Shake hands with your Muslim friend today....

[KABOOKIE]

....But have your other hand ready to knock their teeth out.


Poll: One in Four U.S. Muslims OK With Homicide Bombings Against Innocent Civilians


WASHINGTON — One out of four young U.S. Muslims believe suicide bombings against innocent civilians are OK to defend Islam, according to a new poll.

The nationwide survey — one of the most exhaustive ever conducted of American Muslim attitudes — also found that only 40 percent of U.S. Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks, reports The New York Post. Another 28 percent said they don't believe it.

More than 60 percent are "very concerned" Islamic extremism will grow in America, while 26 percent believe the U.S.-led War on Terror is a sincere effort to root out international terrorism.

The survey included more than 1,000 of the nation's estimated 2.35 million Muslims and was conducted in English and several foreign languages.

Thirteen percent said suicide bombings and other violence against civilians can be justified "in order to defend Islam from its enemies" at least on rare occasions. Among those under age 30, that 13 percent doubled to 26 percent, the paper reported.

Three out of four people surveyed said the decision to go to war in Iraq was wrong, and 48 percent said using force in Afghanistan was wrong. Five percent of those surveyed had a "very favorable" or "somewhat favorable" view of Al Qaeda, while 58 percent had a "very unfavorable" opinion of the terror group.

[BigRedJed]

Make sure to only shake the right hand.

[SicEmBaylor]

PG is going to neg your ***.

[Petro-Sooner]

PG is going to neg your ***.

Why, is she muslim?

[Scott D]

in other news, White Supremacy groups report a decrease in new membership as their potential angry white disenfranchised male members have been turning in droves to Islam.

[GrapevineSooner]

So does this mean I have to start distrusting my Muslim friend with an Italian restaurant in the area that bears his name?

Damn. Because he makes such good aurora sauce.

[Condescending Sooner]

in other news, White Supremacy groups report a decrease in new membership as their potential angry white disenfranchised male members have been turning in droves to Islam.


Are you a muslim?

[TUSooner]

in other news, White Supremacy groups report a decrease in new membership as their potential angry white disenfranchised male members have been turning in droves to Islam.

I thought that's what happened to all the angry disenfranchised black male militants of the 60s & 70s. :confused: ;)

[Fugue]

:pop:

[TUSooner]

Lemme just say that any religion that needs to blow up babies to "protect" itself is pathetic, useless, and evil. :mad: :rolleyes: :hot:

[SoonerBorn68]

Lemme just say that any religion that needs to blow up babies to "protect" itself is pathetic, useless, and evil. :mad: :rolleyes: :hot:

HATE MONGER!

[Petro-Sooner]

You also forgot the part about stoneing their women.

[Dio]

Are there any women here?

[MamaMia]

Lets just say that I'm glad I'm not a Muslim.

I went to college with a friend who married a Muslim from Saudi Arabia. He hit her. She left. He got visitation and took the kids to Saudi in 1988. She hasn't seen her son and daughter since they were 5 and 7 years old.

[Petro-Sooner]

But, but our court system can force him to come back and........:rolleyes:

sad deal

[imjebus]

You also forgot the part about stoneing their women.


Hey whats wrong with stoned women?

Thats how I like em....:D

[MamaMia]

But, but our court system can force him to come back and........:rolleyes:

sad dealShe tried to get the United States to help, we all did, but they couldn't do anything. Its really sad. She has never been the same since.

[Mjcpr]

What attracted her to him in the first place.....that great Middle Eastern odor? That hawt accent?

:confused:

[Petro-Sooner]

There really is an odor to them. I've had classes with them.

[TopDaugIn2000]

Can't tell you how glad I am to be rid of Achmed. Really.

[Harry Beanbag]

There really is an odor to them. I've had classes with them.


You should smell their taxis over there. In Bahrain the cabbies drove BMWs and Mercedes, none of which were over two years old, and they all smelled like hot, sweaty, sandy, dank, BO-ridden ***.

[Boarder]

They surveyed one thousand out of 2.5 million? That doesn't seem super duper accurate to me.

[Harry Beanbag]

They surveyed one thousand out of 2.5 million? That doesn't seem super duper accurate to me.


It's got to be more accurate than all these political polls, that everybody takes as gospel, where they survey 1000 out of like 100 million or so registered voters.

[MamaMia]

What attracted her to him in the first place.....that great Middle Eastern odor? That hawt accent?

:confused:He was rather handsome and seemed like an okay fellow at first. I don't think he stinked, but then that was way before my sinus surgery, so I really couldn't smell too well back then. :P

[BU BEAR]

"To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Muhammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing"

--General George S. Patton in "War as I Knew It"

[Mjcpr]

I don't think he stinked, but then that was way before my sinus surgery, so I really couldn't smell too well back then. :P

I'm sure you smelled fine, Mama.

[MamaMia]

I'm sure you smelled fine, Mama. Why thank you dear. I do smell quite lovely, if I do say so myself. :)

[BU BEAR]

Why thank you dear. I do smell quite lovely, if I do say so myself. :)


Huh Huh Huh!...

