Sportsillustrated.com-Bush,USC, OU sanctions

[The_Red_Patriot]

Pretty good read.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/05/29/cfb.mailbag/index.html

[illinisooner]

Just beat me to it. He makes a real good point about how the NCAA really can't do anything because Bush isn't in school anymore. I'm thinking that USC won't get off completely free, but they won't get punished as much as they should.

[CincySooner]

speaking of OUs pending sanctions...

anyone know when the NCAA is going to send the bad news?

[The Maestro]

NCAA is screwed up?

In other news, orange juice apparently comes from oranges.

[Collier11]

Correct me if im wrong, but didnt these Bush allegations come out while he was still enrolled in school? Im pretty sure they did, and if that is the case then the NCAA def. dropped the ball on that one

[OSUAggie]

It came out offseason of the '05-'06 school year, I believe. He was NFL-bound. All the NCAA could've done was tell him he can't play anymore, which, I'm guessing, probably would have been just fine for him.

[sooner518]

thinking about all of this makes my head hurt

[oumartin]

they punish the school not the player! Bomar and Quinn aren't at OU anymore so OU can't be punished?

[KABOOKIE]

they punish the school not the player! Bomar and Quinn aren't at OU anymore so OU can't be punished?


Nope. OU will be punished because we're OU. USC, Tejas and ND get free passes.

[mxATVracer10]

somebody care to do a copy & paste for the ones that are less fortunate and get pwn3d by work web police?

[Collier11]

I honestly think we will be just fine...I think that despite the NCAA's record as being unjust ****** rockets, Ou has done enough to get nothing more than perhaps a public slap on the wrist.

Having said that, based on everything that Boren and Castiglione have said about the process, if we get anything heavier than what we self-imposed, I think we can expect a long drawn out appeal or possible law suit!!

[Collier11]

There are about two pages worth of info on the USC situation but here is the part that deals directly with OU

Why does it appear that the NCAA is not doing anything about the Reggie Bush scandal at USC but is going after Oklahoma, which voluntarily came forward with its scandal and even ejected players off the team? Meanwhile, USC coaches have Reggie Bush on conference calls helping land recruits. When is USC going to get slapped with probation?
--Jason, Daphne, Ala.

What kind of sanctions do you think will come down on USC for the Reggie Bush scandal? If that had happened at Alabama, they'd be talking about the death penalty.
--Jason, Pensacola, Fla.

The two Jasons have hit on one of the most confounding aspects of NCAA justice, which is the perception that the organization practices selective enforcement. (It's such a polarizing issue, in fact, it comprises an entire chapter in my book, Bowls, Polls, and Tattered Souls, in bookstores Aug. 24. That's shameless plug No. 2 if you're keeping track.)

If you're an Alabama fan, and you've watched the NCAA drop the hammer on your program twice in recent years -- including one instance, much like this one, where the primary violation involved an agent's dealings with a player (Antonio Langham) -- you've got to be going bonkers watching the NCAA seemingly drag its heels regarding USC.

If you're an Oklahoma fan, and your program is about to get hit with sanctions over a couple of players (Rhett Bomar and J.D. Quinn) who accepted a few thousand dollars, you must be wondering why the NCAA isn't going ballistic over the Bush violations, which allegedly involve hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But once again, when it comes to the NCAA, it's all about what's easiest to prosecute. The Oklahoma matter involved active players who had no choice but to cooperate if they wanted to continue their playing careers, and the school also benefited from a change of ownership at the crooked car dealership where the players "worked" -- the new owners were willing to turn over documents and agree to interviews. Oklahoma was highly proactive in investigating the allegations; however, the NCAA is still accusing the school of not properly monitoring the players' employment.

USC has also cooperated with the authorities -- Pete Carroll and other coaches have reportedly been interviewed -- but so far there has been little to suggest they were in a position to know what benefits Bush was or wasn't receiving. The most direct accusation involving the school is that the agents in question were allowed access to the Trojans' locker room and sideline. If true, that's obviously shady, but technically not illegal. (Agents can talk to players all they want, they just can't do business with them.)

