Scooter Libby's sentence

[Soonrboy]

commuted by Bush hmmm..he doesn't have to serve the 30 month sentence..it was deemed excessive.

[Jimminy Crimson]

Good to hear!

[olevetonahill]

Good to hear!
:D :cool:

[85Sooner]

good to hear. but I still will never talk to an FBI agent.

[Hatfield]

why is that good to hear?

[olevetonahill]

why is that good to hear?
why aint it ?

[King Crimson]

SCooter is an AMerican HEro!

[Hatfield]

just curious why commuting a perjurist is now a good thing is all....

p.s.

AMERICA....f**k yeah

[olevetonahill]

just curious why commuting a perjurist is now a good thing is all....

p.s.

AMERICA....f**k yeah
Hey we got a biznatcho runnin fer prez , that couldnt find records for 4 yrs . then all of a suuden there they are on the coffee table .
Its politics . Them thats in power have the power . them that aint . Dont .:D

[Hatfield]

p.p.s. i never thought for a second he would spend a day in jail. so this neither surprises, angers, or joys me.

[olevetonahill]

Hey Hat
I think it all comes down to what your definition of "IS" is .:D :cool:

[Hatfield]

don't even get me started on the confusing nature of "the"

interesting blog:

As you've no doubt already heard shouted from near every rooftop, President Bush has commuted Scooter Libby's prison sentence. Specifically, the conviction stands -- the fine and probation stand. Libby just doesn't have to spend a day in prison.

Now, here's the key to this.

There is a conceivable argument --- a very poor one but a conceivable one --- for pardoning Scooter Libby, presumably on the argument that the entire prosecution was political and thus illegitimate. But what conceivable argument does the president have for micromanaging the sentence? To decide that the conviction is appropriate, that probation is appropriate, that a substantial fine is appropriate --- just no prison sentence.

This is being treated in the press as splitting the difference, an elegant compromise. But it is the least justifiable approach. The president has decided that the sentencing guidelines and the opinion of judge don't cut it.

The only basis for this decision is that Libby is the vice president's friend, the vice president rules the president and this was the minimum necessary to keep the man silent.

-- Josh Marshall

[GrapevineSooner]

Color me uncaring about all of this.

Dick Cheney trying to claim his office isn't part of the executive branch concerns me much more that Scooter Libby's conviction.

[jk the sooner fan]

he still has to pay a $250K fine,......pretty steep, and serve 2 years probation

how many did Clinton let go when he left office?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Another interesting blog:


I'm FREE, BIYATCH!


SUCK IT!


-- Scooter Libby

[olevetonahill]

Color me uncaring about all of this.

Dick Cheney trying to claim his office isn't part of the executive branch concerns me much more that Scooter Libby's conviction.
Its ALL politics
Is there a ****ing thing we can do ? hell NO . klinton , bush, billary, osama .
they ALL suck .
If you think we make a diff . then you Go girl .:pop:

[85Sooner]

Now where are the charges against the plames. for lying to congress and richard armitage for supposedly outing a Covert CIA agent that wasn't. How can their be obstruction of justice when it was discovered that no crime was commited? How can you obstruct something that doesn't exist?

On a more fun note. Obama the wanna has chimed in. I can't wait for the chimes heard from the clintonions. That will be a hoot.

Just noticed Hillarys web site has no less than 5 pics of her on it. Obama site is shall we say a bit white. Only a tiny half a picture of him. Guess he doesn't need face recongnition.

[Hatfield]

Now where are the charges against the plames. for lying to congress and richard armitage for supposedly outing a Covert CIA agent that wasn't. How can their be obstruction of justice when it was discovered that no crime was commited? How can you obstruct something that doesn't exist?

you really don't know the answer to this?

[85Sooner]

you really don't know the answer to this?


Yeah :)

[PhilTLL]

Now where are the charges against the plames. for lying to congress and richard armitage for supposedly outing a Covert CIA agent that wasn't. How can their be obstruction of justice when it was discovered that no crime was commited? How can you obstruct something that doesn't exist?

The IIPA protects agents for 5 years after any covert ops and Plame had been overseas and under cover at least 7 times in the 18 months before she was outed.

[Jerk]

And who was she outed by?

[PhilTLL]

And who was she outed by?

Before Bob Novak even published his column, Armitage informed Novak and Bob Woodward, Rove told Novak and Matt Cooper, Fleischer told Walter Pincus and David Gregory, and Libby told Judith Miller and Cooper.

And Libby STILL managed to get prosecuted and convicted for a completely different crime.

[Jerk]

Before Bob Novak even published his column, Armitage informed Novak and Bob Woodward, Rove told Novak and Matt Cooper, Fleischer told Walter Pincus and David Gregory, and Libby told Judith Miller and Cooper.

And Libby STILL managed to get prosecuted and convicted for a completely different crime.
Sheesh.

Are people allowed to STFU in grand juries?

I mean, I can't recall what I said to whom 2 years ago on March 15, 5:00pm

[Octavian]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7027/n220072543038124lb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[OUinFLA]

I'm betting Paris Hilton wishes she had a Presidential friend.

She should have commited her crime when clinton was prez. Im sure she could have worked out a deal.

[85Sooner]

The IIPA protects agents for 5 years after any covert ops and Plame had been overseas and under cover at least 7 times in the 18 months before she was outed.


and Outed By?????????????????????????


Initially she was outed by her own husband in "Whos Who in Washington"

[Turd_Ferguson]

and Outed By?????????????????????????


Initially she was outed by her own husband in "Whos Who in Washington"

C'mon, you know family members don't count in **** like that.:P

[Vaevictis]

I don't get how being listed as a diplomat's wife (a matter of public record, actually) would indicate to anyone on the planet that she was CIA.

Care to explain that?

[Sooner24]

