Alabama Legislature apologizes...

[Okla-homey]

for slavery. On Friday in a joint resolution.

I love it when people who had nothing to do with particular historic events apologize for things that happened a hundred years before they were born. I think if I were tapped to draft such a document, it would look like this...


Dear Descendents of Enslaved Persons,

Slavery happened. It was lamentable. Though none of us alive today had anything to do with it, we are unanimous in our view that human beings should not own other human beings (except in the context of professional sports of course.)

We now have laws that make ownership of humans illegal*. We got it. We even had a big destructive war in which over 600,000 people were killed over the matter. We'll never do it again. We promise. It's in our federal constitution. You can look it up.**

Now, please, let's move on.

*Major League Baseball excepted
** XIII Amendment (1866)

[usmc-sooner]

every race has been a slave at one time in their history. I never owned a slave nor have I been one so it's a non issue to me, as it should be for anyone alive today.

[ric311]

for a politician, this is a ridiculous choice. Either A) vote for the measure and show yourself as a spineless idiot apologizing for something he had nothing to do with or B) vote against the measure and be shown as a bigotted redneck.

[slickdawg]

word homey!

[jk the sooner fan]

down with whitey!!!!!!!!

[Frozen Sooner]

for slavery. On Friday in a joint resolution.

I love it when people who had nothing to do with particular historic events apologize for things that happened a hundred years before they were born. I think if I were tapped to draft such a document, it would look like this...

Is this an apology by the individuals voting for the apology or is the representatives of the people of the state apologizing for something that the state as a corporate entity (which still exists) did in its past?

'Cause that's a pretty big difference.

Do you think that if Germany had not apologized already for its actions in WWII that such an apology would be meaningless in 2050?

[jk the sooner fan]

it may be a big difference but after 100 years you have to move on......im pretty sure there have been all sorts of apologies for slavery since that time

seems like pandering to me, pointless.......

[King Crimson]

I think Mike makes a good point since Constitutional governments are based in the persistence of institutions. and since we have representatives that serve those institutions....some culpability is not so far out.

the life chances of people and their progeny who start out in this country as slaves is lessened than those who begin as freemen.

now, apologies mean very little if racism persists in society (as it does).

to consider the actions of the US federal government as benign or neutral also ignores the near systematic genocide of native Americans.

people can bitch and moan about PC all they want....but that happened. it was an active policy. the hero story of western expansion is not unproblematic. as Oklahomans and many of us with Native American blood (myself included)....nobody is saying you as an individual are responsible. but, it happened. if people want to partake in the glory of national identification when it comes to WW II or the NFL or whatever, very few of you were responsible for that, either.

and, the southern US was one of the last slave-holding societies in "modern" human history.

devil's advocate.

[Frozen Sooner]

it may be a big difference but after 100 years you have to move on......im pretty sure there have been all sorts of apologies for slavery since that time

seems like pandering to me, pointless.......

There may have been apologies for slavery, but none from the State of Alabama to my knowledge.

Who are you to tell another man that they should move on for something that happened to them or their ancestors? That's completely against recorded human history.

[jk the sooner fan]

oh i'm not telling them they HAVE to move on

but i'm telling them they should........you know the old saying about those that live in the past......and i'm not talking about the past just a few years or even a couple of decades ago

if, as a people, you collectively continue to play the victim, thats what you'll always be

just my opinion, feel free to disagree

[Frozen Sooner]

Well, fair enough. It would be nice if people could forget the wrongs done to them or those they identify with in the past. It'd solve a heck of a lot of problems. Probably not a realistic goal.

I don't see any harm in the actions of the Alabama legislature here and some potential for good-maybe it helps some people move on, you know?

[Tailwind]

Doubtful.

[jk the sooner fan]

i just think its a hollow apology......its like proclaiming it to be "jk day"....its meaningless

[Widescreen]

My Irish ancestors were heavily discriminated against when they came to the US. You wouldn't believe some of the horrific things they had to do to get even the tiniest bit of food. I wonder when somebody's going to apologize to me. The people of the south oval can start.


