigans that caused the Wichita State coach to back out of the OU baseball job.

I've said it before and been slammed here, but I'll say it again - Joe C. needs to get his butt off the sidelines and pay more attention to what is going on in the offices. He's not Jerry Jones. He doesn't own the school. He doesn't own the athletic department. He's an employee. And, he's an expendable employee no matter what the football team did in 2000.

If Joe C. spent half as much time monitoring the compliance department as he did thinking of ways to make the OU athletics/game experience more expensive, we wouldn't have compliance problems in any sport.

Dead on. As an alum I am pretty ****ed at Joe C. right now. After the 80's OU needed to run a clean program going forward. OU has the money and resources to compete on a national scale with anyone. The fact that our compliance department was so understaffed (at a program with a history of violations) means either Joe C. didn't understand the importance of OU being squeaky clean or he was too busy making sure Toby K. twig and berries were staying clean. This whole mess (Football, Basketball, and Gymnastics) is all on the CEO, Joe C.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

While I have to agree that it is embarrasing, I really can't find fault with the Athletic program based on what I have read over the past year.
...Were weaknesses exposed in the compliance system OU had in place? Apparently so. Were the individuals involved dead set on cheating the system? Yes, as they have admitted in at least one instance. Did OU respond quickly to both deal with the individuals and tweak the monitoring? Yes. There is precious little beyond that which could have been done to catch this as it occured.

People bent on circumventing the system will find a way, which is what Bomar and Quinn found out about and did. I think the N Communist AA is punch drunk with power and the power they think member institutions have over student athletes when doing things on their own time. They aren't military and are not "owned" 24/7.

[SoonerStormchaser]

The whole country has to be laughing at us being humiliated by a rinky dink little used car dealership.


Actually wishbone, the majority of the sportswriters I've been reading and most of the individual posters on the national chat boards are all agreeing that, while the scholarship reductions and probation extension were ample, the erasure of 2005 was waaaaaaaaaaaay out of line. For once, it appears that most of the country is on OUr side.

[Partial Qualifier]

It would be nice if Stoops and Castiglione can use this experience in the future to help identify rich boosters who are the jock-sniffing, wanting-to-hang-out-with-19-year-old types like that ****ing loser Brad McRae.

I blame McRae as much (if not more so) than Bomar. There's no excuse or good reason for a grown man to facilitate "get paid for not working" deals for football players. I can give Bomar & Quinn some benefit of the doubt -- young, stupid, etc. But for McRae, being railed out of town was getting off too easy, IMO.

Evidently those are the idiots who cause the majority of NCAA problems for programs like OU.
Do what it takes to identify those types and distance them from the program.
Warn the players about them; do whatever it takes.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

It would be nice if Stoops and Castiglione can use this experience in the future to help identify rich boosters who are the jock-sniffing, wanting-to-hang-out-with-19-year-old types like that ****ing loser Brad McRae.

I blame McRae as much (if not more so) than Bomar. There's no excuse or good reason for a grown man to facilitate "get paid for not working" deals for football players. I can give Bomar & Quinn some benefit of the doubt -- young, stupid, etc. But for McRae, being railed out of town was getting off too easy, IMO.

Evidently those are the idiots who cause the majority of NCAA problems for programs like OU.
Do what it takes to identify those types and distance them from the program.
Warn the players about them; do whatever it takes.


I agree. And actually, why did the university only give McRae a 5 year suspension from being involved?

If I had a vote it would be a lifetime ban. And I'm surprised the NCAA didn't order that as well.

Punishing Stoops (in fact singling him out in the ruling noting his coaching record is to be ammended) who clearly cannot 24/7 be the compliance director, and who acted through-and-through with integrity from all accounts, is barking up the wrong tree, IMO.

[Petro-Sooner]

jock-sniffing, wanting-to-hang-out-with-19-year-old types like that ****ing loser Brad McRae.

James Hale?

[jrsooner]

As said, this is strictly an issue within the athletic departments compliance department. This is the type of stuff they are there to try and prevent. In isolation, it wouldn't be such a big deal but given that there were already issues in mens basketball, mens and womens gymnastics, etc it takes on a much bigger light.

