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Sooner in Tampa
6/5/2007, 10:15 AM
According to Colin Cowherd this morning. :eek: Colin rode his butt pretty hard...he even asked "Hey Kevin, does your girlfriend play basketball?" :D

Beef
6/5/2007, 10:24 AM
I'm pretty sure I would take Durant over the majority of basketball players who can bench more than 185.

Frozen Sooner
6/5/2007, 10:47 AM
Cowherd is just trying to play up the Blazers picking Oden #1.

And what Beef said. I doubt that George Gervin could bench 185 either.

And I'm pretty sure Shaq couldn't bench that much when HE came into the league.

Sooner in Tampa
6/5/2007, 11:35 AM
I don't know...I really think that Cowherd is right. This could show a lack of work ethic. The NBA season is long and physical.

He also said that Durant will probably still go #2.

royalfan5
6/5/2007, 11:39 AM
I don't know...I really think that Cowherd is right. This could show a lack of work ethic. The NBA season is long and physical.

He also said that Durant will probably still go #2.
Or it could be the fact that the dudes 19 years old. I couldn't maintain muscle mass worth a **** until I was 22/23 years old.

King Crimson
6/5/2007, 11:39 AM
how much can Teyshan Prince bench?

Beef
6/5/2007, 11:44 AM
I'm thinking maybe a twizzler.

Newbomb Turk
6/5/2007, 11:44 AM
the OKC Sonics will put some muscle on Durant.

Sooner in Tampa
6/5/2007, 11:56 AM
Guys...he was the ONLY player at the combine that couldn't do one rep. I don't give a crap who drafts him...I just think that this should send a warning message.
Hell...everybody was sweating Vince about his low @$$ Wonderlick.

Collier11
6/5/2007, 11:56 AM
Who the hell cares. He can score 25 a night, how much could Kevin Garnett or Michael Jordan bench when they came in the league. Bench is basketball is the same as the 40 in football.

Collier11
6/5/2007, 11:58 AM
Mark Clayton couldnt bench 125lbs when he came to OU and when he left he was doing over 250lbs. All he needs is a good strength coach. Keep in mind, he is only 19 and he is lanky so it may be hard for him to add alot of muscle.

Frozen Sooner
6/5/2007, 12:00 PM
Who the hell cares. He can score 25 a night, how much could Kevin Garnett or Michael Jordan bench when they came in the league. Bench is basketball is the same as the 40 in football.

I'd argue that bench-particularly for a guard-in basketball is MUCH less important than the 40 is in football.

Newbomb Turk
6/5/2007, 12:03 PM
Stanley could probably dominate that weakling on the court.

King Crimson
6/5/2007, 12:05 PM
i don't care if he benches less in a year.....the kid can score the rock. he may turn out to be Kevin Garnett or Ron Mercer I dunno. but, he'll get his 20 in "the League".

Collier11
6/5/2007, 12:07 PM
This argument is no diff than if Jerry Rice was just coming out this year. well, the guy can only run a high 4.6, he may not make it. Those are just numbers, it all depends on how you perform and Durant dominated a bunch of people that are alot stronger than he was in the NBA.

fwsooner22
6/5/2007, 12:31 PM
One could argue that no basketball guard should be in the weight room period. It makes no difference what you bench.....he IS the real deal....I would not want to be the coach that put him in the weight room and "messed" him up............

toast
6/5/2007, 12:36 PM
I wonder what Larry Bird benched? Durant is a player, Cowherd is a moran.

Collier11
6/5/2007, 12:36 PM
One could argue that no basketball guard should be in the weight room period. It makes no difference what you bench.....he IS the real deal....I would not want to be the coach that put him in the weight room and "messed" him up............


Exactly, ever try to shoot a jumper after you lift?

Collier11
6/5/2007, 12:37 PM
I wonder what Larry Bird benched? Durant is a player, Cowherd is a moran.


Isn't Cowherd the same guy that called AD overrated or something ridiculous like that?

toast
6/5/2007, 12:45 PM
He said that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in reference to AD's dad and problems.

King Crimson
6/5/2007, 12:58 PM
Cowherd also lied about where he went to college and some other stuff. if Durant or AD had played for a pac 10 team the fellatio would never end.

i was out with the flu about a year and a half ago and listened to Cowherd for a week and came to have very little (if any) respect for the guy.

he's even worse than Jim Rome at contradicting himself over periods of time.

starrca23
6/5/2007, 01:02 PM
A better comparison is Rashard Lewis. He couldn't put on muscle for a while either. Durant will be fine.

Collier11
6/5/2007, 01:12 PM
Thats right, he was trying to say that AD was a punk or a thug or some sh*t like that. What a piece of crap, the audacity of some people to judge without even knowing makes me want to puke!!!

Rhino
6/5/2007, 01:31 PM
Coward is a toolbag.

I'd fire him for thinking bench press numbers mean anything for basketball players. What a horribly stupid non-issue.

Dio
6/5/2007, 01:36 PM
Kevin Durant's girlfriend could probably kick Colin Cowherd's ***.

Taxman71
6/5/2007, 02:33 PM
In fairness, Durant would have to heave the bar a good 6 feet just to do a single rep on the bench. I bet Cowerd isn't even that tall.