Hey, baby!

[mdklatt]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/22/AR2007052201463_2.html


Unlike Muslim minorities in many European countries, U.S. Muslims are highly assimilated, close to parity with other Americans in income and overwhelmingly opposed to Islamic extremism, according to the first major, nationwide random survey of Muslims.

The survey by the Pew Research Center found that 78 percent of U.S. Muslims said the use of suicide bombings against civilian targets to defend Islam is never justified. But 5 percent said it is justified "rarely," 7 percent said "sometimes," and 1 percent said "often"; the remaining 9 percent said they did not know or declined to answer.

...

Titled "Muslim Americans: Middle Class and Mostly Mainstream," the Pew report draws a picture of a diverse population of about 2.35 million U.S. Muslims, of which two-thirds of the adults were born abroad, and which has a generally positive view of the larger society.

Most call their communities good or excellent places to live, and most report that a large portion of their closest friends are non-Muslims. They are slightly more satisfied than the general public is with the state of the nation.

On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the United States should adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct. And they are even more inclined than other Americans to say that people who want to get ahead can make it if they work hard; 71 percent of U.S. Muslims agreed with that statement, compared with 64 percent of the general public.



Bastages. BURN 'EM ALL!!!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

They surveyed one thousand out of 2.5 million? That doesn't seem super duper accurate to me.And don't you believe it either. Pay no attention to the small percentage of Muslims that want to kill all Americans. They won't do too much damage.

[Vaevictis]

They surveyed one thousand out of 2.5 million? That doesn't seem super duper accurate to me.

1000 is, I think, sufficient for reasonable statistical estimation.

It is always, however, possible that they got a bunch of outliers and/or their methodology is bad.

[Scott D]

I thought that's what happened to all the angry disenfranchised black male militants of the 60s & 70s. :confused: ;)

no, they all got government jobs ;)

[BigRedJed]

I wonder how many non-Muslims in America might say that it would be OK to turn an entire country such as Iran into "a sheet of glass." Seems like one people painting an entire other people with the same brush is what gets mankind into trouble every time.

[Scott D]

Are you a muslim?

what's it like being consistently wrong in attempting to form your opinion of me?

[Scott D]

And don't you believe it either. Pay no attention to the small percentage of Muslims that want to kill all Americans. They won't do too much damage.

oh as in comparison to the small percentage of non-Muslims in the United States who don't have a "Hey, let's just turn the entire region into a sheet of glass" mentality?

[BigRedJed]

Copycat.

[BU BEAR]

I would like to see the questions from both surveys.

[Scott D]

Copycat.

Indeed, I have been shamed into admitting it. However, at least I'm parroting the cause of good, not the cause of 'right now!' :)

[jk the sooner fan]

the problem with your comparison, is that while many of us may sit around in a bar and joke about turning iran into a sheet of glass........very few, if any, of us will strap on a bomb belt and walk on to a crowded bus...

there's a difference between venting frustrations and carrying out acts of homicide

[Scott D]

the problem with your comparison, is that while many of us may sit around in a bar and joke about turning iran into a sheet of glass........very few, if any, of us will strap on a bomb belt and walk on to a crowded bus...

there's a difference between venting frustrations and carrying out acts of homicide

Well let's be fair, that's mostly because Americans are fanatic about only one thing...being consistently flighty and having the attention spans of gnats.

[yermom]

i don't think that is what the survey asked...

[BigRedJed]

Let me be on record as saying I am not against the current action in Iraq. I am not a liberal, nor am I a Muslim apologist. Their house is obviously not in order. That said, there apparently are very few, if any, American Muslims who will strap on a bomb belt and walk on to a crowded bus. Do I believe there are some here who are capable of it? Absolutely. Do I think the number of Muslims who believe those types of actions is OK is disproportionate to the entire Muslim population? Likely.

But to say that non-Muslims won't ever, for instance, load giant bombs into Ryder trucks and kill innocents in support of their own beliefs is, well, silly.

Fundamentalism and radical beliefs are not exclusive to one religion, and my only point is that hatred directed towards an entire group of people based on the actions of a small minority of them only creates more hatred.

[Scott D]

So Jed, what do you think the result of the Cold War had been if Reagan had resorted to these tactics with the Soviet Union instead of *gasp* talking to them.

[BigRedJed]

Do you mean turning them into a sheet of glass? Or are you referring to the current war? Because that vs. the Cold War are apples and oranges.

[BigRedJed]

Or more like apples and bicycles, actually.

[Widescreen]

So Jed, what do you think the result of the Cold War had been if Reagan had resorted to these tactics with the Soviet Union instead of *gasp* talking to them.
The Soviets weren't insane. They wanted to conquer us of course, but for the most part, they weren't OK with dying in the attempt. I don't think that's a good comparison at all.

[Condescending Sooner]

what's it like being consistently wrong in attempting to form your opinion of me?

