Immigration reform is the next civil rights movement

[Stoop Dawg]

I watched "The Rosa Parks Story" the other night and it started me thinking. Then I read JK's post (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94163) and it reinforced it to me.

I believe that immigration reform is today's equivalent of the civil rights movement. There are those who view immigrants (illegal or otherwise) as second class citizens. There are those who want to welcome all people from all countries with no limitations whatsoever.

I'm not 100% sure what my "policy" is yet, but I am pretty sure that this issue is going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

[Harry Beanbag]

I watched "The Rosa Parks Story" the other night and it started me thinking. Then I read JK's post (http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94163) and it reinforced it to me.

I believe that immigration reform is today's equivalent of the civil rights movement. There are those who view immigrants (illegal or otherwise) as second class citizens. There are those who want to welcome all people from all countries with no limitations whatsoever.

I'm not 100% sure what my "policy" is yet, but I am pretty sure that this issue is going to get bigger before it gets smaller.


That's the thing, the illegal immigrants aren't citizens so they shouldn't be treated as such, second class or otherwise. The national security implication tied to this issue is the gorilla in the room than none the nimrods in Washington seem to be talking about.

[Frozen Sooner]

Hmmm.

I have little doubt that much immigration paranoia is fueled by latent racism. That being said, I have a hard time thinking that all immigration paranoia is racist in nature-there's valid and legitimate reasons to be mistrustful of immigrants, both legal and illegal.

Anyhow, I don't see how the struggles of legal immigrants rise to the standard of the civil rights movement. People are allowed to be racist, so long as they don't discriminate. Since there's numerous laws already on the books that prohibit discrimination on the basis of national origin, I can't imagine we'd need something on the level of the civil rights movement.

[Widescreen]

There are those who view immigrants (illegal or otherwise) as second class citizens.
Illegal aliens aren't citizens at all (second class or otherwise).

;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Well, to be completely technical, no kind of alien is a citizen. Otherwise they wouldn't be aliens.

[Harry Beanbag]

Well, to be completely technical, no kind of alien is a citizen. Otherwise they wouldn't be aliens.


Martians are citizens of Mars, no?

[Frozen Sooner]

And they're not aliens on Mars, no? :D

[Stoop Dawg]

Hmmm, I either didn't explain myself adequately or my analogy is bad. Or both.

I'm not saying that immigration reform is related to the civil rights movement, or that the same issues are being addressed. I am saying that immigration reform deals with human rights issues, and may well be viewed historically as being as significant as the civil rights movement. That may be overstating it a little, but I don't think it's off the charts.

I certainly think there need to be regulations dealing with legal immigration. And I also agree 100% that illegal immigration is, well, illegal.

But what *should* be our LEGAL immigration policy? How long should it take? How many should we accept? What should be the qualifications? IMO, those are the questions we *should* be asking. I don't really know our current policy, but I do know that it took my co-worker 8 years to get a permanent work visa. That seems like a bit too long to me.

[jk the sooner fan]

oh i totally disagree on the racist accusation, thats ludicrous in my opinion

this evening on the local news, they played the story of an elderly korean couple that drowned a few days ago, inside their car in rising waters.......they played the 911 tapes from where the couple called for help, problem was, they didnt speak A WORD of english.......the call was jibberish to the 911 operator, and no help was provided

immigration reform without some form of accountable and mandatory assimilation is a waste of time

it has nothing to do with race - the issue here in texas is the mexican - i've got 5 hispanics working for me as adjusters - they're all great and i think the world of them - i dont look at the illegal as a second class citizen - but i do look at them as an illegal immigrant - nothing to do with race, and everything to do with status

[Frozen Sooner]

But *should* be our LEGAL immigration policy? How long should it take? How many should we accept? What should be the qualifications? IMO, those are the questions we *should* be asking. I don't really know our current policy, but I do know that it took my co-worker 8 years to get a permanent work visa. That seems like a bit too long to me.


"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Ideally, I mean.

Some way of weeding out undesirables has to be in place. Of course, defining an undesirable is kinda tricky. That, and a lot of the people the people who are here already are descended from undesirables from other countries.

[Stoop Dawg]

immigration reform without some form of accountable and mandatory assimilation is a waste of time

it has nothing to do with race - the issue here in texas is the mexican

Over in Europe, there are people who actually speak more than one language. It's truely amazing. ;)

[jk the sooner fan]

i dont mean assimilation where anybody has to lose their culture or original language, just being able to function within the world you live

and i've lived in europe, they're not as multi-lingual as you'd think

[Stoop Dawg]

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Ideally, I mean.

Some way of weeding out undesirables has to be in place. Of course, defining an undesirable is kinda tricky. That, and a lot of the people the people who are here already are descended from undesirables from other countries.

Indeed. I'm thinking that if the LEGAL immigration process was faster and easier, we might not have so many ILLEGAL immigrants. Which is NOT to say that there should be NO process, only that the process should be FASTER and MORE EFFICIENT.

And NO, I don't why I'm typing in ALL CAPS so much. Deal.

[Frozen Sooner]

I don't think anyone has a problem with a Mexican immigrant being able to speak Spanish. They're upset that they can't speak English also.

[Stoop Dawg]

I don't think anyone has a problem with a Mexican immigrant being able to speak Spanish. They're upset that they can't speak English also.

I understand, I'm just saying that it's possible for 'Mericans to learn Spanish too. I'm on the fence about the whole "you have to speak English to live in the US" thing. I can see both sides.

[SicEmBaylor]

I understand, I'm just saying that it's possible for 'Mericans to learn Spanish too. I'm on the fence about the whole "you have to speak English to live in the US" thing. I can see both sides.
But, like it or not, English is the language of our land. I don't expect every frencman to know English just because I go over there to visit. I wouldn't expect ever Mexican to know English if I went to Mexico.

The real key to solving the immigration problem is improving Mexico's economy and corrupt government which the Mexican people have never seemed all that interested in doing. That's why I don't feel real sorry for those of them coming over here for a better opportunity. They need to stay put and improve their own country first and foremost, and until that happens we'll always have to contend with a tidal wave of people flowing across the border with or without strong border protection.

[Stoop Dawg]

But, like it or not, English is the language of our land. I don't expect every frencman to know English just because I go over there to visit. I wouldn't expect ever Mexican to know English if I went to Mexico.

I'm not sure the Mexicans expect every American to speak Spanish. They usually have one guy that can speak enough English to get the job. It's something of a burden for them not to learn English, but I'm just not sure it should be required by law.


The real key to solving the immigration problem is improving Mexico's economy and corrupt government which the Mexican people have never seemed all that interested in doing. That's why I don't feel real sorry for those of them coming over here for a better opportunity. They need to stay put and improve their own country first and foremost, and until that happens we'll always have to contend with a tidal wave of people flowing across the border with or without strong border protection.

And that's exactly my point. Are we (the US) willing to deny those people the opportunity for a better life? Based on what? Dude was born a couple of hundred yards south of the Rio Grande so he has to live out his days in Mexico? Everyone just needs to stay where they are born and deal with it? I have a hard time getting behind that.

[jk the sooner fan]

why dont we just military annex mexico and make it the 51st state.....you have to think that we could subdue that country militarily......it would create alot of jobs for whitey down there and the nationals could stay there

;)

[SicEmBaylor]

And that's exactly my point. Are we (the US) willing to deny those people the opportunity for a better life? Based on what? Dude was born a couple of hundred yards south of the Rio Grande so he has to live out his days in Mexico? Everyone just needs to stay where they are born and deal with it? I have a hard time getting behind that.

Most people at some point end up fixing the sort of problems they have in Mexico, and we shouldn't be expected to take care of their population until they finally grow up and demand government accountability. I also find it interesting that "taking care of them" as you suggest would entail a great deal of socialism which is why Mexico is in the trouble that's it's in right now. Where are we suppose to go next when the back of our economy breaks?

It's not our responsibility to take care of the people of the world. It's our responsibility to take care of ourselves...not the Mexicans, not the Iraqis, nobody else.

[Jerk]

Oh hell, let them all in and let them vote.

The sooner our entitlement and handout programs go broke, the sooner we can start all over.

Yeah, and anyone who disagrees with me is a racist.

[Jerk]

Don't you guys think that 300,000,000 is enough people?

