Turkey invades N. Iraq/Kurdistan... 50,000 troops cross over

[BU BEAR]

http://www.debka.com/


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070606/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_iraq

[OklahomaTuba]

Good. Maybe they can keep going south and deal with AQ and Iran now.

[sooner_born_1960]

Turkey is on our side, right?

[SicEmBaylor]

Turkey is on our side, right?
Eh, it's iffy. Technically, yes. Though we sure as hell don't want them crossing the border into Iraq. It's going to inflame sectarian tensions in the Kurdish region which has remained relatively unscathed.

[SicEmBaylor]

Good. Maybe they can keep going south and deal with AQ and Iran now.
Good? The Kurds are the only ethnic group not fighting us. They've been our best supporters from even before the invasion. They're one success story in the whole g-damned mess that is Iraq. They aren't radical fundamentalists like the Shi'ite and Sunni are either, and you're comparing them to Iran and Al-Queada? Geezus Tuba, are you out of your mind?

[OklahomaTuba]

Actually not what I said, but ok.

[SicEmBaylor]

Actually not what I said, but ok.
What exactly did you say then? You said, "good" in reference to Turkey invading the Kurdish region of Iraq and then said, "Maybe they can keep going south and deal with AQ and Iran now." which would seem to indicate the Kurds are a problem to be dealt with in the same manner as AL-Queada and Iran.

I'm not sure how else that should be taken.

[Scott D]

Tuba, too bad that Turkey is only interested in the 'Kurdistan' portion of Iraq, and will turn a blind eye to the Sunni/Shiite portion of Iraq.

[royalfan5]

The article says 600 commandos went over to chase guerillas. 50,000 trops went in 1997.

[Petro-Sooner]

I should know this yes, but whats the difference from the Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites? Is it a race? A difference in the Islamic faith?

[TexasLidig8r]

So, since our troops are there... to stabilize and support "Free Iraq" and since northern Iraq, while being predominantly Kurdish is still part of Iraq and subject to rule from Baghdad, do we have the ethical or legal obligation to assist in repelling the Turkish assault if and when, it spills over to sovereign Iraq?

In short, is it our mission to fight with our "NATO" ally, Turkey over northern Iraq?

And don't get me started on NATO which is even more of an anachronism than the UN !

[Ike]

let the clusterf%@king begin!

[royalfan5]

I should know this yes, but whats the difference from the Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites? Is it a race? A difference in the Islamic faith?
The Kurds are a differing ethnic group, than the Arabs that live to the South.

[royalfan5]

So, since our troops are there... to stabilize and support "Free Iraq" and since northern Iraq, while being predominantly Kurdish is still part of Iraq and subject to rule from Baghdad, do we have the ethical or legal obligation to assist in repelling the Turkish assault if and when, it spills over to sovereign Iraq?

In short, is it our mission to fight with our "NATO" ally, Turkey over northern Iraq?

And don't get me started on NATO which is even more of an anachronism than the UN !
I don't think we are going to worry too much about 600 Turks chasing some anti-Turk guerillas.

[Scott D]

I should know this yes, but whats the difference from the Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites? Is it a race? A difference in the Islamic faith?

in the case of Iraq, the Kurds are more Persian than Arab. Kurds tend to go across the relgious lines from Jewish to Christian to Islamic. For the most part they tend to not be all that fanatical about their religions as things go.

[Scott D]

So, since our troops are there... to stabilize and support "Free Iraq" and since northern Iraq, while being predominantly Kurdish is still part of Iraq and subject to rule from Baghdad, do we have the ethical or legal obligation to assist in repelling the Turkish assault if and when, it spills over to sovereign Iraq?

In short, is it our mission to fight with our "NATO" ally, Turkey over northern Iraq?

And don't get me started on NATO which is even more of an anachronism than the UN !

Well the Kurds primarily want Kurdistan back, which isn't only in Northern Iraq, but also Southern Turkey, Eastern Syria, and Western Iran.

We've already used 'strong language' I believe the report said prior to Turkey taking any action. It might also be pointed out that Turkey refused us usage of airspace as possible in both Desert Storm and in Operation "Iraqi Freedom".

[BigRedJed]

I think Tuba meant that they could go south, and then they could deal with AQ and Iran, so we don't have to.

That doesn't change the fact that yes, he is out of his mind.

[OklahomaTuba]

What exactly did you say then? You said, "good" in reference to Turkey invading the Kurdish region of Iraq and then said, "Maybe they can keep going south and deal with AQ and Iran now." which would seem to indicate the Kurds are a problem to be dealt with in the same manner as AL-Queada and Iran.

I'm not sure how else that should be taken.

I never mentioned the Kurds to begin with, I was simply saying it would be good if Turkey decided to help out, thats all. :rolleyes:

[OklahomaTuba]

I think Tuba meant that they could go south, and then they could deal with AQ and Iran, so we don't have to.