Does that mean you're not? I was just curious, because on every post that concerns Muslims, you stumble all over yourself defending them. If you are then fine, just admit it.

[TUSooner]

Well let's be fair, that's mostly because Americans are fanatic about only one thing...being consistently flighty and having the attention spans of gnats.
Speaking of gnats, did you know that time flies like and arrow but fruit flies like a banana?

Thw worst thing I could say about any of the muslims I have met or know persoanlly, is that some of the men have a rather low opinion of the capabilities and sensibilities of women. But the same could be said of a few baptists, too.
I got inot a conversation with a muslim man whose brother had been shot dead in the convenience store they owned near where my daughter takes guitar lessons. He really thought our society was too open and that people could travel too freely between states. He also thought the disintegration of the family was disgraceful. I could tell he probably thought women should all stay home and take care of the kids. I suspect he thought I was terribly decadent for letting my daughter play the guitar. But again, I have heard the "mom should stay home and tend the kiddies in order to save the family" spiel from Christians, too.

The Lesson: Gnats are like fruit flies, only smaller.

[jk the sooner fan]

what about the countless muslims here in the states that certainly wont strap on a belt bomb, but gladly funnel money back to the homeland to support those that do?

i think if you had any inkling as to the numbers that engage in that, you'd be shocked

[Dio]

Well let's be fair, that's mostly because Americans are fanatic about only one thing...being consistently flighty and having the attention spans of gnats.

I'm sorry- what were we talking about again? :confused:

[soonerscuba]

Maybe we should lock them up until we crush their false religion.

[sooneron]

Maybe we should lock them up until we crush their false religion.
Good idea! Let's also lock up the gays and change them to normal too!
Most muslims I know have the same general opinion of the US that many outsiders do. They think we're good people and that democracy is good, but we're too arrogant about our "Our way or the highway" ideology. A Christian would never strap a bomb to themselves for their cause- they'd turn off the ignition and run away. Pre-school be damned.

[MamaMia]

sooneron, your baby is so cute. :D
Do you have any recent photos?

[Jerk]

It looks like people aren't going to wake up until they nuke us.

How many times do they have to tell us point blank: "We want to kill you!" and yet look at all of the attempts here to equate what's really going on in the world with those 'fundy Christians.' Yeah, the real threat! :rolleyes:

Some of you need to pull your head out of your arse and take a look at all the multitudes of wars going across the globe today. Guess what you'll find? The muslims are conducting Jihad across the planet, as their religion teaches them to do, and are involved in almost every single armed conflict on Earth now. And it didn't start when George Bush became president. It's far easier to name all of the wars going on that don't have anything to do with muslims because there are very few of them.

I'm sure there are plenty of good muslims, but I don't hear very many of them speak out against the fundemental fringe of their society. They have a large population hell-bent on destroying us and yet the libs here can't help themselves from taking shots at something they fear more: those d*mned Bible thumpers!! Yeah, they might not vote the way you want them to, but until I see them flying airplanes into buildings and crashing fuel tankers into crowded markets, I'm not going to fall for your b.s. script that the Baptists 'are just as bad!'

[picasso]

So Jed, what do you think the result of the Cold War had been if Reagan had resorted to these tactics with the Soviet Union instead of *gasp* talking to them.
is that really a good comparison? I mean we kind of outspent them and stockpiled in the name of hoping not to ever use said weapons.

not sure our current enemy is so conventional. who the hell do we talk to anyway?

[KABOOKIE]

Knock! Knock! Hello sir, have you heard about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Gaaaaawd Damn Christians are attacking us!!!!


or,

Booooooooom! I just killed your family. Praise Allah for his good deeds.

[jk the sooner fan]

there was a time in our history when Americans didnt feel ashamed about thinking our way of life was the "right way"....thats gone, now its the "let everybody do as they wish"........

[usmc-sooner]

there was a time in our history when Americans didnt feel ashamed about thinking our way of life was the "right way"....thats gone, now its the "let everybody do as they wish"........

why accept some personal responsibility or a moral code, let's just say anything goes. Most of the people who talk like this have never made any sacrifice or fought for anything, yet they feel they worked so hard and feel so entitled because by Gawd it was really hard while mommy and daddy funded them through school, and it really wasn't fair cause they can't smoke pot all day, or it really sucks that society won't change right now cause they feel like gay sex is cool, and how harsh and unfair life is while they bitch about the President of their country on their text message cell phones and the internet, man Bush really screwed things up, I mean were all standing a post instead of posting on some nerdy internet board. I also think it's really uncool and a hardship of life that we have to wait so long in the self check out line at Wal Mart. I've been lied to by this administration and I want justice :rolleyes:

[usmc-sooner]

Knock! Knock! Hello sir, have you heard about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Gaaaaawd Damn Christians are attacking us!!!!


or,

Booooooooom! I just killed your family. Praise Allah for his good deeds.