Eielson
6/5/2007, 02:38 PM
Or it could be the fact that the dudes 19 years old. I couldn't maintain muscle mass worth a **** until I was 22/23 years old.

First of all, muscle mass and muscle strength are two totally different things. Bodybuilders aren't nearly as strong as they look, powerlifters are usually much stronger than they look.

That's not really important though, so I'll point something out a little bit more important. He may be 19, but there are 14 year olds who work their butts off in the gym for several years and can bench 185 pounds.

However, you have to wonder if this is a negative or a plus. He is as good as he is right now, while still being that weak. He's going to get stronger a lot quicker than somebody that comes into the NBA with a 400 pound bench press.

You guys need to realize that this player is no weaker than the guy who torched the NCAA last year. He actually might be stronger than that guy was if he has been working at it.

King Crimson
6/5/2007, 02:40 PM
You guys need to realize that this player is no weaker than the guy who torched the NCAA last year. He actually might be stronger than that guy was if he has been working at it.

who do you mean by "you guys"? did you even read the thread?

JohnnyMack
6/5/2007, 02:43 PM
So back on subject, how many points would we have to give Durant to keep his matchup with Stanley close?

Eielson
6/5/2007, 02:46 PM
Exactly, ever try to shoot a jumper after you lift?

That's because of fatigue.

One weight session isn't going to do anything to your shot unless you hurt yourself, which is inexcusable to happen while you're being supervised by professionals.

We're not talking about adding 100 pounds to his bench press overnight. That would probably take around a year, which is like a few hundred thousand jump shots later. For a pro player going out and shooting 500 jump shots in a day is no big deal.

Eielson
6/5/2007, 02:52 PM
who do you mean by "you guys"? did you even read the thread?

Yes, I read the thread. I made a mistake with my wording.

Collier11
6/5/2007, 02:58 PM
That's because of fatigue.

One weight session isn't going to do anything to your shot unless you hurt yourself, which is inexcusable to happen while you're being supervised by professionals.



There is a reason that bball coaches tell you not to lift during the season and baseball coaches tell you not to play golf during the season. It can mess you up, shooting is mainly muscle memory and if you go trying to bulk up it can mess up your jumper pretty easily!

the_ouskull
6/5/2007, 08:34 PM
Many of you are underestimating the value of strength, especially at the NBA level. If he's benching 0 reps, then 1) it's an indicator of how hard he's willing to work in the weight room, and 2) he's going to literally be a boy going up against grown-*ssed men.

I'm going out now and saying that Kevin Durant will NOT win the ROY award. I'm not saying that he doesn't have the tools to be a great player, even at the NBA level, but right now, he does not have the strength to handle the players that are going to be guarding him, and ESPECIALLY the players that he is going to be guarding... I think that, once the grind of the season starts wearing him down, he's going to start settling for jump shots, and become outright mediocre. Call me crazy if you'd like, but he's going to be pretty ineffective on the boards until he learns how to gets him some muskles, and, without dominating the boards, he's just a scorer. Without playing in the post and on the wing, he's just a shooter. If an NBA-level defender can take away two of your three options, you are simply not going to dominate games consistantly...

the_ouskull

kbsooner
6/5/2007, 09:07 PM
There is a reason that bball coaches tell you not to lift during the season and baseball coaches tell you not to play golf during the season. It can mess you up, shooting is mainly muscle memory and if you go trying to bulk up it can mess up your jumper pretty easily!


Exactly. Weight training is an off season pursuit. No sane coach would have his players doing serious lifting during the season, it would be brick city. At most you would be doing light weigts with a lot of reps for the cardio, but at least 2 day minimum before a game..

Durant probably hardly saw a weight room in HS, strength training for most HS bball teams is a joke. Seeing as Durant did not have a serious summer at UT to put on some muscle mass, I doubt it is that big of a concern. He'll most likely be playing the 3 spot, so he won't be banging down low too often. His size will be a mismatch for most 3's in the league and his speed and range will be too much for 4's. I say he easily averages 17 his rookie season, the strength will come in time...

I really can't believe I just posted this about a Horn, but the guy is that good.

TopDawg
6/5/2007, 10:44 PM
I don't know about the bench press thing, but I've heard that his scrambled eggs are too runny.

OVER-RATED!

Eielson
6/5/2007, 11:01 PM
There is a reason that bball coaches tell you not to lift during the season and baseball coaches tell you not to play golf during the season. It can mess you up, shooting is mainly muscle memory and if you go trying to bulk up it can mess up your jumper pretty easily!

They're gonna lift some. Do you have any idea how much strength they would lose by running that much and never lifting weights? You're worried about strength levels changing, but they would still change, just for the worse. They might not train to get stronger during the season, but they would to maintain. Some might not lift, but that's just in their ignorance. I do agree with the fact that bulking up can mess up your shot, but it's awfully difficult to bulk up in the middle of a season. They're muscles won't get bigger, just maybe a little stronger, or maintain their strength.