[crawfish]

Make it easier for Mexicans to become legal immigrants...

And shut the borders down to illegals.

[OklahomaTuba]

why dont we just military annex mexico

We did that once already to Mexico.

Then some dumbass made us give it all back, with the exception of California, Arizona, New Mexico, tejas, etc.

[FaninAma]

By all means, lets make the whole immigration process easier and allow more immigrants to enter this country. After all, wholesale immigration is working so well in countries like France, Italy, Germany and Great Britain. The assimilation of the huge number of muslim immigrants in those countries has been a seamless process. :)

My father's parents went through the process of applying and waiting for approval. It took almost 5 years. Why are we rewarding individuals who broke the law and are making it more difficult for those immigrants who are abiding by the rules to enter this country?

[BigRedJed]

I'm sorry, Stoop, but comparing immigration reform to the civil rights movement is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The civil rights movement was, at least initially, an effort to end institutional racism against American citizens. Immigration reform is an attempt to deal with people who, let's be honest here, are breaking the law. Not in the same way that a black man who drank out of a water fountain marked "whites only," or a black woman who refused to walk to seats in the back of the bus was, mind you. They are people who are to a large extent trespassers, even though we as a country have sort of been giving it a wink-wink for some years.

Illegal immigrants DESERVE nothing more from the U.S. than humane treatment during the deportation process. That doesn't mean illegals should all be deported, BTW. I'm only saying that there should not be an expectation of more than this from a country which you have entered illegally and whose immigration/tax laws you are breaking.

But the issue is more complex than that. It is possible, maybe even likely, that we need more legal immigrants than our current immigration laws allow. Are they important to us? That needs to be examined. Just what happens if we send everyone packing (not much of a realistic possibility, anyway)? Maybe the process to immigrate and work towards citizenship SHOULD be streamlined and less cumbersome/expensive. Hell, I'm no expert.

But I know this: to expect the rights and privileges of a citizen of this or any country should require that you enter the country legally, and that you pay taxes. THAT should be the litmus test. Many, many people do that every year, and deserve every right/consideration that you and I get. People who aren't doing this aren't even "second-class" citizens; they aren't citizens at all.

The problem is that too many people these days lump all Hispanics (even the legal ones) into the same group. THAT is where racism starts.

This country was built on the work ethic and ingenuity of immigrants, many of whom didn't speak the language when they arrived. I think it's one of the main things that makes this country great. I wouldn't want to see it end.

[jk the sooner fan]

i think we need to review the definition of "racism"

[BigRedJed]

Knock yourself out (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+racism).

[jk the sooner fan]

just once, maybe i wasnt referring to you? ya know?

and for the record, mexican or hispanic is NOT a race.....they are considered white (or white of hispanic origin)....its an ethnicity

[BigRedJed]

You're right. As long as we're getting into semantics and word shadings, maybe I should have used bigotry (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3A+bigotry) rather than racism.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

By all means, lets make the whole immigration process easier and allow more immigrants to enter this country. After all, wholesale immigration is working so well in countries like France, Italy, Germany and Great Britain. The assimilation of the huge number of muslim immigrants in those countries has been a seamless process. :)

My father's parents went through the process of applying and waiting for approval. It took almost 5 years. Why are we rewarding individuals who broke the law and are making it more difficult for those immigrants who are abiding by the rules to enter this country?This is the real situation. I truly don't understand why the legislators thought they had to come up with new laws. They just need to enforce the ones we have.

[JohnnyMack]

Get here legally.

Speak English once you do.

That's the way my ancestors did it. That's the way most of our ancestors did it.

How hard is that?

[jk the sooner fan]

You're right. As long as we're getting into semantics and word shadings, maybe I should have used bigotry (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=define%3A+bigotry) rather than racism.

yeah, well both involve a feeling of superiority over others......

[BigRedJed]

yeah, well both involve a feeling of superiority over others......
Hmm, was THAT directed at me? Geez, I guess I need a translator.

You know, I used to work for a company that abided by a set of "rules." One of the rules was this one: "It is not enough to communicate to be understood... you must communicate in such a way as to not be misunderstood." That is my commitment to you and to others on the board jk. When I'm coming after somebody I'll do my best to do it in a way that's difficult to misinterpret.

[jk the sooner fan]

i wasnt responding to you in the very first place - you just assumed i was

[JohnnyMack]

:pop:

[BigRedJed]

Could it be because you made an ambiguous statement regarding racism immediately after I made a post (the first on this page and only the second in the thread) that mentions the word? Could it be that you and I have disagreed a little in the last couple of days in a thread about Hispanics? Could THAT maybe be the reason? Call me crazy, but I think that assumption was a reasonable one to make based on that scenario.

Do I believe that you directed it elsewhere? Sure, you just told me you did. Good enough for me. But read through that sequence of posts again and tell me if you think it was a ridiculous assumption.

Hence my post about ambiguity in communication.

[King Crimson]

i personally don't care one way or another whether people in this country, citizens or not, speak English. and it's of course so many who claim to have "freedom", less legislation, smaller government, even "libertarian" approaches to the market and other set of issues.....insist on making this legal.

immigration is generally an on again, off again....media managed... "hot-button" topic that, like the new Cold War many of you guys are so excited about (since it references a time you considered to be clearly demarcated by good/bad and gives a comfortable sense of a harmonious world-view and belief in foreign policy that over-affirms the difficulty of having one in a complex world)......will be sadly largely designed by political parties to curry votes with huge demographic chunks of various population. particularly those in the 30-ish to 60-ish Cold War group who allowed the Dems to take GOP votes/seats last November.

it's like youth marketing, but to voting blocks.

[jk the sooner fan]

Could it be because you made an ambiguous statement regarding racism immediately after I made a post (the first on this page and only the second in the thread) that mentions the word? Could it be that you and I have disagreed a little in the last couple of days in a thread about Hispanics? Could THAT maybe be the reason? Call me crazy, but I think that assumption was a reasonable one to make based on that scenario.

Do I believe that you directed it elsewhere? Sure, you just told me you did. Good enough for me. But read through that sequence of posts again and tell me if you think it was a ridiculous assumption.

Hence my post about ambiguity in communication.

i dont remember having any disagreements about hispanics, but i dont remember what i had for breakfast yesterday either - i dont tend to hold on to too much that goes on here

my point was that the term "racism" is thrown around, in my opinion, where it should not be.....it wasnt directed at your post whatsoever

[jk the sooner fan]

Hmm, was THAT directed at me? Geez, I guess I need a translator.

You know, I used to work for a company that abided by a set of "rules." One of the rules was this one: "It is not enough to communicate to be understood... you must communicate in such a way as to not be misunderstood." That is my commitment to you and to others on the board jk. When I'm coming after somebody I'll do my best to do it in a way that's difficult to misinterpret.

just curious, are assumptions included in that communication manual?

;)

[JohnnyMack]

immigration is generally an on again, off again....media managed... "hot-button" topic that, like the new Cold War many of you guys are so excited about (since it references a time you considered to be clearly demarcated by good/bad and gives a comfortable sense of a harmonious world-view and belief in foreign policy that over-affirms the difficulty of having one in a complex world)

:les:Don't you ever disrespect Red Dawn and The Hunt For Red October like that again!!!!!!!!!! Komrade!!!!!!!! :mad:

[JohnnyMack]

just curious, are assumptions included in that communication manual?

;)

Remember, when you assume you make an *** out of u and me.

[Widescreen]

Get here legally.

Speak English once you do.

That's the way my ancestors did it. That's the way most of our ancestors did it.

How hard is that?
Well, it is hard because there are foreigners who want to come to this country and make money. And it might take a lot of time to follow the silly laws. So screw the laws.

[King Crimson]

i get a real sneaky feeling that very few Americans (and even fewer Politicians--err, I mean represented officials) actually understand how the illegal labor market works in the US.

knock off a few "high-profile" media covered ICE raids and people think it's some isolated, crime gang. many people take a "functionalist" approach to the market, when the market can bear this, or the market decides such that it's kind of like a self-regulating organism...that moves in and out of balance by it's own inalienable laws....fact of the matter, by that same logic.....cheap, illegal labor needs to be here for many many types of businesses. why, because it's here.

every time you go Chili's or buy vegetables or fruit, you are supporting illegal labor in this country.

