Sonics beat the odds... [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

BigRedJed

5/23/2007, 10:58 AM

It's not out of the question. As a matter of fact, it's one of the scenerios that lands a team in OKC next season.

Bottom line, I believe the Sonics are coming here.
Bottom line, I believe there will be an NBA team here, in which Clay & Co. own a controlling interest or a minority interest with first right of refusal on the controlling interest when it becomes available. Whether that team is the Sonics remains to be seen. If by "next season" you mean '07-'08, you couldn't be more wrong.

I said I wouldn't lay out the scenarios again, but I guess I will, and I'll try to do it as succinctly as possible.

I still believe the most likely scenario is an 11th hour deal in Seattle to keep the Sonics there. Shinn chokes on it after a season or two in NOLA and is allowed to either sell to Clay & Co. or move to OKC with a sales agreement like the one I detailed above. The OKC investors would now have $100 million in FREE MONEY for this deal burning a hole in their collective pockets (as the Sonics would be valued that much higher than the price they originally paid, once an arena deal is complete), after they easily sell the stabilized franchise to Seattle investors for a HUGE profit.

That scenario also works if the Sonics relocate to a city like Vegas, where they are still worth much, much more than they are here.

Kansas City is a wild card, because although they have a beautiful arena on the way, they would be splitting a slightly larger corporate/season ticket holder market three ways (NFL, MLB, NBA), while OKC would only have to support one team (throw in Sooner football if you want, but KC also has a TON of people supporting various schools, KU hoop, K-State football, various Mizzou sports and even Nebraska football). Not to mention that Anschutz Entertainment, who will operate the Sprint Center and has put a huge amount of their own cash into it, is an existing NHL owner and has stated a desire to bring the NHL to KC. Kansas City isn't much of a threat to OKC's NBA chances, IMO. They might be a viable market, but would rank behind OKC in desirability at this point for that league.

Everyone involved knows that Shinn is in HUGE trouble in NOLA, and will be teetering on bankruptcy after one or two seasons. The league then determines where if anywhere that he can move and who if anyone that he can sell to. The OKC investor group, if they maximize their potential profit on the Sonics, can buy a franchise (or minority interest with a majority option) really, really cheap, move it to OKC and be the heroes for their hometown. Oh, and be much, much more wealthy than if they had brought the Seattle team here.

Moving the Sonics to OKC represents about $200 million in lost potential profit for the OKC investors. And the NBA will still have to deal with a failing franchise in NOLA. Believe me, moving the Sonics here is NOT the preferred option, either of the league, or of the OKC investors. It's a good option if everything else fails. These guys don't like to fail.

Like I've been saying for the past year: no NBA in OKC for '07-'08, decent chance in '08-'09 (probably the best opportunity for that is for the Seattle deal to absolutely tank, and you still have the possibility of the Sonics moving to a more lucrative market), and a near lock by '09-'10. And, again, I would give a slight edge to that team being the Hornets.

BigRedJed

5/23/2007, 11:06 AM

It's hard for me to do, as I know it is for others, but my scenarios require that you take off your fan hat and your OKC booster hat, and think purely like a businessman. Believe me, that's what those guys are doing.

Mjcpr

5/23/2007, 11:20 AM

Can you at least tell us the potential scenarios?

scotplum

5/23/2007, 11:28 AM

Well, looks like Kevin Durant is coming to Oklahoma after all. ;)

The soon to be OKC Sonics (or some version there of) only had a 1.6% chance of getting one of the top two pics in the NBA lottery.

Actually, they had around a 20% chance of landing one of the top 2 picks.

Seamus

5/23/2007, 12:58 PM

I wish! The only thing better than an NBA team would be an NFL team.

An NFL team coming to this market, I think, would not be good. An NBA team will always be little more than a distraction, but an NFL team would jeopardize OU's status as king in the state. A huge amount of resources (i.e. media) would be reallocated to covering the NFL team, to the detriment of OU, as well as the other schools in state.

I've never been in favor of such a scenario. College football, for the most part, thrives most heartily in areas where there is no NFL team. In areas where successful college programs coexist with NFL franchises -- Michigan, Georgia, Florida -- there are far bigger population centers for a fan base and/or the NFL teams have been there for ages. I think introducing that element into Oklahoma would have a serious negative effect.

BigRedJed

5/23/2007, 01:03 PM

Big Red Ron

5/23/2007, 07:04 PM

OKC is likely decades away from being a potential NFL market. It's not unprecedented, though. Cities like Phoenix and Nashville were backwaters at one point and grew exponentially over the past 30 years or so. OKC has that potential right now, if it keeps developing the way it has the past 10.

That said, I think it would be bad for OU football no matter when it happened, and I'd just as soon never see it.Sure, but in a perfect world, I would choose to have an NFL team before any other Pro Athletic team.

Oh, and while it's unlikely that we'll have a team next season, it isn't impossible. As a matter of fact, Shinn is doing everything possible to stay here next season. If we have a team, again unlikely, next season, it would be the Hornets.

I also know that theses guys are businessmen and are in it for the $$$ but we're not talking about losing money to come to OKC. KC has a nice arena and will do anything to get an NBA franchise, however, the fact that they have MLB and NFL actually makes their NBA market share slightly smaller than OKC's.

I'm just happy we didn't get that NHL expansion team about five years ago.

Big Red Ron

5/24/2007, 06:34 AM

Actually, they had around a 20% chance of landing one of the top 2 picks. Actually 18.5%, my initial post was meant to be in reference to the chance of getting the numba one pick. They were the odds that ESPN ran at the bottom of the page during the draft.

Anyways, very cool deal!

King Crimson

5/24/2007, 07:14 AM

i think the Sonics getting the #2 in the NBA lottery (possibly the dirtiest, least credible event in sports) says that Stern (total jerkoff) wants to make a late play to keep the Sonics in Seattle and give them Durant and a new fan buzz.

BigRedJed

5/24/2007, 10:30 AM

...Oh, and while it's unlikely that we'll have a team next season, it isn't impossible. As a matter of fact, Shinn is doing everything possible to stay here next season. If we have a team, again unlikely, next season, it would be the Hornets.

I also know that theses guys are businessmen and are in it for the $$$ but we're not talking about losing money to come to OKC. KC has a nice arena and will do anything to get an NBA franchise, however, the fact that they have MLB and NFL actually makes their NBA market share slightly smaller than OKC's...
The Hornets have ZERO shot of staying here for '07-'08. They are being shown the door. This is orchestrated. The City won't let it happen, and David Stern damn sure won't let it happen. The best shot OKC has for getting a team long term in large part hinges on the Hornets leaving. As much as I'd love going to Hornets games next season, IT WON'T HAPPEN.

As for what you say about KC, I agree completely. It's exactly what I've been saying all along; their overall market, which is not much larger than OKC, would be split three ways. The math doesn't work in their favor. Not to mention the fact that they are an unproven (in fact previously failed) NBA market, while OKC is as close as you can get to a proven market at this point. KC's not nearly the threat Vegas would be if the casinos and the league could work out the bookmaking issues.

NormanPride

5/24/2007, 11:41 AM

I thought the league hated Vegas after all the problems they had there for the all-star game?

SteelClip49

5/24/2007, 12:46 PM

Las Vegas has enough entertainment and no one would go to the games. UNLV basketball is enough.

Kansas City and Louisville could support a team. Oklahoma City may be an NBA city but I don't think we are ready for one yet.

scotplum

5/24/2007, 01:50 PM

Kansas City and Louisville could support a team. Oklahoma City may be an NBA city but I don't think we are ready for one yet.

I'm a little confused and am curious as to what is your reasoning behind that comment? If anything, the past two years have shown OKC is very ready to become an NBA city.

BigRedJed

5/24/2007, 02:10 PM

Hmmm... ...prior to OKC hosting the Hornets, only five "presenting sponsors" had ever existed, league-wide. Five total. No team in the league had more than one presenting sposor. A presenting sponsor is a corporate entity that provides more than $1 million in support during a season. The first year the Hornets were here, they enjoyed the support of FIVE presenting sponsors, all by themselves. The next year, after Kerr-McGee was gone, the remaining four picked up their slack, and the team actually had more in corporate support than in the year before. This, after the CEOs of several those companies bought a competing team in another city.

The Hornets were in the top half of the league in attendance both years. If the lackluster Louisiana games from both seasons had not been factored into those totals, they would have been in the top third both years. This when they were below .500 both seasons, and the second season played with the knowledge that the Hornets were leaving. The Hornets were in the top five in group sales their first season, and though I'm not sure where they landed this past one, I'm guessing it was similar.

David Stern, everybody associated with the Hornets organization, and NBA media throughout the country swear that OKC is ready. But you don't. Man, that's a headscratcher. To me, it sounds like more of the poormouthing of their own state that Oklahomans are famous for. Count me out.

OSUAggie

5/24/2007, 02:35 PM

How much did the idea of Oklahoma City getting to 'prove itself' as a major league city influence the "presenting sponsors'" decision to invest so much?

And would that ideology remain with a different franchise that will inevitably be relocated under far different circumstances?

Also, were the ticket prices around par with other NBA cities or was special consideration given in an effort to express gratitude?

I'm just asking questions, I don't have an opinion on this matter either way.

BigRedJed

5/24/2007, 03:01 PM

I think the presenting sponsors would be in for the long haul, especially considering the ties many of them would have to the ownership if the Sonics came here or if the OKC investors owned a different team that came here. Listen, we don't have to be the best team in attendance or in corporate sponsorship. We don't have to perform to the same level we did the past two years to still be a successful franchise. If OKC settled down to middle-of-the-pack in every category, it would still be more than impressive considering the smallish nature of the market.

Also, the ticket prices were definitely on the low end of the league, but still very consistent with the pricing strategy the Hornets have always had. In Charlotte and in NOLA, they tried to have a large number of really, really cheap seats and to be on the low end of the spectrum overall so that the attendance would be high. The last year in NOLA, Hornets tickets were, if I remember right, two slots above the cheapest in the league. In '05-'06 in OKC/Norman/NOLA/Baton Rouge they were next-to-last, several in front of Golden State. That number is misleading, however, because of the discounted/free tickets from games played at those other sites.

'06-'07 numbers aren't yet on the site that I reference, but there was a significant bump in prices, plus no free games, etc. Those numbers will probably be much closer to the real numbers OKC residents would pay, somewhere in the mid $30 for an average ticket. This would by far not be the cheapest average ticket in the leage, and would be within a couple of dollars of what people pay in Denver, Detroit, Memphis, Charlotte, Orlando, etc.

Premier cities/teams are what set the curve for NBA prices, and that is what most people think of when they talk about them. New York, Miami, LA, Dallas. All of these teams command prices WAY over the league average, which is around $46/ticket. Dallas is $53.60, NY is $70.51, LA is $7921 (all '05-'06). Because there are some teams that are so far above average, naturally there are teams that are below league average. OKC would be one of those. It would HAVE to be one of those. And one of the reasons it can always be one of those is the Ford Center.

Nobody ever factors that in, but the FC is a huge part of the appeal of OKC to a team, because it is 100% paid for, thanks to MAPs. The city can go into an agreement with a team and LITERALLY CHARGE NO RENT, settling instead for a share of concessions, etc. Rent in many of these buildings is a significant part of the ticket price. The AAC cost nearly $400 million to build. Debt service alone is enormous.

NormanPride

5/24/2007, 04:01 PM

Isn't OKC looking to make another arena just for the NBA team that might show up?

I personally think sending an NBA team to OKC is a no-brainer. They did amazingly well when the Hornets were there, and the community seemed overjoyed to even be a part of the NBA. I live in Tulsa, and even I was pumped. :)

CobraKai

5/24/2007, 04:09 PM

I think OKC knocked it out of the park, and proved beyond any doubt they are ready. Keep in mind that OKC has $1.2 million people, which makes it larger than several major league cities, and comparable to several more. We are not talking about another Green Bay here...we are talking about another Detroit, Pittsburgh, Memphis, Columbus, Sacramento, etc...a mid-sized city with 1 to 1.5 million peeps.