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 02:02 AM
Danny, I disagree with you about how important strength is to Durant's game. Sure, there's a lot of really strong players in the NBA, but Durant's game isn't based around posting anyone up or backing them down. It's based on flashing to the rim or coming off of screens. Certainly some muscle will help him round out his game, but I don't think there's going to be that big of a problem getting him bulked up a bit.

And like I pointed out earlier in the thread, I think Shaq was in the same boat when he got to the NBA.

OSUAggie
6/6/2007, 07:40 AM
Well.... Durant did play with his back to the basket quite a bit last year...

He'd typically just spin and hit a fadeaway 18-footer.

In the NBA he'll get pushed back far enough where he'll have to hit a fadeaway 20-footer. I don't think it'll be a big deal.

Scott D
6/6/2007, 09:45 AM
Danny, I disagree with you about how important strength is to Durant's game. Sure, there's a lot of really strong players in the NBA, but Durant's game isn't based around posting anyone up or backing them down. It's based on flashing to the rim or coming off of screens. Certainly some muscle will help him round out his game, but I don't think there's going to be that big of a problem getting him bulked up a bit.

And like I pointed out earlier in the thread, I think Shaq was in the same boat when he got to the NBA.

well the primary difference between 20 year old Shaq and 19 year old Durant is what? 5" and about 30 lbs of body mass?

skull, you're not throwing bodytypes into the equation at all. a 6'2 guy has a better chance of getting decent reps at 185 than a guy who is 6'10, especially if both have the same lean body type.

Taxman71
6/6/2007, 10:11 AM
I don't see Durant being grossly weaker (muscle-wise) than Tracy McGrady, Penny Hardaway and other similar players. Especially, since he hasn't had a post-high school off-season yet to do any strength training. Besides, I think that time working on his jumper paid off better for him last year.

Collier11
6/6/2007, 10:28 AM
Many of you are underestimating the value of strength, especially at the NBA level. If he's benching 0 reps, then 1) it's an indicator of how hard he's willing to work in the weight room, and 2) he's going to literally be a boy going up against grown-*ssed men.

I'm going out now and saying that Kevin Durant will NOT win the ROY award. I'm not saying that he doesn't have the tools to be a great player, even at the NBA level, but right now, he does not have the strength to handle the players that are going to be guarding him, and ESPECIALLY the players that he is going to be guarding... I think that, once the grind of the season starts wearing him down, he's going to start settling for jump shots, and become outright mediocre. Call me crazy if you'd like, but he's going to be pretty ineffective on the boards until he learns how to gets him some muskles, and, without dominating the boards, he's just a scorer. Without playing in the post and on the wing, he's just a shooter. If an NBA-level defender can take away two of your three options, you are simply not going to dominate games consistantly...

the_ouskull


I see completely what you are saying, but if you look at guys like Garnett, Jordan, McGrady, etc... they were all scrawny when they came to the NBA and ended up fine. My point is, get them with a NBA strength coach and let him figure out exactly what his body needs to fill out and he will be fine.

Jeopardude
6/6/2007, 10:40 AM
So am I to assume he can bench 184 lbs?

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 10:43 AM
well the primary difference between 20 year old Shaq and 19 year old Durant is what? 5" and about 30 lbs of body mass?

skull, you're not throwing bodytypes into the equation at all. a 6'2 guy has a better chance of getting decent reps at 185 than a guy who is 6'10, especially if both have the same lean body type.

Sure. But Durant's armspan is about 7' if I recall correctly. And Shaq managed to play a power game pretty impressively at that strength level.

stoopified
6/6/2007, 10:46 AM
Personally I don't care about Durant one way or another aside from being glad he is OUTTA the Big 12.That said the dude is a TALENT,who will play mostly AWAY from the basket.IMHO he is a born 3 and won't be posting up on 4's and 5's so strength is less an issue tha quickness and agility.

Collier11
6/6/2007, 10:58 AM
Great quote from Rick Barnes about the situation, "If people question his strength, they're stupid," Texas' Rick Barnes said Tuesday, according to The Dallas Morning News. "If they are looking for weight lifters to come out of Texas, that's not what we're producing. There are a lot of guys who can bench press 300 pounds in the NBA who couldn't play dead in a cowboy movie. Kevin's the best player in the draft -- period, at any position." Gotta Love it!!!

Sooner in Tampa
6/6/2007, 11:16 AM
Great quote from Rick Barnes about the situation, "If people question his strength, they're stupid," Texas' Rick Barnes said Tuesday, according to The Dallas Morning News. "If they are looking for weight lifters to come out of Texas, that's not what we're producing. There are a lot of guys who can bench press 300 pounds in the NBA who couldn't play dead in a cowboy movie. Kevin's the best player in the draft -- period, at any position." Gotta Love it!!!I could agree with Barnes on everything EXCEPT that.

Scott D
6/6/2007, 11:33 AM
Sure. But Durant's armspan is about 7' if I recall correctly. And Shaq managed to play a power game pretty impressively at that strength level.

Durant is more like a Tayshaun Prince body type. Shaq was already about the same weight as Durant is now when he was a 6'6" 13 year old. And when he was drafted Shaq was 7'1" 301 lbs.