Don't you realize that Baptists and Americans say mean things like turn Iran into glass and then follow through. If you look at all the times we've turned Iran into glass I think your being pretty insensative.

and come on man really have you ever heard of a Muslim strapping on a bomb and blowing innocent civilians up. I mean has it ever happened once. I bet if you go back in time you can't find one example. They have such a peaceful past and they get along so well with each other and the rest of the world.

WTF is wrong with you Kabookie. Get your shIITe together. :D

[GottaHavePride]

This discussion is funny. The article about this I saw in the paper led with the statistic that 80% of American Muslims think bombing innocent targets is never acceptable, and then added that 1 in 4 of the young generation thinks that attack like that might be an acceptable tactic under extreme circumstances.

Kind of a different slant on it. It's like taking a poll and saying "Are you pro-life or pro-[/i]death[/i]?"

[PAW]

There's some good news about the majority of our Muslim neighbors, but the number of young Muslims in America who think think strapping on a bomb and killing innocent civilians is OK should concern people. There is a growing radical movement among younger Muslims in America and if the 1,000's of youth cited who support suicide bombings of civilians don't concern you, then I don't know what to say. Even if the actual numbers are half of what the poll uncovered, there is reason for concern regardless of the sanitized headlines in most of the media.

[Vaevictis]

not sure our current enemy is so conventional. who the hell do we talk to anyway?

The people who have already signed up are a lost cause.

You have to "talk" to their pool of potential recruits. Address the political and economic reasons why people are receptive to their message and terrorist organizations wither as their recruiting base dries up. Just ask the IRA and ETA.

(And for those of you who think that Christianity is any different and never gets used by groups like these, you might want to take a look at the NLFT, LRA, and what's going on with the Christian militias in Indonesia. Bad economic and political situations are generally the forces that put these groups in motion and keep them in motion, not the religion. The religion is usually just something common to the slighted group, and is something that is easy to rally around and/or use for recruitment.)

[Widescreen]

The people who have already signed up are a lost cause.

You have to "talk" to their pool of potential recruits. Address the political and economic reasons why people are receptive to their message and terrorist organizations wither as their recruiting base dries up. Just ask the IRA and ETA.

(And for those of you who think that Christianity is any different and never gets used by groups like these, you might want to take a look at the NLFT, LRA, and what's going on with the Christian militias in Indonesia. Bad economic and political situations are generally the forces that put these groups in motion and keep them in motion, not the religion. The religion is usually just something common to the slighted group, and is something that is easy to rally around and/or use for recruitment.)
Wow! It's so simple!

[Vaevictis]

Wow! It's so simple!

Simple? Hardly. Addressing the political and economic reasons takes at least a generation, and that's if you execute almost perfectly. (I think Iraq may have been an attempt at this, actually. And it's an example of what happens if you botch the execution...)

But blaming it all on a people's religion certainly doesn't help, and probably makes things worse.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

It looks like people aren't going to wake up until they nuke us.

How many times do they have to tell us point blank: "We want to kill you!" and yet look at all of the attempts here to equate what's really going on in the world with those 'fundy Christians.' Yeah, the real threat! :rolleyes:

Some of you need to pull your head out of your arse and take a look at all the multitudes of wars going across the globe today. Guess what you'll find? The muslims are conducting Jihad across the planet, as their religion teaches them to do, and are involved in almost every single armed conflict on Earth now. And it didn't start when George Bush became president. It's far easier to name all of the wars going on that don't have anything to do with muslims because there are very few of them.

I'm sure there are plenty of good muslims, but I don't hear very many of them speak out against the fundemental fringe of their society. They have a large population hell-bent on destroying us and yet the libs here can't help themselves from taking shots at something they fear more: those d*mned Bible thumpers!! Yeah, they might not vote the way you want them to, but until I see them flying airplanes into buildings and crashing fuel tankers into crowded markets, I'm not going to fall for your b.s. script that the Baptists 'are just as bad!'This should be a sticky, entitled something like "When your hatred for Christians flares up, read this monologue". Jerk says it succinctly, here.

[Harry Beanbag]

The religion is usually just something common to the slighted group, and is something that is easy to rally around and/or use for recruitment.


I have to agree with you here. I've been saying for a few years now that religion is just a red herring, this conflict is all about power and money just like everything else is.

[Okieflyer]

Some of you need to pull your head out of your arse and take a look at all the multitudes of wars going across the globe today. Guess what you'll find? The muslims are conducting Jihad across the planet, as their religion teaches them to do, and are involved in almost every single armed conflict on Earth now. And it didn't start when George Bush became president. It's far easier to name all of the wars going on that don't have anything to do with muslims because there are very few of them.

This is the nicer way to put it. This is the way most live their lives.

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/ostrich.jpg

But I agree 100%

[Condescending Sooner]

But to say that non-Muslims won't ever, for instance, load giant bombs into Ryder trucks and kill innocents in support of their own beliefs is, well, silly.