BigRedJed

5/24/2007, 05:45 PM

Isn't OKC looking to make another arena just for the NBA team that might show up?...
No. It was suggested by a sports reporter that it would be necessary to "keep up with the Joneses" by building a new arena. He suggested that the FC is already outdated. He was incorrect; it's not outdated, it just wasn't originally built with ALL of the bells and whistles that will be demanded. They knew this going in. It's a really good shell of an NBA building.

The fact of the matter is that the City has already been looking at the updates that will be needed to permanently house an NBA franchise here, and it can be done in the FC with about $60 million. Some of that money will likely be public, some private. Some will also probably come from a new naming deal, which is up for negotiation soon.

Big Red Ron

5/24/2007, 08:54 PM

No. It was suggested by a sports reporter that it would be necessary to "keep up with the Joneses" by building a new arena. He suggested that the FC is already outdated. He was incorrect; it's not outdated, it just wasn't originally built with ALL of the bells and whistles that will be demanded. They knew this going in. It's a really good shell of an NBA building.

The fact of the matter is that the City has already been looking at the updates that will be needed to permanently house an NBA franchise here, and it can be done in the FC with about $60 million. Some of that money will likely be public, some private. Some will also probably come from a new naming deal, which is up for negotiation soon.Yeah, you can see there is space for a lot more suits in the FC. If you look real close, it almost looks unfinished in some areas. There's certainly room to expand and the quality of things could be WAY better, but it's pretty nice.

sitzpinkler

5/30/2007, 03:44 PM

This seemed relevant to this topic.

From CNNSI:

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- The Oklahoma City businessman who owns the SuperSonics says he is losing hope that a way will be found to keep the NBA team in Seattle.

"I'm probably as pessimistic as I've been," Clay Bennett told The Oklahoman Tuesday. "Not to say I've lost complete hope. We'll evaluate thoroughly any potential lead, but we're out of ideas."

Bennett said he has begun preliminary discussions with Oklahoma City and Kansas City about possible relocation.

"My expectation and my belief is that if we leave Seattle, we're quite likely headed to Oklahoma City," Bennett said. "But that decision has to be made with appropriate due diligence. We have to do that work. Just can't proclaim we're moving here."

He said that when he and his partners first bought the Seattle SuperSonics last summer, he would drive around the Puget Sound area marveling.

"I couldn't get my hands around what good fortune, to have a team in that marketplace with a new facility," said Bennett. "I really thought we would get a deal done. An extraordinary opportunity.

"But lately, I don't have those same feelings."

Bennett said despite last week's news that the Sonics will pick second in the NBA draft, giving them either Greg Oden or Kevin Durant, there has been no momentum on finding a way to build a new arena, which is the key to keeping the team in Seattle.

"For now, without a building solution, it's our intent to play in Seattle and apply for relocation immediately after the [Oct. 31] deadline," Bennett said.

The Oklahoma City group agreed to give Seattle until Oct. 31 to produce an arena deal.

colleyvillesooner

8/13/2007, 11:00 AM

bump

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2972255

New owners intend to move Sonics if deal can't get done

OKLAHOMA CITY -- An Oklahoma City energy tycoon says the group that purchased the Seattle SuperSonics hopes to move the NBA franchise to Oklahoma City, but he acknowledges the team could make more money in the Pacific Northwest.

"But we didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle; we hoped to come here," Aubrey McClendon, chief executive of Chesapeake Energy, told The Journal Record for a story in Monday's edition. "We know it's a little more difficult financially here in Oklahoma City, but we think it's great for the community and if we could break even, we'd be thrilled."

Majority owner Clay Bennett has set an Oct. 31 deadline for an agreement on a new arena. Otherwise, he has promised to begin relocating the team. Kansas City also is considered an option as relocation; the city is looking for an anchor tenant for its new arena.

"They've got 60 days to make some decisions they haven't been willing to make in the past year," Aubrey McClendon told The Journal Record, "and if they make them in a way that satisfies Clay, then the team will stay there. If they don't meet the requirements he's laid out, the team will move, and Clay has indicated they'll come to Oklahoma City."

McClendon said he, Bennett and others in the ownership group became interested in purchasing an NBA team after the New Orleans Hornets temporarily relocated to Oklahoma City for two seasons after Hurricane Katrina.

"We started to look around, and at that time the Sonics were going through some ownership challenges in Seattle," McClendon told the newspaper. "So Clay, very artfully and skillfully, put himself in the middle of those discussions and to the great amazement and surprise to everyone in Seattle, some rednecks from Oklahoma, which we've been called, made off with the team."

Bennett's group bought the Sonics a year ago, saying the arena at the Seattle Center was outdated as the home for the NBA franchise and the WNBA's Seattle Storm.

In a statement issued earlier this month, Bennett said KeyArena -- the Sonics' current home and the smallest venue in the NBA -- is not an option for the team.

He said the Sonics' ownership group had hoped Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels would rally support to find a solution.

"Instead he focused on unworkable concepts that are not acceptable," Bennett said in his statement, adding that he hopes other civic leaders step up.

This year, the Legislature convened without authorizing any tax money to help build a new arena.

Bennett, an Oklahoma City businessman, issued a "call to action" last month, asking for offers to help save the team.

Nickels said earlier this month that if the Sonics were willing to put $100 million into a new arena or the KeyArena, then the city might be able to match it. Bennett has set an Oct. 31 deadline for an agreement on a new arena. Otherwise, he has promised to begin relocating the team. Kansas City also is considered an option as relocation; the city is looking for an anchor tenant for its new arena.

"They take pride in Seattle not needing an NBA team to be considered a world-class city. That's probably true -- they don't," McClendon told The Journal Record.

"But I think for Oklahoma City to distance itself from other midsize cities, I think enthusiastic support of a well-run, successful NBA team says a lot about the spirit of this community. We've got a can-do spirit, and we've got a fan base that's turned out. This is a sports town; nobody ever knew it was a pro sports town. I think it is."

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

GrapevineSooner

8/13/2007, 03:02 PM

Seems to me Aubrey McClendon could use a little PR advice.

And BTW, I'd hate for the city of Seattle to lose their Sonics. Even if it meant OKC gets a team.

scotplum

8/13/2007, 03:21 PM

A little damage control:

Bennett responds to McClendon commentsPosted by Eric Williams @ 12:24:19 pm Here is Clay Bennett's response, along with a clarification by minority owner Aubrey McClendon, on comments he made in today's Journal Record on wanting to bring the Seattle Sonics to Oklahoma City.

Clay Bennett

“As the controlling owner, I admire my fellow owners and appreciate their support. While they are excited about the basketball operations and the future of the team on the court, they, like me, have been disheartened by the lack of progress we have made to secure a new arena for the Sonics and Storm.

"Aubrey expressed his personal thoughts and, in context of the story, was not speaking on behalf of the ownership group. It is my hope we will see a breakthrough in the next 60 days that will result in securing a new arena for the Sonics and Storm in the Greater Seattle area.”

Aubrey McClendon

“I support our efforts to secure a new arena for the Sonics and Storm in the Greater Seattle area. Clay is the one who speaks for the ownership group. Today's interview in the Oklahoma City-based business newspaper, Journal Record, simply reflects what has been my personal desire concerning NBA basketball in Oklahoma City. It has always been my hope that Oklahoma City would have an NBA team someday.

"That said, I was always aware and understood our number one goal was to work with officials to build a new arena in the Seattle area. I have supported Clay and the ownership group to use our good faith best efforts to secure a new arena and keep the teams in Seattle. I admire Clay's tireless efforts and his persistence to get an arena and keep the teams in Seattle.

"I support him completely. The comment about my personal hopes cannot in any way be interpreted to mean the organization has not exhaustively pursued every reasonable avenue to get an arena deal done and keep the Sonics and Storm in Seattle. However, as Clay has consistently stated, a solution to the arena issue must be found by October 31.”

Mjcpr

8/13/2007, 03:35 PM

So, was Aubrey smashed when they interviewed him or what?

Big Red Ron

8/13/2007, 03:44 PM

So, was Aubrey smashed when they interviewed him or what?you might want to keep an eye over your shoulder for a few days...;)

GrapevineSooner

8/13/2007, 04:23 PM

Dear Aubrey,

Call me for advice on how to handle these kinds of situations in the Internet age.

Sincerely,

Tom Hicks.

Soonerus

8/13/2007, 11:21 PM

Aubrey did that on purpose, I guarantee....

MextheBulldog

8/14/2007, 03:23 PM

They (the OKC ownership group) have been so careful to this point to keep things cool in Seattle - meaning bending over backwards to make a new arena deal work. And any mention of OKC has been extremely hush-hush. The communications up to this point have been almost all about making Seattle work.

I find it hard to believe the statements by Mr. McClendon and Mr. Bennett were not highly planned from a timing and strategic perspective. It serves two purposes: gives Seattle one last chance and boosts OKC's confidence that this is the real deal - in other words, get your s*** together OKC.

Perhaps its all part of the playbook that David Stern gave to the OKC ownership group - "Look, I know you guys want the Hornets, but look a little to the Northwest at Seattle - give it a go for a new arena and make it look like due diligence, then once it fails (as Stern probably knew it's a lost cause up there), then you can move your team wherever you like."

Soonerus

8/14/2007, 09:11 PM

Stern hates Seattle...OKC is OK....

SoonerKnight

8/15/2007, 12:15 AM

Besides the legislature is out of session until after the deadline for an agreement to a new stadium. This is the time to let Seattle know they are taking the team elsewhere because no deal will happen since the legislature had a chance to take up this issue because Seattle would not fork over the money for a new stadium. Their loss our gain! Maybe now we can get a Hockey team as well.

colleyvillesooner

8/23/2007, 11:49 AM

Well, that certainly cost him...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2987741

Reports: Co-owner's candor about OKC costs him $250K
The NBA has fined Seattle SuperSonics co-owner Aubrey McClendon $250,000 for comments he made last week about his hopes for moving the franchise to Oklahoma City.

According to Seattle-area media reports, the NBA did not specifiy the reason for the fine. In the past, Commissioner David Stern has fined owners for statements and actions deemed not in the best interest of the league.

"But we didn't buy the team to keep it in Seattle; we hoped to come here," McClendon, the chief executive of Chesapeake Energy, told The Journal Record of Oklahoma City for a story published Aug. 12. "We know it's a little more difficult financially here in Oklahoma City, but we think it's great for the community and if we could break even, we'd be thrilled."

A spokesman for the NBA had no immediate comment Thursday and the team's ownership group declined comment.

The Seattle Times also reported that Seattle City Council member Richard McIver planned to introduce an ordinance when the council meets on Sept. 4 that would prevent the owners of the Sonics from buying out of their lease at KeyArena. That lease runs out in September 2010.

Majority owner Clay Bennett has set an Oct. 31 deadline for an agreement on a new arena in Seattle. Otherwise, he has promised to begin relocating the team. Kansas City, which is seeking an anchor tenant for its new arena, has also been rasied as an option.

"They've got 60 days to make some decisions they haven't been willing to make in the past year," McClendon was quoted as saying, "and if they make them in a way that satisfies Clay, then the team will stay there. If they don't meet the requirements he's laid out, the team will move, and Clay has indicated they'll come to Oklahoma City."

Shortly thereafter, Bennett issued a statement saying the comments were McClendon's "personal thoughts" and said McClendon was "not speaking on behalf of the ownership group."

The NBA responded to McClendon's remarks in a statement on Aug. 14, saying: "We have been assured by Mr. Bennett that Aubrey McClendon does not speak on behalf of the team."