[BU BEAR]

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb224/dbarsne/sunk3ys5.jpg

[Stoop Dawg]

I'm sorry, Stoop, but comparing immigration reform to the civil rights movement is an apples-to-oranges comparison. The civil rights movement was, at least initially, an effort to end institutional racism against American citizens. Immigration reform is an attempt to deal with people who, let's be honest here, are breaking the law. Not in the same way that a black man who drank out of a water fountain marked "whites only," or a black woman who refused to walk to seats in the back of the bus was, mind you. They are people who are to a large extent trespassers, even though we as a country have sort of been giving it a wink-wink for some years.

Illegal immigrants DESERVE nothing more from the U.S. than humane treatment during the deportation process. That doesn't mean illegals should all be deported, BTW. I'm only saying that there should not be an expectation of more than this from a country which you have entered illegally and whose immigration/tax laws you are breaking.

What I mean is that it is a human rights issue. Is there some inherent trait in humans born north of the Rio Grande that gives them a "right" to live in the US while those born south of the river do not have that "right"? Who are we (citizens of the US), as human beings, to deny others the same opportunity that we have. I'm not talking about "taking care of" these people, I'm saying give them the same opportunity to succeed - or fail.


But the issue is more complex than that. It is possible, maybe even likely, that we need more legal immigrants than our current immigration laws allow. Are they important to us? That needs to be examined. Just what happens if we send everyone packing (not much of a realistic possibility, anyway)? Maybe the process to immigrate and work towards citizenship SHOULD be streamlined and less cumbersome/expensive. Hell, I'm no expert.

But I know this: to expect the rights and privileges of a citizen of this or any country should require that you enter the country legally, and that you pay taxes. THAT should be the litmus test. Many, many people do that every year, and deserve every right/consideration that you and I get. People who aren't doing this aren't even "second-class" citizens; they aren't citizens at all.

Here I disagree. IMO it's not a matter of whether "we" need "them". They are human beings, just like us. Keeping "them" out of "our" country without any real reason seems in-humane (perhaps that's too strong a word). If there is a reason (illegal activity, etc.) then sure, keep 'em out.

Also, let me restate that I'm referring to legal immigration and the process by which one becomes a legal immigrant. Those who are here illegally should be dealt with as, well, illegals.

[Stoop Dawg]

The sooner our entitlement and handout programs go broke, the sooner we can start all over.

Your sarcasm actually brings up a very good point. I think that one of the reasons people oppose increased LEGAL immigration is that it's would likely cost taxpayers in the form of govt assistance to some of those individuals. However, this is a problem with the govt assistance programs, which also need reform, not our immigration laws. But the two are certainly co-dependant.

[Stoop Dawg]

Most people at some point end up fixing the sort of problems they have in Mexico, and we shouldn't be expected to take care of their population until they finally grow up and demand government accountability. I also find it interesting that "taking care of them" as you suggest would entail a great deal of socialism which is why Mexico is in the trouble that's it's in right now. Where are we suppose to go next when the back of our economy breaks?

It's not our responsibility to take care of the people of the world. It's our responsibility to take care of ourselves...not the Mexicans, not the Iraqis, nobody else.

I'm not talking about "taking care of" anybody. I'm talking about giving people the same opportunity that you have, if they choose to take it.

I'm also asking you to reconsider your use of "we" and "they". I'm asking you to view yourself as a human being, instead of (or in addition to) just an American.

[JohnnyMack]

every time you go Chili's or buy vegetables or fruit, you are supporting illegal labor in this country.

It's my responsibilty as a consumer to research the hiring practices of every single retailer I visit?

[BU BEAR]

What I mean is that it is a human rights issue. Is there some inherent trait in humans born north of the Rio Grande that gives them a "right" to live in the US while those born south of the river do not have that "right"? Who are we (citizens of the US), as human beings, to deny others the same opportunity that we have. I'm not talking about "taking care of" these people, I'm saying give them the same opportunity to succeed - or fail.


It is a matter of law, the sovereignty of our government and national security. If you can not abide by the laws of the country you intend to enter and can not assimilate to that culture, then stay out and reform your own country.

If you are interested in a civil rights movement, start with the corrupt government in your own country south of the Rio Grande. If you want a great economy and opportunity, start reforming your own country's economy. Mexico has substantial natural resources and there is no reason it should be in the shape it is economically except that the government is corrupt and there is not a sufficient emphasis on education in that country.

Reform Mexico before you come into the US illegally.

We have no obligation to accept illegal immigration. Pleas about "human rights" to dismiss the fact that they are law breakers notwithstanding.

[BU BEAR]

I'm not talking about "taking care of" anybody. I'm talking about giving people the same opportunity that you have, if they choose to take it.
.

Mexico is a great place for the Mexicans to begin their search for "opportunity". They can clean up their own country and have something to be proud of for their efforts in 20 years. This is a better option than sneaking across the border to be used as slave labor by a meat packing plant.

If they are concerned for human rights to the extent that they would impress the concept on us to support their illegal immigration; Mexico should start treating the Guatemalans a lot better and open up their southern border so that the Guatemalans have unfettered access to Southern Mexico.

[King Crimson]

Your sarcasm actually brings up a very good point. I think that one of the reasons people oppose increased LEGAL immigration is that it's would likely cost taxpayers in the form of govt assistance to some of those individuals. However, this is a problem with the govt assistance programs, which also need reform, not our immigration laws. But the two are certainly co-dependant.


i think that has more to do with small business (than Gov assistance), which at least in the food service industry relies almost exclusively on illegal labor. though, any one who thinks the primary objective (despite what is so often said in official capacities) of economic thinking at the highest levels in the government, or the Enterprise Institute, or whatever, has to do with small business is freaking out of their mind.

it's an ideological prop.

[CobraKai]

why dont we just military annex mexico and make it the 51st state.....

;)


Didn't we already do that once and call it Texas?

[rd280z]

Most people are not against immigration but they are against illegal immigration/invasion. We have a constitution but many in power have forgotten that.

[SicEmBaylor]

I'm pretty much against immigration and illegal immigration, but I realize that's not the kosher/PC argument to make right now.

[Petro-Sooner]

But, like it or not, English is the language of our land. I don't expect every frencman to know English just because I go over there to visit. I wouldn't expect ever Mexican to know English if I went to Mexico.

The real key to solving the immigration problem is improving Mexico's economy and corrupt government which the Mexican people have never seemed all that interested in doing. That's why I don't feel real sorry for those of them coming over here for a better opportunity. They need to stay put and improve their own country first and foremost, and until that happens we'll always have to contend with a tidal wave of people flowing across the border with or without strong border protection.

Post of the day.

Fix your own problems. Dont bring your filth and disease into this country.

[King Crimson]

It's my responsibilty as a consumer to research the hiring practices of every single retailer I visit?

and where i said that is where? you make choices like anyone else. if people want to take a high horse about illegals and "dirty messicans"....

it's just the world we live, whether you like it or not.

every time you buy gas....makes the US more dependent on foreign oil.

every time you learn to love 2.60 a gallon gas.

i'd like to see us more proactive at home.

[King Crimson]

I'm pretty much against immigration and illegal immigration, but I realize that's not the kosher/PC argument to make right now.

actually, it is the kosher argument.

English is the language of our former colonial masters.

[royalfan5]

I'm pretty much against immigration and illegal immigration, but I realize that's not the kosher/PC argument to make right now.
So you don't like the net economic benefits of immigration?

[Petro-Sooner]

So you don't like the net economic benefits of illegal immigration?

fixed.

No I dont. I believe it hurts us in the long run. 50 cent head of lettuce is not worth it.

[King Crimson]

So you don't like the net economic benefits of immigration?

naw, because like many others, they don't like seeing Messicans open their own small businesses and succeed. just like most of their Come-to-America ancestors did.

[King Crimson]

fixed.

No I dont. I believe it hurts us in the long run. 50 cent head of lettuce is not worth it.

when was the last time you bought a head of lettuce for 50 cents? so, what is the long run?

who is "us"?

[royalfan5]

fixed.

No I dont. I believe it hurts us in the long run. 50 cent head of lettuce is not worth it.
I was asking Sic-em a question since he indicated he was opposed to immigration period. Also, Illegal immigration is much less of a threat than our government devaluing the dollar through our deficit spending.