The 147 people pardoned by Bill Clinton

Verla Jean Allen (1990 false statements to an agency of the United States)
Nicholas M. Altiere (1983 importation of cocaine)
Bernice Ruth Altschul (1992 money laundering conspiracy)
Joe Anderson Jr. (1988 income tax evasion)
William Sterling Anderson (1987 defraudment of a financial institution, false statements to a financial institution, wire fraud)
Mansour Azizkhani (1984 false statements in bank loan applications)
Cleveland Victor Babin Jr. (1987 using the U.S. mail service to defraud)
Chris Harmon Bagley (1989 conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine)
Scott Lynn Bane (Unlawful distribution of marijuana)
Thomas Cleveland Barber (Issuing worthless checks)
Peggy Ann Bargon (Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act)
David Roscoe Blampied (possess with intent to distribute cocaine)
William Arthur Borders Jr. (Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery)
Arthur David Borel (Odometer Rollback)
Douglas Chrles Borel (Odometer Rollback)
George Thomas Brabham (Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank)
Almon Glenn Braswell (1983 mail fraud and perjury)
Leonard Browder (Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud)
David Steven Brown (Securities fraud and mail fraud)
Delores Caroylene Burleson, aka Delores Cox Burleson (Possession of Marijuana)
John H. Bustamante (wire fraud)
Mary Louise Campbell
Eloida Candelaria
Dennis Sobrevinas Capili
Donna Denise Chambers
Douglas Eugene Chapman
Ronald Keith Chapman
Francisco Larois Chavez
Henry Cisneros (former HUD Secretary)
Roger Clinton, Jr. (half-brother of President Bill Clinton)
Stuart Harris Cohn
David Marc Cooper
Ernest Harley Cox Jr.
John F. Cross Jr.
Reickey Lee Cunningham
Richard Anthony De Labio
John Deutch (former Director of Central Intelligence Agency)
Richard Douglas
Edward Reynolds Downe
Marvin Dean Dudley
Larry Lee Duncan
Robert Clinton Fain
Marcos Arcenio Fernandez
Alvarez Ferrouillet
William Dennis Fugazy
Lloyd Reid George
Louis Goldstein
Rubye Lee Gordon
Pincus Green
Robert Ivey Hamner
Samuel Price Handley
Woodie Randolph Handley
Jay Houston Harmon
Rick Hendrick
John Hummingson
David S. Herdlinger
Debi Rae Huckleberry
Warren C. Hultgren Jr.
Donald Ray James
Stanley Pruet Jobe
Ruben H. Johnson
Linda Jones
James Howard Lake
June Louise Lewis
Salim Bonnor Lewis
John Leighton Lodwick
Hildebrando Lopez
Jose Julio Luaces
James Timothy Maness
James Lowell Manning, (1982, aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate income tax return)
John Robert Martin
Frank Ayala Martinez
Silvia Leticia Beltran Martinez
John Francis McCormick
Susan H. McDougal
Howard Mechanic
Brook K. Mitchell Sr.
Samuel Loring Morison
Charles Wilfred Morgan III
Richard Anthony Nazzaro
Charlene Ann Nosenko
Vernon Raymond Obermeier
Miguelina Ogalde
David C. Owen
Robert W. Palmer
Kelli Anne Perhosky
Richard H. Pezzopane
Orville Rex Phillips
Vinson Stewart Poling Jr.
Norman Lyle Prouse
Willie H.H. Pruitt Jr.[1]
Danny Martin Pursley Sr.
Charles D. Ravenel
William Clyde Ray
Alfredo Luna Regalado
Ildefonso Reynes Ricafort
Marc Rich - tax evasion fugitive
Howard Winfield Riddle
Richard Wilson Riley Jr.
Samuel Lee Robbins
Joel Gonzales Rodriguez
Michael James Rogers
Anna Louise Ross
Dan Rostenkowski - Former Democratic Congressman convicted in the Congressional Post Office Scandal
Gerald Glen Rust
Jerri Ann Rust
Bettye June Rutherford
Gregory Lee Sands
Adolph Schwimmer
Albert A. Seretti Jr.
Patricia Campbell Hearst Shaw
Dennis Joseph Smith
Gerald Owen Smith
Stephen A. Smith
Jimmie Lee Speake
Charles Bernard Stewart
Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins
Fife Symington III - former Arizona governor
Richard Lee Tannehill
Nicholas C. Tenaglia
Gary Allen Thomas
Larry Weldon Todd
Olga C. Trevino
Ignatious Vamvouklis
Patricia A. Van De Weerd
Christopher V. Wade
Bill Wayne Warmath
Jack Kenneth Watson
Donna Lynn Webb
Donald William Wells
Robert H. Wendt
Jack L. Williams
Kavin Arthur Williams
Robert Michael Williams
Jimmie Lee Wilson
Thelma Louise Wingate
Mitchell Couey Wood
Warren Stannard Wood
Dewey Worthey
Rick Allen Yale
Joseph A. Yasak
William Stanley Yingling
Phillip David Young
Keith Sanders
Darren Muci
John Scott (not a full pardon)


The 38 people whos sentences were commuted

Benjamin Berger
Ronald Henderson Blackley
Bert Wayne Bolan
Gloria Libia Camargo
Charles F. Campbell
David Ronald Chandler
Lau Ching Chin
Donald R. Clark
Loreta De-Ann Coffman
Derrick Curry
Velinda Desalus
Jacob Elbaum
Linda Sue Evans
Loretta Sharon Fish
Antoinette M. Frink
David Goldstein
Gerard A. Greenfield
Jodie E. Israel
Kimberly Johnson
Billy Thornton Langston Jr.
Belinda Lynn Lumpkin
Peter MacDonald - President of the Navajo Nation
Kellie Ann Mann
Peter Ninemire
Hugh Ricardo Padmore
Arnold Paul Prosperi
Melvin J. Reynolds - Democratic Congressman from Illinois - bank fraud and obstruction of justice
Pedro Miguel Riveiro
Dorothy Rivers - lead official in Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, plead guilty to theft of 1.2 million dollars in federal grant money
Susan Rosenberg
Kalmen Stern
Cory Stringfellow
Carlos Anibal Vignali - convicted of cocaine trafficking
Thomas Wilson Waddell III
Harvey Weinig
Kim Allen Willis
Kimba Smith
Antonio Camacho Negron - FALN militant

[Sooner24]

February 24, 2001
Hollywood Friend Had Clinton's Ear for 2 Late Pardons
By DAVID JOHNSTON
Harry Thomason, a Hollywood producer and longtime friend of Bill and Hillary Rodham Clinton, spoke privately with the president urging pardons for two Arkansas men convicted of tax evasion charges, a lawyer for Mr. Thomason said today.

Mr. Thomason asked Mr. Clinton to consider the pardon applications of Robert Clinton Fain and James Lowell Manning, who were convicted in 1982 and were granted clemency on Jan. 20 in the final hours of Mr. Clinton's presidency. Mr. Thomason received no compensation for his efforts, said Robert S. Bennett, the lawyer for Mr. Thomason.

Mr. Thomason, an Arkansas friend of the Clintons, is another insider who apparently used his access to the White House to lobby the former president on behalf of a pardon applicant. Roger Clinton, the president's half brother, also spoke with Mr. Clinton on behalf of pardon seekers. Hugh Rodham, a lawyer and Mr. Clinton's brother-in-law, also represented two clients, one who obtained a pardon and another whose prison term was commuted.

Mr. Rodham received nearly $400,000 from the two clients, but agreed to return the money after the former president demanded that he do so.

The pardons are the subject of investigations in the House and Senate and by Mary Jo White, the United States attorney in New York, who has focused primarily on whether supporters of Marc Rich, the fugitive commodities trader, improperly lobbied the White House on his behalf.

Ms. White's prosecutors have expanded their inquiry to include other pardons like Mr. Clinton's decision to commute the sentences of four Hasidic men who were convicted of defrauding the government of millions of dollars.

The House Committee on Government Reform, which has been examining the pardons, has obtained records showing visits to the White House by friends of Mr. Clinton who lobbied for Mr. Rich's pardon: Denise Rich, his former wife; and Beth Dozoretz, a Democratic fund-raiser.

The records are among subpoenaed documents that Congressional investigators are reviewing in preparation for a hearing on Thursday. Republican lawmakers have subpoenaed several witnesses, who are scheduled to testify at the hearing: Bruce Lindsey, the former deputy White House counsel in the Clinton White House; John Podesta, the former White House chief of staff; and Beth Nolan, former White House general counsel.