Go!

[OCUDad]

Sorry, Widescreen.

[Frozen Sooner]

My Irish ancestors were heavily discriminated against when they came to the US. You wouldn't believe some of the horrific things they had to do to get even the tiniest bit of food. I wonder when somebody's going to apologize to me. The people of the south oval can start.


Go!

I apologize for you being Irish.

And there is a bit of a difference between even the worst that the Irish went through (yes, even indentured servitude) and slavery.

[Widescreen]

And I could argue that I'm impacted by what my ancestors went through about as much as the typical modern slave descendant.

[Widescreen]

Sorry, Widescreen.
OK, I'm ready to move on. It's been a rough 120 years.

[StoopTroup]

I apologize for you being Irish.

And there is a bit of a difference between even the worst that the Irish went through (yes, even indentured servitude) and slavery.

Really?

"Welcome to America - You have two choices - Starve or fight in the Civil War to keep your Wife from having to be a prostitute. The English and the folks running the U.S. really treated the Irish immigrant well....lol

I think not only an apology might be in order, but a "Thank You...you guys really can kill well" could also be given....

Sure we can plant a few potatos...but we are excellent hunters...:D

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There may have been apologies for slavery, but none from the State of Alabama to my knowledge.

Who are you to tell another man that they should move on for something that happened to them or their ancestors? That's completely against recorded human history.It's silly-as*ed PC pandering, Mike, and you know it. I just hope their legislature is controlled by the party of the left, so the other party doesn't further embarrass themselves, and continue to lose the support of their base.

[OCUDad]

And I could argue that I'm impacted ... http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6291/imagesfq0.jpg

[usmc-sooner]

has the black community said they're sorry for ruining the lives of the Duke LaCrosse players?

has the black community ever blamed their own race for the slave trade?

[Frozen Sooner]

It's silly-as*ed PC pandering, Mike, and you know it. I just hope their legislature is controlled by the party of the left, so the other party doesn't further embarrass themselves, and continue to lose the support of their base.

Rather rich from a guy who regurgitates whatever bull**** pandering gets thrown out on the airwaves.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Rather rich from a guy who regurgitates whatever bull**** pandering gets thrown out on the airwaves.How the heck would you honestly be able to say something llike that? You don't listen to talk radio. Taking the word of leftist pundits who also don't listen to talk radio does not qualify as listening to talk radio.

[King Crimson]

i listen to talk radio. a lot of it. Mike has never self-identified as being left in any way, to my knowledge.

calling something "PC" or "libz" or dims" is hardly an argument, it's the weakest form of assertion that merely panders to those who have internalized a similar set of "code words" and scapegoat logic that they reproduce like dutiful, brainless robots.

in other words, it makes a complicated world simple enough for a hamsteak to understand.

[jk the sooner fan]

:rolleyes:

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

i listen to talk radio. a lot of it. Mike has never self-identified as being left in any way, to my knowledge.

calling something "PC" or "libz" or dims" is hardly an argument, it's the weakest form of assertion that merely panders to those who have internalized a similar set of "code words" and scapegoat logic that they reproduce like dutiful, brainless robots.

in other words, it makes a complicated world simple enough for a hamsteak to understand.Mike offers his opinions on this board, as we all do. They are there for the reading, and analysis.

[King Crimson]

:rolleyes:

dismissive sarcasm also qualifies for hamsteak status. ":rolleyes: "

please note in my original post that the gesture is largely empty, but it's much easy to project what *you want to believe* by means of assertion.

adios.

[jk the sooner fan]

let us know if you need help getting down off that horse...

[King Crimson]

that's pretty ironic coming from you.

[StoopTroup]

I'd like to start my own Irish Casino.

[1stTimeCaller]

the PotatoStar?