Bennett's ownership group purchased the Sonics from a group led by Howard Schultz a year ago.

colleyvillesooner

11/2/2007, 12:28 PM

update...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3091098

colleyvillesooner

11/2/2007, 02:05 PM

another update:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/11/02/sonics.owner.ap/index.html

Sonics owner eyes relocation
Bennett will seek OK from NBA to move to Okla. City

SEATTLE (AP) -- A year after formally taking ownership of the Seattle SuperSonics and WNBA Storm, and with no plans for a new arena here, owner Clay Bennett said Friday he will file with the NBA to relocate the Sonics to Oklahoma City.

The move was hardly unexpected. Bennett had an Oct. 31 deadline -- one year from when he took ownership -- for having a plan for a new arena to replace KeyArena, which Bennett says is unacceptable and outdated. Otherwise, he said, he would ask the league for permission to move the teams.
ADVERTISEMENT

Not wanting to distract from the start of the Sonics season, Bennett backed off that deadline, but only briefly. He watched Thursday night's home opener against Phoenix from his owner's suite, spending most of the second half chatting with Hall of Famer Bill Russell while fans started spontaneous chants of "Save Our Sonics" during various points of the game.

"Today we notified commissioner (David) Stern that we intend to relocate the Sonics to Oklahoma City if we succeed in the pending litigation with the city, or are able to negotiate an early lease termination, or at the end of the lease term," Bennett said in a lengthy statement.

jdsooner

11/2/2007, 02:37 PM

Dean Blevins said last week that it is not likely for the Sonics to move to OKC and that he expects the Hornets to return.

I guess that means the Sonics will move!

boomersooner28

11/2/2007, 11:51 PM

It's 67%/84% that we get the Sonics.

Frozen Sooner

11/3/2007, 12:06 AM

Yeah, the Sonics are gone. Cool that I can still root for them though.

Big Red Ron

11/3/2007, 12:18 AM

boomersooner28

11/3/2007, 06:39 AM

This is interesting.

linkage (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-263/Save-Our-Sonics--This-Game-is-FAR-from-Over.html)

Save Our Sonics: This Game is FAR from Over

I just got off the phone with Steven Pyeatt, who is the co-founder of the Save Our Sonics and Storm movement.

I wanted to get his reaction to Clay Bennett's announcement that he is applying to the NBA to move the team. His reaction was very interesting.

For starters, even though this man has been living this project for ages, and knows all the key players, he was so unconcerned by today's news that he hadn't even bothered to read the press release.

"Clay Bennett is like the guy robbing the convenience store," says Pyeatt. "He has to convince the clerk that he has a real gun, it is loaded, and he's willing to use it. Otherwise, he's not going to get any money out of register. This is just one more step in that process."

Pyeatt is convinced that while this might be a big public relations moment, nothing has changed in assessing the power stuctures at play. And he thinks there is an excellent chance Seattle will hold onto its team.

"People have been talking like this is crunch time," he explains, "but I don't even think this game has reached halftime yet. The way I describe it is that we have a lot of hand grenades in the bucket. And we keep lobbing them at Clay Bennett, and he keeps throwing them out the window. But eventually, one of them is going to blow up in his face."

Pyeatt and I talked for the better part of an hour, during which time he recited countless reasons for Seattle basketball fans.

The local political situation has shifted dramatically. The comments of Aubrey McClendon, a report showing that the Seattle Center development without an NBA team, and the discovery of the "specific performance" clause in the lease -- seemingly a legal way to bind the team to Seattle into 2010 -- have made it so that on the Seattle City Council, according to Pyeatt, there is now unanimous support for the efforts of Save Our Sonics.
The region itself is booming in such a profound way that the NBA can't really want to leave. Pyeatt cites a study saying the population in Seattle region -- which includes, by one estimate, 70,000 millionaires -- will grow by as many people in the next decade as live in all of Oklahoma City. Also, as Clay Bennett pointed out when he first bought the team, a lot of those people will be high wage-earners working for Microsoft and the like. What's more, Seattle is a gateway to the Pacific Rim and Asia -- the key growth area for the NBA overseas.
The state-wide political scene has changed dramatically, too. Pyeatt: "The governor of Washington won or lost her office -- depending who you ask about the recount -- by about 130 votes. Sonic fans have let her know that there are more than 130 of them who would like her to keep the team here. And if the team is playing its first game in Oklahoma City next November 2, that won't be good for her re-election effort on November 4."
Pyeatt has not heard specifics, but has heard through back channels that the city and state governments have agreed in principle to a plan that they are both happy with to fund an arena.
A dark-horse candidate to build an arena, the Muckleshoot Tribe, has the land, the cash, and the will to get a stadium done, and has contributed mightily to Washington state politics.

It is very expensive for Clay Bennett and his co-owners to keep fighting for this team, against the obstacles they are now facing. They paid, says Pyeatt, more than the team was worth. They are losing millions a year. They are facing a class action lawsuit from shareholders, and another lawsuit enforcing the lease. Relocation fees would be in the tens of millions.
The people at Save Our Sonics have a lot of angles left to work. Pyeatt outlined some of them. For instance, Pyeatt and others from Save Our Sonics are traveling to New York next week to meet with David Stern, and Pyeatt hopes, Billy Hunter.

They have messages for each. To Stern, they want to recommend that the NBA and its relocation committee not act on Clay Bennett's request until pending litigation has resolved, which could be the better part of a year from now. "If David Stern and the NBA votes to allow relocation, by our understanding of the law, the NBA and its owners who vote for relocation could be named as defendants in the lawsuit to enforce the lease," says Pyeatt. "That would be a big mess. On the other hand, if the NBA sits this one out, then they can wide in wearing their white hats to encourage some kind of compromise deal when this is all over."

If the people from Save Our Sonics can meet with Billy Hunter, they will ask the head of the Players Association to examine the current collective bargaining agreement. "We believe there is a clause stating that if NBA revenues decline, the Players Association can re-open negotiations of the CBA," says Pyeatt. "Believe me, no one wants that. But if you move a team from Seattle to Oklahoma City, guess what, revenues are going to decline."

Pyeatt is also aware of some conditions of the sale from Howard Schultz's group to Clay Bennett's group. Apparently Schultz and his partners could have sold for more money to a group from California, but took less with the condition that the new owners would make a good faith effort to stay. (The terms are expressed, Pyeatt says, in a confidential "side letter" that has not been made public, but may be part of discovery in the upcoming trial.) If Bennett's group does not make a good faith effort to stay, one of the possible remedies, Pyeatt speculates, is that the previous owners may be entitled to buy the team back -- and while Schultz may not be interested, many from that group are.

Pyeatt also suggests that the local government might flirt with using eminent domain to simply claim the team. It's bold and has never made it to a court before. But in cases where it has been threatened, it has prompted negotiations. "No way any sports league wants that case to make it to court," explains Pyeatt. "They might say it's 99% likely they'd win, but once it gets to court, you never know what's going to happen. And if that 1% prevails, no team in any league can ever strongarm a city again."

When you put it all together, though, what is Pyeatt's best guess as to what will happen? He points out that the Mariners and Seahawks were way further down the road to leaving than the Sonics are, but similar forces conspired to keep them in town. He's betting the same thing will happen this time: the NBA will not want to abandon the burgeoning Seattle market, and some kind of compromise will be reached. Perhaps Bennett and company will take the team to Oklahoma and another franchise like the Grizzlies will come to Seattle, or perhaps the Grizzlies or another team will be given to Bennett and company to take to Oklahoma City.

One way or another, he suspects there will be NBA basketball in Seattle for years to come, and Clay Bennett's announcement today did nothing to dissuade him.

Big Red Ron

11/3/2007, 03:16 PM

^^^^^

That's all wishful thinking, at best.

The deadline has passed and Stern is going to allow it.

The End.

SoonerKnight

11/3/2007, 11:49 PM

That's BS. The city has failed to make an attempt at true faith negotiations and therefore will lose this one. either way Bennet will move this team to OKC. OKC proved that an NBA team can make money in OKC. Also if they do come to OKC the rumor is the city will promise to build a new arena with in 2-3 years to make it happen. NBA in OKC will make huge money for the team, state, and the city.

BigRedJed

11/4/2007, 11:25 AM

Guys, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: it's not 100% that the Sonics are going to be here next season, or ever. If the court case drags out and keeps them there even one more season, an arena deal could materialize. Let me make it clear one more time: THE TEAM IS WORTH MORE -- TO THE TUNE OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS MORE TO ITS INVESTORS -- IF THEY PLAY IN A NEW ARENA IN SEATTLE THAN IF THEY PLAY IN ANY ARENA IN OKC.

Now, is team revenue higher in the Ford Center and OKC than it is in Key Arena? You bet your ***. The Key Arena and the lease the Sonics have is HORRIBLE. That's the whole crux of this situation. They're legitimately hemmoraging cash in Key Arena, and need an arena deal to be successful. But the team would make more money and be valuead at around $100 million more than they paid if it played in a state-of-the-art arena.

If they come to OKC, they're worth an estimated $100 million LESS than they paid for it. Not a horrible situation for guys who plan to have a long-term ownership position and keep it in the same city. They would eventually get the $100 million back. But if they had succeeded in their plan in Seattle with a new arena, they could have flipped the team within a few years for a $100 milllion dollar PROFIT. Money that could be used to purchase and bring a team to OKC, either through expansion or relocation of a team that needs to get out of a dead-end situation (Hornets, Grizzlies...)

As dire as the current situation now sounds for Seattle, a new arena deal could emerge before the team relocates. If you think that the owners won't give it a good look, you're fooling yourself. Witness Clay's wistful comments this week about how much they had wanted to make it work in that vibrant Seattle economy. He gained no strategic advantage by saying that at this point. He MEANT it.

You can be damn sure that Stern would rather have a successful team in Seattle than in OKC, if he had to choose. That doesn't mean that the NBA won't grant the request, only that they would prefer the Seattle thing work out.

Do I think Clay & Co mean to move the team here at this point? Absolutely. I think they have given it honest effort and are very frustrated. They're being villified by people who couldn't give a rats *** about the financial well-being of their city's team. They know that OKC will be a good situation for them, but it will be bittersweet. They thought they could get the deal done up there, make a ****load of money, and still eventually help bring a team to their hometown. Best of both worlds.

A deal up there could still happen. Especially if the legal wrangling keeps them there another season or two. Or three.

Big Red Ron

11/4/2007, 11:32 AM

I respect your thoughts Jed but I have very good info that says the Sonics will be here next season. We'll very likely have to agree to a new arena in X years but that'll be easy to do considering we've passed three MAPS projects.

BigRedJed

11/4/2007, 11:35 AM

By the way, do I think the motives of all of the OKC owners are exactly the same? I do not. I think by his comments a few months back that Aubrey McClendon would rather they just come here and dispense with all of the BS.

But this is the same guy that routinely pays far more than a property is worth, if he really, really wants it. He appears to see a lot of things through an overriding greater vision than what it will do financially for him at the moment. Of course, he can afford to to that. He's OPRAH rich. To the tune of multiple billions. Most of his partners are not. They're just filthy rich. Big difference.

A $200 million swing in value for one of their investments would be a huge motivator for them. It's nice to be altruistic, and hometown hero, but don't believe for a moment that most of those partners are going to turn their backs on a $100 million profit, if it can be had.

BigRedJed

11/4/2007, 11:38 AM

Ron, I think you and I probably both have really good information.

And, like I said, do the owners now believe they are going to be here next season? Absolutely. They gave it their best effort, and were completely stonewalled. They now, at this moment, intend to come here. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that a lot can happen between now and then.

tulsaoilerfan

11/4/2007, 12:02 PM

What's the big deal anyway about this? The guy bought the team and he should be able to move it wherever he wants; if Seattle wanted to keep the team so badly why didn't a local person buy them?

BigRedJed

11/4/2007, 12:11 PM

Or, more correctly, if Seattle wanted to keep the team so badly why didn't they agressively help find an arena situation that keeps the team solvent? Nobody is disputing that the team is currently losing tens of millions in Key Arena. I've read every page of the lease deal they have, and like Stern says, it's awful. Why not at the very least offer to renegotiate the lease until an arena deal emerged? Seattle complains about good faith, yet they're the ones who have never exhibited it.