Today, Roger Clinton said in a newspaper interview that he had sought pardons for six friends, including people he had served time with in prison. The president's brother, who himself was pardoned last month for a 1985 drug conviction, was quoted by The Los Angeles Times today as saying that he left a list of pardon applicants on a White House table for the president to review.

Roger Clinton said that he received no money for his efforts and that he was so disappointed that the president rejected all his friends' pardon applications that he did not speak to his brother for two weeks.

Mr. Rodham, the brother of Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic senator from New York, has agreed to return the $400,000 in fees he was paid for his efforts to obtain a commutation of the prison sentence Carlos Vignali, a convicted drug trafficker from Los Angeles, was serving and a pardon for Almon Glenn Braswell, an herbal supplement marketer from Miami who had been convicted on fraud and perjury charges.

Today, Nancy Luque, Mr. Rodham's lawyer, said he had returned about $300,000. Earlier, Mr. and Mrs. Clinton said that they knew nothing of his efforts and insisted on the repayment, and that they were dismayed by his actions. :eek:

Officials of the Florida bar said today that they had received a complaint about Mr. Rodham's legal work related to the pardons. ''There has been a complaint, so we are looking into it,'' said John Harkness, executive director of the state bar.

Mr. Harkness would not say who brought the complaint or what it concerned. But he did say that the bar had a rule against charging contingency fees in criminal cases. It is generally considered to be unethical for a lawyer to take on a criminal defense for a contingency fee -- that is, when the fee is greater if the client is acquitted.

Professor Charles Wolfram of the Cornell University Law School, a leading authority on legal ethics, said there was no clear answer on whether a pardon representation was part of a criminal representation.

''But the reasons why it's unethical in criminal work is because it's thought to be an incentive to cajole and twist things in order to win the larger fee,'' Mr. Wolfram said. ''One could say the same things in a pardon case and it seems another example of why contingency fees are often a bad idea.''

Mr. Harkness said that the bar association's staff could itself dismiss the complaint if it was determined to be baseless, or that it could refer the complaint to a grievance committee in Dade County, Fla., where Mr. Rodham lives.

Regarding Mr. Thomason's involvement in the pardons, Mr. Bennett said today that Mr. Thomason did little on the request beyond speaking to Mr. Clinton and referring friends of Mr. Fain and Mr. Manning to Harold Ickes, a former aide to Mr. Clinton and friend of Mrs. Clinton.

Mr. Ickes said that he turned over the cases to his law partner, William J. Cunningham III, who was Mrs. Clinton's Senate campaign treasurer. Mr. Cunningham sent the paperwork to the Justice Department, and it was later sent to the White House.

Mr. Cunningham said today that Mr. Thomason was the only person who lobbied on behalf of the two men.

''He was prepared to put his name and reputation on the line in support of these two individuals,'' Mr. Cunningham said. ''Obviously, that's an important endorsement.''

Mr. Fain, 53 and Mr. Manning, 60, both operate restaurants in Arkansas and needed the pardons, Mr. Cunningham said, because their convictions restricted their ability to hold liquor licenses or receive public financing. The two businessmen were not friends of the Clintons or contributors to their campaigns.

Mr. Cunningham said he did not seek to use his influence to obtain the pardons. ''I did not speak with anyone at the Department of Justice or the White House about the petitions,'' he said. ''I did not speak with Senator Clinton or anyone on her staff about the petitions.''

Mr. Cunningham said he had never handled a pardon request in the past.



They were just ****ed because they didn't get a cut. :D

[Rogue]

It's a good thing Scooter wasn't trying to sneak over the border or this type of "amnesty" would be cause for hellfire and brimstone. Good for W, with no political clout to lose, taking a stand against these darn activist judges. :rolleyes:

[Soonerus]

Libby was a political victim....

[def_lazer_fc]

it seems that the argument on the right is that clinton pardoned people so this is ok. now, i'll admit, i was a bit young in the clinton years to know any of the stuff he did, or at least young enough to not be that informed on political matters, but im sure i'd be angry about it today. the whole idea of presidential pardoning seems a bit shady to me. but that really doesn't mean that this particular pardoning is ok. its as bad as the rest. this whole things seems to turn into a me vs. you battle. whatever your side does is ok. whatever the other side does is bad. many people need to understand that its all bad, regardless of whether a D or an R is situated before the person's name. who cares if the last president murdered 1000 people. that doesn't make it alright for the next to murder 1.

thats my rant for the night. :D

[Jimminy Crimson]

We all know that Scooter was going to get pardoned during Bush's last hours in office, so why not go ahead and do it now...

[King Crimson]

Clinton being a scumbag is hardly an argument that Bush or Cheney isn't.

[Octavian]

The 147 people pardoned by Bill Clinton...

The 38 people whos sentences were commuted...


I dunno, so I'm honestly asking:

How many of those were members of his inner circle administration?

Do you honestly believe this commutation was in the spirit of the law?


The thing with this commutation is that it allows Libby to avoid questioning about the investigation. It's brilliant. It keeps him out of jail and keeps him quiet. It sets a precedent that a POTUS can pardon (or, better yet, commute!) people in his own administration who are convicted of crimes while he's still in office.


This is a terrible thing for America. It's legal obstruction of justice by proxy by the most powerful person.


And for as much Clinton gets railed on, that silver tounged Enlightened devil.... why do the moralistic people keep using him as a measuring stick for the pious Bush? Why do people keep using Clinton's foils as a counter to the miserable and criminal atrocities of the Great Tax-Cuttin' Christian Soldier? What a pitiful excuse.


What a comedic soap opera it would've been had this Admn. just stayed in that realm of idealistic, downright stupid incompetency. But they didn't. They got a political break in 9/11. Patriotic fever rallied good people around the Commander-in-Chief...he pushed domestic socioeconomic and foreign policy all in the name of national security. And he got elected for the first time in '04 and got a second term. Lucky politician who exploited events.


They've gone above and beyond everything this country has ever seen....both domestically and globally. You hated Clinton? Fine. That has nothing to do with the absolute failure that this administration has been. When Clinton pardoned those people, we never invoked Nixon's pardons because it wasn't relevant. It was in the past and didn't have anything to do with the present. Just like now.


This is the worst executive administration in the history of the United States of America. January 20, 2009 can't come fast enough for every single American...whether they realize it or not. Whether or not they comprehend that Dubya's face is the greatest single recruitment tool for Muslim extremists...whether or not they like the fact that he invokes God....whether or not they get a fat tax cut (or, like most, just think they're getting a fat tax cut...hahahah, joke's on you!)....whether or not they love the fact that he wears cowboy boots down on the Ranch....this man, this White House, and their policies are hurting all of us. ALL OF US.


If you can't see that this Administration is incredibly awful for the country, the world, and the future of humanity...over 70% of America and the rest of the Planet Earth don't quite know what to say to YOU.

[def_lazer_fc]

I dunno, so I'm honestly asking:

How many of those were members of his inner circle administration?

Do you honestly believe this commutation was in the spirit of the law?


The thing with this commutation is that it allows Libby to avoid questioning about the investigation. It's brilliant. It keeps him out of jail and keeps him quiet. It sets a precedent that a POTUS can pardon (or, better yet, commute!) people in his own administration who are convicted of crimes while he's still in office.