Scott D
6/6/2007, 11:34 AM
Great quote from Rick Barnes about the situation, "If people question his strength, they're stupid," Texas' Rick Barnes said Tuesday, according to The Dallas Morning News. "If they are looking for weight lifters to come out of Texas, that's not what we're producing. There are a lot of guys who can bench press 300 pounds in the NBA who couldn't play dead in a cowboy movie. Kevin's the best player in the draft -- period, at any position." Gotta Love it!!!

he might be the the best 'at this moment', but there are players behind him who will develop more, and the guy in front of him has something that you can't coach.

Sooner in Tampa
6/6/2007, 11:35 AM
I would have to give Oden the nod as the best player in the draft this.

The Maestro
6/6/2007, 11:55 AM
Here is some of the dumbest information I have ever read from espn.com about the issue...

"According to the Times, Durant was the only prospect at camp who failed to bench press 185 pounds, and finished behind Oden in some key drills, including the vertical leap, agility drill and three-quarter court sprint.


Oden jumped 34 inches in the vertical leap while Durant jumped 33½ inches, completed the agility drill in 11.67 seconds to Durant's 12.33 seconds, and finished the three-quarter court sprint in 3.27 seconds, ahead of Durant's 3.45 seconds, according to the report. "

OH NO! A half inch difference in vertical! .66 seconds difference in the agility drill! And .18 seconds difference in the three-quarter court sprint! Durant is a BUST! A bust, I tell ya!

Do these guys know anything about basketball? Tell Kansas in that first half how bad Durant is at hoops.

Collier11
6/6/2007, 12:00 PM
I really and honestly don't understand the infatuation with Oden. Now don't get me wrong, I think he will be a star in the NBA, I just dont see him being any kind of an offensive presence. I could be totally wrong and eat my words, but I see him as someone who can be a defensive stopper ala Ben Wallace with the offensive game of a 15-18ppg scorer. Is that really equivalent of the best pure center since shaq which is what all the experts have been saying. Like I said, obviously im NO expert but I did watch the guy several times this year and he struggled to score against D1 talent at times?

Scott D
6/6/2007, 12:14 PM
I really and honestly don't understand the infatuation with Oden. Now don't get me wrong, I think he will be a star in the NBA, I just dont see him being any kind of an offensive presence. I could be totally wrong and eat my words, but I see him as someone who can be a defensive stopper ala Ben Wallace with the offensive game of a 15-18ppg scorer. Is that really equivalent of the best pure center since shaq which is what all the experts have been saying. Like I said, obviously im NO expert but I did watch the guy several times this year and he struggled to score against D1 talent at times?

you can't coach 7'. He seems to have good rebounding instincts. He also has a relatively soft touch with the ball, can shoot with either hand (not by choice), is a decent free throw shooter. And has good body size to compete with the larger big men in the league.

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 12:34 PM
he might be the the best 'at this moment', but there are players behind him who will develop more, and the guy in front of him has something that you can't coach.

The maturity that comes from having lived through the Depression?


(Based on workouts and such, I don't think the Blazers will be wrong to draft Sam Bowie...er, Greg Oden. I just think the Sonics are getting a damn fine player in Durant.)

stoops the eternal pimp
6/6/2007, 01:45 PM
Bench isnt important to basketball players...How strong his legs are would seem like a bigger issue than chest strength..With his arm length he s not gonna be a strong bencher....and you can have strong arms and have a crappy bench...when i first got in the gym i could curl as much as I could bench..I did very little weight training playing college basketball because coaches didnt want us throwing off our shot

Scott D
6/6/2007, 02:14 PM
The maturity that comes from having lived through the Depression?


(Based on workouts and such, I don't think the Blazers will be wrong to draft Sam Bowie...er, Greg Oden. I just think the Sonics are getting a damn fine player in Durant.)

ahh I see you heard about the Spartan (not Ike) who taunted Oden by asking him what World War 2 was like. ;)

I agree that Durant will be a fine fine player, and he offers the kind of versatility that you want from a small forward/shooting guard that he'll be. But players like Oden are so rare, it will be interesting to see how he fills out. Will the Blazers follow the plan the Rockets have used for Yao Ming, or will he end up all oversized like Shaq.

rankin07
6/6/2007, 03:50 PM
how much can Teyshan Prince bench?


ha there's your proof right there...he's skinniest guy in the NBA and he's only going to be on the US Olympic team..and has been a big part of Detroit's success...

JohnnyMack
6/6/2007, 04:24 PM
IMHO he is a born 3 and won't be posting up on 4's and 5's so strength is less an issue tha quickness and agility.

Yup.

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 05:49 PM
ahh I see you heard about the Spartan (not Ike) who taunted Oden by asking him what World War 2 was like. ;)

I agree that Durant will be a fine fine player, and he offers the kind of versatility that you want from a small forward/shooting guard that he'll be. But players like Oden are so rare, it will be interesting to see how he fills out. Will the Blazers follow the plan the Rockets have used for Yao Ming, or will he end up all oversized like Shaq.

Heh. Nah, I've been making that same joke since he played in the McD's game.