Has it ever been proven that McVeigh was a Christian? I hear this lame argument all the time, but I don't believe his religion has ever been divulged. I thought it was his hatred of the government that motivated him.

[Pricetag]

Has it ever been proven that McVeigh was a Christian? I hear this lame argument all the time, but I don't believe his religion has ever been divulged. I thought it was his hatred of the government that motivated him.
He didn't say he was. His point was that he was not Muslim, and that there have been plenty of acts of random violence, particularly in this country, perpetrated by non-Muslims.

[picasso]

The people who have already signed up are a lost cause.

You have to "talk" to their pool of potential recruits. Address the political and economic reasons why people are receptive to their message and terrorist organizations wither as their recruiting base dries up. Just ask the IRA and ETA.


ok, aren't we trying our best to explain our cause.

my point is that using Reagan and the old Russia is a bad comparison. We're not going to schedule meetings with all of the terrorist organizations and show them all of the new fancy gadgets we have.

[picasso]

I have to agree with you here. I've been saying for a few years now that religion is just a red herring, this conflict is all about power and money just like everything else is.
you really think the hardest of the hardcore terrorists give a flip about money?
to fund their cause perhaps but the root of it is to control the world.

not sure there's any good solutions at this point.

[Vaevictis]

my point is that using Reagan and the old Russia is a bad comparison. We're not going to schedule meetings with all of the terrorist organizations and show them all of the new fancy gadgets we have.

I agree. Talking with the terrorist organizations themselves is likely pointless. We're not going to give them what they want, nor are they going to give us what we want.

We've just got to dry up their recruitment base.


you really think the hardest of the hardcore terrorists give a flip about money?
to fund their cause perhaps but the root of it is to control the world.

not sure there's any good solutions at this point.

Yeah, but the hardest of the hardcore can't operate without recruits to do their dirty work. Cut off the recruits, and eventually the organization will wither.

[JohnnyMack]

How many young American's think it would be OK to kill innocent civilians in an airstrike that was aimed to take out a suspected terrorist?

Basically the same thing. In the mind of many Muslims they see themselves as "at war" with those who aren't like them. Not placing a judgment on any actions here, just pointing it out.

[BigRedJed]

Has it ever been proven that McVeigh was a Christian? I hear this lame argument all the time, but I don't believe his religion has ever been divulged. I thought it was his hatred of the government that motivated him.
Did I call him a Christian? I called him a non-Muslim. Suddenly I'm lumped in with the "libz" and this thread (apparently based on my responses) is about hating Christians. I never said anything about Christians. Some of you are just dying to turn it into that. I responded to assertions, more or less, that only Muslims were capable of bombing or killing innocents to further their cause. I disagree. I gave the OKC bombing as an example of a non-Muslim bombing innocents to support his beliefs, which were in this case anti-government. He was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, U.S. Army war hero.

But have people done horrible things in the name of Christianity? Of course they have. Eric Rudolph ring a bell? He's not the only anti-abortion bomber, BTW. The KKK often operated in the name of Christianity. Many current white supremicists do. Do I think this is an indictment of Christianity? **** no. Do I think these nutjobs bear ANY resemblance to normal, God-fearing, middle American Christians, the people who live next door to you and me? Nope.

Do some more-or-less normal, God-fearing people funnel money to fringe groups who perform some of these acts, much as some Muslims funnel money overseas? I'm sure they do. But that doesn't say anything negative towards Christianity, it only shows that claiming to be "Christian" doesn't ensure that someone is a good person. Just as it doesn't mean that being Muslim means you believe in killing and bloody jihad.

Do I believe that a disproportionate amount of Muslims worldwide believe in the fundamentalist teachings of their mullahs? Do I believe that many of them want to kill us? Absolutely. I said so in my previous post. Do I believe that many of them are beyond redemption, and need to die before they kill us? Yes. Do I shed a single tear for a terrorist who is killed by our soldiers before being able to carry out some new form of terror? Not at all.

I've read the Koran. If interpreted literally, as many of these people do, it's a frightening book. It speaks often of death to non-believers, of judgment and violent retribution. Of course, so does the Bible in places, which I have also read, several times over. The danger is when anyone takes many of the teachings of these books in a manner so literal that they feel God is telling them to take matters in their own hands, to exact vengance for Him.

Did I not say that Islam needs to get its house in order? Did I not agree that the number of its practitioners who condone violence is unacceptable? My only point was to say that painting them ALL with the same brush only adds to the problem. Especially American Muslims, who have yet to bomb a bus, as far as I know. Hating people because they don't look like you, or don't think like you, or don't worship like you, is EXACTLY what they are doing. Don't you see the irony? It's actually *gulp* not Christian.

The second chapter of James rails on faith without works. Calling yourself Christian is not good enough. Condemning others for not being Christian? Well, that's worse than not good enough, IMO. To actually be a Christian, it seems that following the example of Jesus would be a good place to start.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/22/AR2007052201463_2.html




Bastages. BURN 'EM ALL!!!