Since David Stern began as Commissioner, ever single team in the NBA has built a new arena. Every single team except two: the Knicks, who completely remade the Garden, which lent itself to modernization very well and already was a great building, and the Sonics. People, Key Arena is a dump. Think of the arena at the Oklahoma state fairgrounds, with a few extensive remodels. Seriously.

Big Red Ron

11/4/2007, 12:45 PM

SEATTLE — On the day he filed to relocate his team to Oklahoma City, Seattle Sonics (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Seattle+SuperSonics&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) chairman Clay Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) shot down any assumptions that he's in cahoots with NBA Commissioner David Stern (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=David+Stern&CATEGORY=PERSON).

Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON), in an interview with The Oklahoman (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=The+Oklahoma+Publishing+Company&CATEGORY=COMPANY) on Friday, said there was no deal to give Oklahoma City an NBA (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=National+Basketball+Association&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) franchise as thanks for how Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) and several members of his Oklahoma-based ownership group lent the displaced New Orleans Hornets (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=New+Orleans+Hornets&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) a helping hand in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
"There's no such agreement in place,” Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) flatly said. "There's support for us as there is support for the other 29 teams. We're all working hard. We all face significant challenges in this dynamic business. And David and the league do the best they can to understand what those challenges are and provide council and support.”
But if you connect the dots of Stern's actions and statements over the past two years, two things are clear: He appreciates Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON), and he's down on Seattle.
Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) has a close relationship with Stern. The NBA (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=National+Basketball+Association&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) commissioner will be in Oklahoma City on Thursday to help induct Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) into the Okahoma Hall (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Okahoma+Hall&CATEGORY=PERSON) of Fame. The two first got to know each other when Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) was tied to the San Antonio Spurs (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=San+Antonio+Spurs&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION). As a top executive with Gaylord Properties in the mid-1990s, Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) was a member of the largest single owner that made up the Spurs ownership group. Gaylord Properties owned a stake in the Spurs for three years, before selling its share to current chairman and CEO Peter Holt (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Peter+Holt&CATEGORY=PERSON).
Stern has often criticized Seattle and showered praise on Oklahoma City — and Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON).
"It's beyond anything we expected or hoped for,” Stern said in late November 2005 about Oklahoma City's support for the Hornets. "The community stepped up big time — elected officials, the corporate sector and fans. In my view, they've moved to the top of the list if an NBA (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=National+Basketball+Association&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) team were ready to move.”
And the Sonics are ready.
After Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) and his group were approved as the Sonics owners, Stern said: "This was a rock-solid ownership group. The (other) owners were delighted that people of such high net worth and reputation were able to make such a substantial investment. This was close to a communal love fest as you're likely to find.”
Although Stern has stepped in as a mediator in the Sacramento Kings (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Sacramento+Kings&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION)' arena battle, he has remained on the sideline in the Sonics' rift.
He has glorified the Kings (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Sacramento+Kings&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION)' presence in Sacramento (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Sacramento+Kings&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) and questioned the commitment for the Sonics in Seattle, going as far as to say "there was no heart whatsoever for assisting a Sonics team.”
"In Sacramento (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Sacramento+Kings&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION) the team is a fixture,” Stern told reporters on a national conference call at the end of October. "Everyone has expressed that they want them to stay. The statements of support on an ongoing basis from the city and the governor have been very good. It's a completely different situation.”
In mid-April, Stern addressed the state of the Sonics by telling The Seattle Post-Intelligencer (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Seattle+Post-Intelligencer&CATEGORY=COMPANY), "We are looking for a miracle, but it doesn't look good.”
During a visit to Seattle in May 2005, Stern also blasted the Sonics' use and occupancy agreement at KeyArena (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=KeyArena&CATEGORY=ATTRACTION), saying, "I don't think there can be any dispute that the Sonics have the least favorable building arrangement in the league.”
"My sense is, and I think we all share it, that it's hard to believe that we can't get a building built here,” Bennett (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Clayton+Bennett&CATEGORY=PERSON) said Friday when asked about his impressions of Stern's feeling on having the Sonics move to Oklahoma City. "Because the market would support it, it would be financially successful, it would be additive to the economic vitality of the region and it would seem to make sense that the public would want to keep the teams here. "But times have changed. They're political realities and they're economic realities, and at the end of the day one has to do what you can to support the investment. And the business cannot survive in Seattle without a new building. And the league understands that and supports that.”

OUmillenium

11/5/2007, 11:20 AM

It's 67%-84% that we get the Sonics.

and 50-50 or 91% chance we don't...according to Dean

BigRedJed

11/5/2007, 06:38 PM

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1026/nba_g_cpaul_412.jpg

BigRedJed

11/5/2007, 06:47 PM

That was from a preseason game, but you get the idea of what the NOLA arena looks like these days. Opening night the attendance was announced at 15,188. A sellout at the New Orleans Arena is 17,956. For the second game, against the Trailblazers, only 9,817 showed up in the 17,956-seat New Orleans Arena, the Hornets' smallest announced crowd there since they moved from Charlotte in 2002.

They rank dead last in attendance (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2008), and I'm guessing that opening-night game skews the results. Look for them to finish up in last place, and I'm guessing around a 10,000 average. Totally unsustainable.

Don't think that the NOLA situation doesn't factor in to Stern's actions. That team is going to have to leave. Maybe after this season. Probably after two. Without question within three.

If the Sonics come here, look for the Hornets to be for sale, and probably move right to Seattle with a new arena deal and possibly the Sonics name. However, if the relocation of the current Sonics franchise gets held up a year or more, there will likely be a push to still work to get an arena deal done in Seattle and allow Clay and Co. to purchase the Hornets and sell their interest in a Seattle team with a new arena.

Sorry for all of you who are certain that the Sonics are here next year, I'm still saying this is a possiblity.

BigRedJed

11/5/2007, 06:55 PM

By the way, for those who still hold on to the notion that OKC did poorly in attendance when the Hornets were here, check out the attendance for year one (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2006) and year two (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?year=2007).

The first year includes aggregate results with the Norman game (good attendance, but a much smaller arena), Baton Rouge game (something like 6,000 if I remember), and poorly attended NOLA games. If all games would have been played in OKC the team would have definitely been a top-ten attendance market (they ended up at 11 even with the ****ty non-OKC games), and probably more like top five or six.

Year two also includes some NOLA games which were poorly attended, plus was played with the understanding that the team was leaving. Despite this, the attendance was still a respectable middle-of-the-pack (15th out of 30). Without question OKC will be a consistent top-half attendance city when a team arrives full time.

SoonerKnight

11/8/2007, 01:52 AM

OKC loves it's sports. If you look at the semi-pro basketball team that OKC has they were sold out on the same nights as the Hornets. OKC not only supported the NBA but consitantly supports it's semi-pro teams on a consistant basis. Maybe Bennet can swap Seattle for the Hornets like you said but I think New Orleans is not worth as much as Seattle and I think a group that calls itself Oklahoma City Professional Basketball Club LLC means to bring a team to OKC. I mean the name says it all. Even though I do not live in OKC anymore I would love to go to an NBA game in my home town. I have been to Key Arena when I was stationed up in Seattle and it is old.

Big Red Ron

11/10/2007, 11:27 AM

StoopTroup

11/11/2007, 05:18 PM

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1026/nba_g_cpaul_412.jpg
I see lots of empty seats.:confused:

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 03:26 PM

Precisely.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 03:36 PM

Interesting article last week in the New York Sun (http://www.nysun.com/article/66888):

Empty Seats Threaten NBA's Future in New Orleans

BY JOHN HOLLINGER
November 23, 2007

At first glance, the New Orleans Hornets seem like a huge success story. After being forced to play in Oklahoma City the past two seasons thanks to the ravages of Hurricane Katrina, the Hornets came back this season and have set the league on fire. Racing out to a 9–4 start despite a difficult early schedule and featuring one of the league's most exciting young players in point guard Chris Paul, the Hornets have the whole town buzzing.

Or rather, they would have the town buzzing … if anyone was coming to the games.

The Hornets have drawn a league-worst 11,092 fans per game this season through six home contests, falling well short of the 19,000 capacity at the New Orleans Arena. On Monday night, facing a showdown against an equally hot Orlando team — both came into the game with 9–2 records — the Hornets could only get a piddling 11,741 to show up. They haven't sold out any games this year, nor have they come close — not even when the world champion Spurs came to town.

Keep in mind that the NBA was a tough sell in the Big Easy even before Katrina hit. Despite the league's lowest ticket prices, the Hornets ranked only 19th in attendance in their first season in the Big Easy, when excitement over a new team was highest and they had a playoff team, and dead last in the second. The latter mark can perhaps be excused — the team went 18–64 and had a fire sale of its best players at mid-season — but nonetheless didn't set a good omen.

Estimates say as much as a third of New Orleans's population relocated in the aftermath of the hurricane, and many of those who stayed have fallen on harder times while they try to rebuild their houses, businesses, and lives. Obviously, that translates into less fans with less money.

Thus, with every successive disappointing attendance figure, the question is raised anew: Why exactly did the league decide to come back here?

The first answer is that the league feels it's the right thing to do: David Stern has talked passionately about the importance of coming back to the city. From that perspective, the NBA made a commitment to the Big Easy when it moved its Charlotte franchise here, and it wants to do the right thing and help the city get back on its feet.

A better answer might be a mix of marketing and politics. Long-term, pretty much everyone understands that this isn't a viable market for the league. But NBA Commissioner David Stern doesn't want to be the bad guy who yanked the Hornets out from under the poor, suffering people of New Orleans — his league has enough black eyes already. Perhaps, from that view, it's better to spend a couple years making it perfectly obvious the city can't support a team and then pulling up stakes.

The politics come in because the Hornets' owner is George Shinn, a man who already had burned his bridges in Charlotte when the city essentially decided not to build a new stadium because they didn't like him (the expansion Bobcats got it instead). The last thing Stern wants is for Shinn to go hopping from market to market burning up viable relocation locales; instead, he'd rather see Shinn try to stick it out in New Orleans, especially since keeping his relocation locale of choice open (Oklahoma City) can be used as a hammer to get other cities to build new arenas on the taxpayers' dime.

Stern backed it up by offering all manner of inducements to New Orleans and, indirectly, Shinn — reportedly leaning on corporate partners to help out the Hornets, awarding the 2008 All-Star Game to the city, and trumpeting the league's return to the city whenever possible.

All this probably looked good on paper when the season started. The theory was that between the state subsidies, a boost from the league, and the excitement over their return, the Hornets would draw enough fans and make enough money to scrape by for a couple years, and the league would get credit for helping contribute to the rebuilding of the city. If and when the team did finally leave, nobody would blame them.

But if the Hornets keep playing to half-full arenas, this simply can't work. And this is with a good team, mind you — could you imagine what would happen if they went 18–64 again?

Who knows, maybe things will pick up. LSU's regular season ends tomorrow and the Saints are falling out of the playoff race, so folks in the Big Easy will need something to occupy their minds for a while. On the other hand, it's not like they're desperate for other options — for instance, the January 25 game against the Clippers competes against five Mardi Gras parades. Good luck with that one.

What we do know is that the attendance situation in New Orleans is even worse than anyone expected, and if it doesn't get any better the league is going to have to revisit its plan for basketball in the city. While the intentions of both Stern and Shinn have been honorable, perhaps its time to wave the white flag and admit that both the team and the city are better served by moving on.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 03:42 PM

And another interesting read today on Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_soshnick&sid=aRss2IFiZleU), showing how badly Stern would like to have Shinn out of the league:

Knicks Boss James Dolan Isn't NBA's Worst Owner: Scott Soshnick

By Scott Soshnick

Nov. 28 (Bloomberg) -- James Dolan slouches in his usual baseline seat, chin tucked to chest, arms folded. His New York Knicks are losing. Again.
The Knicks are a mess. Bad showings on the court. Worse off the court. The prevailing theory around Madison Square Garden is that Dolan is the worst owner in the National Basketball Association.