This is a terrible thing for America. It's legal obstruction of justice by proxy by the most powerful person.


And for as much Clinton gets railed on, that silver tounged Enlightened devil.... why do the moralistic people keep using him as a measuring stick for the pious Bush? Why do people keep using Clinton's foils as a counter to the miserable and criminal atrocities of the Great Tax-Cuttin' Christian Soldier? What a pitiful excuse.


What a comedic soap opera it would've been had this Admn. just stayed in that realm of idealistic, downright stupid incompetency. But they didn't. They got a political break in 9/11. Patriotic fever rallied good people around the Commander-in-Chief...he pushed domestic socioeconomic and foreign policy all in the name of national security. And he got elected for the first time in '04 and got a second term. Lucky politician who exploited events.


They've gone above and beyond everything this country has ever seen....both domestically and globally. You hated Clinton? Fine. That has nothing to do with the absolute failure that this administration has been. When Clinton pardoned those people, we never invoked Nixon's pardons because it wasn't relevant. It was in the past and didn't have anything to do with the present. Just like now.


This is the worst executive administration in the history of the United States of America. January 20, 2009 can't come fast enough for every single American...whether they realize it or not. Whether or not they comprehend that Dubya's face is the greatest single recruitment tool for Muslim extremists...whether or not they like the fact that he invokes God....whether or not they get a fat tax cut (or, like most, just think they're getting a fat tax cut...hahahah, joke's on you!)....whether or not they love the fact that he wears cowboy boots down on the Ranch....this man, this White House, and their policies are hurting all of us. ALL OF US.


If you can't see that this Administration is incredibly awful for the country, the world, and the future of humanity...over 70% of America and the rest of the Planet Earth don't quite know what to say to YOU.

freedom hater! but seriously, all this is right on.

and to add to the Scooter pardon. so this man sees it fit to execute a retarded person, but having a man who lied to investigators about a scandal involving his administration (cheney still considers himself part of this administration right?) is grounds for pardoning? this coming from a man who has built most of his legacy on the tough on evildoers and crime card? please.

[Okieflyer]

Here's one of the best parts. This statement by Hillary!

"This commutation sends the clear signal that in this administration, cronyism and ideology trump competence and justice." - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.



Are you kidding!? So what does that make her husband?

Read Sooner24's posts.

(thought I would throw some raw meat out there.) ;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If you can't see that this Administration is incredibly awful for the country, the world, and the future of humanity...over 70% of America and the rest of the Planet Earth don't quite know what to say to YOU.


I can't see it through all the hyperbole flyin' around in here. Help me out and tell us how this is 't3h wurst adm1nsr4shun EV4R!!1111oneone' again.

[Okla-homey]

SHOCKING! The guy was indicted because of partisan politics. Now his sentence is commuted because of partisan politics. I expect eventually, he'll be pardoned because of politics.

[Jerk]

It has made the liberals very upset.

Therefore, I support it.

[Sooner24]

I dunno, so I'm honestly asking:

How many of those were members of his inner circle administration?

Do you honestly believe this commutation was in the spirit of the law?


The thing with this commutation is that it allows Libby to avoid questioning about the investigation. It's brilliant. It keeps him out of jail and keeps him quiet. It sets a precedent that a POTUS can pardon (or, better yet, commute!) people in his own administration who are convicted of crimes while he's still in office.


This is a terrible thing for America. It's legal obstruction of justice by proxy by the most powerful person.


And for as much Clinton gets railed on, that silver tounged Enlightened devil.... why do the moralistic people keep using him as a measuring stick for the pious Bush? Why do people keep using Clinton's foils as a counter to the miserable and criminal atrocities of the Great Tax-Cuttin' Christian Soldier? What a pitiful excuse.


What a comedic soap opera it would've been had this Admn. just stayed in that realm of idealistic, downright stupid incompetency. But they didn't. They got a political break in 9/11. Patriotic fever rallied good people around the Commander-in-Chief...he pushed domestic socioeconomic and foreign policy all in the name of national security. And he got elected for the first time in '04 and got a second term. Lucky politician who exploited events.


They've gone above and beyond everything this country has ever seen....both domestically and globally. You hated Clinton? Fine. That has nothing to do with the absolute failure that this administration has been. When Clinton pardoned those people, we never invoked Nixon's pardons because it wasn't relevant. It was in the past and didn't have anything to do with the present. Just like now.


This is the worst executive administration in the history of the United States of America. January 20, 2009 can't come fast enough for every single American...whether they realize it or not. Whether or not they comprehend that Dubya's face is the greatest single recruitment tool for Muslim extremists...whether or not they like the fact that he invokes God....whether or not they get a fat tax cut (or, like most, just think they're getting a fat tax cut...hahahah, joke's on you!)....whether or not they love the fact that he wears cowboy boots down on the Ranch....this man, this White House, and their policies are hurting all of us. ALL OF US.


If you can't see that this Administration is incredibly awful for the country, the world, and the future of humanity...over 70% of America and the rest of the Planet Earth don't quite know what to say to YOU.



I guess the same reason that people with no morals defend Clinton. ;)


Best I can tell his brother and Susan McDougal were as close to being " inner circle" as I could find.

My two favorite people on the list were Arthur David Borel and Douglas Charles Borel serving time for, "odometer rollback". :eek:

[Okieflyer]

It has made the liberals very upset.

Therefore, I support it.

IN! :D

[SleestakSooner]

Did any of the people that Clinton pardoned or let out of jail early lie to protect someone who perpetrated a fraud in order to take us into a war? The answer is no. If you people think it is cool that these jerk-offs lied to America so they could send our young men and women to die in Iraq, then it would seem the wool has been pulled. I gotta give it up to the master spin doctor Rove. He and his menagere have duped you all.

I would much rather a man lie about getting his dick sucked than about why he started a war we cannot win.

[Hatfield]

It has made the liberals very upset.

Therefore, I support it.


this attitude is why america is slowly being flushed down the toilet...we don't respect ourselves enough anymore to demand honesty from our elected officials. we just want to be on the "winning side"

man sure do miss the days of accountability that i hear so much about from my parents...if they ever existed.

[sooner n houston]

Did any of the people that Clinton pardoned or let out of jail early lie to protect someone who perpetrated a fraud in order to take us into a war? The answer is no. If you people think it is cool that these jerk-offs lied to America so they could send our young men and women to die in Iraq, then it would seem the wool has been pulled. I gotta give it up to the master spin doctor Rove. He and his menagere have duped you all.

I would much rather a man lie about getting his dick sucked than about why he started a war we cannot win.

What a load of ****!!! Way to misrepresent the truth on every count, all the while complaining about people misrepresenting the truth! WOW :(

[Sooner24]

Did any of the people that Clinton pardoned or let out of jail early lie to protect someone who perpetrated a fraud in order to take us into a war? The answer is no. If you people think it is cool that these jerk-offs lied to America so they could send our young men and women to die in Iraq, then it would seem the wool has been pulled. I gotta give it up to the master spin doctor Rove. He and his menagere have duped you all.

I would much rather a man lie about getting his dick sucked than about why he started a war we cannot win.


If you honestly believe that I feel sorry for you.