Leave it to MDKlatt to quote the only article that didn't mention the 1 in 5 young islam response that feel it is okay to bomb people for your religion.

While I am glad to see the first generation is assimulated, the real concern is the youth and if the mosques and the mullahs and imams don't start speaking out against this interpretation of the faith, then they will lose any authority that may have and people in the country will (understandably) start taking measure into their own hands.

[Scott D]

what about the countless muslims here in the states that certainly wont strap on a belt bomb, but gladly funnel money back to the homeland to support those that do?

i think if you had any inkling as to the numbers that engage in that, you'd be shocked

Why shocked?, we appeared to be just fine ignoring all of the countless Irish-American businesses and individuals whom funneled money back to the IRA when they were still in their angry militant let's blow up everything English phase.

[Scott D]

Do you mean turning them into a sheet of glass? Or are you referring to the current war? Because that vs. the Cold War are apples and oranges.

well it was more in reference to the whole "Communication before deciding that just killing everyone might be the best course of action" policy.

[BigRedJed]

The people who have already signed up are a lost cause.

You have to "talk" to their pool of potential recruits. Address the political and economic reasons why people are receptive to their message and terrorist organizations wither as their recruiting base dries up. Just ask the IRA and ETA.

(And for those of you who think that Christianity is any different and never gets used by groups like these, you might want to take a look at the NLFT, LRA, and what's going on with the Christian militias in Indonesia. Bad economic and political situations are generally the forces that put these groups in motion and keep them in motion, not the religion. The religion is usually just something common to the slighted group, and is something that is easy to rally around and/or use for recruitment.)
Exactly. The IRA was a great example of that. Ask Northern Ireland about bombings in the name of religion.

The solution is to kill/contain those who are too far gone, and try to end the conditions that cause the new recruits to be so willing.

[BigRedJed]

Dammit. Now I'm the copycat.

[Scott D]

Does that mean you're not? I was just curious, because on every post that concerns Muslims, you stumble all over yourself defending them. If you are then fine, just admit it.

Oh clearly, I'm an angry white young male whom is disenfranchised enough with Christian America that I feel I must wage personal jihad against them, so rather than joining the Aryan Nation I decided to turn to the preachings of militant Islam. :rolleyes:

[Scott D]

Dammit. Now I'm the copycat.

I prefer to think that we're just sane. :)

[Condescending Sooner]

[QUOTE=BigRedJed]Did I call him a Christian? I called him a non-Muslim [QUOTE]


No, but several others have. He is always brought up as a counter-argument. He was one nut-job who is no longer with us. I just get tired of people using him as justification for defending radicals.

[KABOOKIE]

How many young American's think it would be OK to kill innocent civilians in an airstrike that was aimed to take out a suspected terrorist?

Basically the same thing. In the mind of many Muslims they see themselves as "at war" with those who aren't like them. Not placing a judgment on any actions here, just pointing it out.


It's not OK. It's a possibility of war. The difference is a good percentage of arabs think TARGETING CIVILIANS it’s not only OK but f’ing cool!!

[Vaevictis]

It's not OK. It's a possibility of war. The difference is a good percentage of arabs think TARGETING CIVILIANS it’s not only OK but f’ing cool!!

I know we like to pretend that we don't do the same thing, but when pushed far enough, we do.

(... in case you hadn't noticed, they think they've been pushed far enough.)

[Condescending Sooner]

Oh clearly, I'm an angry white young male whom is disenfranchised enough with Christian America that I feel I must wage personal jihad against them, so rather than joining the Aryan Nation I decided to turn to the preachings of militant Islam. :rolleyes:


See was it that hard?

[BigRedJed]

No, but several others have. He is always brought up as a counter-argument. He was one nut-job who is no longer with us. I just get tired of people using him as justification for defending radicals.
Wait a minute... ...you quoted me, didn't you? And then you went off on whether or not he was Christian, as if that was my point. So you're saying that your past experience with other posters is causing you to paint me with the same brush? Telling...

Edit: sorry, had to edit your cluster**** of a quote job.

[KABOOKIE]

I know we like to pretend that we don't do the same thing, but when pushed far enough, we do.

(... in case you hadn't noticed, they think they've been pushed far enough.)


Really? We've targted civilians in this war? OK Rosie.

[Scott D]

See was it that hard?

clearly easier than it is for you to get an accurate read in any way, shape or form of me.

[Vaevictis]

Really? We've targted civilians in this war? OK Rosie.

I'm quite sure I said nothing about which war(s) we've done it in. Just that, when pushed far enough, we do.

[BigRedJed]

Listen fellas, enjoy your little religion/politics hatefest. Every few months, I allow myself to get dragged into one of them, and always regret it. It solves nothing, it changes no minds. It's basically just a big circlejerk.

So I'm bowing out of this one. Consider me vanquished by your overwhelming righteousness, if you must. The fact of the matter is that I'm supposed to hold myself to a higher standard if I expect to call other people for being out of line. Now that I've actually participated in this colossal jerkoff, it wouldn't be right for me to lock it when it gets (as it will) even more hatefilled and ugly. That bums me out a bit. Hopefully someone else will monitor it and put it out of its misery before someone gets hurt.