He's not.

That rather dubious distinction belongs to George Shinn of the New Orleans Hornets.

Hold on, Knicks fans.

Let's start with what fans care about most: the on-court product. The Knicks haven't reached the playoffs since 2004 and haven't advanced to the second round since 2000. Likewise, the Hornets haven't reached the postseason since 2004. They did, however, win one round in 2002.

You can't argue that Dolan, chief executive officer of Cablevision Systems Corp., which owns the Knicks and hockey's Rangers, wants to win. He spends lavishly on players. Smartly, no, but at least he spends.

What about that sex harassment lawsuit, you're thinking.

Last month, a jury said Cablevision and Dolan must pay a former female executive $11.6 million because she was subjected to a hostile work environment. It was front- and back-page fodder for weeks, turning the Knicks into a laughingstock and making Dolan look like an arrogant, or at least out of touch, enabler.

Stern Critique

Remember, though, the primary defendant in the case was Knicks coach Isiah Thomas. Not Dolan.

The trial elicited a harsh critique from NBA Commissioner David Stern, who questioned the smarts of team executives.

"It demonstrates that they're not a model of intelligent management,'' was Stern's take on the Knicks, who are 4-9 this season after consecutive wins. ``There were many checkpoints along the way where more decisive action would have eliminated this issue.''

Fair enough.

Dolan could have, and should have, taken more decisive action, even if it meant firing his coach.

Now let's delve into the past of Shinn, who has owned the Hornets, formerly of Charlotte, North Carolina, (more on that in a minute) since the team's inception in 1988.

A former team employee sued Shinn in 1998, alleging that he lured her to his house and forced her to perform oral sex. Shinn said it was consensual. This from a man whose team administers a pre-game prayer over the public address system.

Skinned Shinn

Although a jury found in favor of Shinn, his private life was plastered across Court TV for weeks. Shinn testified he had two sexual relationships outside his marriage, including one with a Hornets cheerleader. And, during the trial, two other female employees claimed they too had been the targets of Shinn's unwanted sexual advances. A grand jury found there wasn't enough evidence to charge Shinn.

The damage was done. Shinn's testimony soured fans on the team. Charlotte voters rejected a referendum that called for taxpayer money to be used in the construction of a new arena.

It was a barometer of how the public felt about Shinn, not basketball, which is why Charlotte was given another chance with the expansion Bobcats in 2004.

And here's a little tidbit you might not know:

While the Hornets were building their argument for relocation they were, as the Charlotte Observer found, underreporting home attendance figures in violation of NBA rules.

Low Ball

The team made it appear that it had the lowest number of ticket buyers in the league by counting tickets used, and not purchased, as its standard for measuring attendance.

At the time, supporters of the team's proposed move to New Orleans argued that Charlotte hadn't shown support for the team -- often citing the team's abysmal attendance.

In one game against the Washington Wizards, for instance, the Hornets reported attendance of 15,621 to the NBA, about 8,000 short of capacity. The game was, in fact, sold out, though throngs of fans stayed home because an injured Michael Jordan wasn't going to play.

If Stern is angry with Dolan, then the commissioner was downright furious with Shinn.

Anyone positioned outside of the New York hotel ballroom where the league's owners were meeting that day in 2002, as I was, could hear Stern screaming at Shinn for embarrassing the NBA.

And now, in New Orleans, Shinn said he would move the team -- again -- if the state doesn't provide funding for a practice facility that officials agreed to when the Hornets arrived in 2002. State officials say they intend to honor the agreement, which, it's worth noting, was made three years before Hurricane Katrina saddled with city with problems, like, oh, rebuilding homes and schools and hospitals.

Dolan is far from being the best owner. He's just not the worst, either.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 03:46 PM

My only point is that there is a bigger issue (actually a number of them) at work here than just the current desire of OKC owners to move the Sonics here. If you don't think the long-term future of the Hornets factors into the strategies of Stern an the NBA Board of Governors when they consider moving the Sonics to OKC, you're mistaken.

Big Red Ron

11/28/2007, 04:27 PM

Charlotte voters rejected a referendum that called for taxpayer money to be used in the construction of a new arena.

It was a barometer of how the public felt about Shinn, not basketball, which is why Charlotte was given another chance with the expansion Bobcats in 2004.This situation is revealing with regard to how the NBA will deal with OKC. We'll get our team and I would be shocked if Stern rewards Shinn with OKC.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 07:18 PM

I'm not sure if you're reading what I'm writing. I'm not saying that Shinn comes to OKC. I also have never said that Shinn goes to Seattle, in fact I think that is EXCEEDINGLY unlikely. Like I have always said, Stern wants Shinn OUT of the NBA. But, owned by Shinn or not, that team is going to have to move. It's only a matter of when and where.

I have always said that ultimately there will be a team here, and that ultimately it will be owned by the OKC investor group headed by Clay. The X and Y factors are when and which team. If Seattle gets its **** together, which is still a possibility, especially if they keep the team there for another season or two through legal wrangling, the OKC investors stand to make a huge, huge windfall.

At the same time, Stern can wash his hands of Shinn, and relocates the only truly doomed team of the two, moving them to a city where they are guaranteed stability. It's a win-win for the league and for the OKC owners, and eventually for OKC.

Of course, either team is a winning situation for OKC. You might think I'm pulling for one over the other, but I'm really not. I'm only looking at it from a purely business standpoint, and telling you that Stern and the OKC group are crazy if they ignore the scenarios I've outlined. I assure you, neither of them are crazy, and those scenarios have always been, and remain, in play.

We all want a team here. OUR team, whichever that is. We all want them to be here tomorrow. I'm just saying that '08 is no lock at this point, and neither are the Sonics.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 07:25 PM

BTW, Shinn was forced back to NOLA specifically to choke him out. They've known all along that the team couldn't survive down there.

As I posted long, long ago when I started posting these ideas, he was originally offered the option of staying in OKC with an agreement to sell 49% of his team to Clay and Co., and giving them first right of refusal on a controlling interest should he die, become incapacitated or sell the team. The deal had Stern's blessing. He refused, hoping he could stick it out here on his own. That was the source of his feud with Clay, and that's when Clay and the boys started shopping.

That's also when the NBA decided to absolutely send Shinn back.

They could soak up some good publicity, avoid most of the bad PR when it becomes obvious that the team HAS to move, and weed out Shinn in the process.

bluedogok

11/28/2007, 10:55 PM

The team "swap" scenario looks more and more likely (as Jed posted in the other thread), maybe the new group that popped up recently in Seattle "buys" the Sonics, and the Bennett group gets the Hornets to move them back to OKC.

This is similar to the swap that happened in MLB a few years ago involving the Expos/Marlins/Red Sox. In 2001 Marlins owner John Henry buys the Red Sox, Expos owner Jeffrey Loria (former OKC 89'ers owner) buys the Marlins and MLB buy the Expos off of Loria in an attempt to contract them (and the Twins) but moves them to DC instead.

BigRedJed

11/28/2007, 11:42 PM

I've gotta be really clear here, though: I never have suggested a team "swap" as in Shinn gets the Seattle market, or even that he comes here. The league is trying to give Shinn enough rope to hang himself. He has been thrown to the wolves.

I also don't think Clay and co. are in this to sell the Sonics for even what they paid for them, under any circumstances. The new group has already been told, in effect, to **** up a rope. The only way he sells to them is after an arena deal jacks the Sonics value. The OKC group are in that deal for a hoped-for outcome of:

Stabilzation of the Seattle market and a "flip" to new owners for a VERY tidy profit and then purchase of a near-bankrupt Hornets franchise or (less appealingly) an expansion in the next decade, or...
Relocation of the Sonics to OKC.I think those are the only options they have ever been interested in, and I think they (or at least Clay) preferred option 1, if it could be pulled off.

If, and I repeat, IF Shinn were allowed to stay at the table, it would be under the option 1 scenario, and he would be forced to commit to selling controlling interest to the OKC partners when he retires/sells/dies.

However, I think Stern is frankly licking his chops for an opportunity to bankrupt Shinn and leave him outside looking in, altogether.

BigRedJed

11/29/2007, 12:20 AM

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/getty/50/fullj.6877ed4408e424d3583ec99dc0c5bab2/6877ed4408e424d3583ec99dc0c5bab2-getty-76075600lm006_minnesota_tim.jpg

bluedogok

11/29/2007, 11:23 PM

I wasn't even thinking about Shinn being involved, except for getting him self booted out of the NBA. I think the NBA would keep the Sonics in Seattle, broker a "sale" of the Sonics from Bennett to a new ownership group in Seattle, contingent upon approval of a new arena. Bennett gets a nice profit out of that deal, the Shinn Hornets languish in NO and Bennett buys the Hornets at a true market value (for the Hornets) to move them to OKC. Bennett makes money and buys a team cheaper than a larger market team would be and Seattle gets to stay where they are and get a new arena.

I think Shinn is out sometime in the future if Stern has anything to do with it. I could easily see a Stern brokered deal going something like that to get Shinn out of the league.

BigRedJed

12/3/2007, 11:45 AM

The deal you describe is very similar to what I have been suggesting as a possibility.

Civicus_Sooner

12/3/2007, 12:28 PM

BigRedJed

12/3/2007, 12:35 PM

Betting your house at this point would be unwise.

Civicus_Sooner

12/3/2007, 12:37 PM

Betting your house at this point would be unwise.Perhaps I have better information than you.

I'll settle on one of those avatar bets they do around here with ya. I mean on the Sonics to OKC part.

BigRedJed

12/3/2007, 01:04 PM

1. Maybe you do.

2. I don't change my basic avatar. Ever.

Civicus_Sooner

12/3/2007, 01:42 PM

1. Maybe you do.

2. I don't change my basic avatar. Ever.
I'm just playin.

Hopefully we'll all be drinking a beer at an NBA game in OKC soon.

C&CDean

12/3/2007, 10:04 PM

I'm just playin.

Hopefully we'll all be drinking a beer at an NBA game in OKC soon.

I'll drink beer at an NBA game in OKC when we have a team of our own.....for reals. Until then, **** the NBA.

Dio

12/4/2007, 07:54 AM

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/getty/50/fullj.6877ed4408e424d3583ec99dc0c5bab2/6877ed4408e424d3583ec99dc0c5bab2-getty-76075600lm006_minnesota_tim.jpg

Must've been a heckuva ice storm in NOLA that night

BigRedJed

12/4/2007, 12:53 PM

Well, here's what it looks like when the Mavericks come to town (announced attendance of 12,223):

http://www.nba.com/media/cpaul_300_071201.jpg

BigRedJed

12/4/2007, 12:55 PM

All I can say is that arena must have a 35,000 seat capacity if that's 12,000. And yes, I know tickets sold and turnstile count are very, very different.

Civicus_Sooner

12/4/2007, 12:58 PM

Man, It must be depressing to go from "Loud City" to that for the players.

Too bad Shinn is such a loser.

BigRedJed

12/4/2007, 01:09 PM

http://www.dougloudenback.com/hornets/3.31.6.15.jpg

BigRedJed

12/4/2007, 01:10 PM

That's OKC, BTW. Of course, according to NOLA fans, OKC "made up" all of those sellouts.

Civicus_Sooner

12/4/2007, 01:44 PM

I really miss going to the Hornets game!:(

"Clap, clap, clap., clap your hands...":)

BigRedJed

12/5/2007, 05:34 PM

From The Oklahoman a few days ago:

Linky (http://newsok.com/article/keyword/3175904/)

League forms relocation committe for Sonics

From staff reports

SEATTLE — The NBA has formed the relocation committee to oversee the Seattle SuperSonics proposed move to Oklahoma City, but because of continued legal wrangling, any move could be delayed past next season.