That doesn't change the fact that yes, he is out of his mind.

Oh I dunno, might be interesting to see if the AQ or Iran starts trying to bring Turkey into this by attacking them. Hopefully they are that stupid.

[Vaevictis]

I should know this yes, but whats the difference from the Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites? Is it a race? A difference in the Islamic faith?

The Kurds are an ethnic group, the Sunnis and Shiites are sects within Islam.

IIRC, Kurds are MOSTLY Sunni Muslim. But there are Jews and Christians too, and from my observation they tend to cleave more to ethnic loyalty than religious sectarian loyalty.

One of the major concerns we've had in the region -- and one that surprisingly hasn't been much of an issue -- is that there is a big nationalistic feeling amongst the Kurds for an independent Kurdistan. As Scott D mentioned, this Kurdistan would include parts of Turkey. Turkey obviously doesn't think this is a good idea and if you'll recall that during the early parts of our involvement in Iraq, Turkey was kind of nervous and making statements against an independent Kurdistan in the north of Iraq, worrying that a movement in that direction would increase Kurdish rebel activity on their side of the border.

Luckily the Kurds in Northern Iraq seem to be pretty smart and level headed and realize that a push for independence (at this time at least) is ill advised. So they've been going along with the unified Iraq plan, probably waiting to see how that pans out.

Turkish troops in N. Iraq is a bad thing, as it has the potential to develop into Turkish/Kurdish violence in Iraq. That's obviously not something we want, because we've already got our hands full with the violence in the south.

[OklahomaTuba]

Its a bad thing for the Kurds, thats for sure.

Hopefully nothing happens to their new refineries we're working on over there.

[Scott D]

Its a bad thing for the Kurds, thats for sure.

Hopefully nothing happens to their new refineries we're working on over there.

if something does, will you get fired and be forced to tend bar at the tittay bar across the street, because that would amuse me....greatly. :D

[Scott D]

Oh I dunno, might be interesting to see if the AQ or Iran starts trying to bring Turkey into this by attacking them. Hopefully they are that stupid.

*shrug* 75% of Turkey is Sunni Muslim.

[Petro-Sooner]

So Sunnis and Shiites are the equivalant to Catholics and Baptists for Christianity? Varied beliefs and traditions within the Christian denomination? So which ones are doing all the suicide bombing? Its not like I have my head in the sand regarding all of this, I just dont pay attention to the news as I should have.

[Scott D]

So Sunnis and Shiites are the equivalant to Catholics and Baptists for Christianity? Varied beliefs and traditions within the Christian denomination? So which ones are doing all the suicide bombing? Its not like I have my head in the sand regarding all of this, I just dont pay attention to the news as I should have.

Eh......sorta I guess. I'd say it's more akin to Catholic v. Protestant in the late middle ages. The major point of separation is more like Christian/Jew in regards to the belief in the path of the scriptures

[BU BEAR]

Eh......sorta I guess. I'd say it's more akin to Catholic v. Protestant in the late middle ages. The major point of separation is more like Christian/Jew in regards to the belief in the path of the scriptures

It (the sunni/shia split) has to deal with who is the rightful heir to the pedophile prophet, Mohammed.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm

[Vaevictis]

So Sunnis and Shiites are the equivalant to Catholics and Baptists for Christianity? Varied beliefs and traditions within the Christian denomination? So which ones are doing all the suicide bombing? Its not like I have my head in the sand regarding all of this, I just dont pay attention to the news as I should have.

Kind of. I'm kind of fuzzy on the details, but my understanding is that it had to do with a disagreement over succession when Mohammad died (Sunnis think the semi-elected caliphs, Shiites think his son-in-law).

Think more like that after Jesus died, a bunch of his followers had an argument over which apostle should run the church, one group chose one guy, another group chose another, and that they've been arguing about it ever since.

I don't think suicide bombing is unique to either group.

[BU BEAR]

I don't think suicide bombing is unique to either group.

Can you provide us with a scorecard of suicide bombings in the 20th and 21st century?

Christian suicide bombers- #X

Muslim suicide bombers- #Y

[royalfan5]

Can you provide us with a scorecard of suicide bombings in the 20th and 21st century?

Christian suicide bombers- #X

Muslim suicide bombers- #Y
I think he's talking about sunni and shia suicide bombers there, chief.

[Vaevictis]

Christian suicide bombers- #X

Muslim suicide bombers- #Y

Nope, but I'm pretty sure Y >> X.

Not that it matters. Suicide bombing isn't any worse, IMO, than non-suicide bombing.

EDIT: And yeah, I was originally referring to Sunni v. Shia bombing.

[SicEmBaylor]

I don't think anyone was trying to in some way say that Christian denominations are as bad as Muslim sects at producing violence. I think the original point was that you can look at Islamic sects in a similar way to Christian denominations. I think the point was one of organization not of method or doctrine.