[royalfan5]

naw, because like many others, they don't like seeing Messicans open their own small businesses and succeed. just like most of their Come-to-America ancestors did.
Tell me about it. Immigrants have singled handedly revived the main streets of several small cities in Nebraska. Also Mexican pasties are pretty damn delicious.

[Mjcpr]

Tell me about it. Immigrants have singled handedly revived the main streets of several small cities in Nebraska.

Ahh yes, nothing brings back the memories of downtown's from years past like 45 hole-in-the wall taco shops, Menudo stores and EZ Loans.

[Petro-Sooner]

Well what ever the price is. one, two dollars, whatever. Us is the American citizens. Those pro illegal, bitch that we need the illegals cause if not for them then we would pay $20 lettuce and what not. Prices would be higher. Fine. Just close the freakin border. Keep your problems in YOUR country. Not ours.

[royalfan5]

Ahh yes, nothing brings back the memories of downtown's from years past like 45 hole-in-the wall taco shops, Menudo stores and EZ Loans.
It's better than nothing.

[royalfan5]

Well what ever the price is. one, two dollars, whatever. Us is the American citizens. Those pro illegal, bitch that we need the illegals cause if not for them then we would pay $20 lettuce and what not. Prices would be higher. Fine. Just close the freakin border. Keep your problems in YOUR country. Not ours.
Just don't bitch about the higher interest rates needed to keep inflation down in that case.

[Petro-Sooner]

It's better than nothing.

See thats the problem. It sickens me to see people actually sympathetic to those people. Think well its ok that they are here feeding off of and depleting our system. They are nothing but leaches. Keep them out.

[royalfan5]

See thats the problem. It sickens me to see people actually sympathetic to those people. Think well its ok that they are here feeding off of and depleting our system. They are nothing but leaches. Keep them out.
Those damn small business owners are nothing but a drain of society. Anybody who works for a living isn't a leech in my book.

[King Crimson]

See thats the problem. It sickens me to see people actually sympathetic to those people. Think well its ok that they are here feeding off of and depleting our system. They are nothing but leaches. Keep them out.

"those people" aren't depleting "our" system". they prop it up. and increasingly in a global economy the nation state (like the US) will only mean less and less.

you need to realize that "our system" produced the biggest debtor nation on earth, in the history of humanity.

if lettuce is 20$ a head, who affords it? and then, crime goes up. and how do you deal with crime....more government.

[Petro-Sooner]

Royalfan5 I'm not coming after your personally but if farmers and ag companys that higher illegals or even legals were to start paying a decent wage would the prices go up? Is the reason prices are the way they are is cause they are willing to work for practically nothing a day?

[Petro-Sooner]

"those people" aren't depleting "our" system". they prop it up. and increasingly in a global economy the nation state (like the US) will only mean less and less.

you need to realize that "our system" produced the biggest debtor nation on earth, in the history of humanity.

if lettuce is 20$ a head, who affords it? and then, crime goes up. and how do you deal with crime....more government.


Fine let them all in. Lets make us one big happy family/country. I'll learn spanish and convert to Islam. Cause thats where this great country is headed.

[Widescreen]

Also Mexican pasties are pretty damn delicious.
I learned two things from that statement:

1. Pasties are edible.
2. The Mexican variety are apparently tastier than others

[King Crimson]

Fine let them all in. Lets make us one big happy family/country. I'll learn spanish and convert to Islam. Cause thats where this great country is headed.

that's exactly what i said. nice.

[royalfan5]

Royalfan5 I'm not coming after your personally but if farmers and ag companys that higher illegals or even legals were to start paying a decent wage would the prices go up? Is the reason prices are the way they are is cause they are willing to work for practically nothing a day?
There isn't a short answer to this, but processors would pass increases in cost along to the consumer, just like they pass other costs increases along. The rub is meat packers and processors don't pay all that bad, it's just really ****ty work, and in a tight labor market those jobs are hard to fill. As for migrant workers picking vegetables and what not, the way American society is set up there is no ready made pool of migrant workers available for jobs like those. Those workers have to come from somewhere.

[royalfan5]

Fine let them all in. Lets make us one big happy family/country. I'll learn spanish and convert to Islam. Cause thats where this great country is headed.
When did the Mexican's give up Catholicsm?

[King Crimson]

When did the Mexican's give up Catholicsm?

you haven't hear of Islamocathalomarxofascism?

don't you watch Hannity?

[Petro-Sooner]

So I'll bring up the suggestion I brought up in another thread. Why not give those jobs to those on welfare. Make THEM work for there welfare check. Jobs get filled by legal Americans and the illegals are left out in the cold.

[King Crimson]

So I'll bring up the suggestion I brought up in another thread. Why not give those jobs to those on welfare. Make THEM work for there welfare check. Jobs get filled by legal Americans and the illegals are left out in the cold.

who knows? it make make you think twice about going on welfare if you knew you had to kill or cut beef with stylized chainsaws in the slaughterhouses of west texas and eastern colorado.

or scrub toilets in college dorms.

[BU BEAR]

So you don't like the net economic benefits of immigration?

I am commenting on the assumption that you mean illegal immigration.


Would those benefits be before after the netting of the strain on our education system, welfare system, transportation system, healthcare system, etc...

We are paying a lot more for the price of goods than the sticker price. We just do not realize it each time we ring up at the register. We have to wait until April 15 when the full tab comes due.

[Petro-Sooner]

Would those benefits be before after the netting of the strain on our education system, welfare system, transportation system, healthcare system, etc...


They are not straining our system according to KC. ;)

[BU BEAR]

naw, because like many others, they don't like seeing Messicans open their own small businesses and succeed. just like most of their Come-to-America ancestors did.


The Come to American ancestors assimilated and appreciated this country. They realized they were fortunate to be here. Do you think these folks are interested in assimilation and feel fortunate to be here:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/june07wb.jpg

Opening "small businesses" would be the exception rather than the rule and such should be stated. Most are "doing jobs Americans wont do" and are being treated as slave labor. I am assuming this is fine with you.

[JohnnyMack]

and where i said that is where? you make choices like anyone else. if people want to take a high horse about illegals and "dirty messicans"....

it's just the world we live, whether you like it or not.

every time you buy gas....makes the US more dependent on foreign oil.

every time you learn to love 2.60 a gallon gas.

i'd like to see us more proactive at home.

It was certainly your insinuation.

Do I think the U.S. is guilty of systemic failures in regards to domestic oil production? Yep.

Do I think the U.S. is guilty of systemic failures in regards to its handling of illegal immigrants? Yep.

Does it mean that I'm validating those failures by putting gas in my car and driving to Chili's to eat a hamburger?

While I think we as a nation have been short-sighted on lots of policy issues, it's easy for me and you to sit around and "Monday morning quarterback" those situations decades after the fact. While I'm sure you're right from technical standpoint, I don't think your argument is all that practical.

[BU BEAR]

Of course, the invasion south of the border brings no new Crime.

MS-13 is a gang that started... Nevermind it started in Latin America.

[BU BEAR]

http://ginacobb.typepad.com/gina_cobb/images/ifyouthinkimillegal.jpg

This person is likely all about assimilation since he/she is carrying a big old flag de Mexico.

And of course, the true history goes back before Spain y Mexico to some Indians that got conquered and lost their homeland, but you never hear about them from sources like the one in the above picture.

[King Crimson]

The Come to American ancestors assimilated and appreciated this country. They realized they were fortunate to be here. Do you think these folks are interested in assimilation and feel fortunate to be here:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/june07wb.jpg

Opening "small businesses" would be the exception rather than the rule and such should be stated. Most are "doing jobs Americans wont do" and are being treated as slave labor. I am assuming this is fine with you.

1. you know very little about the labor history of most european immigrants in the US. most were exploited in horrible ways to serve the tasks of "capital".

2. it's not fine with me, if you see my previous posts over the years about Mexican friends i've known you'd know that's fallacious and inaccurate. but, again, like many until you prove otherwise demonstate some understanding of what these jobs are and how they work.

3. the same low % that applies to "messicans" owning small business and succeeding is probably about any started by "real americans". any commitment to small business by this or any US government is a hoax and ideological swindle.

it's a nice try on your part to go for the "you are contradicting yourself" and "exception is the rule" angle rather than actually argue a point..