[Okieflyer]

this attitude is why america is slowly being flushed down the toilet...we don't respect ourselves enough anymore to demand honesty from our elected officials. we just want to be on the "winning side"

man sure do miss the days of accountability that i hear so much about from my parents...if they ever existed.

That's exactly what I said when the Dems were in office. If you truely believe this then "Hats off" to Hatfield. Because I'm with you 100%. We joke a little, but this is the bottom line. We pretty much want the same thing, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We just disagree how to achieve it. But demanding honesty is one of the most important things!

I like you 'Stak, but your screwed up in the head in this one.;)

[Hatfield]

We joke a little, but this is the bottom line. We pretty much want the same thing, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We just disagree how to achieve it.

very much agree

[Tulsa_Fireman]

this attitude is why america is slowly being flushed down the toilet...we don't respect ourselves enough anymore to demand honesty from our elected officials. we just want to be on the "winning side"

man sure do miss the days of accountability that i hear so much about from my parents...if they ever existed.

Wow.

Howdy, pot. I'm kettle.

Anyway, where do you start in regards to accountability? Or is this more partisan asswipery? What era do your parents speak of? The Carter administration, where some accountability could've whacked his retarded self on the nose and forced some action A) in the middle east B) in regards to his overall weaksauce foreign policy or C) with his horrid economic track record?

Howzabout Ford? Do you talk about the Helsinki Accords and turn your head from the fall of South Vietnam to the communist north? Speaking of Vietnam, howzabout some amnesty for those draft dodgers? Yeeehaw.

Nixon? Now THERE'S a lesson in accountability. Yeah.

LBJ, maybe? Good Lord have mercy, do you start at the gladhanding of Texas politics or the "accountability" of accusation upon accusation of stuffed ballot boxes?

Kennedy-yeah, we won't bother.

So seriously, don't give me some crap about politics or even the office of the president having recently taken some suspicious downturn in accountability and control. Your parents may remember good ol' "days of accountability", but history tells a much different story. If anything, with the press coverage and instant news of today's day and age, accountability is at an all-time high. And more and more, they tile the floor of the Oval Office in figurative eggshells until one day, BECAUSE of accountability, I see the office lacking the teeth it requires to execute its duties because of sheer self-preservational fear.

But that's just me.

I like to make direct comments, not some ethereal crap about what my parents talked about.

[OklahomaTuba]

I
They've gone above and beyond everything this country has ever seen....both domestically and globally. You hated Clinton? Fine. That has nothing to do with the absolute failure that this administration has been. When Clinton pardoned those people, we never invoked Nixon's pardons because it wasn't relevant. It was in the past and didn't have anything to do with the present. Just like now.

Dude, you need to RELAX.

Go look at the list of people that Clinton pardonded, and look at Bush's. I think you will find your thinking is seriously flawed, as usual.

I mean, at least Bush didn't pardon a possible terrorist supporting criminal living overseas cause he happened to donate some money to Mr. Clinton's library.

Oh, never mind that, you're right.

Bush gone above and beyond everything this country has ever seen. No wonder Clinton was impeached.

[Hatfield]

hi handle...meet whacko that flies off it in an attempt to misconstrue any and everything.

figured it was about time you two meet.

i was speaking more towards accountability towards one's own actions...thought that was clear with the first part of my post. but i can see how you could misinterpret what i said.

p.s. you left big daddy reagan out of your diatribe...
p.p.s you should probably check your blood pressure. i worry about you.

[OklahomaTuba]

Bush did the right thing.

Libby should serve just as much jail time as Bill Clinton did. Same crime, same punishment.

[picasso]

it seems that the argument on the right is that clinton pardoned people so this is ok. now, i'll admit, i was a bit young in the clinton years to know any of the stuff he did, or at least young enough to not be that informed on political matters, but im sure i'd be angry about it today. the whole idea of presidential pardoning seems a bit shady to me. but that really doesn't mean that this particular pardoning is ok. its as bad as the rest. this whole things seems to turn into a me vs. you battle. whatever your side does is ok. whatever the other side does is bad. many people need to understand that its all bad, regardless of whether a D or an R is situated before the person's name. who cares if the last president murdered 1000 people. that doesn't make it alright for the next to murder 1.

thats my rant for the night. :D
that's not it exactly. the problem is that Clinton didn't face a ****storm in the media for it.
I'm ready for Bushie to go. same as everyone else inside the Beltway.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

i was speaking more towards accountability towards one's own actions...thought that was clear with the first part of my post. but i can see how you could misinterpret what i said.

Nothing you say is clear. Ever. Nothin' personal, but seriously. It's like reading typeset mud.


p.s. you left big daddy reagan out of your diatribe...

I know. I also left out G.H.W. Bush and Clinton. I assumed your parents we're most familiar with the Carter administration or before. An assumption on my part.


p.p.s you should probably check your blood pressure. i worry about you.

Don't. Instead, focus your mind and abilities into the prevention of misinterpretation. Save my hands and wrists from carpal tunnel. You can do eet. Use the Force.

[Hatfield]

Bush did the right thing.

Libby should serve just as much jail time as Bill Clinton did. Same crime, same punishment.

odd quote: 'Regarding the record 152 executions during his two terms as governor, Bush "wrote" in his autobiography, A Charge To Keep, "I don't believe my role is to replace the verdict of a jury with my own."'

p.s. clinton was never convicted...so your same crime, same punishment isn't really a fair comparison.

and i am not saying clinton was right when he perjured himself..just saying your scenario isn't a valid one.

[Hatfield]

Nothing you say is clear. Ever. Nothin' personal, but seriously. It's like reading typeset mud.



I know. I also left out G.H.W. Bush and Clinton. I assumed your parents we're most familiar with the Carter administration or before. An assumption on my part.



Don't. Instead, focus your mind and abilities into the prevention of misinterpretation. Save my hands and wrists from carpal tunnel. You can do eet. Use the Force.

or maybe just take a breath before going all jihad and re-read.

[Hamhock]

can someone explain the purpose of the presidential pardon?

when is it exercised in a manner that would leave Joe Public with the feeling of "Oh, yea, the president did a good thing by subverting the entire judicial system."

serious question.

[picasso]

Did any of the people that Clinton pardoned or let out of jail early lie to protect someone who perpetrated a fraud in order to take us into a war? The answer is no. If you people think it is cool that these jerk-offs lied to America so they could send our young men and women to die in Iraq, then it would seem the wool has been pulled. I gotta give it up to the master spin doctor Rove. He and his menagere have duped you all.

I would much rather a man lie about getting his dick sucked than about why he started a war we cannot win.
geez dude, are you serious? do you think the righties and Rovie are the only players in this game?

pull your head out.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

or maybe just take a breath before going all jihad and re-read.

Or instead, stop saying one thing then crawfishin' like you was heading for the gumbo. An example of...


man sure do miss the days of accountability that i hear so much about from my parents...if they ever existed.

A quote that without backing substance in the remainder of the post would make one think with the inclusion of the parents, that accountability is something once found in the past but no longer available in the here and now. Easily made conclusion that 1) parents, plus 2) accountability in their day and age equals 3) a better time than now because accountability doesn't exist any longer, referenced by, "man sure do miss the days of...", a point of longing where the point is that they are gone, having once enjoyed their presence.


i was speaking more towards accountability towards one's own actions...thought that was clear with the first part of my post.