[bri]

Stewart, if the NCAA finds that Bush did illegally accept gifts/money from agents while he was playing for USC, what are the chances that his Heisman gets stripped, and more importantly, will Vince Young be awarded the Heisman as he should have been in the first place?
--Justin McKinnerney, Austin, Texas

Re. Tard.

If VY should have gotten the Heisman, then he would have actually won it "in the first place". It's not like Reggie Bush's agent bought it for him. :rolleyes:

Besides, if the Heisman Trust isn't gonna formally strip someone of the title for double murder...Living rent-free and taking some payments probably doesn't merit it either. :D

[FaninAma]

If the NCAA fails to act in the USC case then they've given the rest of the D-1 programs the blueprint on how to skirt the rules and avoid punishment. A precedent will have been set.

I actually think there is more going on at USC but the NCAA is not following up on the leads or putting enough pressure on the coaches and administrators at the program.

If I were the NCAA I'd be telling them to come clean now or face much more severe sanctions n the future if the real stroy finally comes out.

[bri]

Well like the article says, there's only so much the NCAA can do. All the current USC staff have cooperated, but the people that they NEED to "interview" (i.e., the agent, the Bush family, the dude that owned the house they lived in) all refuse to cooperate with the investigation. And the NCAA can't force them to go along with the inquest any more than they could force you or me to come in for a chat.

[oumartin]

lesson learned. don't cooperate!

[JDawg2303]

Yeah this is totally ridiculous. We show some class and honesty and possibly get severely punished (our sanctions + theirs) but USC (a bunch of rich snot-nosed preppies) gets away with this plus probably more. The NCAA really shows fairness. I love the double-standard they are setting. *side note* notice that OJ Simpson also went to USC. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it.

[TexasLidig8r]

lesson learned. don't cooperate!

uh. yeah.. that really worked out well for SMU. :rolleyes:

and, I wonder why the author didn't mention that the FBI was investigating the matter, and the Attorney General in San Diego had opened an investigation, including issuing subpoenas for various persons to testify before a grand jury.

This necessarily slowed down the process against USC since the NCAA knows not to step on the toes of the feds. If Bush, the agent and others don't want to talk, the NCAA probably has inroads with various agencies and can probably obtain the incriminating evidence they need.

[Octavian]

Oklahoma was highly proactive in investigating the allegations; however, the NCAA is still accusing the school of not properly monitoring the players' employment.



There's no evidence that the program was cheating. The investigators know this...the story is the same from all involved:


The rules were explained to the players...the players broke the rules....the players lied about breaking the rules...the players were outted and kicked off.


So now the program is being charged with failure to monitor (ie. not knowing enough)...basically telling OU to prove a negative.


That's fun.


IF OU receives probation because the program and administration didn't know what was going on...then OU was screwed as soon as Bomar and Quinn decided to break the rules they'd been told not to break.

[OSUAggie]

There's no evidence that the program was cheating. The investigators know this...the story is the same from all involved:


The rules were explained to the players...the players broke the rules....the players lied about breaking the rules...the players were outted and kicked off.


So now the program is being charged with failure to monitor (ie. not knowing enough)...basically telling OU to prove a negative.


That's fun.


IF OU receives probation because the program and administration didn't know what was going on...then OU was screwed as soon as Bomar and Quinn decided to break the rules they'd been told not to break.

heh, nice theory.

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.

[oumartin]

glad we have aggie here to keep us enlightened

[sooneron]

heh, nice theory.

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.
You're right, if a player lies to the athl dept. about not having a job, the compliance committee should tail their asses 24/7.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Why EXACTLY are you here ? Do you just enjoy ****ing everyone off ? It is so nice to some know that some dork in orange from stoolwater is here to give us guidance on how the NCAA should/does think. It is nice to know that our toothless neighbors don't have their own board to hang out on and drool all over themselves.