[BU BEAR]

Has it ever been proven that McVeigh was a Christian? I hear this lame argument all the time, but I don't believe his religion has ever been divulged. I thought it was his hatred of the government that motivated him.

His choice for a last statement, a defiant secular humanist anthem called "Invictus", would be a more logical choice for an atheist/agnostic type rather than a Christian's choice of last words.

[Frozen Sooner]

McVeigh claimed to be an agnostic.

However, he requested a Catholic priest to hear his last confession before death.

So who knows? I lean towards him being an agnostic who was trying to cover his bases.

[Frozen Sooner]

And Invictus is hardly a "humanist anthem."

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of Circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of Chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I know we like to pretend that we don't do the same thing, but when pushed far enough, we do.

(... in case you hadn't noticed, they think they've been pushed far enough.)

No, they want everyone to live under islam in a theocracy...

[BU BEAR]

And Invictus is hardly a "humanist anthem."

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of Circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of Chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Looks pretty humanistic to me. We have one reference to a generic "gods", "whatever they may be". The author mentions no specific deity and he is not certain what diety may be responsible for his "unconquerable soul".

In the end, these "gods" may well be the proper nouns, "Horror", "Chance" and "Circumstance". Chance and Circumstance and randomness occupy a place of preeminence in the minds and theology of humanists, atheists, etc...

Who is in control in the end? Not any real god, but the person subject of the poem is in control. Another hallmark of atheistic/humanistic thinking is that people are in control.

Just my perspective on the poem. It seems very humanistic to me.

[Frozen Sooner]

And from my perspective, the poem references the existence of the soul twice and references gods being responsible for said soul-which is hard to reconcile with humanism.

[TopDaugIn2000]

I liked this thread 'til it got all serious and stuff....

[BU BEAR]

And from my perspective, the poem references the existence of the soul twice and references gods being responsible for said soul-which is hard to reconcile with humanism.

Everyone has a soul in the sense that they have a psyche and personality. "Soul" does not necessarily reference something that is immortal or survives your physical death.

http://www.englishverse.com/poets/henley_william_ernest

Henley, the author, was an atheist.

"I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul."

to


"I am the captain of my soul."

Perhaps the author is one of the "gods" in addition to Chance, Circumstance and Horror that is responsible for him having an "unconquerable soul".

In any event, you would not expect an atheist to write a poem praising a higher power he thinks does not exist.

[Frozen Sooner]

And simply because a poem is written by an atheist it is not a "humanist anthem." It can certainly be taken that way, but to me it's a celebration of courage and fortitude in the face of overwhelming odds.

Anyhow, I think we're agreed that McVeigh was hardly a fundamentalist Christian of any stripe and probably wasn't a Christian at all.

[BU BEAR]

And simply because a poem is written by an atheist it is not a "humanist anthem." It can certainly be taken that way, but to me it's a celebration of courage and fortitude in the face of overwhelming odds.

Anyhow, I think we're agreed that McVeigh was hardly a fundamentalist Christian of any stripe and probably wasn't a Christian at all.

Yeah, we agree on McVeigh.

But we really need to do is get into a street basketball type argument over the correct interpretation of a poem... especially when there could be more than one interpretation.

[Frozen Sooner]

Everyone has a soul in the sense that they have a psyche and personality. "Soul" does not necessarily reference something that is immortal or survives your physical death.

http://www.englishverse.com/poets/henley_william_ernest

Henley, the author, was an atheist.

"I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul."

to


"I am the captain of my soul."

Perhaps the author is one of the "gods" in addition to Chance, Circumstance and Horror that is responsible for him having an "unconquerable soul".

In any event, you would not expect an atheist to write a poem praising a higher power he thinks does not exist.

Considering that site doesn't even get the circumstances of Henley's penning the poem correctly, I'd take it with a grain of salt. He did not write it on his deathbed. He wrote it directly after having his leg amputated from tuberculosis-and lived quite a while afterwards.

[Condescending Sooner]

clearly easier than it is for you to get an accurate read in any way, shape or form of me.


What you SAY you are and the messages conveyed in your posts are two totally different visions. I don't think you can even define your beliefs.

[Condescending Sooner]

Wait a minute... ...you quoted me, didn't you? And then you went off on whether or not he was Christian, as if that was my point. So you're saying that your past experience with other posters is causing you to paint me with the same brush? Telling...

Edit: sorry, had to edit your cluster**** of a quote job.


I asked a question. You are the one that went off.

[JohnnyMack]

Oh clearly, I'm an angry white young male whom is disenfranchised enough with Christian America that I feel I must wage personal jihad against them, so rather than joining the Aryan Nation I decided to turn to the preachings of militant Islam. :rolleyes:

Stupid Honkey.