Scott D
6/6/2007, 07:02 PM
Heh. Nah, I've been making that same joke since he played in the McD's game.

my favorite was the guy at Indiana who had a sign that said "Larry Legend told us that you finally retired Robert."

the_ouskull
6/6/2007, 07:56 PM
Danny, I disagree with you about how important strength is to Durant's game. Sure, there's a lot of really strong players in the NBA, but Durant's game isn't based around posting anyone up or backing them down. It's based on flashing to the rim or coming off of screens. Certainly some muscle will help him round out his game, but I don't think there's going to be that big of a problem getting him bulked up a bit.

And like I pointed out earlier in the thread, I think Shaq was in the same boat when he got to the NBA.

Durant's game is going to be about coming off of picks, and flashing to the rim. Situations in which he's going to be forced to flash on the pick, usually by someone stronger, or he's going to be cutting into the lane, heading towards someone that's going to put him on his back almost every time. And all of that discounts the fact that he's going to get killed 1) if he ever posts up, which, as a forward, he's going to have to expect to do. (He can't guard NBA 2's...) 2) when he's on defense, they're going to literally kill him. They're going to take him into the post or run him into some hard picks, a lot. I think he's going to have to play limited minutes or he's going to get hurt... or both.

The kid has an "it" factor to him, no doubt about it. But, right now, he's going to be a boy; albeit a talented and athletic boy, playing against men. After a year or two, we'll see what he can become, if it's going to be positive. If it's going to be negative, we'll know really soon. It's all about how much he adapts to the NBA game, and how well he holds up. Nobody doubts what the kid can do with the ball in his hands. It's what he does when it's not in his hands, on both ends of the court, that determines the kind of player he's going to become.

And, on to Shaq...

Shaq tore down an entire rim and backboard in his rookie year, against Phoenix or the Kings, I think. He also physically dominated Patrick Ewing.

Also, I saw it and let it go earlier, but Shaq was far from weak when he got to the league. His strength was the basis for his game. The fact that he has speed and amazing footwork is what made him unfair. The strength was always there.

the_ouskull

Collier11
6/6/2007, 08:02 PM
Durant's game is going to be about coming off of picks, and flashing to the rim. Situations in which he's going to be forced to flash on the pick, usually by someone stronger, or he's going to be cutting into the lane, heading towards someone that's going to put him on his back almost every time. And all of that discounts the fact that he's going to get killed 1) if he ever posts up, which, as a forward, he's going to have to expect to do. (He can't guard NBA 2's...) 2) when he's on defense, they're going to literally kill him. They're going to take him into the post or run him into some hard picks, a lot. I think he's going to have to play limited minutes or he's going to get hurt... or both.

The kid has an "it" factor to him, no doubt about it. But, right now, he's going to be a boy; albeit a talented and athletic boy, playing against men. After a year or two, we'll see what he can become, if it's going to be positive. If it's going to be negative, we'll know really soon. It's all about how much he adapts to the NBA game, and how well he holds up. Nobody doubts what the kid can do with the ball in his hands. It's what he does when it's not in his hands, on both ends of the court, that determines the kind of player he's going to become.

And, on to Shaq...

Shaq tore down an entire rim and backboard in his rookie year, against Phoenix or the Kings, I think. He also physically dominated Patrick Ewing.

Also, I saw it and let it go earlier, but Shaq was far from weak when he got to the league. His strength was the basis for his game. The fact that he has speed and amazing footwork is what made him unfair. The strength was always there.

the_ouskull

Dont agree skull, sorry! Between the time he gets drafted and the time he plays his first game he will undoubtedly put on some lean muscle which is what he needs. Look at pics of Mcgrady and KG when they were rookies, I doubt there is that much diff between Durant now.

Having said that, I do agree with you that he needs to put on some muscle, but he will be fine IMHO!

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 08:09 PM
C'mon, Danny. Sure, Shaq was strong-but he couldn't bench crap. His strength was in his legs. Ripping a backboard down has more to do with being heavy than it does strong.

the_ouskull
6/6/2007, 08:12 PM
Also, I think that the Tayshawn Prince comparisions are fair, except for Tayshawn carved his niche as a defensive / hustle player, and Durant is NOT going to be a defensive presense.

-- 3.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg (granted, in limited minutes)
-- 10.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.3 apg
-- 14.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.0 apg, 48.7% shooting, a career high. It's not a coincidence that his best statistical season coincides with his best shooting season.
-- 14.1 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2,3 apg
-- 14.3 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 2.8 apg

I think that Durant can follow a similiar path. I think he'll score more, eventually, but, if he's not shooting a high percentage, then his other stats are going to be below par, and he'll be more like Michael Redd than Michael Jordan.

the_ouskull

the_ouskull
6/6/2007, 08:24 PM
C'mon, Danny. Sure, Shaq was strong-but he couldn't bench crap. His strength was in his legs. Ripping a backboard down has more to do with being heavy than it does strong.

What does dominating Big Pat have to do with? It's not like Ralph Sampson's spindly *ss did... in the league. And, regardless of where it's located, strength is strength. Some players are strong all-around, like a Karl Malone. Some players only have strong legs, and some only have strong arms. Regardless, they could all be considered "strong" players. Kevin Durant will not be considered, by anybody, to be a strong player.