[soonerspudman]

Anyone besides me pick up on the softball tone of the SI article? It seems basically they're preparing a screen for the NCAA that "hey man, this is like really complicated and will take forever and golly how can the NCAA do anything when people don't cooperate with them?" I had to double check and make sure Bill Clinton wasn't the author.

In fact, the article says more about the media's collaboration with the NCAA on big-market teams by what it leaves out then by what it includes. Truth is, reams of damning evidence exist right now without even talking to anyone else but the NCAA and the media love SC and all of the So Cal market money too much to let something bad happen to them.

So sit back and watch as the hammer comes down on OU and the NCAA can wipe their hands and claim once again they've cleaned up college football while the media cleans up from the huge ratings of SC in another NC game.

[OSUAggie]

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: Why EXACTLY are you here ? Do you just enjoy ****ing everyone off ? It is so nice to some know that some dork in orange from stoolwater is here to give us guidance on how the NCAA should/does think. It is nice to know that our toothless neighbors don't have their own board to hang out on and drool all over themselves.

So do you disagree with something that I posted, or are you just ****ed that I posted it? I'm a little confused, other than understanding that you would rather I go away.

[SoonerInFla]

heh, nice theory.

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.

Wasn't it the Compliance Department that uncovered the wrongdoings? Seems to me that would fall into the category of monitoring the players and their jobs.

[goingoneight]

heh, nice theory.

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.


How much of your "theory" is wanting to see OU get hammered so your fellow aggies can say "I told you so?" It has been documented in every new report that the anonymous email said two players were milking the clock (severely). When the names surfaced, nobody knew that Bomar and Quinn were "working" there until they were interviewed. Stoops could have easily said, if they weren't ripping off the dealership... slap on the wrist 'and from now on you tell us where you're working and the details.'

It has been said time and time again that yes, the University told the players this is where a lot of student-athletes work, fill out an application. That was the whole "they basically guided me there" Bomar talked about. McRae had nothing to lose by giving under-the-table benefits. He had been employed there for a long time and knew how to cheat the system. Some of my friends at Jim Norton, who intern through OSU-Okmulgee Toyota program have done this before, too.

For a few weeks it was, "Hey, Rhett... it's 8:30, I'll clock you out at 9:00, buddy!" That spun into "Hey Boss, I have two-a-days and I'm sore as hell..."

"No problem, Rhett... just don't say anything."

Anyone who watched the ESPN special on Bomar knows this stuff. He expressed his regret and wished he could, and I quote "take the blame for everything." Why would ESPN do this when they're always looking for ways to put the BIG 12, specifically Oklahoma down?

Two main things to point out...
1. How is a compliance department supposed to know what kids are doing if they don't fill out the paperwork and go through the motions legally? How are they supposed to know what is deliberately kept secret from them unless they get that anonymous email.

2. $750,000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $18,000... no matter who you are, where you play, where you live. If someone's got a 3/4 million dollar home, you think they don't have extra "perks" to go along with that, Mr. Carroll?

And don't pull that AD Lexus crap, either... it was a ten-year-old car. If a school was handing out free rides to star players, don't you think they could be just a little more generous than that? The two events are unrelated, so that comeback is already shot.

[bri]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/513981389_2d6a9b08a7_o.jpg

[FaninAma]

uh. yeah.. that really worked out well for SMU. :rolleyes:

and, I wonder why the author didn't mention that the FBI was investigating the matter, and the Attorney General in San Diego had opened an investigation, including issuing subpoenas for various persons to testify before a grand jury.

This necessarily slowed down the process against USC since the NCAA knows not to step on the toes of the feds. If Bush, the agent and others don't want to talk, the NCAA probably has inroads with various agencies and can probably obtain the incriminating evidence they need.

There is definitely a huge amont of risk in covering up a wrong doing. Eventually a participant in the illicit activity will spill his guts or otherwise get caught......see Chris Weber and the University of Michigan.

That's why I think this tactic is so risky for USC. If the NCAA lets them off the entire college football world will know that it doesn't pass the smell test and I think independent media outlets like Yahoo.com and others will go after the story with even more energy. Then once the whole story and coverup are out in the open the NCAA will we forced to lay the hammer down on the USC program.