That's the bad part. What in either post, short of your saying such AFTER the fact of you being called on it, makes any sort of assumption or declaration as to this statement? What in the first part of your post made it clear at all? Let's look at this vaunted, Zapruder-esque "first part" and see if we can't find what it is you speak of.


this attitude is why america is slowly being flushed down the toilet...

Nope, not here.


we don't respect ourselves enough anymore to demand honesty from our elected officials. we just want to be on the "winning side"

Nope, this is referencing our elected officials. Demanding honesty from THEM. Accountability upon THEM. So nope, not here either.


but i can see how you could misinterpret what i said.

No ****. A panel of Noah Webster, Shakespeare, O.J. Simpson's team of lawyers, William Jennings Bryan, and God would've misinterpreted what you said and what you say on a regular basis. Just so you know.

You know, as a courtesy. So you take a breath first and don't go all jihad on us. Good?

Good.

[sooner_born_1960]

can someone explain the purpose of the presidential pardon?

when is it exercised in a manner that would leave Joe Public with the feeling of "Oh, yea, the president did a good thing by subverting the entire judicial system."

serious question.
A snippet of history:


Constitutional Authority for Presidential Pardons
The presidential power to pardon is granted under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution.
"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."
No standards, and only one limitation -- no pardons for the impeached.
What the Founders said
The whole subject of presidential pardons stirred little debate at the Constitutional Convention of 1787. No less estimable Founding Father than Alexander Hamilton, writing in Federalist No. 74 (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/fed/blfed74.htm), suggests that, "... in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments, when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquility of the commonwealth."
While a few Founders suggested involving Congress in the pardons business, Hamilton remained certain the power should rest solely with the president. "It is not to be doubted, that a single man of prudence and good sense is better fitted, in delicate conjunctures, to balance the motives which may plead for and against the remission of the punishment, than any numerous body [Congress] whatever," he writes in Federalist No. 74 (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/fed/blfed74.htm).

[Hamhock]

A snippet of history:
[/SIZE][/FONT]




so, basically, the way in which the power is being used currently has absolutely no correlation to the historical intention?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

How come when I see the word 'snippet', I think of my wang?

[picasso]

there's an enormous list of pardons throughout history. Bush is no exception.

I guess history will tell, but history doesn't seem too concerned these days with Ford letting Nixon walk.

:pop:

;)

[Hamhock]

How come when I see the word 'snippet', I think of my wang?



Main Entry: snip·pet
Pronunciation: 'sni-p&t
Function: noun
Etymology: 1snip
: a small part, piece, or thing

:O

[Jeopardude]

Just remember, this was no pardon. It was a commutation. if it was a pardon, Libby couldn't plead the fifth in any further investigation. Bush is covering his administration's ***.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

HEY-OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_imagearticle1358.jpg

[Vaevictis]

Bush did the right thing.

Libby should serve just as much jail time as Bill Clinton did. Same crime, same punishment.

So, in other words, you think politically motivated prosecutions -- even if the party is guilty -- should result in the kind of things that happened to both Libby and Clinton?

I mean, that's fine, but just remember that the next time you feel the need to go off on a rant about Clinton, okay?

[OklahomaTuba]

odd quote: 'Regarding the record 152 executions during his two terms as governor, Bush "wrote" in his autobiography, A Charge To Keep, "I don't believe my role is to replace the verdict of a jury with my own."'

Seems consistant with what he did for Libby, by just comuting his sentence.

[Vaevictis]

Previously, he was always equally loathe to commute, stating the same reason for why he refused to pardon.

Same thing with how he was against nation building in the 2000 debates. :D

[soonerscuba]

Did I step in a time machine and go back to 1997? Or has Clinton not been president for 7 years and yet people still try to use him as a foil for why a different president from a different party mired in a different scandal is justified in commuting the sentence of administration members for a political legacy?

Bush's fate is sealed. He isn't Truman or Lincoln. He is a catastrophe that walks like a man who will be remembered for wasted life and missing WMDs. Good riddance.

[OklahomaTuba]

So, in other words, you think politically motivated prosecutions -- even if the party is guilty -- should result in the kind of things that happened to both Libby and Clinton?

I mean, that's fine, but just remember that the next time you feel the need to go off on a rant about Clinton, okay?

Never said that, but the things Clinton did were of a magnatude much greater than some VP's assistant ever did.

Of course, don't forget that this entire deal over the plame thing was BS from the beginning.

[Petro-Sooner]

Hey scuba, I'd like to get your thoughts on our current President. Yeah? Nay? TIA.

[OklahomaTuba]

Did I step in a time machine and go back to 1997? Or has Clinton not been president for 7 years and yet people still try to use him as a foil for why a different president from a different party mired in a different scandal is justified in commuting the sentence of administration members for a political legacy?

Unfortunatly for people of your political "bend", who seem to think history just doesn't exist, Bush is no where near the corrupt politican you want him to be. He isn't even in Al Gore's league.

So, people like me have to remind people like you who was that bad, and his name was Bill Clinton.

Of course, the fact he is basically running for First Lady right now doesn't help much either.

[JohnnyMack]

VOTE FOR FRED.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

VOTE FOR FRED.

Fred who? Fred Willis, the founding sponsor of the Walnut Hill Productions website? Treasurer of the Walnut Hill Organ Club?


http://www.theatreorgans.com/walnuthill/fred006sm.jpg

[OklahomaTuba]

Here is one of my favorite Clinton pardonees of all time...


Marc Rich (born Marc David Reich on December 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_18), 1934 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934)) is an international commodities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity) trader. He fled the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) in 1983 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983) to live in Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) while being prosecuted on charges of tax evasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion) and illegally making oil deals with Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) during the hostage crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis).

Nice!

[Vaevictis]

Never said that, but the things Clinton did were of a magnatude much greater than some VP's assistant ever did.

Of course. The fact that Clinton is a Democrat automatically makes his crimes worse in your eyes.


Of course, don't forget that this entire deal over the plame thing was BS from the beginning.

... heh. How droll. You're even using the same argument to defend Libby that the Clinton apologists use to defend Clinton. :D

It's the same situation: Everyone knows it's all politically motivated BS, and the partisans for either side flip-flop on whether it's okay depending on whether the guy in question is from their party or the other.

[OklahomaTuba]

This comes in a close 2nd though...


Roger C. Clinton, Jr. (born July 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_25), 1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956)) is President Bill Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton)'s half-brother, the son of Bill's mother Virginia Cassidy Blythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Cassidy_Blythe) (1923 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923)–1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994)), and first stepfather Roger Clinton, Sr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clinton%2C_Sr.)

As a child Bill often had to protect Roger from his periodically alcoholic and abusive father.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clinton%2C_Jr.#_note-0) Roger became a musician and formed a rock band, which Bill Clinton described as talented in his autobiography. When Bill was Governor of Arkansas, Roger was arrested for cocaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine) possession in 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984) and served a year in federal prison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prison).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Clinton%2C_Jr.#_note-1) Subsequently, his brother granted him a pardon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon) amongst the list of pardons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton) issued on January 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_19), 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001).