[royalfan5]

I am commenting on the assumption that you mean illegal immigration.


Would those benefits be before after the netting of the strain on our education system, welfare system, transportation system, healthcare system, etc...

We are paying a lot more for the price of goods than the sticker price. We just do not realize it each time we ring up at the register. We have to wait until April 15 when the full tab comes due.
No, I was talking about legal immigration earlier in response to Sic'em. However, in general all migration has a benefit. Retirees are a huge drain too, but nobody is clamoring to get rid of them either.

[royalfan5]

So I'll bring up the suggestion I brought up in another thread. Why not give those jobs to those on welfare. Make THEM work for there welfare check. Jobs get filled by legal Americans and the illegals are left out in the cold.
Why should Government have the right to dicate who businesses hire? Shouldn't business owners have the freedom to operate as they see fit?

[Frozen Sooner]

No, I was talking about legal immigration earlier in response to Sic'em. However, in general all migration has a benefit. Retirees are a huge drain too, but nobody is clamoring to get rid of them either.

I am.

[King Crimson]

Retirees are a huge drain too, but nobody is clamoring to get rid of them either.

this is true. the Baby Boomers are a heavy and disproportiate drain on the "system" and give a distorted view of the burdens of the "welfare state". as long they have social security and their 401K's.....and do Tai Chi on the beach in retirement.

[BU BEAR]

1. you know very little about the labor history of most european immigrants in the US. most were exploited in horrible ways to serve the tasks of "capital".

2. it's not fine with me, if you see my previous posts over the years about Mexican friends i've known you'd know that's fallacious and inaccurate.

it's a nice try on your part to go for the "you are contradicting yourself" and "exception is the rule" angle rather than actually argue a point..

Your point appears to be that in a post 9/11 world, it is acceptable to have a pourous border to exploit humans in the interests of "capital". I, on the other side of the argument, do not believe that pourous border is acceptable in light of the extraordinary security risk that poses. I do not believe that it is "OK" for people to break laws as their first act to come into the country where they do not for the most part have any interest in assimilating and where they drain the infrastracture, healthcare and social systems of the nation they are invading.

The difference between yesteryear when the Europeans came to America is that we were not living in a condition where a pourous border could have led to the smuggling of material for a weapon of mass destruction and we did not have a social system of wealth transfer projects available for explotation by those who broke the law to get here in the first place.

The bottom line is that when the US Government does not enforce its laws, it is allowing its sovereignty to be eroded. I am not fine with that, because the US Government is supposed to be by, of and for the legal citizen... not these nebulous lobbying interests that benefit on the backs of illegal slave labor.

[King Crimson]

i said nothing about 9/11, before or after. if it's about security, argue in those terms and stop posting goofball "assimilation" jpg's that are exactly the exception that proves the rule stuff you were grunting about before.. as is: you are the one who conflates issues.

[BU BEAR]

No, I was talking about legal immigration earlier in response to Sic'em. However, in general all migration has a benefit. Retirees are a huge drain too, but nobody is clamoring to get rid of them either.

All migration has a cost too. It just so happens that the illegal immigrants represent a net drain on our system.

As for the retirees, we will likely have to substantially "modify" the programs that they paid into in order to keep the programs solvent.

[Petro-Sooner]

Why should Government have the right to dicate who businesses hire? Shouldn't business owners have the freedom to operate as they see fit?

By hiring illegals? I think the government does have say as to whether or not you can hire them. Too bad the government doesnt have the balls to do anything about it.

All I'm doing is offering ways to help fix the problem. And that is hiring illegals.

[BU BEAR]

i said nothing about 9/11, before or after. if it's about security, argue in those terms and stop posting goofball "assimilation" jpg's that are exactly the exception that proves the rule stuff you were grunting about before.. as is: you are the one who conflates issues.

I can have more than one point as to why I am against illegal immigration and a not secured border. I can express each point.

I know you said nothing about 9/11. The threat of terrorism has not even figured into your analysis which is one reason your position is lacking.

[King Crimson]

I can have more than one point as to why I am against illegal immigration and a not secured border. I can express each point.

I know you said nothing about 9/11. The threat of terrorism has not even figured into your analysis which is one reason your position is lacking.

i see, i can't have more than one unspoken point....but you can. nice 9/11 "trump card" play.

i've mostly been talking about the US economy, and you know that.

did i not say "if it's about security, argue it in those terms" before. right? i did.

[royalfan5]

By hiring illegals? I think the government does have say as to whether or not you can hire them. Too bad the government doesnt have the balls to do anything about it.

All I'm doing is offering ways to help fix the problem. And that is hiring illegals.
Why not make it easier for people to get here legally then? We are at full employment, if somebody wants to work there is a job for them. Why not make it easier for people who want to come here and work, to come here and work? If you make it simple to come here legally, people will come here legally.

[Petro-Sooner]

I see your point. But I still dont want them in this country. This whole argument about, well they want to assimilate to our ways, and such. I dont buy one second. Looks to me like we are assimilating for them. They have there own country. Fix it and stay there. Call me racist if ya like. I dont mind.

[BU BEAR]

Why not make it easier for people to get here legally then? We are at full employment, if somebody wants to work there is a job for them. Why not make it easier for people who want to come here and work, to come here and work? If you make it simple to come here legally, people will come here legally.

1. Employers that need labor can get it by sponsoring someone on a visa. This is controlled legal immigration. I do not know of many folks that are against this concept.

2. The labor that is most needed requires education. That means the bulk of the new labor should be coming from overseas not south of the border.

3. We should require every immigrant to come here through legal means and part of the requirements should be that you demonstrate a proficiency in English. I know it is unfair. We dont even do that for our high school graduates.

[BU BEAR]

nice 9/11 "trump card" play.



National security trumps a cheap head of lettuce from my perspective.

[royalfan5]

1. Employers that need labor can get it by sponsoring someone on a visa

2. The labor that is most needed requires education. That means the bulk of the new labor should be coming from overseas not south of the border

3. We should require every immigrant to come here through legal means and part of the requirements should be that you demonstrate a proficiency in English. I know it is unfair. We dont even do that for our high school graduates.
1:We need more visa's and a simpler process
2:We still need plenty of unskilled labor too.
3:Is being an English speaker really that important? Many generations of immigrants have came here without English and done just fine.

[King Crimson]

National security trumps a cheap head of lettuce from my perspective.

you don't really understand much about capitalism do you?

[King Crimson]

and by the way BU, if we are farming out jobs that require "education" overseas in you normative scenario.....what?

[BU BEAR]

you don't really understand much about capitalism do you?

Great argument... to insinuate the ad hominem fallacy really drives home the point that illegal immigration is an acceptable nay a desirable method to meet labor demand.

I understand capitalism. I had to understand it to obtain both my BBA and MBA.

[BU BEAR]

and by the way BU, if we are farming out jobs that require "education" overseas in you normative scenario.....what?

High tech skills are needed, we have a shortage of doctors and nurses that are being met by foreign labor. Many of these people were educated in our universities.

[King Crimson]

High tech skills are needed, we have a shortage of doctors and nurses that are being met by foreign labor. Many of these people were educated in our universities.

it's like i said, you don't understand capitalism. privatization means no Nation-first.

you live in a contradiction.

but, farming out education jobs overseas is a structural problem. you cannot dispute that.

[BU BEAR]

1:We need more visa's and a simpler process
2:We still need plenty of unskilled labor too.
3:Is being an English speaker really that important? Many generations of immigrants have came here without English and done just fine.

1. OK.

2. OK. And that unskilled labor can come here in a controlled, legal fashion and learn the language and assimilate.

Give me 10 examples where someone prospered in this country without a functional knowledge of the English language. Since many generations have done fine, this should be relatively easy for you.

[royalfan5]

1. OK.

2. OK. And that unskilled labor can come here in a controlled, legal fashion and learn the language and assimilate.

Give me 10 examples where someone prospered in this country without a functional knowledge of the English language. Since many generations have done fine, this should be relatively easy for you.
All four sets of my Great Grandparents, There is 8 right there. I'll toss in my Great Aunt as well, and for No.10 a guy related to me by marriage. None of them spoke a word of English when they arrived. The worked hard, and built successful lives. They learned English over time, but spoke German in the home until they died, except the last two. They aren't dead yet.