Also, I think it was Colley...

I'm not saying that he's not going to become a good player. I'm saying that he's not going to start off as one. Putting on the necessary weight to compete at the highest level of which he is capable would actually be detrimental if he did it over the course of one summer. It's going to be a process... Also, it's not like he didn't lift weights (allegedly) while he was at Tejas, and he didn't seem to get any bigger there. It's going to be a matter of how he adapts his game to a stronger level of competition. Like I said above... If he shoots a high percentage, then his other stats will also fall in line, and he'll be fine. Not a star yet, but a good, solid, exciting player. If he's not shooting a high percentage, he's going to have problems... both seeing playing time, and while he's on the court, 'cause that's when he's going to start going to the basket, and that's when he'll get hurt.

None of this is me wanting to see him do poorly... This is just me making an honest evaluation of his game, as it stands currently.

And, finally, Danny Bonaduce is freakin' weird.

the_ouskull

Frozen Sooner
6/6/2007, 09:03 PM
Big Pat?

You mean the guy who's won exactly as many championships as Kevin Durant has right now?

the_ouskull
6/6/2007, 11:36 PM
Are you honestly comparing Patrick freaking Ewing to Shaq? Really? Well, all of Shaq's rings, and shots at rings, came with another All-Star caliber guard on his team, all of whom have been 1st All-NBA at some point, not just All-Stars: Penny, Kobe, and D Wade.

Who all did Patrick Ewing play with? Greg Anthony, Hubert Davis, Allan Houston, and John Starks. Of those four, only Houston and Starks were ever considered "good" players, with Houston making two all-star teams... AFTER EWING LEFT... and Starks being known, at least in my book, for three things... 1) The Dunk. 2) 2-18. 3) Don Nelson's story about how dumb he is. (He was asked to sign an autograph by a fan, who said, "It's Marc, with a C." Starks signed it to "Carc.")

Shaq is a dominant player, and an argument can be made that he made those All-NBA players into the players that they were at the time... at least in Penny's case, 'cause both Kobe and D Wade have done it since without Shaq. Penny hasn't, to say the least, although he did suffer some pretty serious injuries... Patrick Ewing was also a dominant player... I just feel that he wasn't fortunate enough to play with a dominant perimeter player during his prime.

Also, it's not like Ewing was the only center that Shaq physically dominated. He's physically dominated every single player he's ever played against except a falling apart, beaten-up, wore-out Arvydas Sabonis. He dominated Hakeem... The Admiral... Alonzo... Dikembe... Ostertag... HEY. Greg. Get off of my computer!

I'm back.

Saying that Shaq isn't a dominant physical presense is silly, Mike, and his strength has almost everything to do with that. He's a mountain that, in his prime anyway, moved like a molehill. He was named to the 50 Greatest Players Ever list... He was one of 12 centers named, so it's not like they had to include him for posterity, or to "fill out the rosters." He's Shaq because of his physical dominance, which is predicated off of his strength.

I'm saying "f*ck it" and going out on a limb now. We're going to see a lot more Michael Redd in Kevin Durant than we are Kevin Garnett... especially if he doesn't get any taller. He's too scrawny to play in the post, doesn't handle the ball well enough to stay on the perimeter full-time in the NBA, and, until he proves he can consistantly knock down J's in the NBA, I promise, he's going to get a chance to. Will Durant be ready in a few years...? Yes, if he works hard. That's up to him though...

I think that he's going to make the All-Rookie team, unless he gets hurt for an extended period of time, the odds of which I'd put at about 60%. I think he'll average about 12-15 points per game, and probably about 4 boards. If he's putting up those stats, but also getting 4 assists per, he'll be okay. He shoots greater than 50% from the field, he'll be more than okay, but, rIght now, he should be setting his goals on becoming Pau Gasol. He can worry about KG once he's able to play with his back to the basket a bit...

the_ouskull

Frozen Sooner
6/7/2007, 12:58 AM
Saying that Shaq isn't a dominant physical presense is silly, Mike, and his strength has almost everything to do with that. He's a mountain that, in his prime anyway, moved like a molehill. He was named to the 50 Greatest Players Ever list... He was one of 12 centers named, so it's not like they had to include him for posterity, or to "fill out the rosters." He's Shaq because of his physical dominance, which is predicated off of his strength.


Not once have I said that Shaq wasn't a strong or physically dominant center. What I said was that when he got to the league, his bench press was atrocious. It was. I'm not making that up, D. I pretty clearly remember the story when he was first coming out of college.

His bench has since gone up an amazing amount, by the way. He's over 400 by most reports.

Ash
6/7/2007, 11:22 AM
I'd worry about a so-called world class athlete that couldn't bench his own weight at least ONCE. Not because basketball players all need to be weightlifters, but because it makes me question his work ethic in other areas of training - such as endurance, speed and agility. It doesn't help that Oden outperformed him in every drill incuding speed drills.

Maybe he just didn't give a flip, but it certainly doesn't make for a good impression.