If Pete Carrol and USC were smart they would be encouraging Bush and his partners in crime to come clean, accept their punishment and get on with their lives. As it is playing out now this whole mess will hang over the USC program for a very long time.

I think a tell-tell sign that the stonewall may be cracking is the number of USC assistant coaches who have been leaving the program recently. Some of them have gone onto better positions but some of them seem to have taken lateral positions or even step-down positions(like one of their good recruiting coordinators.) If we see Pete Carrol jump ship before this has played out in the NCAA we'll know the results are going to be ugly for the Trojans.

[Soonerfan88]

heh, nice theory.

Unfortunately, the compliance department has to do a bit more than just inform the players of the rules. They actually have to spend time monitoring the players and their jobs.

It's inexcusable to have one of the biggest employers, an employer that your director of football operations (or whatever Merv does) recommends to the players, of your most prized program commit this sort of violation. They should have been monitored much closer, and I think that's the way the NCAA feels.

I'm not saying this is going to equate to anything more than a slap on the wrist, but to say OU did nothing wrong is a bit extreme.


The Compliance did do a bit more than that. However, both the players and the dealer were lying on the documentation. Even the police need probable cause to see personal records, so OU certainly has no rights to demand timecards or tax returns. And most of these non-worked hours happened in the fall, when Bomar & Quinn didn't even tell compliance they were "working" so no one knew to ask for documentation.

As for the job recommendation, every college athletic department does the same thing. To be on the list, the businesses usually have to sign paperwork stating they agree to comply with NCAA rules and regulations. It's better for the schools to know exactly who the athletes are working for than to have some rogue booster running around out of control.

Unfortunately, in this case the rogue booster out of control also had legitimate jobs and worked within the system. Do I think every athlete who worked there was paid too much? Absolutely not. As has been seen in this case, it's too hard to keep quiet. But I do believe Bad Brad has probably offered before and the others (hopefully) understood the ramifications and didn't take advantage of it.

IMO, the NCAA only threw in the "failure to monitor" because they don't really have much of a case and needed something to argue about in April.

[Blue]

Jason from Daphne,Al? My brother is Jason and we're from Daphne. He lives in B-ham, though. Weird.

[stoopified]

Nope. OU will be punished because we're OU. USC, Tejas and ND get free passes.
UT did get busted 2 or 3 times under Royal,don't let them snow you with stories of Orange Purity.

[MiccoMacey]

To OSU Aggie: Ahem...Joe Seay...Ahem.

I honestly do not know enough to say one way or another about the case to say we are 100% innocent or 100% guilty.

So much of what I read on these internet message boards are usually biased, and a lot of it is someone's opinion that has been posted for so long that it becomes internet "fact".

But I'd like to believe that the NCAA is waiting in the wings for the USC-Bush fiasco, like our resident Longhorn lawyer asserts, and has some things in line to get to the truth.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

The article struck me a bit as saying, "just don't cooperate with the NCAA, or at least make sure all the various parties involved don't cooperate while the school does, and you'll get off the hook". And not that Mandel is supporting that position, but rather decrying it....

Oh, and Aggie, how about a nice cup of STFU: You can't say they should have discovered the cheating earlier and on their own without qualifying it with a "maybe". And you cannot assert in any way that any other compliance department in the country would have or could have done a better job. Who would you hold up as an example? What other major D1-A program have you heard of that has run into a case of players hiding the fact that they were employed and hiding the fact that they were taking money that they didn't earn, and were subsequently caught and punished by the school, and the information turned over in full cooperation with the NCAA?

And, btw, that always seems to get lost on you sheep-tapping morons... that the players and one greasy used car dealer GM were HIDING THE EFFING EVIDENCE!

So again I pose the question: How could any compliance department monitor that, or react any more swiftly and emphatically to said whistle-blowing?

Please enlighten us with your all-knowing wisdom....

Or rather don't. Anything you come up with will come off as more hallucinatory pesticide-huffing-induced pen** envy from you and the rest of the idiot orange.