The developments, according to reports in the Seattle media, include:

A rejection by Judge Richard Martinez of the Sonics' bid to expedite the case. Martinez said a trial date will be set just like any other case. That pre-trial period must be held before the judge decides when to set a trail date.
A verdict could be appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which would extend the proceedings even longer.The City of Seattle is suing the team over the Sonics' attempt to be freed from its lease. The Sonics, who are owned by a group of Oklahoma City businessmen, are seeking to get out of the lease to Key Arena, which runs through 2009-2010.

Team chairman Clay Bennett filed for relocation on Nov. 2.

The NBA's relocation committee overseeing the proposed move will be led by Miami Heat managing general partner Micky Arison, along with Jerry Buss of the L.A. Lakers, Chris Cohan of the Golden State Warriors, Lewis Katz of the New Jersey Nets, Herb Simon of the Indiana Pacers, Ed Snider of the Philadelphia 76ers and Peter Holt of the San Antonio Spurs.

The NBA Board of Governors will discuss the move at their meeting April 17-18, league spokesman Tim Frank told the Seattle Post-Intellegencer. The NBA must complete its schedule for the 2008-09 in August 2008, so there will have to be some resolution by then.
"Obviously that (timing) is an issue,” Frank told the newspaper. "But we're at least beginning due diligence on reviewing the application.”

BigRedJed

12/5/2007, 05:56 PM

An interesting read from the Seattle PI from before the OKC guys bought the team outlining the economics of NBA arenas:

Linky (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/270255_nbasonics15.html)

The article is too long to post. Click the damn link.

BigRedJed

12/5/2007, 06:02 PM

From a couple of days ago in the Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/stevekelley/2004047446_kelley020.html):

Sonics need a savior: Are you Interested?

By Steve Kelley
Seattle Times staff columnist

An open letter to Microsoft CEO and hoop maven Steve Ballmer:

Dear Mr. Ballmer:

First of all, let me say I've gotten several scouting reports on your game. I know you're one of a cadre of cagers who play predawn games at the Pro Club in Bellevue. Anybody who is setting picks and running fast breaks at 5 in the morning is my kind of person.

"He has a nice little game," one of my scouts said.

"He's a good guy to play with," another said. "Gives the ball up."

We share an unquenchable love for the game. We love to play it and we love to watch guys much better than us turn our game into magic.

Which brings me to the inevitable question regarding our game in our town.

Will you help us? Please.

I don't know if you've been watching the games on ESPN or listening to the commentators on TNT. I don't know if you've seen the NBA shows on cable.

But when they talk about the game in Seattle, almost all of them speak of it in the past tense.

They mention the rich history. They say they're sorry the city that has supported professional basketball for more than 40 years is losing the Sonics, but they make it sound like it's a done deal.

The Sonics belong to Oklahoma City.

I'm sure you've heard commissioner David Stern's propaganda. Over and over again he has criticized Seattle. Said it doesn't want the Sonics. He's mentioned talks he's had with state legislators, but let's be real here. There have been no negotiations.

And now Sonics boss Clay Bennett has started the Doomsday Clock, filing for relocation. It seems only ESPN's Hubie Brown, who might be one of the best educators on television, is the only one getting it right. During the Sonics' recent loss to New Jersey, he reminded viewers that the near future of the franchise will be decided in the courts.

If the courts rule the Sonics must be held to their KeyArena lease agreement, the team will be here at least through the 2009-10 season.
And, at the very least, we'll be able to watch rookies Kevin Durant and Jeff Green and future point guard Derrick Rose (just guessing) grow up in this town.

But right now, the overwhelming national perception is that the Sonics are gone. I heard it over the Thanksgiving holiday when I was in New York watching the train wreck that is Knicks basketball.

When people found out I was from Seattle, they all said the same basic thing. "Sorry you guys are losing your basketball team. You deserve better than that."

So I guess this is where you come in.

I believe the Sonics' move to Oklahoma City is a long way from being a done deal. A long way.

I know that, from Olympia to the Seattle City Council, bubbling under the surface, there are movers and shakers, trying to put together an arena deal that works, whether it's a remodeled Key or something new at the Seattle Center or elsewhere.

Hoop lovers with deep pockets and/or friends in the NBA hierarchy are meeting and texting and talking on their phones, trying to figure out ways to save the Sonics.

I don't know if you have attended any games this season, but the fan reaction inside KeyArena has been remarkable. I wish Stern could take in a few games.

I mean here's a young team that will be lucky to win 25 games. A team that is 3-14 and lost its first seven home games before winning its first on Friday. But in the fourth quarter of close games — and almost every home game has been close — these fans, who have been orphaned by the league, are on their feet.

They're cheering this team as if they can see into the future. They chant "Save Our Sonics" every night. They haven't given up.

But I think they need someone with your clout to give them hope. I know the national pundits need someone with your clout just to say, "Not so fast. We ain't done yet."

It's easy for someone with no money like me to tell someone like you how to spend your money. It's presumptuous as well.

This city's legion of basketball fans, however, needs a hero besides Kevin Durant. It needs you to say, "I love the game as much as you guys do and I'm here to help."

I know there is a lot of work left to do. But I'm tired of Stern bad-mouthing this city, even if it is just a negotiating trick. And I think Stern and the rest of the basketball-loving nation need to know the real story.

Basketball isn't dead yet in Seattle. The Seattle Sonics have a pulse. You, Mr. Ballmer, and other ardent gamers like you, must fight for this team.
Seattle needs someone with muscle to go public. Someone like you, who, according to my scouts, knows how the game is played.

Will you help? Please.

BigRedJed

12/5/2007, 06:10 PM

And from today, in The Olympian (http://www.theolympian.com/sports/story/290728.html):

Senator: 'It's a shame' to lose Sonics

By Eric D. Williams

SEATTLE - The effort to keep the Seattle SuperSonics in Puget Sound is on life support, according to state Sen. Margarita Prentice (D-Renton), chairwoman of the Senate Ways and Means committee.

"They are about as close to (being gone) as I have experienced," Prentice said. "It's a shame. A lot of people are going to be disappointed. It's a disgrace to lose a team for no good reason."

And Prentice doesn't mince words when asked who's to blame for the NBA franchise's imminent departure from the Emerald City - pointing a finger at the City of Seattle.

"Seattle has painted itself in a corner because it's impossible now," Prentice said. "They are desperate, trying to figure out a way to make it work, and it doesn't work.

"Too may people have engaged in wishful thinking, hoping that the fairy godmother is going to arrive, and there's no such person out there."

The comments were the Renton senator's harshest since Sonics chairman Clay Bennett and his Oklahoma City-based ownership group purchased the team in July 2006. Prentice said Seattle city officials, along with the powers-that-be in Olympia, worked to kill an effort proposed by Bennett's group during last year's legislative session to build a new arena for the Sonics within her district in Renton.

"I know for a fact that he wanted to stay," Prentice said about Bennett. "He spent a lot of time and money trying to make it work here.

"And the real tragedy is we had the votes in both houses."

Looking ahead to the 60-day 2008 session of the Legislature that begins Jan. 14, Prentice said chances are slim for a new arena proposal to develop. Prentice appears to have an ally in the house in state Rep. Eric Pettigrew (D-Seattle), who backed the proposal for an arena in Renton.

"It's a dead duck as far as I know," Pettigrew said. "I haven't heard any whispers or anything. But as a business supporter and someone who has always been a fan of the Sonics and Storm I would be supportive if someone is willing to step up and come up with a creative way to make it work."

Seattle deputy mayor Tim Ceis has said the city will introduce a revamped KeyArena proposal in the near future. It will include a price tag considerably less than the $500 million Bennett's ownership group has asked for in a new arena. But Ceis has not given a specific date when that proposal will be released. Ceis didn't return phone calls to The News Tribune on Monday.

"(Bennett) has made it very clear. KeyArena will not work," Prentice said. "I spoke to him today. I had called just to see if there was any room for him and the city to talk, and he won't discuss anything that includes KeyArena."

When asked if the Sonics would support a new arena proposal in the Legislature, Dan Mahoney, a spokesman for Bennett, declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the NBA has created a relocation committee to review the Sonics ownership group's application to move to Oklahoma City. Bennett's group filed for relocation on Nov. 2. According to NBA by-laws, the committee has 120 days to make a recommendation to the full board of governors. NBA spokesperson Tim Frank said the issue is scheduled for discussion April 17-18 during semiannual meetings in New York.

The process is in its early stages, Frank said, adding that the relocation committee has not scheduled a time and place for its first meeting.

"Obviously they will review the proposal and do their due diligence on the other aspects of the proposal, and then make a recommendation to the board," Frank said.

BigRedJed

12/6/2007, 02:06 PM

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22122322/):

Expert: A fine team wasted in New Orleans

City’s residents need real help, not the Hornets, All-Star game, and NBA

ASK THE NBA EXPERT
By Sam Smith
updated 2:37 a.m. CT, Thurs., Dec. 6, 2007

Everyone knows what it's like to come home from a long vacation or business trip, perhaps a hospital stay or sabbatical. Friends and neighbors, family is there to greet you. Perhaps there's a welcome home party and additional attention about where you were and how wonderful it is to have you back. After awhile that diminishes as everyone goes back to their normal life and you are left there to manage yours.

And so it is with the New Orleans Hornets.

They returned home after two years playing in Oklahoma City because of the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, and despite it being one of America's great party cities — if they do anything else I am not quite aware of it — there was no party and little welcome back.

In what should be the best of times, the Hornets are last in the NBA in attendance with an official average of barely above 11,000, which in itself is inflated because the NBA counts tickets sold. Vast sections of the lower bowl remain empty for most Hornets' home games and attendance counts of 8,000 have not been infrequent. A recent game against Minnesota drew 8,393, more reminiscent of NBA totals from the 1970's, and that wasn't even the lowest for the season. Barely 10,000 (and fewer in the building) were there Wednesday night for a good Pistons team.

So what's supposed to happen after the thrill of their return wears off?

If a basketball swishes through a basket and no one is there to hear it, does it count?

That's what perhaps is most unfortunate in all this since this Hornets team, supported well in Oklahoma City despite injuries that took it out of playoff contention, is a very good team with a superstar defensive player, as coach Byron Scott says, in center Tyson Chandler, an All-Star guard in Chris Paul, a former All-Star returning to form in Peja Stojakovic and solid young pros like David West, who averages close to 20 points per game.

It's no surprise, really, going into this week the Hornets were 4-5 at home and 8-2 on the road, the latter figure second best in the NBA. The general formula in the NBA for 50 wins is to play .500 ball on the road and then win three of four at home, which good teams do. The NBA has the biggest home field/court advantage in team sports. There are various theories, though one reason is momentum and fan enthusiasm play a bigger role in basketball than football or baseball because of the game played indoors in smaller venues. In the up-and-down nature of the NBA, where four- and five-game weeks are not uncommon, that boost from a loud home crowd can carry a team through periods of fatigue. And perhaps influence an official's call or two.

It doesn't look like this will happen for the Hornets, who deserve better.

Team officials say it takes time to create fan momentum and for citizens to fully realize the team is back to stay. Or does it?

The general consensus around the NBA is the return experiment will fail and the Hornets will be bound for Oklahoma City or Seattle before long, perhaps a swap of franchises with the unhappy new Supersonics owner, who is petitioning to leave.

It seems inevitable, and probably the sooner the better for the basketball fate of the Hornets.

The NBA has this charity program called NBA Cares. It features players doing various forms of charity work, though at times it seems disingenuous as player contracts require a certain number of such appearances every season.

Truly, the program should be David Cares.

NBA commissioner David Stern does care.

It's the main reason the Hornets are back in New Orleans. He wants to play a role in the redevelopment of the city, and NBA players have been generous in their help for New Orleans and the Gulf Coast states without prompting. But it's Stern with the slam dunk social conscience.

There would be no WNBA if not for Stern. He wants to find a place for women in basketball. He introduced women officials to the NBA. He's taken the NBA all over the world. NBA summer programs in Africa have raised millions of dollars for needy people. But this desire to help New Orleans with the NBA All-Star game there in February as well is misguided.