;)

[jk the sooner fan]

the PotatoStar?

;)

heh, spek for that laugh!

[StoopTroup]

The DonnyBrooke Casino.

Heh...PotatoStar

Spuds McKensie - Manager

[Widescreen]

the PotatoStar?

;)
You've just offended me. I demand that you be fired. And I'm claiming this on the grounds that we have the constitutional right not to be offended and stuff.

[1stTimeCaller]

When is your press conference?

;)

[Okla-homey]

1TC, do not fear. Nowadays, all you have to do is claim you were drunk when you offended Widescreen, it was the alcohol talking, and you plan to enter rehab. ;)

[Mjcpr]

Is that the sound of the reparations door being opened?

[Okla-homey]

Is that the sound of the reparations door being opened?

Please don't get me started on that. IMHO, the combined effect of the aforementioned war, free public education, and federal and state entitlements pretty much filled the old reparation bucket to the brim.

I see no rational basis for any cash payments to anyone alive today for the harm done to enslaved persons in the US -- last perpetrated in 1865.

I have a colleague who is pretty actively involved in pursuing reparations for his people. I asked him, given the above, why he felt they were due. His response was that reperations were needed to atone for the sins of my ancestors who were all implicated in the crime by either active involvement or acquiesence. Only by making awards to all black folks in the US could the stain be washed out. A fine if you will. He stated as far as he's concerned, the payments could be "in kind" services, such as free college or job training, or even tax forgiveness.

I don't buy it and I told him so. I also shared that while slavery was horrible and lamentable, notwithstanding this fact, I honestly believe US blacks are far better off than the overwhelming majority of blacks who remain in Africa.

He doesn't talk to me much anymore.

I also raised the issue of how it could be practically administered. Would it be based on Negro blood quantum? Would someone who is less than full-blood get less? Would an applicant have to prove he or she was descended from an enslaved person? What about people whose ancestors were free blacks? Do they get less? See what I mean?

[Scott D]

If ever I could give a thread negative 10 stars for predictable suckability, it would be this one.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

If ever I could give a thread negative 10 stars for predictable suckability, it would be this one.You're gonna be in trouble, fella. We are agreeing FAR too much lately for you to maintain whatever esteem you may have had.

[Scott D]

You're gonna be in trouble, fella. We are agreeing FAR too much lately for you to maintain whatever esteem you may have had.

good thing that my self esteem isn't tied into whether or not I agree with you or anyone else on this forum then.

This is nothing more than a 'nice' gesture. I didn't see this vitriol when months ago Virginia made a resolution to do much the same as Alabama did. To politicize every little gesture as much as is done on here is laughable at best.

The reparations discussion, is just as silly.

[Okla-homey]

The reparations discussion, is just as silly.

If you are saying you believe the notion of reparations is silly, I quite agree.

If you believe discussing reparations is silly, why?

[Scott D]

The notion is silly due to the numbers..not to mention that I think the government would be as likely to come through in that regard as they were when they attempted realtime reparations post civil war with the "40 Acres & a Mule" promise.

Discussing it is even more useless because of preconceived notions. Any attempted discussion would drag itself down into stereotypes and biases on a par with any partisan based political discussion.

[1stTimeCaller]

did our Government officially promise "40 acres and a mule"?

I'm honestly asking because I've heard both and have never checked into it myself.

[Scott D]

It promised at minimum the 40 acres via a special order by Gen. Sherman, and may have actually been attempted to be fulfilled except for Lincoln's assassination. The following administrations moved quickly to nip the field orders in the bud.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

This is nothing more than a 'nice' gesture. I didn't see this vitriol when months ago Virginia made a resolution to do much the same as Alabama did. To politicize every little gesture as much as is done on here is laughable at best.

The reparations discussion, is just as silly.It's a "nice" AND political act by the legislatures. For the SO to politicize it is appropriate, although the discussion is predictable, as you say. Hey, most of them on here are predictable.(BFMFD, eh?)