Changes need to be made at OU ... but none of the changes need to involve the duties of the head coach or his assistants .... the changes need to be internal to the compliance part of the department.I gotta disagree. OU's compliance department did all they could, and yes thier controls did work - something the NCAA failed to mention. There is a little something in compliance called "detective controls", the hotlines that OU has set up for reporting violation tips is a "detective control". It exists to catch those that do not follow the proper procedure in the first place. I still need to read the "whole judgement", but I know where to find it now that it's been declared. I would say this "violation" that we got busted for could only have been prevented if OU hires a babysitter to be with the athletes 24x7. Not going to happen. If these punks want to cheat, they will.

Earlier this year, I had a nice talk with one of the people in the compliance office. It was one of the first OU Alumni guest lecture things I attended here in Houston, because it touched on my profession. I deal with compliance on the IT side, and any external auditors that come nosing around IT. After some rather pointed questions, in my opinion they did all they could and they are continually beefing up the controls. Lay off the compliance department, if you have a beef with the department, then get Boren on the phone and have him assign a babysitter to each athlete, because that's the only way you'll have 100% compliance.

Geez...according to the NCAA even talking to a prospective OU athlete (9th grade+) on these boards can get OU in trouble.

Give them a break, most compliance departments are understaffed, overworked, and not given all the tools that they need to make their job easier.

[jrsooner]

NCAA Violation Page with the Announcement of the violation (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.DisplayMICase?p_PkValue=637&p_HeadFoot=1&p_CallCount=1&p_Name=University%20of%20Oklahoma&p_HeadingTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDupl icated&p_SummaryTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDupl icated&p_PenaltyTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDupl icated&p_PublicTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDupli cated&p_AppealTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDupli cated)

Full Report from the NCAA (https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi.MajorInfPackage.ProcessMultipleBylaws?p_Mult iple=0&p_PK=637&p_Button=View+Public+Report&p_TextTerms=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplica ted&p_TextTerms2=ThisIsADummyPhraseThatWillNotBeDuplic ated&p_Division=1)

[Petro-Sooner]

Give them a break, most compliance departments are understaffed, overworked, and not given all the tools that they need to make their job easier.

With what they pay stoops and the rest of those coaches there I can see they have the money, so theres no reason at all for them to be understaffed or not given the proper tools to do there job. I think people need to calm down. Thers much more to life than a stupid football game.

[Vaevictis]

I gotta disagree. OU's compliance department did all they could, and yes thier controls did work - something the NCAA failed to mention.

Not entirely.

If you read the NCAA report, OU has specifically admitted to at least one control failure -- two departments had a miscommunication where each thought the other was responsible for collecting certain data, and because of that, neither ended up doing so.

Also, if you read the report, the NCAA found that they had received the tip at the same time as OU, so while we conducted a swift, by the book internal investigation and reported the results to the NCAA, the comments we're hearing about the NCAA hearing about it from us first aren't exactly true.

The fact is, Bomar and company broke the rules and covered it up. We had some internal procedural failures that might have caught it earlier had the failures not occurred. And we got relatively light punishment because when all was said and done, we had made some honest errors, but we were transparent with respect to those errors and did our best to clean up the situation in good faith.

[Theskipster]

Not entirely.

If you read the NCAA report, OU has specifically admitted to at least one control failure -- two departments had a miscommunication where each thought the other was responsible for collecting certain data, and because of that, neither ended up doing so.


They also made it clear in the public report that there was quite a bit of evidence of a high risk situation that OU knew about but chose to ignore.



At the beginning of the fall and spring terms, the compliance department informed the student-athletes of their numerous obligations, including that they had to register [in advance] with the institution any job they held. This requirement was also set forth in the 2004-05 Student-Athlete Handbook & Academic Planner. Yet no football student-athletes who worked at the dealership during the 2004-05 and 2005-06 academic years registered their jobs with the institution. This included those student-athletes who were not alleged to have committed a violation. During the 2005-06 academic year, only one football student-athlete registered a job (not at the dealership), and no football student-athlete registered a job for the 2004-05 academic year. Because none of these football student-athletes contemporaneously registered their job with the institution, this information was not obtained by the institution's compliance department and the institution was not aware that these football student-athletes worked during the academic year. The institution relied on the initiative of the football student-athletes to register their employment with the institution as the only means of triggering the monitoring process, when the particular circumstances involving the dealership necessitated a more pro-active approach.