It most hurts the Hornets.

To be fair, it's not close to the same city and never truly was a basketball city.

New Orleans lost the Jazz to Salt Lake City after only five seasons in New Orleans in the late 1970's. And that was with Pete Maravich, who was the ultimate jazzman of basketball.

When the Hornets first arrived, attendance never got out of the bottom of the league. In its final season in New Orleans before the storm, the Hornets averaged 14,221, which was the lowest attendance in the NBA. Their percentage of capacity at the limited New Orleans Arena was barely better, fourth from the bottom, according to figures from the NBA Guide.

It's not a very large city, and now perhaps half of that. There are various estimates of about 465,000 residents before the storm and 265,000 now.

"We're optimistic but we're not Pollyanna-ish," Stern said in his annual preseason state of the league conference. "It's yet to be proven, (but) we want to be a part of proving it and be a part of New Orleans' revitalization. New Orleans used to be 400, it's only 200 (thousand). That may be the true, but that's not the base against which the Hornets draw. It's not just the city proper but from a broader array of parishes, wards, you name it. So there's some optimism on our part that this team can be supported by the business community, which is making large infrastructure investments, and is hiring more people and the like. Those people will be watching the team on television and attending their games. The businesses will view sports as an opportunity to demonstrate on an ongoing basis the vitality of the community."

Or perhaps not.

Look, the NBA is an expensive, eclectic buy. It's difficult for fans in much larger cities to pay the average ticket price of more than $50, usually close to $100 for the lower stands area. A team's fortunes turn, and attendance falls with Indiana Pacers, long successful, now among the lowest in attendance, just ahead of Philadelphia. Sure, the Hornets are a good team, but there's not a major corporate base in New Orleans to buy the tickets and a decimated economic base. Those people need help. They don't really need more expensive leisure time activities.

One insider said Hornets season ticket sales were about $12 million, a fourth or a fifth of most teams. It seems almost impossible they can compete economically in the long run.

But there is a conspiracy side to all this, as there always is in the NBA.

That's really why we also love this game.

There's a school of thought that the NBA is so sick and tired of Hornets owner George Shinn that they'll make him cry uncle in New Orleans to get him to sell the team.

Shinn moved the Hornets from Charlotte, where they were a regional success story and a perennial NBA attendance leader. But he became so despised by the community, there was a virtual boycott of the team that led to the move. The NBA since returned a team to Charlotte, which would accept one only without Shinn.

Shinn was involved in a highly-publicized sexual assault complaint, which a jury eventually rejected after a televised trial filled with salacious testimony and at the very least Shinn's admission of an affair with the woman. Shortly after the trial ended, the woman's husband committed suicide. Shinn went on to feud with the business community over attempts to bring in an NFL franchise and added outside partners that further alienated locals. He then made a major show of threatening to move the team and pitting bidding cities against one another before taking a sweetheart deal from New Orleans. Shinn has long been an embarrassment to the NBA as well for that behavior and erratic management of his team.

So the thinking in some quarters is the league forced Shinn back to New Orleans so he'll sell and then they can move the team and fill the deserving Oklahoma City market and perhaps work out something with Seattle for an arena with a local ownership group.

It's all highly speculative stuff, of course, but it's difficult to see how New Orleans is going to be able to support an NBA team at such a time of despair and rebuilding. It's going to make it that much more difficult for one of the better and more interesting young teams in the NBA.

GrapevineSooner

12/6/2007, 02:50 PM

So obvious, even Sam Smith recognizes what's going on. ;)

BigRedJed

12/18/2007, 05:50 PM

From the Sacremento Bee (http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/570922.html), a couple of days ago:

NBA Beat: Hornets' homecoming a hard sell in 'Big Easy'

By Scott Howard-Cooper

What if they held a season and nobody came? Twelve home games into the return, the Hornets are waiting for the embrace to match the results as the NBA's most unusual situation plays out in the hollow of New Orleans Arena.

They're last in the league in attendance and by a lot, at 11,276 entering Saturday against the Suns, an attractive visitor that ordinarily would bring hope of a big crowd. Except that the Hornets recently drew 12,223 for the Mavericks and 15,297 for the Spurs in a building that holds 17,956. Besides, those are the announced gates, including giveaways, and not the actual turnstile count for an owner, George Shinn, with a history of finessing attendance figures.

Not merely posting gaunt numbers in the moment, New Orleans of the first quarter-season is projecting to the smallest attendance in the league since the Charlotte Hornets of 2001-02 as a lame duck in the final season before the relocation to Louisiana. The current team just drew 10,386 for the Grizzlies and 10,773 for the SuperSonics, though, so another couple dozen visits by the dregs could have people really reaching back in time.

The next-lowest gate entering Friday was Philadelphia at 12,224. Memphis was No. 30 last season, and even that was at 14,655. No one has finished at fewer than 14,000 since Atlanta in 2003-04 and fewer than 12,000 since Cleveland in 2002-03, the season before LeBron James arrived and turned the lights back on.

The return from Oklahoma City to the post-Katrina Gulf Coast figured to be challenge enough for the marketing and sales side in the best of times on the court for the Hornets. Problem is, they got the best of times, and the team still plays in an echo chamber.

The Hornets opened with a 14-9 record and in third place in the ultra-competitive Southwest Division, behind San Antonio and Dallas and ahead of Houston. They were playing with energy, a team winning with defense, and had the exciting Chris Paul at point guard and Tyson Chandler inside. Off the court, the NBA launched a plan that would dedicate time and resources to help repair the city.

"Whether, in fact, the city will ultimately support at the corporate level and fan level a team that's young, exciting and has an increasing payroll remains to be seen," Commissioner David Stern said in the days before the regular season began. "But the Hornets certainly have an organization that seems to be up for it. They've hired up, they've moved back, and they've embraced the community."

That no one is to blame – a devastating hurricane hit, people left town, those who stayed or came back need money to rebuild their life and not basketball – does not change the reality that this might be the unfortunate new level of fan support in the Big Easy. At some point, though not this season, it becomes an issue for the entire league to confront.

BigRedJed

12/18/2007, 06:01 PM

From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/343359_arena13.html) a few days ago:

Drawing up a play to save Sonics
Fans on sidelines as city, Bennett square off

Thursday, December 13, 2007
Last updated 12:12 a.m. PT

By GREG JOHNS
P-I REPORTER

On one side of the canyon you've got Sonics Chairman Clay Bennett, digging in his heels and demanding a shiny new arena or else. On the other stand the city of Seattle and its lawyers, vowing to bind Bennett to KeyArena and perhaps even tie up the case in court until the team's lease expires in 2010.

Clinging to the tightrope in between are Sonics fans, including two named Steve Ballmer and John Stanton, who happen to have the financial wherewithal to buy the team should Bennett ever decide to let go.

How all this plays out will be contentious and costly for everyone involved unless the sides narrow the void between them in the coming months.

"It's hard to imagine a worse scenario for trying to find a solution than we have today, given the acrimony," said King County Councilman Pete von Reichbauer, who brokered the equally dysfunctional 1996 sale of the Seahawks from Ken Behring to Paul Allen.

This is a high-stakes chess match with many moves still to play, but some pieces are quietly being shifted behind the scenes.

For Bennett, the threat of relocation to Oklahoma City is his king. With it, he figures to get a multipurpose facility in Seattle or an open avenue to take the NBA team to his hometown.

The city's hope is to box the Oklahoma ownership group into two more seasons in Seattle through the court system, put further financial burden on an already overextended investment, trot out an extensive remodeling project for KeyArena that would convince the NBA it ought to remain in Seattle, and then force Bennett to sell to local owners such as Ballmer and Stanton.

Ballmer is chief executive officer of Microsoft, one of the world's wealthiest men with a $15 billion portfolio and a frequent attendee of Sonics games. Stanton made his money in the cell phone and wireless world, was a 20 percent owner in the previous Sonics ownership group and was among those who opposed Howard Schultz's 2006 sale of the team to Bennett. Neither responded to messages left this week.

One large problem for the city: There will be no local white-knight buyer of the Sonics unless Bennett chooses to sell. Which, to date, he's steadfastly denied interest in doing.

Additionally, the Oklahoma businessman consistently contends he's not interested in a KeyArena remodel. But fixing KeyArena is the only solution city leaders have to offer, given their political attachment to a facility that will soon sit outmoded whether the Sonics stay or go.

All of this could be posturing, of course. Once the city proposes a total overhaul of KeyArena, some close to the situation feel Bennett will be obliged by the NBA to make that work rather than have the league abandon Seattle's significant market.

Similarly, some believe Bennett and his partners would consider selling if faced with the certainty of two more seasons of declining attendance and huge financial losses with no chance of escape until the 2010-11 season.

Lining up their ducks has been difficult for the city, however. Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis has said a new KeyArena proposal is in the offing, but that announcement has been delayed and Ceis didn't return calls this week.

"They don't intend to release the arena proposal until they have a (potential) local owner lined up as part of the package," said one source familiar with the city's process. "Steve Ballmer is the guy everybody wants. And in a perfect world, Stanton would be on board, too."

Sen. Margarita Prentice, chairwoman of the state Senate Ways and Means Committee, has kept in touch with Bennett since attempting to champion his proposed $500 million Renton arena in the Legislature last spring. She recently tried to facilitate a get-together between Bennett and prominent players from Seattle and the state level, but Bennett declined when told the topic would revolve around KeyArena.

"It sounded like there was no wiggle room," Prentice said. "Everybody is doing wishful thinking. Seattle slammed the door on Schultz and it's pretty much stayed there. Now at the last minute, when they realize the team is going and a lot of fans are unhappy, the attitude is, 'Oh, we really didn't mean all that.'

"With all the negative stuff emanating from Seattle, it's just not going to happen. I don't see any way. And I'm the one who has been holding out hope the longest.

"I told Clay Bennett that everyone loses in this scenario and he said, 'Just for two more years.' He's ready to withstand that."

Von Reichbauer might be one politician capable of staying in a neutral position. He maneuvered through similar waters when Behring tried moving the Seahawks to Los Angeles in 1996, eventually bringing Allen into the mix after Behring privately said he would sell rather than shift the franchise.

"People beat me up for talking to Behring, but if you want to get into the car, you have to go to the person with the keys," said von Reichbauer. "It's the same with Clay Bennett. It doesn't help for everybody to continue demonizing him when he's the most critical person to a solution.

"Look, I gain no points for defending Bennett. But I would point out there wasn't a long line of local owners at the will-call window when the team was put up for sale."

In fact, the line consisted of Bennett's group and Oracle software mogul Larry Ellison and some investors who wanted to move the franchise to San Jose.

Von Reichbauer spent time with Bennett at a recent Sonics game and is an old acquaintance of Stanton, who remains a minority owner with the Mariners. He said Bennett has "clearly been bruised" by his experience in Seattle, but that people should remain open to the Oklahoman's potential to keep the team in Seattle in the right circumstances.

Von Reichbauer notes that even if the team somehow winds up with local owners, the end game remains the same. Nobody is going to keep the Sonics in Seattle without a more viable arena, just as Allen didn't buy the Seahawks until voters approved funding for a new stadium.

"(Stanton and Ballmer) may be local, but they still have the same desire as Allen of having a facility in place," said von Reichbauer. "The advantages they bring is their extraordinary connections to this community.

"Both have young children and take their kids to games and are big fans. That's another big positive. Had things gone differently, in a different time frame, both might have been more involved already."

Yet here we sit, with Bennett and the city tied up in the legal system. U.S. District Judge Ricardo Martinez recently gave a Jan. 16 deadline for the sides to meet and outline the discovery period process. It's a procedural step that kicks off what figures to be months of exchanges before a trial date is set.

Barring a settlement, it's conceivable any eventual judgment could be appealed to the 9th Circuit Court in San Francisco, setting off another year-or-longer legal process that could drag on through the end of the KeyArena lease on Sept. 30, 2010.