[BU BEAR]

it's like i said, you don't understand capitalism. privatization means no Nation-first.

I believe you are confusing the political construct of "globalization" and a world without borders with "capitalism". Capitalism existed just fine during periods of nationalism and isolationism.




but, farming out education jobs overseas is a structural problem. you cannot dispute that.

I am not talking about "farming out education jobs overseas". I said we are in need of jobs that require education. We are filling those needs in the high tech and medical fields with foreign nationals, here legally that were educated in our university system.

[royalfan5]

I believe you are confusing the political construct of "globalization" and a world without borders with "capitalism". Capitalism existed just fine during periods of nationalism and isolationism.




I am not talking about "farming out education jobs overseas". I said we are in need of jobs that require education. We are filling those needs in the high tech and medical fields with foreign nationals, here legally that were educated in our university system.
The Great Depression kicked *** didn't?

[Petro-Sooner]

Royal is there that large of a need for unskilled labor that we need more than the 20 million or so illegals that are already here? Seems like there are too many illegals for the amount of jobs that are available. Why do we need more immigrants?

[BU BEAR]

All four sets of my Great Grandparents, There is 8 right there. I'll toss in my Great Aunt as well, and for No.10 a guy related to me by marriage. None of them spoke a word of English when they arrived. The worked hard, and built successful lives. They learned English over time, but spoke German in the home until they died, except the last two. They aren't dead yet.

They learned English. That means they developed a functional knowledge of the English language. That is not happening in many cases today. That is why you have to "press 1 to continue in English". The illegal immigrants are not learning the language. Now, tell me how they will succeed and prosper more often than not.

Your examples show how important it is to learn English, not how people succeed in spite of never learning the language.

[royalfan5]

Royal is there that large of a need for unskilled labor that we need more than the 20 million or so illegals that are already here? Seems like there are too many illegals for the amount of jobs that are available. Why do we need more immigrants?
People tend to move up and out of unskilled jobs, there will be continual demand for unskilled labor. you need to freshen the labor pool. The United States is not the only country that has large groups of migrant workers to fill unskilled positions, all developed economies have this occuring.

[King Crimson]

I believe you are confusing the political construct of "globalization" and a world without borders with "capitalism". Capitalism existed just fine during periods of nationalism and isolationism.
.


i'm not confusing it all. globization is more than a political construct. it is an economic reality enabled by the real-time transaction of capital globally based in communication technologies. globalization is hardly political in terms of the antiquated notions of isolationsim and nationalism. markets need to expand continunally, that's capitalism 101. it shows no loyalty other than profit and expanding markets. welcome to (you choose) social theory 101 or the 21st Century.

globalism means expanding labor markets, cheap labor and the mobility of capital to pick and choose.

[BU BEAR]

The Great Depression kicked *** didn't?

Capitalism did not collapse during the Depression. Despite the challenges it continued on as a viable system that starred down a fascist enemy on two fronts and the communists during a 40 year+ Cold War.


Of course, it would have all been avoided had that goofball FDR just shipped in 20 million undereducated foreign nationals who could not speak the language and had no desire to learn it and would run up a huge social service tab during their stay.

[BU BEAR]

i'm not confusing it all. globization is more than a political construct. it is an economic reality enabled by the real-time transaction of capital globally absed in communication technologies. globalization is hardly political in terms of the antiquated notions of isolationsim and nationalism. markets need to expand continunally, that's capitalism 101. it shows no loyalty other than profit and expanding markets. welcome to (you choose) social theory 101 or the 21st Century.

globalism means expanding labor markets, cheap labor and the mobility of capital to pick and choose.

I agree that markets need to expand continually. There are other methods to expansion other than illegal immigration and a non-existent border. This goes beyond capitalism and gets into political constructs.

[royalfan5]

Capitalism did not collapse during the Depression. Despite the challenges it continued on as a viable system that starred down a fascist enemy on two fronts, Korea and the communists during a 40 year+ Cold War.


Of course, it would have all been avoided had that goofball FDR just shipped in 20 million undereducated foreign nationals who could not speak the language and had no desire to learn it and run up a huge social service tab during their stay.
Of course, had we not taken steps to collaspe world trade via things like the Smoot-Hawley act, we might not have had to face down a fascist enemy, or created large social entitlements. World trade and globalization is clearly correlated to rising standards of living.

[Mjcpr]

Y'all haven't convinced each other yet?

[royalfan5]

Y'all haven't convinced each other yet?
It will probably take 8 pages.

[BU BEAR]

World trade and globalization is clearly correlated to rising standards of living.


That is completely a separate argument from ILLEGAL immigration.

I am not against world trade. I am not against globalization in some form. I am against illegal immigration. If you want to make it easier for labor needs to be met that is fine by my provided that there is not a break down of national security or identity.

[Condescending Sooner]

Why should Government have the right to dicate who businesses hire? Shouldn't business owners have the freedom to operate as they see fit?


Does that mean we don't have to hire women anymore?

[royalfan5]

Does that mean we don't have to hire women anymore?
How many unqualified employees have you personally been forced to hire because of the government? The government should stay out of hiring practices period.

[BU BEAR]

How many unqualified employees have you personally been forced to hire because of the government? The government should stay out of hiring practices period.

That is a great idea, because ADA accomodations are expensive.

Sorry, bad joke.

[Petro-Sooner]

The government should stay out of hiring practices period.

Couldnt agree more. I wish the government had less involvement in our day to day lives but thats for another thread. But there is a big problem with all the illegals. I'm praying it works out.

[King Crimson]

Couldnt agree more. I wish the government had less involvement in our day to day lives but thats for another thread.

it's also for this thread, the contradiction i already pointed out early on.

[OU Adonis]

Why should Government have the right to dicate who businesses hire? Shouldn't business owners have the freedom to operate as they see fit?

Fine, lets play that game.

I will hire only white males in my company.

[PhilTLL]

They learned English. That means they developed a functional knowledge of the English language. That is not happening in many cases today. That is why you have to "press 1 to continue in English". The illegal immigrants are not learning the language. Now, tell me how they will succeed and prosper more often than not.

Your examples show how important it is to learn English, not how people succeed in spite of never learning the language.

http://www.thepewcharitabletrusts.net/pdf/pew_hispanic_2nd_generation_101403.pdf


Language: According to the 2002 National Survey of Latinos, conducted jointly by the Pew Hispanic Center and the Kaiser Family Foundation (Table 6), Spanish-speakers make up most of the first generation. The second generation is substantially bilingual, and the third-plus generations are primarily English speakers.

Table 6: Primary Language Among Latinos: Spanish-Dominant/Bilingual/English-Dominant
1st Gen 72% 24% 4%
2nd Gen 7% 47% 46%
3rd+ Gen 0% 22% 78%

[royalfan5]

Fine, lets play that game.

I will hire only white males in my company.
If a business owner wants to short himself by hiring based on something other than qualifications, it's fine by me. I tend to believe competition will punish someone who doesn't hire on qualifications just as much as the government can.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

So you don't like the net economic benefits of immigration?

NO, not at all! DEPORT THEM!

Just wait until they finish the repairs on my house. K? thks.

[Frozen Sooner]

If a business owner wants to short himself by hiring based on something other than qualifications, it's fine by me. I tend to believe competition will punish someone who doesn't hire on qualifications just as much as the government can.

Unfortunately institutionalized and pervasive racism defeats the rationality assumption of free markets, thus leading to a breakdown of the competitive model. There's some studies out there about this-I'll see if I can't find the cites.

[BU BEAR]

[QUOTE=PhilTLL]1st Gen 72% 24% 4%
2nd Gen 7% 47% 46%
3rd+ Gen 0% 22% 78% QUOTE]

Only 46% of the second generation and 4% of first generation illegals are English dominant and you trumpet that as success???????????

[royalfan5]

Unfortunately institutionalized and pervasive racism defeats the rationality assumption of free markets, thus leading to a breakdown of the competitive model. There's some studies out there about this-I'll see if I can't find the cites.
I'm sure there are, and my point was not to discount that, but rather state that I don't think the government helps that much by poking itself into as many businesses as possible. And quite frankly, that could another 8 page thread, and I really need to finish my corn flow maps today, so I don't think I am up for that right now.