[Scott D]

It's a "nice" AND political act by the legislatures. For the SO to politicize it is appropriate, although the discussion is predictable, as you say. Hey, most of them on here are predictable.(BFMFD, eh?)

Pretty much anything any legislature does is politicizing every issue. That's why Government at every level has already become invasive. The worst part is still that everyone believes the letter in the parenthesis by someone's name means they are more or less invasive in their views.

[Frozen Sooner]

How the heck would you honestly be able to say something llike that? You don't listen to talk radio. Taking the word of leftist pundits who also don't listen to talk radio does not qualify as listening to talk radio.

How do you know what I have or haven't listened to?

[1stTimeCaller]

How do you know what I have or haven't listened to?
FrozenSooner is his cousin. They talk about you.

[Okla-homey]

I gonna try to say this very carefully and don't mean to insult anyone. Having carefully considered the emancipation of enslaved persons and studied the post-Civil War political and social landscape in this country, I've concluded that the matter probably couldn't have been handled any less deftly had the federal government intended to deliberately muck it up.

To wit, simply telling people, "You're free! Now, hit the road" was a recipe for disaster. It was the height of niavete, or maybe something more sinister, to expect people who by law, had been kept illiterate and ignorant, to be able to make their way in a region that was already economically devastated. The fact they were expected to somehow do that amid a bitter majority population who now held them in lower regard than they had when they were enslaved, was the height of foolishness.

The responsibility for that clearly rests at the feet of the victorious post-bellum US government.

That said, I really don't think anything can be done today to rectify the situation that hasn't already been done.

[Frozen Sooner]

FrozenSooner is his cousin. They talk about you.

I'm gonna get that bastard.

[Frozen Sooner]

I gonna try to say this very carefully and don't mean to insult anyone. Having carefully considered the emancipation of enslaved persons and studied the post-Civil War political and social landscape in this country, I've concluded that the matter probably couldn't have been handled any less deftly had the federal government intended to deliberately muck it up.

To wit, simply telling people, "You're free! Now, hit the road" was a recipe for disaster. It was the height of niavete, or maybe something more sinister, to expect people who by law, had been kept illiterate and ignorant, to be able to make their way in a region that was already economically devastated. The fact they were expected to somehow do that amid a bitter majority population who now held them in lower regard than they had when they were enslaved, was the height of foolishness.

That said, I really don't think anything can be done today to rectify the situation that hasn't already been done.

Echoing the words of Lyndon Baines Johnson:

You don't chain a man up his entire life, remove his chains, then suddenly put him at the starting line of a 100-yard dash and claim that he's got an equal chance of winning.

And yeah, there's a hell of a lot that could have been done better. I think had Lincoln lived, some of that may have come to pass. Probably not, though.

In particular, the appointment of blacks as senators and representatives of former slave states was possibly the worst move that could have been made. Nothing could have fostered resentment any easier than that.

[Scott D]

Homey that's what made every "Back to Africa" movement somewhat silly (both by blacks and by whites). It was only a logical solution for first generationers, and even then they were likely to be shunned by their own tribes upon returning to Africa. Anyone who could be suspected of having some slave owner blood in them (which wasn't too hard to pick out in most cases due to pigmentation) wasn't necessarily made welcome if they tried to go, hence a big reason for the formation of Liberia.

The vacuum has been discussed ad nauseam on here, and it didn't change the fact that there was no infrastructure to support the new situation in the South, and the Northerners were only willing to go so far with freeing the slaves as long as it remained the South's population problem. Especially with the continued influx of immigrants into the North from Europe.

[Scott D]

In particular, the appointment of blacks as senators and representatives of former slave states was possibly the worst move that could have been made. Nothing could have fostered resentment any easier than that.

Dad gum it, it was imperative that those states received their just punishment! ;)

[Okla-homey]

Dad gum it, it was imperative that those states received their just punishment! ;)

That, and they were the only available Republicans in those states.