Meanwhile, KeyArena attendance has declined in the first six weeks of this season to 13,777 per game, 24th among the NBA's 30 teams through 11 home dates. The Sonics averaged 15,955 fans last year; 15,491 in the first 11 games. Brian Robinson, organizer of the Save Our Sonics fan group, noted the team is offering discounts in an attempt to fill seats.

In Orlando, architects unveiled plans this week for a $480 million multipurpose arena that will replace that city's 18-year-old basketball facility. The drawings by HOK Sports, the same group Bennett hired for his Renton proposal, look similar to what had been hoped for here if the Legislature had approved a funding plan.

Part of the problem with Bennett's stance is he never firmly committed to how much his group would kick in. The Orlando ownership group has agreed to pay $50 million in cash up front, $2 million as part of the land acquisition and $25 million in future lease payments, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

The remaining money will come from bonds to be paid off by a tourist tax on hotel guests.

The deal seems close to what Bennett wanted in Seattle.

"I know his dream was to have the kind of arena that could hold national conventions and major events," Prentice said. "I'm convinced with all the time and energy and people he hired, he wanted to make that work here because it is a good location. He wanted what he wanted. Instead, we're going to end up with an empty KeyArena."

But von Reichbauer holds out hope.

"Things change," he said. "Anything could happen in the next months or years, depending on the court case. I think Clay will always say this (new arena or bust) is his deal. But it's still a fluid situation. The court case will become a major milestone and pivotal moment to see if time is part of the solution. Then it's up to the city and Clay's reaction to their decision.

"If the city sees an opportunity to review their options and Clay looks at that as an opportunity to look at what that means to their long-term process, maybe something can happen."

It feels like a long shot at the moment and even the biggest believers are starting to feel their optimism wane. Prentice said nothing has come up in terms of a proposal for the legislative session that opens in a month in Olympia.

"I just feel an obligation to tell the truth," she said. "I'm not going to spin it. I'm not going to pretend there's anything left."

Which seemingly leaves Sonics fans' hopes with the court system, the city of Seattle and any movers willing to step up in case Bennett changes his mind.

"There are a couple groups out there working on solutions, some private, some mixed public-private," said von Reichbauer. "I think there really is an emotional feeling out there to save the Storm and Sonics. We just haven't figured out which door to open yet."

JOHN STANTON
NET WORTH: $1.1 billion
BACKGROUND: Stanton, 52, got rich while helping create the wireless industry and then jumped into venture capital with Trilogy Equity Partners in 2006. He had a 20 percent stake in the Sonics ownership group headed by Howard Schultz and has a minority stake in the Mariners.

STEVE BALLMER
NET WORTH: $15 billion
BACKGROUND: Microsoft's chief executive since 2000, Ballmer, 51, has immense personal wealth and a great affinity for basketball, as a recreational player and Sonics fan. An ex-manager of Harvard's football team, he has yet to take a stake in a pro sports franchise.

Civicus_Sooner

12/19/2007, 05:30 PM

BarryBnds

12/19/2007, 07:43 PM

BigRedJed

12/20/2007, 09:33 AM

Does anyone else feel like everyone is using OKC??? Shinn has NO over a barrel because he would move here unless NO complies with everything he wants. Seattle is being forced to comply or the team will move to OKC? Just kind of feels like in the end we could end up with nothing and just be a pawn in the situation.
Incorrect. Shinn does NOT have NOLA over a barrel. Shinn can't just up and leave without permission from the NBA Board of Governors, and David Stern, who are trying to choke him out of the league. The chances of him getting another chance at the OKC market are extremely remote.

As for the Seattle situation, of course the (Oklahoma City-based) owners of that team are using their hometown as a hammer. But they're doing so as part of a longterm strategy to bring a team to OKC. Oklahoma City will not be left out in the cold, but everyone who think's it's a 100% possibility that a team will be here in '08-'09 is setting themselves up for a huge disappointment.

BigRedJed

12/20/2007, 09:43 AM

The folks in Seatle seem to put too much stock in the "We'll drag it out in court for at least two years." argument.

If the court rules in favor of Bennett, he can move the team. Point being, just because they will appeal it doesn't mean the Sonics have to sit in Seatle while that process drags out.
You're right. IF the court rules in favor of Bennett. But IF they do not do so in the first go-'round, the chances of the Sonics ever coming here diminish significantly.

At this point, the general public and even some people who should know better are treating that big "if" as a foregone conclusion.

Bourbon St Sooner

12/20/2007, 10:07 AM

I always thought it was a mistake to move the Hornets back to NOLA. This town is a Saints town and its really questionable whether the town can support them with the erroding corporate base that Katrina only hastened. It's the do gooder Stern that wanted them here and they'll continue to languish with subpar crowds.

BigRedJed

12/20/2007, 10:15 AM

Maybe he's the do-gooder Stern, or maybe he's the nefarious schemer Stern, looking to drive a bad owner out of the NBA and make the league impervious to public criticism over abandoning NOLA ("well, at least we tried... *shrug*"). Or, maybe he's both.

BigRedJed

12/20/2007, 02:51 PM

In case you missed it in the SO or elsewhere:

City announces plans to call for NBA election

Initiative will improve Ford Center and construct
NBA training facility; timing dictated by scheduled NBA consideration of relocation application to Oklahoma City

Mayor Mick Cornett today announced plans by the City to call for a citywide election to provide funding for capital improvements to the Ford Center and for construction of an NBA training facility. The City will call for the election January 2, 2008, for the election to be held March 4, 2008.

Passage will demonstrate Oklahoma City’s long-term commitment to the NBA, and will occur prior to the NBA’s vote on a relocation application to Oklahoma City in April, 2008. Additionally, the Ford Center improvements are intended to increase the enjoyment of the facility for all users at all events.

“I think we as a community have reached a consensus that our experience with the NBA was a success and we’d like to pursue it further,” said Mayor Cornett. “This commitment to making a capital investment in our own facilities is a necessary ingredient to receiving the best possible consideration by the NBA.”

The March 4th vote will be to approve a temporary one-penny sales tax to commence the day after the temporary MAPS for Kids sales tax elapses. Details concerning the exact length of the tax are still evolving, but will be resolved by the time of the January 2, 2008 Council meeting. Preliminarily, the tax is expected to last between 12 and 15 months.

All enhancements will be owned by the City. The improvements would help attract any NBA team and are not specific to a particular franchise. The timing of the election is driven by the scheduled consideration of the SuperSonics application to the NBA for relocation to Oklahoma City.

###

NBA Vote Fact Sheet

● On December 11, 2007, the City Council approved a consulting contract with the Benham Companies to evaluate what necessary improvements must be made to the Ford Center to accommodate a permanent NBA franchise, and what those improvements and construction of a training facility would cost. Initial findings of that study regarding cost and a basic outline of the improvements are expected to be complete before the January 2, 2008 City Council meeting.

● One year of a one-penny sales tax in Oklahoma City currently raises approximately $97 million.

● The temporary citywide sales tax would be collected starting January 1, 2009, the day after the elapse of the temporary MAP for Kids one-penny sales tax.

● The City expects to call for an election at their regularly-scheduled January 2, 2008 meeting. January 3, 2008 is the final day the election could be called, in order to be held on March 4, 2008, in time for the NBA’s consideration in April of the relocation application.

Oklahoma City and Major League Sports Timeline

1993 – The citizens of Oklahoma City approve the Metropolitan Area
Projects (MAPS) initiative, which includes a sports arena intended to lure a major league sports team to Oklahoma City.

1997 – After serious community efforts, Oklahoma City is not awarded a National Hockey League (NHL) expansion franchise.

1998 – The citizens of Oklahoma City approve an extension of the MAPS sales tax, thus ensuring that the sports arena would be built.

2002 – The Ford Center opens.

2004 – Mick Cornett is elected Mayor, and begins meeting on a regular basis with National Basketball Association (NBA) Commissioner David Stern to pitch Oklahoma City as a major league market.

2005 - 2007 – The New Orleans Hornets of the NBA become the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets for two years, following the devastation by Hurricane Katrina. The relocation results in an estimated $66 million in economic impact the first season. In that first season, the games in Oklahoma City average 18,737 fans, good for 9th in the NBA. Just over one month into the first season, Commissioner David Stern says that Oklahoma City is now at the top of the list for any future expansions or relocations.

November 2, 2007 – The SuperSonics franchise announces its intention to file for relocation to Oklahoma City.

January 2, 2008 – The City is expected to call for a March 4, 2008 election to commit funding for capital improvements necessary to help secure NBA approval of any relocation request.

March 4, 2008 – The election is expected to be held.

April, 2008 – The NBA Board of Governors is expected to consider the SuperSonics relocation request.

Jeopardude

12/20/2007, 04:12 PM

Thanks, BigRed Jed, for all the updates.

BigRedJed

12/21/2007, 09:23 AM

You're welcome.

From yesterday's Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/21/tomasson-fans-in-big-easy-hard-to-find/):

TOMASSON: Fans in Big Easy hard to find

By Chris Tomasson
Friday, December 21, 2007

Doug Moe knew it 40 years ago. One wonders why the NBA can't seem to figure it out.

The Nuggets assistant played in 1967-68 for the New Orleans Buccaneers of the ABA. The Buccaneers ended up moving after three seasons in which they failed to average even 3,000 fans a game.

"It's not a basketball city," Moe said. "It's just as simple as that."

For some reason, though, the NBA keeps returning to this hoops hovel.

The New Orleans Jazz was in business from 1974 to 1979. The Jazz never averaged more than 13,000 fans and twice was under 9,000 in five seasons before bolting to Utah.

The NBA returned with the Hornets in 2002-03. By 2004-05, they were last in the league in attendance.

Then Hurricane Katrina hit, and the Hornets headed to Oklahoma City, where they played the great majority of their games the past two seasons. Big crowds cheered them on, Portland coach Nate McMillan calling it a "college atmosphere."

But the Hornets staggered back to the Crescent City this season. What has happened is what everybody expected would.

The Hornets again are last in the NBA in attendance, and it's much worse. They're averaging a paltry 11,478, down from the 2004-05 last-place mark of 14,221.

With some of the crowds that have showed up this season, a large herd of giraffes could stretch out and bother no one. The Hornets drew 8,302 against Philadelphia, 8,393 for Minnesota and 9,817 when McMillan's Trail Blazers visited Nov. 2.

"It definitely works against the home team," said McMillan, understanding why New Orleans has a better mark on the road (9-5) than at home (7-5). "The opponents come in there and see the building empty. They feel like it's a neutral place to play. The fans, the crowd is not really a part of it."

It would be one thing if the Hornets were bottom feeders. But their 16-10 mark makes them one of the NBA's biggest surprises, and still nobody shows up.

"It's been a little frustrating," Hornets guard Jannero Pargo said. "We feel like we're playing exciting basketball. We've been winning games, and we just wish we could get a little more support from our hometown fans."
It's not as if the nonsupport has been a surprise. New Orleans was a bad market to begin with, and owner George Shinn ran there only after alienating much of Charlotte, where his Hornets drew a meager 11,286 fans in their final season of 2001-02.

Look on the bright side. If the Hornets continue at their current pace, they will have only the second-worst attendance the NBA has seen this decade.

Shinn got a reprieve when crowds well over 18,000 regularly showed up in Oklahoma City. Give him some credit for not turning his back on hurricane-ravaged New Orleans, but he couldn't have thought it was anything remotely resembling a prudent business decision.

"We understand people don't have the means to be there every single night," said forward David West, the only player remaining from the pre-hurricane Hornets. "Everywhere we go, every team we play, somebody asks us, 'How do you guys feel about the fact you got 7,000 or whatever on that particular night?' "

Actually, it hasn't gotten that bad. But when downtrodden Minnesota stumbles in Saturday, perhaps the attendance will be 7,000.

An NBA executive recently was asked how many years the Hornets will remain in New Orleans. He held up two fingers, and it wasn't the sign for victory.