[Ike]

In all of the ****ing contests that are going on now, has anyone ever, at any time, done a serious analysis of what it would cost to "seal up the border" and to keep it sealed?


Everyone talks about this issue as though this cost is negligable, and I don't think it is. How much are you willing to let the government spend to "enforce the laws already on the books"?

I mean, first we have to build a fence, and then we have to maintain the fence. then we have to pay for investigators to locate the illegals already here so we can deport them (12 million of them is quite a bit), and probably prosecute businesses that employed illegals. Not to mention that we have to make sure that the border patrol keeps current on how illegals are trying to thwart the fence, with either tunnels under it, punching holes in it, or even just jumping over it....


In other words, I think its going to cost a lot more than people think....and it can probably reach into the range of whatever the cost to society is of having this many illegals here in the first place.


So how much? Where is your ceiling?

[Ike]

1st Gen 72% 24% 4%
2nd Gen 7% 47% 46%
3rd+ Gen 0% 22% 78%

Only 46% of the second generation and 4% of first generation illegals are English dominant and you trumpet that as success???????????


way to misread statistics. (insert worn out joke about baylor math dept. here.)

[Petro-Sooner]

In all of the ****ing contests that are going on now, has anyone ever, at any time, done a serious analysis of what it would cost to "seal up the border" and to keep it sealed?


Everyone talks about this issue as though this cost is negligable, and I don't think it is. How much are you willing to let the government spend to "enforce the laws already on the books"?

I mean, first we have to build a fence, and then we have to maintain the fence. then we have to pay for investigators to locate the illegals already here so we can deport them (12 million of them is quite a bit), and probably prosecute businesses that employed illegals. Not to mention that we have to make sure that the border patrol keeps current on how illegals are trying to thwart the fence, with either tunnels under it, punching holes in it, or even just jumping over it....


In other words, I think its going to cost a lot more than people think....and it can probably reach into the range of whatever the cost to society is of having this many illegals here in the first place.


So how much? Where is your ceiling?

A wall would cost a lot, yes. I personally believe its worth it. How would we fund it? I say instead of giving money to Africa to help with aids or what not, that would be a start. I'm sure there are ways or redirecting funds that go to other countries and not raise taxes. National security is the governments job. To protect. And there not doing it. I'm surprised a terrrist hasnt came across from the south if they havnt already. Deal with the farmers and there quarter a day workers AFTER the borders are secure.
Seems like a lot you people here just dont give a dam and dont mind if we become one big country.

[PhilTLL]

Only 46% of the second generation and 4% of first generation illegals are English dominant and you trumpet that as success???????????

(1) You can't even close a quote tag correctly and you pick on my posting?
(2) So learning English isn't enough, they have to not know Spanish. Gotcha. "It is not enough to obey him: you must love him."

[FaninAma]

Unfortunately institutionalized and pervasive racism defeats the rationality assumption of free markets, thus leading to a breakdown of the competitive model. There's some studies out there about this-I'll see if I can't find the cites.

Mike, why do you insist on dragging that strawman into this discussion? It is not racism to want secure borders and to want immigrants to abide by the establised laws and pricinples of fairness that govern this country.

I think there are very few people who are against lawful, controlled immigration into this country.

A country without border security is a country wihtout security....period.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Unfortunately institutionalized and pervasive racism defeats the rationality assumption of free markets, thus leading to a breakdown of the competitive model. There's some studies out there about this-I'll see if I can't find the cites.Mike, SO WHAT? If whomever didn't start a business, there wouldn't be that many new jobs for ANYONE. Let the business owner hire who he freakin' wants, and he will prosper or fail due to his own freedom, fer godsakes arready!

[yermom]

(1) You can't even close a quote tag correctly and you pick on my posting?
(2) So learning English isn't enough, they have to not know Spanish. Gotcha. "It is not enough to obey him: you must love him."

it's unAmerican to be bilingual

[Condescending Sooner]

If a business owner wants to short himself by hiring based on something other than qualifications, it's fine by me. I tend to believe competition will punish someone who doesn't hire on qualifications just as much as the government can.


You obviously have never had to complete a year end affirmative action report and then go before the committee. Then you explain why you didn't hire 3 vietnamese employees becuse there are several in your area. When the committee was told no Vietnamese applied, it was suggested we place an ad in the local Vietnamese paper instead of the Oklahoman. The paper is printed in VIETNAMESE.

Royal, you are just out of college, so I will give you a pass, but to say the government doesn't try to influence large businesses who to hire is laughable.

[royalfan5]

You obviously have never had to complete a year end affirmative action report and then go before the committee. Then you explain why you didn't hire 3 vietnamese employees becuse there are several in your area. When the committee was told no Vietnamese applied, it was suggested we place an ad in the local Vietnamese paper instead of the Oklahoman. The paper is printed in VIETNAMESE.

Royal, you are just out of college, so I will give you a pass, but to say the government doesn't try to influence large businesses who to hire is laughable.
What I was saying is that government should stay out businesses. Not that they do.

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike, why do you insist on dragging that strawman into this discussion? It is not racism to want secure borders and to want immigrants to abide by the establised laws and pricinples of fairness that govern this country.

I think there are very few people who are against lawful, controlled immigration into this country.

A country without border security is a country wihtout security....period.

FaninAma, why don't you read what I was responding to in that post before you create your OWN strawman?

I was responding to royalfan5's comments about why the government can and should forbid businesses from only hiring white males. I think I even quoted his statement so that people could better understand THAT's what I was talking about. Or do you deny that there was institutionalized and pervasive racism in existence when Equal Opportunity came into existence?

Government ALSO has a vested interest in forbidding businesses from hiring illegal aliens, simply because it's an attractive nuisance.

Goodness gracious.

And for the record, earlier in the thread I said that I thought that MUCH (not all) anti-immigrant (as opposed to anti-illegal-immigrant) bias stems from racism. I stand by that statement, though bigotry might be a better word. Anyone who lumps all people of a certain ethnicity or national origin together without regard to their own individual actions IS a bigot.

[Stoop Dawg]

This thing derailed fast, but that's not unexpected.


I think there are very few people who are against lawful, controlled immigration into this country.

A country without border security is a country wihtout security....period.

I think if you read through this thread you'll find a couple.

Also, I would say the opposite is also true. I think there are very few people who are FOR unlawful and uncontrolled immigration into this country.

What I was really after was a discussion about LEGAL immigration, and whether our laws governing LEGAL immigration needed to change. Namely, I'm wondering how we, the American people, can make arbitrary laws against LEGAL immigration in good conscience. When I say "arbitrary laws" I mean laws biased against the same classes of people protected by the civil rights ammendment. And yes, I realize that non-US citizens are not protected by the civil rights ammendment. I'm not an idiot and that's not my point. My point is that the civil rights ammendment (and the foundation of this country) is based on the fact that ALL PEOPLE ARE CREATED EQUAL. In light of that fact, how can one justify immigration laws that prevent LEGAL immigration based on race, sex, religion, etc.? That is my question.

[Petro-Sooner]

how can one justify immigration laws that prevent LEGAL immigration based on race, sex, religion, etc.? That is my question.

There is not laws preventing this as I know.

[yermom]

it's just prohibitive, there are lots more Mexicans/hispanics that want to be here that can't legally

the question is, what should be the criteria for becoming a US citizen?

should they be people with a job lined up? someone with a skill? healthy?

how do you prevent instantly having 20 million new welfare cases?

[Frozen Sooner]

There is not laws preventing this as I know.

Heh. In fact, I think it's an impossibility to create a law that prevents legal immigration. 'Cause, you know, if the law prevents it it's not legal. ;)

Sorry, just struck me kind of funny.

[royalfan5]

how do you prevent instantly having 20 million new welfare cases?
We could just do away with welfare.

[Stoop Dawg]

There is not laws preventing this as I know.

Let me rephrase:

"how can one justify immigration opinions that prevent LEGAL immigration based on race, sex, religion, etc.? That is my question."

Edit: And, there is obviously *something* preventing A LOT of Mexicans from LEGALLY immigrating to the US. If legal immigration were quick and easy, we wouldn't have so many here illegally. I highly doubt that all of the illegals are hardened criminals.