[JohnnyMack]

Folks, the fact of the matter is that we just didn't cheat very good this time. It was as boneheaded a way to get money to players by a booster as I can think of.

[setem]

You can not honestly think that Joe C and Bob got them a job just to get them some extra money!

I can see it now!

Bob: "Why don't we put our start qb in a situation to **** up his career and our credibility!"

Joe C: "Sounds good! Get're done!!!"

BULL****!

Brad McRea did that **** on his own. He made himself a "friend of the program" and screwed **** up for everyone!

I think the NCAA should make it possible for college athletes to get paid. The universities need to make it possible that scholarship students athletic or not get some kind of compensation for their hard work.

Everyone profits from the programs at universities except the students!

[Ash]

Folks, the fact of the matter is that we just didn't cheat very good this time. It was as boneheaded a way to get money to players by a booster as I can think of.

^^^This is as boneheaded a post as I can think of.

[JohnnyMack]

^^^This is as boneheaded a post as I can think of.

It was monumentally stupid on the part of McRae and Bomar/Quinn/Hardison to do it this way. The paper trail they left behind was so blatant, the NCAA had no choice but to do something. I mean, what the hell is wrong with slipping some cash inside of an envelope?

Look, I'm not naive enough to think that players all across this country aren't getting cash from boosters. If you are, I would like to talk to you about an investment opportunity I have with a Nigerian friend of mine. For these chuckleheads to do it in such an idiotic way as to get W-2'd on it is just plain boneheaded.

[Ash]

It was monumentally stupid on the part of McRae and Bomar/Quinn/Hardison to do it this way.

...rabble rabble... For these chuckleheads to do it in such an idiotic way as to get W-2'd on it is just plain boneheaded.

I agree with this.

When you posted "we just didn't cheat very good this time" it sounded like you were implying that this was a scheme that the OU and the football program were in on. I think it's pretty that isn't the case.

Maybe I misinterpreted your post.

[stoopified]

While I have to agree that it is embarrasing, I really can't find fault with the Athletic program based on what I have read over the past year.


Were weaknesses exposed in the compliance system OU had in place? Apparently so. Were the individuals involved dead set on cheating the system? Yes, as they have admitted in at least one instance. Did OU respond quickly to both deal with the individuals and tweak the monitoring? Yes. There is precious little beyond that which could have been done to catch this as it occured.
Exactly.

[uncle mo]

Every school could stand to learn from UT. They cover their dirty laundry better than the Mob.

That's what happens when you have as many people (former NCAA investigators) figuring out how to get AROUND the rules as you do people working in compliance.

[wishbonesooner]

Just exactly how did the NCAA become aware of the situation? I have heard it was an anonymous e-mail.

[sooner94]

This whole mess (Football, Basketball, and Gymnastics) is all on the CEO, Joe C.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! A violation in gymnastics too?!?:eek:

Was Bart Conner buying BMW's for recruits again? Get that guy outta here!!:)

On a serious note, I am in agreement with those above in that I think our compliance department dropped the ball. If I was part of the compliance department, I would scrutinize a business that employed 15+ football players. A reasonably intelligent person would see a lot of risk there. Conclusion: Our compliance department is not of reasonable intelligence.

By the way, what the hell did the gymnastics program do to get hit with a violation?

[wishbonesooner]

They had too many practices.

[Theskipster]

Just exactly how did the NCAA become aware of the situation? I have heard it was an anonymous e-mail.

From the Report:



In its response to the enforcement staff's notice of allegations, the institution claimed that it "self-reported" the employment violations to the NCAA. In reality, the violations at the dealership were first exposed in a March 3, 2006, electronic message (e-mail) sent by an anonymous source to both the NCAA enforcement staff and to institution officials. This e-mail stated that several student-athletes, including student-athlete 1, the institution's starting quarterback, were paid by the dealership for work that they did not perform. But for this e-mail, it is unlikely that these violations would have come to light.


and



As previously set forth in the introduction of this report, on March 3, 2006, the institution and the NCAA received an e-mail alleging that three football student-athletes were compensated from the dealership for work they did not perform. That e-mail specifically identified student-athlete 1, as well as identifying an unnamed football student-athlete. It also falsely accused the institution's star running back of having been involved with this scheme as well. The institution interviewed student-athlete 1 twice, and on both occasions he denied involvement in violations.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

So do we blame TAMU for all of this?