[Scott D]

Black Republicans? surely you jest ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

i listen to talk radio. a lot of it. Mike has never self-identified as being left in any way, to my knowledge.

calling something "PC" or "libz" or dims" is hardly an argument, it's the weakest form of assertion that merely panders to those who have internalized a similar set of "code words" and scapegoat logic that they reproduce like dutiful, brainless robots.

in other words, it makes a complicated world simple enough for a hamsteak to understand.

Pretty much.

Over the past several years, my views have moved more leftward than they were. I was much more conservative than most of the people I interacted with in high school and college, but I'm more liberal than most of the people I interact with now. Based on the current political landscape of the US, It's probably fair to characterize me as a liberal.

[1stTimeCaller]

I'm a SouthPark Conservative

[Okla-homey]

FWIW, and for the record, I do support meaningful and substantial reparations, indexed to the value of modern money and based on losses sustained in the blood and fire orgy that was the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot, for survivors.

Why? The photograph owners hand scribbled caption says it all.

http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/18334/2002007336594799079_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002007336594799079)

[Scott D]

FWIW, and for the record, I do support meaningful and substantial reparations, indexed to the value of modern money and based on losses sustained in the blood and fire orgy that was the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot, for survivors.

Why? The photograph owners hand scribbled caption says it all.

http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/18334/2002007336594799079_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002007336594799079)

That goes back to setting a solid criteria for what constitutes a satisfactory standard for reparations.

[Okla-homey]

That goes back to setting a solid criteria for what constitutes a satisfactory standard for reparations.

I agree, but one thing's certain; The $20K many of them got a while back didn't cover it.

[SleestakSooner]

How about some apologies to the aboriginal inhabitants who were victims of genocide and herded around like cattle?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How about some apologies to the aboriginal inhabitants who were victims of genocide and herded around like cattle?Sounds like the makings of a new thread.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

How do you know what I have or haven't listened to?your original criticism gave the impression you don't. Besides, my monitors have reported in on the issue.

[Jerk]

This whole thread reminded me of a High School discussion on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington) guy. I can't believe I remembered his name.

The answer for todays problems within the black community are education, capitalism, and family. There ain't no white man like me who can preach it. There will have to be a black man come along and do it.

And yes, I know, many of us rednecks are suffering from the same illness of lack of fathers, lack of education, etc.

[Scott D]

This whole thread reminded me of a High School discussion on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington) guy. I can't believe I remembered his name.

The answer for todays problems within the black community are education, capitalism, and family. There ain't no white man like me who can preach it. There will have to be a black man come along and do it.

And yes, I know, many of us rednecks are suffering from the same illness of lack of fathers, lack of education, etc.

That's a discussion for another time and place.

However Jerk, suffice to say that so far at least socio-politically, anyone so far whom has come along and suggested the methods of which you are championing has two things working against them. Some folk who take exception to the methods, or suggestions of that person..proclaiming them to be racist against whites in suggesting and promoting self-sufficiency in the black community. Secondly, it wouldn't be good business for "welfare kings, slumlords, external living business owners" for the black community to be more self sufficient. Mainly because it would lead to a breakdown of a system that has been in place since the late 1800s.

[Widescreen]

That's a discussion for another time and place.

However Jerk, suffice to say that so far at least socio-politically, anyone so far whom has come along and suggested the methods of which you are championing has two things working against them. Some folk who take exception to the methods, or suggestions of that person..proclaiming them to be racist against whites in suggesting and promoting self-sufficiency in the black community. Secondly, it wouldn't be good business for "welfare kings, slumlords, external living business owners" for the black community to be more self sufficient. Mainly because it would lead to a breakdown of a system that has been in place since the late 1800s.
Bill Cosby has been trying to break down some of the barriers. I don't know how much success he's had. I think he's saying the right things but it's stuff that J. Jackson, et al don't want to get out.