[BU BEAR]

Considering that site doesn't even get the circumstances of Henley's penning the poem correctly, I'd take it with a grain of salt. He did not write it on his deathbed. He wrote it directly after having his leg amputated from tuberculosis-and lived quite a while afterwards.

Who to believe: Englishverse or wikipedia?

[Frozen Sooner]

Or the Encyclopedia Britannica?

The poem was first published in 1875.

Henley died in 1903.

Please tell me how a poem published in 1875 was a deathbed affirmation of atheism for someone who died in 1903.

[BU BEAR]

Or the Encyclopedia Britannica?


Those guys are notoriously wrong about lots of things.

On a serious note, was the guy an atheist? Yes or no?

[Frozen Sooner]

Haven't put a lot of study into it. I do know that until the last couple of decades public revelation of personal atheism or agnosticism was fairly rare, so even if there's no direct quote attributable to him stating that he was an atheist it doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't one.

[BU BEAR]

Mike,

I have found several sites that say Henley was either an atheist or an agnostic.

However, you (and the Ecyclopedia Britanica) are correct that the poem could not be a deathbed confirmation of such since he died in the early 1900s and the poem was written in the late 1800s.

(I did not mean to repeat your post above. I just saw that you expanded your original thought to include the death date and date of the poem.)

[Frozen Sooner]

Cool. I'm willing to concede that he was, but it's not really central to the discussion. Simply that he was either an agnostic or an atheist doesn't make his poem nothing more than a "humanist anthem." That description of it is rather dismissive of a work that has much broader application than that.

Similarly, Galileo was not an atheist, but his arguments are used as inspiration for atheists. E pur se mouva (I think I just mangled the Latin. :))

[BU BEAR]

Cool. I'm willing to concede that he was, but it's not really central to the discussion. Simply that he was either an agnostic or an atheist doesn't make his poem nothing more than a "humanist anthem." That description of it is rather dismissive of a work that has much broader application than that.



Ok. So, it is a "humanist anthem" and then some. I am comfortable with that.

[Scott D]

What you SAY you are and the messages conveyed in your posts are two totally different visions. I don't think you can even define your beliefs.

I apologize for not fitting into your neat little non complex world. Do us both a favor and put me on ignore since I seem to confuse you so much.

[BU BEAR]

http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/39248.html

[Frozen Sooner]

Mike,

I have found several sites that say Henley was either an atheist or an agnostic.

However, you (and the Ecyclopedia Britanica) are correct that the poem could not be a deathbed confirmation of such since he died in the early 1900s and the poem was written in the late 1800s.

(I did not mean to repeat your post above. I just saw that you expanded your original thought to include the death date and date of the poem.)

All good. Like I said, I think characterizing Invictus as simply a "Humanist Anthem" is a fairly flawed way of looking at one of the more influential poems of the last 200 years.

[Ike]

meh. I thought the survey was pretty pointless the first time.

[BU BEAR]

All good. Like I said, I think characterizing Invictus as simply a "Humanist Anthem" is a fairly flawed way of looking at one of the more influential poems of the last 200 years.


I never said that there was no other way to look at the poem. I do believe that it is valid to characterize it as a "humanist anthem" and you seem to accept the characterization while noting that it has even broader application.

I am comfortable with the stance it is more than a humanist anthem. Can you be comfortable with the position that it is at least a humanist anthem? You seem to indicate that you can in your comments above.

[BigRedJed]

Merge.

[BU BEAR]

Merge.

Sorry, Mod.

[Frozen Sooner]

*sigh*

We're really determined to beat this into the ground, aren't we?

Chalk it up to I misunderstood you to be dismissing Invictus as nothing more than a "humanist anthem"-which I think was reasonable based on your word choice-and we'll leave it at that. Everyone gets to be right. Yes, it certainly does have themes that can be interpreted from a humanist standpoint.

[BigRedJed]

Sorry, Mod.
No need to apologize, I just didn't see a need for two threads on the same subject. Common practice around here.

[BigRedJed]

*sigh*

We're really determined to beat this into the ground, aren't we?

Chalk it up to I misunderstood you to be dismissing Invictus as nothing more than a "humanist anthem"-which I think was reasonable based on your word choice-and we'll leave it at that. Everyone gets to be right. Yes, it certainly does have themes that can be interpreted from a humanist standpoint.
That's alright Froze, come over here and sit by me and we can watch this thing spin out of control until BSG locks it.

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

Just say when...

[Scott D]

when

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

*click*

[BigRedJed]

DRUNK WITH POWER!!!

[BlondeSoonerGirl]

:les: whass mah name foo?!?!?

[Frozen Sooner]

If by "shake hands with" you mean "rub vigorously" and by "Muslim friend" you're referring to the little dude in my pants with a turban...


IN!

[Frozen Sooner]

We have to take our...clothes off!
We have to party...all night!
We have to take our...clothes off!
To have a good time yeah yeah...

[BigRedJed]

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED, DAMN YOU!

[Frozen Sooner]

PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!