[Theskipster]

So do we blame TAMU for all of this?

I am going to blame Mcrae, Quinn, Bomar, and Hardison. Possibly the compliance department for not thinking that anything was shady with the largest employer of the football team being a gigantic jock sniffing booster.

[rainiersooner]

While I have to agree that it is embarrasing, I really can't find fault with the Athletic program based on what I have read over the past year.
I work in the regulatory end of the Casino business. Management and regulators put into place all sorts of controls and checks to keep people honest; both employees and guests. When a weakness appears in the control system, it is addressed by tweaking the controls to attempt to provide the operation with sufficient monitoring reports to detect cheating as it occurs rather than in hindsight. Throughout the industry, with some of the best compliance people available, someone will find a way around virtually any controls that are put into place. There will always be the unscrupulous individual who manages to find some chink in the armor and exploit it. All that can be done is to monitor as closely as possible and minimize the opportunities for those who are hell-bent on cheating.

I was speaking with a friend yesterday about the OU situation. He spent his career in the consumer lending industry. There is a saying in that industry that if someone has a desire to cheat you, they probably will.

Were weaknesses exposed in the compliance system OU had in place? Apparently so. Were the individuals involved dead set on cheating the system? Yes, as they have admitted in at least one instance. Did OU respond quickly to both deal with the individuals and tweak the monitoring? Yes. There is precious little beyond that which could have been done to catch this as it occured.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I've said to anyone who would listen that the NCAA has never articulated with specificity the controls and systems that should be put in place...which is why their claim of failure to monitor is arbitrary and subjective. If their rules stated that you must collect gross earning statements of any athlete employed off-campus once a month and we failed to do that, then yes...failure to monitor. But don't accuse us of violating a standard that has not been articulated.

[rainiersooner]

By the way, what the hell did the gymnastics program do to get hit with a violation?

Several members of the men's team were found guilty of stuffing their leotards to impress the female judges. Real shady stuff.

[goingoneight]

Several members of the men's team were found guilty of stuffing their leotards to impress the female judges. Real shady stuff.

Sure they were trying to impress the females there, rainer??? :eek:

[SoonerMom2]

Why would any school now self report if you are going to get an entire year of wins wiped out by the NCAA? BTW when do we get our money back for the tickets since the NCAA wiped out the games?

We paid for games that didn't happen according to the NCAA. Somebody owes us a refund IMHO! I know we are not going to get it but it would be fun to file a class action lawsuit against the NCAA, the car dealer, Bomar, and Quinn to pay us back for season tickets.

[Vaevictis]

Why would any school now self report if you are going to get an entire year of wins wiped out by the NCAA?

SMU probably has some some insight on that one. You might want to ask them.

But that said, here's a real reason not to self report again:


Dee indicated that Oklahoma could be subject to the NCAA's "death penalty" if more violations occur during its probation period.

After a comment like that, I'd be disinclined to self-report if something happened in the next few years. And inclined to stonewall as much as possible. If you think they're going to impose the death penalty... well, you have nothing to lose by covering stuff up at that point, do you?

(Dee is the chair of the NCAA infraction committee.)

[AlbqSooner]

If their rules stated that you must collect gross earning statements of any athlete employed off-campus once a month and we failed to do that, then yes...failure to monitor. But don't accuse us of violating a standard that has not been articulated.
These athletes did not report, and denied, that they were employed off campus during the fall semester.

[Vaevictis]

If their rules stated that you must collect gross earning statements of any athlete employed off-campus once a month and we failed to do that, then yes...failure to monitor. But don't accuse us of violating a standard that has not been articulated.

FWIW, the compliance office's rules stated that we had to collect the gross earnings statements, and we failed to do so. The fact is, irrespective of NCAA guidelines, we defined "monitoring" as including collecting those gross earnings statements, and because we failed to do so, we had a "failure to monitor."

This is actually something that crops up in many different industries. Even if you're not required to have a procedure for something, once you have that procedure, you can get nailed for not doing it.

[OUHOMER]

As far as self reporting, looks like the email that went to the NCAA and OU. OU saw that the NCAA was cut in so they went to work on reporting.

So it look like they had no choice. Two thing s get me on this.
1. athletes are to report their jobs to the university. None did and nobody noticed. should have sent up a red flag.

2. BSI was the largest employer of athletes. nobody noticed , no red flags?