Roger continued to court legal trouble, however. On February 17 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_17), 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001), he was arrested and charged with two counts of drunken driving and one for disturbing the peace. In a deal that spared him jail time, Roger Clinton pleaded guilty to a non-alcohol-related charge of reckless driving.

[OklahomaTuba]

Of course. The fact that Clinton is a Democrat automatically makes his crimes worse in your eyes.



... heh. How droll. You're even using the same argument to defend Libby that the Clinton apologists use to defend Clinton. :D

So you think that Libby forgeting something and getting charged with perjury is greater than or equal to Clinton admitting to actually commiting the crime??

[JohnnyMack]

So you think that Libby forgeting something and getting charged with perjury is greater than or equal to Clinton admitting to actually commiting the crime??

You think Libby "forgot" something?

;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I forgot to put the seat down.

[soonerscuba]

Bush's pardons are way worse than Gore's.

[OklahomaTuba]

You think Libby "forgot" something?

;)

Well, it was clear he wasn't a culprit in this case. Actually, no one was, since it was a non-issue case anyway.

Its too bad Joe Wilson (who was working for John F. Kerry) never had a day in court. I think it would be fun for him to explain why the 9-11 report & British intel reports confirm what he says didn't happen.

[King Crimson]

who cares about Clinton or Kerry? it's 2007, what does it have to do with Scooter?

"Forgetting": c'mon, Tuba, that's ridiculous.

[Vaevictis]

So you think that Libby forgeting something and getting charged with perjury is greater than or equal to Clinton admitting to actually commiting the crime??

I think that it's amusing that you're now same the same damn **** about Libby that the Democrats said for years.

As far as Libby just "forgetting" something goes, he was convicted on four counts, one obstruction of justice, one lying, two perjury. Note the requirements for the obstruction of justice and perjury counts:

Count 1, obstruction of justice: The grand jury charges that Libby did "knowingly and corruptly endeavor to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice ... by misleading and deceiving the grand jury'' about when and how he learned that covert operative Valerie Plame worked for the CIA. He is also accused of misleading the grand jury about how he disclosed that information to the media.

Count 4, perjury: After taking an oath to testify truthfully, Libby knowingly made a "false material declaration'' about his conversation with Russert, the grand jury alleges.

Count 5, perjury: Also under oath, Libby is accused of knowingly making a "false material declaration'' about his conversation with Cooper.

It's basically the same in my view.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It's basically the same in my view.

The same as Jimmy catchin' a ride on the Lipsmack Express?

You need to get out of the house, man.

[OklahomaTuba]

I think that it's amusing that you're now same the same damn **** about Libby that the Democrats said for years.

:D

I think its more than amusing that I am doing it for what amounts to an assistant for the VP, and the dims had to do it for their best political offering since Carter, and what seems to be their only hope going into the 2008 election.

[Vaevictis]

Hey man, it's okay if you're a hypocrite, just don't be a hypocrite about it ;)

[Hatfield]

Seems consistant with what he did for Libby, by just comuting his sentence.


so when he says that his role isn't to replace the verdict....and then he does just that to jail portion of it.....he somehow hasn't done it via tuba logic?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

man sure do miss the days of accountability that i hear so much about from my parents...if they ever existed.

I'm guessing this never existed. Nostalgia has a way of making the good 'ole days seem better than they really were. If we ever hit that high, white note I don't think it was any time in the last century.

[TexasLidig8r]

When the hell is the damned election... November of flippin 2008???? So we have another approximate 16 months of hearing mohron Republicans thumpin' their chest and saying, "We know what's best for the nation," and mohron Democrats thumpin' their chest and saying, "No, we know what's best for the nation."... and all the while, both parties care more about their own party and their party's special interest groups then the nation as a whole... :rolleyes:

[Bourbon St Sooner]

When the hell is the damned election... November of flippin 2008???? So we have another approximate 16 months of hearing mohron Republicans thumpin' their chest and saying, "We know what's best for the nation," and mohron Democrats thumpin' their chest and saying, "No, we know what's best for the nation."... and all the while, both parties care more about their own party and their party's special interest groups then the nation as a whole... :rolleyes:

Are you claiming that this is a new phenomenon?

[Jeopardude]

Its too bad Joe Wilson (who was working for John F. Kerry) never had a day in court. I think it would be fun for him to explain why the 9-11 report & British intel reports confirm what he says didn't happen.

I just looked at the 9/11 report (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf) and guess what. There's not one thing that discredits Joe Wilson's claim the Iraqis could not and did not get yellowcake from Niger.

The Butler Report does say that Iraq did seek uranium, but that's what Wilson claimed in his filing. Niger would not sell to Iraq.

Pretty good reason to out a CIA agent and obstruct the investigation if you ask me.:rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

I just looked at the 9/11 report (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf) and guess what. There's not one thing that discredits Joe Wilson's claim the Iraqis could not and did not get yellowcake from Niger.

The Butler Report does say that Iraq did seek uranium, but that's what Wilson claimed in his filing. Niger would not sell to Iraq.

Pretty good reason to out a CIA agent and obstruct the investigation if you ask me.:rolleyes:

Apologies, I was wrong...























It wasn't the 9-11 report, it was the Senate report on intel leading up to the Iraq war.


Wilson last year launched a public firestorm with his accusations that the administration had manipulated intelligence to build a case for war. He has said that his trip to Niger should have laid to rest any notion that Iraq sought uranium there and has said his findings were ignored by the White House.

Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html?referrer=emailarticle

[Jerk]

So, in other words, you think politically motivated prosecutions -- even if the party is guilty -- should result in the kind of things that happened to both Libby and Clinton?

I mean, that's fine, but just remember that the next time you feel the need to go off on a rant about Clinton, okay?

I think it can be justified. How many times did the same D.A. run Tom Delay through a Grand Jury before he got an indictment. There ought to be a limit on that.

(ps I believe the number was 7)

[OklahomaTuba]

What I think is funny is that Joe Wilson got caught LYING about the content of his own report to the CIA.

That should have some sort of punishment, one would think.


According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.

[Sooner24]

:pop:

[Sooner24]

http://www.oralchelation.com/wednesday/previous/images/impeachgal41.jpg

[Sooner24]

http://www.samsloan.com/the-hug.jpg

[Tulsa_Fireman]

It may make me a bad person, but I'd probably have hit that, too.

Just because I could, being the El Presidente.

[Vaevictis]

It doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you have low standards.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/scoulton/ForumPics/gw%20id%20hit%20it.jpg

[Jeopardude]

What I think is funny is that Joe Wilson got caught LYING about the content of his own report to the CIA.

That should have some sort of punishment, one would think.


According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.

OK, very slowly now. Wilson didn't say Iraq wasn't looking for uranium. His point was it was impossible to obtain the uranium in Niger because of the safeguards in place there.

Bush was saying Iraq had unconventional arms. He cited the British report that they were SEEKING uranium very recently as evidence we had to go. Wilson pointed out that point was very flimsy.

[GrapevineSooner]

Just remember, this was no pardon. It was a commutation. if it was a pardon, Libby couldn't plead the fifth in any further investigation. Bush is covering his administration's ***.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the fifth amendment a right guaranteed by the constitution?

I've looked all over news stories about this commutation and can't find anywhere where pardoning somebody for a crime revokes their right against self incrimination.