[Okla-homey]

When the federal gubmint decided waaay back in the 1960's that a mother wasn't eligible for the same level of public assistance if there was a man in the house, that pretty much ripped the social fabric right there. I believe the illegitimacy figures among black folks are hovering around 70% nowadays and the white community is racing to catch up.

I hate it for those children. Children deserve a mom and dad who live under the same roof who contribute to their raising. That's not to say single moms are incapable of doing a good job, but it is indisputable that a responsible male and female role model are pretty close to essential for the development of a well-adjusted kid who will someday be able to have healthy relationships him or herself.

[Jerk]

That's a discussion for another time and place.

However Jerk, suffice to say that so far at least socio-politically, anyone so far whom has come along and suggested the methods of which you are championing has two things working against them. Some folk who take exception to the methods, or suggestions of that person..proclaiming them to be racist against whites in suggesting and promoting self-sufficiency in the black community. Secondly, it wouldn't be good business for "welfare kings, slumlords, external living business owners" for the black community to be more self sufficient. Mainly because it would lead to a breakdown of a system that has been in place since the late 1800s.
I didn't mean to be picking on black people specifically, by trying to say that they have problems that the rest of us do not. I'm glad you didn't take it that way, because anyone could have. I'm just trying to say that the answer for improvement within black communities isn't going to be from gov't or white people. Like WS says, I think Cosby is on the right track. Strong families, self sufficiency, economic freedom, etc, are things that benefit us all.

[Widescreen]

Like WS says, I think Cosby is on the right track. Strong families, self sufficiency, economic freedom, etc, are things that benefit us all.
And literacy. He's been very adamant about speaking correct American English which I think is wise. Nothing gives people a 1st impression like the way you talk.

[usmc-sooner]

And literacy. He's been very adamant about speaking correct American English which I think is wise. Nothing gives people a 1st impression like the way you talk.

word

[1stTimeCaller]

That's not to say single moms are incapable of doing a good job, but it is indisputable that a responsible male and female role model are pretty close to essential for the development of a well-adjusted kid who will someday be able to have healthy relationships him or herself.

No doubt. My mom became a single mom on April 9th, 1992 at 4:21pm. She busted her hump but having my dad at home sure would have prevented a lot of the problems she and I had for the 5 1/2 years until I graduated HS. And probably a few of the problems I have today.

[olevetonahill]

#1 Why didnt they apologise for Wallace
#2 I raised My 2 sons thru the mid 80s to the 90 s Thy are both Solid
#3 I have never been prejudiced in my life , But Get a Job , Keep said Job , Raise your Kids to do the same .

[jk the sooner fan]

word

i think you meant "word to your mother" ;)

[Okla-homey]

#2 I raised My 2 sons thru the mid 80s to the 90 s Thy are both Solid


You are a man baby. Men can usally do a pretty good job with boys even if there ain't no mama around. Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, its a single mama trying to raise a boy and when he hits his teens, it's on like Donkey-Kong and most just don't have the strength, will or savvy to break them.

[usmc-sooner]

When I was young me and my mama had beef
Seventeen years old kicked out on the streets
Though back at the time, I never thought I'd see her face
Ain't a woman alive that could take my mama's place
Suspended from school; and scared to go home, I was a fool
with the big boys, breakin all the rules
I shed tears with my baby sister
Over the years we was poorer than the other little kids
And even though we had different daddy's, the same drama
When things went wrong we'd blame mama
I reminice on the stress I caused, it was hell
Huggin on my mama from a jail cell
And who'd think in elementary?
Heeey! I see the penitentiary, one day
And runnin from the police, that's right
Mama catch me, put a whoopin to my backside
And even as a crack fiend, mama
You always was a black queen, mama
I finally understand
for a woman it ain't easy tryin to raise a man
You always was committed
A poor single mother on welfare, tell me how ya did it
There's no way I can pay you back
But the plan is to show you that I understand
You are appreciated