[Petro-Sooner]

We could just do away with welfare.

Can you imagine the pandamoniam if we got rid of welfare. You think New Orleans is a mess now. Picture that times ten, all over the country.

[Frozen Sooner]

Can you imagine the pandamoniam if we got rid of welfare. You think New Orleans is a mess now. Picture that times ten, all over the country.

I tell you what, it'd be much calmer around here on the 1st and 15th.

[Petro-Sooner]

True

[Stoop Dawg]

it's just prohibitive, there are lots more Mexicans/hispanics that want to be here that can't legally

the question is, what should be the criteria for becoming a US citizen?

should they be people with a job lined up? someone with a skill? healthy?

how do you prevent instantly having 20 million new welfare cases?

As other have jokingly yet correctly pointed out, these are problems with the welfare system, not the immigration laws.

[royalfan5]

Can you imagine the pandamoniam if we got rid of welfare. You think New Orleans is a mess now. Picture that times ten, all over the country.
That's what the national guard and private charity is for.

[Frozen Sooner]

It's always so cute when young econ majors go through their Randroid phase.

;)

(Just playin' with you royalfan)

[royalfan5]

It's always so cute when young econ majors go through their Randroid phase.

;)

(Just playin' with you royalfan)
I just happen to think that we don't shoot enough poor people as a state. Also working the Corn model makes me irritable. I like playing with the livestock models a lot more.

[Frozen Sooner]

I like playing with the livestock...

:eek:

[Stoop Dawg]

I just happen to think that we don't shoot enough poor people as a state.

Perhaps we could ship the poor people to Mexico?

[Petro-Sooner]

Whats a cow going for these days?

[SCOUT]

Perhaps we could ship the poor people to Mexico?
Not a chance, there immigration laws are way too strict for that.

[OklahomaRed]

As a health system worker in Texas, it's not illegal immigrants from China that have already shut down, and will shut down more E.R.'s across the state. Just an observation. That's why more focus is being put on illegal immigrants from Mexico.

[FaninAma]

FaninAma, why don't you read what I was responding to in that post before you create your OWN strawman?

I was responding to royalfan5's comments about why the government can and should forbid businesses from only hiring white males. I think I even quoted his statement so that people could better understand THAT's what I was talking about. Or do you deny that there was institutionalized and pervasive racism in existence when Equal Opportunity came into existence?

Government ALSO has a vested interest in forbidding businesses from hiring illegal aliens, simply because it's an attractive nuisance.

Goodness gracious.

And for the record, earlier in the thread I said that I thought that MUCH (not all) anti-immigrant (as opposed to anti-illegal-immigrant) bias stems from racism. I stand by that statement, though bigotry might be a better word. Anyone who lumps all people of a certain ethnicity or national origin together without regard to their own individual actions IS a bigot.

Mike, here is a part of your first response to this thread:

I have little doubt that much immigration paranoia is fueled by latent racism.

What paranoia are you referring to.....The fact that a lot of Americans simply want the government to enforce the immigration laws?

BTW, do you ever use discriminatory judgement regarding the personal characteristics of other people in your decisions such as where you live, who you associate with, who your kids associate with, who you do business with? I know you do because we all do. And this type of discrimination doesn't rise to the level of racism in most cases. I don't want illegal immigrants in this country because of their actions and behavior(ie. violating the law), not because of their race.

I could care less which country illegal immigrants come from or which race they belong to. It has nothing to do with race or even culture. It has to do with the fact that they are breaking the law and should not be rewarded for this simply because the US government is too lazy or incompetent to live up to its responsibilities to the citizens of the US.

[Stoop Dawg]

As a health system worker in Texas, it's not illegal immigrants from China that have already shut down, and will shut down more E.R.'s across the state. Just an observation. That's why more focus is being put on illegal immigrants from Mexico.

It's not illegal immigrants from Mexico either. It's our broken healthcare system.

[Petro-Sooner]

As a health system worker in Texas, it's not illegal immigrants from China that have already shut down, and will shut down more E.R.'s across the state. Just an observation. That's why more focus is being put on illegal immigrants from Mexico.

But KC says they prop up the system and are not a burden to it.

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike, here is a part of your first response to this thread:


What paranoia are you referring to.....The fact that a lot of Americans simply want the government to enforce the immigration laws?

BTW, do you ever use discriminatory judgement regarding the personal characteristics of other people in your decisions such as where you live, who you associate with, who your kids associate with, who you do business with? I know you do because we all do. And this type of discrimination doesn't rise to the level of racism in most cases.

I could care less which country illegal immigrants come from or which race they belong to. It has nothing to do with race or even culture. It has to do with the fact that they are breaking the law and should not be rewarded for this simply because the US government is too lazy or incompetent to live up to its responsibilities to the citizens of the US.

Did you read the entire post? Or are you going to just quote something out of context?

Here's a bit more context:


I have little doubt that much immigration paranoia is fueled by latent racism. That being said, I have a hard time thinking that all immigration paranoia is racist in nature-there's valid and legitimate reasons to be mistrustful of immigrants, both legal and illegal.

I said that anti-immigration sentiment-NOT anti-illegal immigration sentiment-is in large part fueled by racism. Perhaps bigotry is a better word. I also said that there ARE legitimate and valid reasons that aren't racism or bigotry to want to limit legal immigration.

The paranoia I'm referring to is that for a large group of people, ANYONE of latino descent is assumed to be an illegal immigrant. Do you dispute that there's people out there that do this?

Please point out anywhere in this thread where I've said that being against illegal immigration is racist or bigoted.

[royalfan5]

Whats a cow going for these days?
depends on a number of things.

[Petro-Sooner]

Just your average cow. Not sports package.

[FaninAma]

It's not illegal immigrants from Mexico either. It's our broken healthcare system.

And the solution is equal access for everyone which means if you have health insurance and good access now then your access will be lessened significantly and if you have no insurance and limited access now your access will be slighlty improved. Are you willing to trade the level of access you have now for a product of lesser quality so others who don't have access can get better care? It will take that kind of sacrifice. Or are you the type who complains about the current system but is unwilling to sacrifice anything you have to help those without.

Yes Mike, I am saying that the majority of Americans do not look at people of hispanic decent and assume they are here illegally. I think it's a bit elitist and presumptive of you to assume they do.

[royalfan5]

Just your average cow. Not sports package.
Nearby futures are 89.72 a hundred on fat cattle, and a 108.20 a hundred for feeders.

[Mjcpr]

Nearby futures are 89.72 a hundred on fat cattle, and a 108.20 a hundred for feeders.

What if you just want a skinny one?

[Petro-Sooner]

$89.72 per hundred pounds? What the average one weight?

[Fugue]

I'd really like to get BU BEAR's perspective on this.

[royalfan5]

$89.72 per hundred pounds? What the average one weight?
1100-1500 depending on the feedyard.

[Mjcpr]

$89.72 per hundred pounds? What the average one weight?

Did you want the sport package?

[Mongo]

$89.72 per hundred pounds? What the average one weight?

In college, I took home some cows that had to be 250-275Lbs, and I didnt get paid ****

[Petro-Sooner]

In college, I took home some cows that had to be 250-275Lbs, and I didnt get paid ****

:eek:

[Stoop Dawg]

And the solution is equal access for everyone

It is?

[Frozen Sooner]

Yes Mike, I am saying that the majority of Americans do not look at people of hispanic decent and assume they are here illegally. I think it's a bit elitist and presumptive of you to assume they do.

Speaking of strawmen...

[Stoop Dawg]

See? Just because two people speak the same language doesn't mean they can communicate!!

"a large group of people" <> "the majority of Americans"

[Scott D]

That Mike Rich is such a rabble rouser...can we get him deported with the rest of the Eskimos?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE ESKIMOS WERE THERE FIRST? BROWN PEOPLE DON'T LIVE IN COLD WEATHER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

:D :D

[royalfan5]

What if you just want a skinny one?
You will have to do a private treaty sale on special order in that case.

[BU BEAR]

That Mike Rich is such a rabble rouser...can we get him deported with the rest of the Eskimos?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE ESKIMOS WERE THERE FIRST? BROWN PEOPLE DON'T LIVE IN COLD WEATHER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

:D :D

Are you sayin' that Mike Rich is an injun just like me?