[Vaevictis]

Fifth Amendment: "... nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself ..."

I believe that the principle at work is that if you are relieved of any legal culpability for your actions, you're not really being compelled to be a witness against yourself.

Commutations don't do that; apparently pardons can. Similarly, my understanding is that a prosecuting attorney can also bypass the fifth by granting immunity.

[Jeopardude]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the fifth amendment a right guaranteed by the constitution?

I've looked all over news stories about this commutation and can't find anywhere where pardoning somebody for a crime revokes their right against self incrimination.

if Libby is pardoned, that removes pretenses of self incrimination because the pardon has removed any criminal aspect of Libby's actions. If he refused to testify in any tangential investigation, he would find himself like Judy Miller in jail "until the aspens turn."

[Sooner24]

OK, very slowly now. Wilson didn't say Iraq wasn't looking for uranium. His point was it was impossible to obtain the uranium in Niger because of the safeguards in place there.

Bush was saying Iraq had unconventional arms. He cited the British report that they were SEEKING uranium very recently as evidence we had to go. Wilson pointed out that point was very flimsy.


"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

[Scott D]

I think the real issue is why this guy's parents were never imprisoned for naming him "Scooter".

[SleestakSooner]

Just remember, this was no pardon. It was a commutation. if it was a pardon, Libby couldn't plead the fifth in any further investigation. Bush is covering his administration's ***.

Which is exactly why this is so insidious.

Tell me please why I am so naive to think Bush and Cheney are hiding the truth? Or is it that I don't believe Clinton's big lie is as important an issue?

Dick's easy use of the bird, F-bombs and shotgun misfiring qualify him for the jerk-off description.

Oh and the war... yeah I believe we cannot win it, unless several wishes come true and they nuke Iraq into oblivion.

And Picasso, who cares who the players are when the rules keep getting changed as the game progresses?

[SleestakSooner]

The bottom line here is... even if Wilson wasn't justified in his outing of the administration's misuse of his report, it was and will never be acceptable for a president or his staff to jeopardize an American's life in order to shut up their spouse.

And this has NOTHING to do with Bill or Hillary Clinton so please stop with the lame comparisons. I don't sit here and defend everything that man did while he was in office. But I certainly won't accept the "Clinton did it too" excuse for our current president's actions.

[def_lazer_fc]

Wow.

Howdy, pot. I'm kettle.

Anyway, where do you start in regards to accountability? Or is this more partisan asswipery? What era do your parents speak of? The Carter administration, where some accountability could've whacked his retarded self on the nose and forced some action A) in the middle east B) in regards to his overall weaksauce foreign policy or C) with his horrid economic track record?

Howzabout Ford? Do you talk about the Helsinki Accords and turn your head from the fall of South Vietnam to the communist north? Speaking of Vietnam, howzabout some amnesty for those draft dodgers? Yeeehaw.

Nixon? Now THERE'S a lesson in accountability. Yeah.

LBJ, maybe? Good Lord have mercy, do you start at the gladhanding of Texas politics or the "accountability" of accusation upon accusation of stuffed ballot boxes?

Kennedy-yeah, we won't bother.

So seriously, don't give me some crap about politics or even the office of the president having recently taken some suspicious downturn in accountability and control. Your parents may remember good ol' "days of accountability", but history tells a much different story. If anything, with the press coverage and instant news of today's day and age, accountability is at an all-time high. And more and more, they tile the floor of the Oval Office in figurative eggshells until one day, BECAUSE of accountability, I see the office lacking the teeth it requires to execute its duties because of sheer self-preservational fear.

But that's just me.

I like to make direct comments, not some ethereal crap about what my parents talked about.

here's a direct comment....

1. please refrain from the word "retard". my "retarded" brother died of cancer 3 years ago, and that phrase is offensive and, more importantly, makes you sound quite ignorant anyway.
2. i think you missed his ENTIRE point. **** what administration it is. D or R, who cares. they all do shady things. illegal things. so if i bitch about what bush does, don't regurgitate some tired *** Clinton/some other president b.s. b/c thats not the point. the point is this administration does ****ty things. who cares what past administrations did. that doesn't give this one a free pass. and i'll be the first to disagree with whatever ANY administration does that is border line illegal or at least dishonest.
3. and your "point" that this admin isn't doing enough b/c they are worried about what the press or public would think is laughable at best.

[Rogue]

Clinton and Bush are both draft dodgers. Not only do we not elect veterans anymore, but this is one of the most radical departures from our history I've observed. Our country used to value brave men of integrity who were leaders that kids could look up to. The last one we had was Dubya's Daddy. The more I reflect on his presidency the more I respect that man. I hope we elect another one like him. EVAR.

I hope for a liberal but I'd "settle" for a decent human being.
And yes I know the GHWB wasn't a liberal, but at least he wasn't a coward.

[Hatfield]

in today's world...we tear down vets and mock their service and sacrifices. disgusting.

[Hatfield]

Here is one of my favorite Clinton pardonees of all time...

Marc Rich (born Marc David Reich on December 18, 1934) is an international commodities trader. He fled the United States in 1983 to live in Switzerland while being prosecuted on charges of tax evasion and illegally making oil deals with Iran during the hostage crisis.


Nice!

do you know who defended Rich aiding him in getting his pardon?

[VeeJay]

do you know who defended Rich aiding him in getting his pardon?

Lynnyrd Skynnyrd?

[Scott D]

I mean really, if your name is Irv but you choose to go by I. with a middle name of Lewis, which you clearly intend to use as a first name..and you end up going by the nickname of Scooter, you should put a bullet in your own head.

[OklahomaTuba]

OK, very slowly now. Wilson didn't say Iraq wasn't looking for uranium. His point was it was impossible to obtain the uranium in Niger because of the safeguards in place there.

Bush was saying Iraq had unconventional arms.
Actually, here is what Bush said..



“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from"

And then wilson lied about it..


Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq -- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."
According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.

[Scott D]

Tuba quit defending Irv, he was the scapegoat.

[Harry Beanbag]

do you know who defended Rich aiding him in getting his pardon?


It was the Scootmeister I believe.

[Harry Beanbag]

in today's world...we tear down vets and mock their service and sacrifices. disgusting.


That's been going on for a long time, almost two generations now. It's not just in today's world.

[Harry Beanbag]

I hope for a liberal but I'd "settle" for a decent human being.


Good luck with that. There are very very very very very very very few decent human beings who take up politics as a career. They're cut from the same cloth as car salesmen.

[olevetonahill]

Good luck with that. There are very very very very very very very few decent human beings who take up politics as a career. They're cut from the same cloth as car salesmen.
Or sicem .

[Sooner24]

Or sicem .


How dare you sully the good name of car salesmen by comparing them to Sic'Em.

[olevetonahill]

How dare you sully the good name of car salesmen by comparing them to Sic'Em.
my bad.:O :O :O :O :O :O :O

[Rogue]

Good luck with that. There are very very very very very very very few decent human beings who take up politics as a career. They're cut from the same cloth as car salesmen.

Seems that way lately, but I think it's the ruthless sleazy ones that are the most successful. Some damn good folk that approach it as real public servants are around, they just don't raise much money.