Scott D
6/7/2007, 11:47 AM
I'd worry about a so-called world class athlete that couldn't bench his own weight at least ONCE. Not because basketball players all need to be weightlifters, but because it makes me question his work ethic in other areas of training - such as endurance, speed and agility. It doesn't help that Oden outperformed him in every drill incuding speed drills.

Maybe he just didn't give a flip, but it certainly doesn't make for a good impression.

we already had the explanation of how it can be difficult for a tall individual with a wingspan of a person 5-7 inches taller than them with a very lean body type to do full repetitions in a bench press with any cumulative amount of weight. That body type is better off tested with curls, and triceps work than by how much they can bench press.

Ash
6/7/2007, 11:50 AM
we already had the explanation of how it can be difficult for a tall individual with a wingspan of a person 5-7 inches taller than them with a very lean body type to do full repetitions in a bench press with any cumulative amount of weight. That body type is better off tested with curls, and triceps work than by how much they can bench press.

And I've been around athletes with wingspans that were longer than their height and it never prevented them from doing any kind of press. I'm calling BS on that.

Collier11
6/7/2007, 11:58 AM
And I've been around athletes with wingspans that were longer than their height and it never prevented them from doing any kind of press. I'm calling BS on that.


I seriously doubt that you have been around his specific body type mixed with his wing span that were extremely strong in the bench press at the age of 18. Not very likely.

Ash
6/7/2007, 12:01 PM
I seriously doubt that you have been around his specific body type mixed with his wing span that were extremely strong in the bench press at the age of 18. Not very likely.

Nope. But a 6'6" guy with a 7 foot wingspan who did just fine in the weight room.

Collier11
6/7/2007, 12:10 PM
Nope. But a 6'6" guy with a 7 foot wingspan who did just fine in the weight room.


How much did he honestly weigh? Durant is a small lanky guy for his height, it makes a big diff!

jccouger
6/7/2007, 12:11 PM
Does anybody know what Shaqs bench was when he first came to the league?

Ash
6/7/2007, 01:11 PM
How much did he honestly weigh? Durant is a small lanky guy for his height, it makes a big diff!

I don't know how much he weighed, but he was a thin guy, a basketball player. But you've got a point, he was bigger than Durant. And maybe he had to work harder at it, but it never came up.

I'm just giving MHO that Durant could possibly do better, and from my perspective it makes me question other aspects of his training regimen.

No doubt the kid has game, he proved that. But endurance does come into play in the NBA with the long schedule.

The_Red_Patriot
6/7/2007, 01:35 PM
Who gives a damn.


The guy can dominate.

Its Basketball, not a big deal

Ash
6/7/2007, 01:38 PM
Who gives a damn.


The guy can dominate.

Its Basketball, not a big deal

Until he has to guard a bigger, stronger player at the same position. Then he's pwn3d.

Collier11
6/7/2007, 01:42 PM
I don't know how much he weighed, but he was a thin guy, a basketball player. But you've got a point, he was bigger than Durant. And maybe he had to work harder at it, but it never came up.

I'm just giving MHO that Durant could possibly do better, and from my perspective it makes me question other aspects of his training regimen.

No doubt the kid has game, he proved that. But endurance does come into play in the NBA with the long schedule.


I agree that he needs to get stronger and in better overall shape, but I can see where his body type and only being 18 could be a problem for him rather than him just being lazy

Ash
6/7/2007, 02:19 PM
I agree that he needs to get stronger and in better overall shape, but I can see where his body type and only being 18 could be a problem for him rather than him just being lazy

Yeah, I could see where it might just be a development issue. It still sends out red flags to me, but I'm not an NBA GM...so there you go.

Collier11
6/7/2007, 02:24 PM
I always feel so violated when I end up agreeing with someone who I didnt agree with at the beginning of the discussion...I need a shower! ;)

Ash
6/7/2007, 02:31 PM
I always feel so violated when I end up agreeing with someone who I didnt agree with at the beginning of the discussion...I need a shower! ;)

:hot:

the_ouskull
6/7/2007, 03:33 PM
Shaq as rookie...

http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-42/33-42833-F.jpg

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-07/24414225.jpg

http://www.worldathletes.com/sports_biographies/images/shaq_oneal.jpg

Here he looks like he's got a slightly larger musculature than Hakeem even...

And as for Kevin Durant...

http://media.dailycamera.com/bdc/content/img/photos/2007/01/06/Colorado_Texas_COBOU101_02_t600.jpg

http://www.texassports.com/image_lib/durant_kevin_120206_300.jpg

http://www.i-pets.com/pics/product/60030.jpg

I'm not saying that you're wrong about all of that "Shaq couldn't lift" stuff, Mike, but I am saying that 1) I don't remember any of it, and 2) he doesn't look weak in any of his photos. Also, I remember his rookie season very well. I remember him dominating every player he played against and I remember him bringing down a backboard.

the_ouskull

TopDawg
6/7/2007, 05:16 PM
Until he has to guard a bigger, stronger player at the same position. Then he's pwn3d.

HAHAHAHA! Dude, it's the NBA. Nobody plays defense. Especially in the West, where it looks like he's headed.

Scott D
6/7/2007, 05:26 PM
skully, Barkley's fat *** brought down a backboard once also ;)

Scott D
6/7/2007, 05:28 PM
And I've been around athletes with wingspans that were longer than their height and it never prevented them from doing any kind of press. I'm calling BS on that.

I said it could be more difficult. It still varies from athlete to athlete. Besides, look at those pictures skull posted a few posts ago. Durant has the arms of a 6 year old.

sanantoniosooner
6/7/2007, 06:27 PM
HAHAHAHA! Dude, it's the NBA. Nobody plays defense. Especially in the West, where it looks like he's headed.
:confused:

Spurs?

Typically the best defense in the entire league year in and out.

Frozen Sooner
6/7/2007, 06:28 PM
Well, one thing's for sure.

Durant won't have to lift 185 to stick his foot under another player's or to knee them in the nads.

sanantoniosooner
6/7/2007, 06:46 PM
Or to whine like a little beyatch

12
6/8/2007, 06:01 AM
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j200/zebthethird/durant.jpg

TopDawg
6/8/2007, 09:45 AM
:confused:

Spurs?

Typically the best defense in the entire league year in and out.

Surely you didn't think I was speaking literally when I said "nobody", right?

TopDawg
6/8/2007, 09:46 AM
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j200/zebthethird/durant.jpg

Hey 12, did Durant ever give you a kidney?

Scott D
6/8/2007, 02:45 PM
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j200/zebthethird/durant.jpg

there's the answer, Kevin Durant just needed more photos by the guys who do Men's Health Magazine ;)

KingDavid
6/9/2007, 11:09 AM
While Durant can't lift 185 lbs, he probably can lift his team into the playoffs and ultimately to an NBA championship, IMO. So really now, who cares? All my best to a very solid young man with an incredible work ethic, who will represent the Big XII with pride. The strength will come over time. We're lucky we got to have him play in our league even for a season.

I hope Barnes can land a dozen more like him over the next ten years, because we'll be right there along for the ride. It will lift the caliber of play for the whole conference and maybe we'll see the Big XII, and more importantly, the SOONERS! take home a NC!

Frozen Sooner
6/9/2007, 11:27 AM
You know, much as I like Greg Oden and am in no way comparing Kevin Durant to Michael Jordan, this whole thing has a Sam Bowie and Olden Polynice over Michael Jordan feel to it. Especially considering it is the Blazers and they're in a similar position having the returning ROY.

Scott D
6/9/2007, 01:54 PM
You know, much as I like Greg Oden and am in no way comparing Kevin Durant to Michael Jordan, this whole thing has a Sam Bowie and Olden Polynice over Michael Jordan feel to it. Especially considering it is the Blazers and they're in a similar position having the returning ROY.

I was thinking it was more of a Brad Dougherty with Mark Price scenario for Oden, but to each their own ;)

Collier11
6/9/2007, 09:20 PM
Greg Oden is nothing more than a glorified Theo Ratliff, IMHO! What has he done to garner so much attention..he will be a great Defensive player and a average offensive player!

starrca23
6/9/2007, 09:50 PM
Olden Polynice was traded for the draft rights to Scottie Pippen. The only players picked before MJ were Akeem (added the H later) and Sam B.

Oden had a legit game in the Ship, and don't forget he had a bad hand for most of the year.

Ash
6/10/2007, 10:55 AM
While Durant can't lift 185 lbs, he probably can lift his team into the playoffs and ultimately to an NBA championship, IMO. So really now, who cares? All my best to a very solid young man with an incredible work ethic, who will represent the Big XII with pride. The strength will come over time. We're lucky we got to have him play in our league even for a season.

I hope Barnes can land a dozen more like him over the next ten years, because we'll be right there along for the ride. It will lift the caliber of play for the whole conference and maybe we'll see the Big XII, and more importantly, the SOONERS! take home a NC!

Huh? I should be grateful if the whorns get lottery-pick level talent year in and year out??? And how does that help OU get a NC????

...and we have people on the football boards taking up for whorn players who have been arrested. What the **** has happened to this site?

royalfan5
6/10/2007, 01:10 PM
Greg Oden is nothing more than a glorified Theo Ratliff, IMHO! What has he done to garner so much attention..he will be a great Defensive player and a average offensive player!
He did play most of the past season on offense with his non-dominant hand because of wrist injury. That may have affected things. Also his collegiate numbers as freshman were very comparable to other high quality centers as college freshmen.
Oden went for 15.7 and 9.6 as a freshman.
O'Neill went for 13.9 and 12 as a freshman
Ewing went for 12.7 and 7.5 as a freshman
Olajuwon went for 8.3 and 6.2 as a freshman.

LittleWingSooner
6/10/2007, 05:39 PM
Greg Oden is a freak and will be one of the best in the game in the NBA. He should be the number 1 pick

But Durant is a freak of a basketball player and will prove that in the NBA. But there are more Kevin Durant type players then there are Greg Oden type players in the NBA right now.

sanantoniosooner
6/10/2007, 05:43 PM
The NBA needs more freaks since Rodman retired.

Collier11
6/10/2007, 06:28 PM
I may end up being wrong, though as I said all along I see him being a superstar...Just dont know if he is #1 worthy