Because we all love it when hypocrits get busted...

[Okla-homey]

I heard an interesting tale yesterday. It seems the outgoing Okla. state "commander" (or whatever they call him) of the American Legion was recommended to be on some state veterans affairs advisory committee by our boy governor.

Apparently, this is a bunch of guys who advise the gov. on veterans affairs and whatnot. It's prestigous and they get invited to lots of cool stuff.

Anyhoo, here's the sucky party. As many know, one of the cool things the American Legion does is run Boys and Girls State. The guy who ran Boys State for them for years (salaried gig) just happened to be a serving OANG guy who deployed to Asscrackistan for over a year. While he was gone, the above mentioned Okla. American legion poo-bah replaced him with some crony of his.

Here's the cool part. last week, when this guy went up for Okla. senate confirmation to the committee, a certain state senator who had gotten wind of this asked the guy in committee, "so, how do feel about holding guardsmen's jobs while they're deployed?" To which, said poo-bah did a lot of harumphing, then affirmed he's 100% in favor of that, and if confirmed, he'd make sure no Okla. employer gives a deployed guardsman the heave-ho while he's deployed.

Then, this senator dropped the hammer. He asked the outgoing American Legion poo-bah, "well sir, what about Capt. <blank>? Didn't you replace him as head of the Legion's Boys State program while he was deployed?"

Poo-bah squirmed and began to hedge. The ginormous a-hole even stated, "well, our legal dept. checked and because we are a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation, the federal and state policies against firing deployed guardsmen don't apply to the American Legion.":eek: Remember, this is a veterans rights organization that purportedly exists to look-out for and lobby on behalf of veterans.

To put it mildly, the guy did not get confirmed. In fact, it was unanimous against him in committee. The guy thought it was just a formality because every outgoing American Legion commander in the last 25 years or so has been named to this committee for a defined term. This is why poo-bah brought his wife along to watch him perform in the committee and see him get stroked by the senators.

But not this time pal.

I also understand this particular senator got woodshedded by the gov's office because this episode had "embarrased" the gov. -- since the d00d was officially nominated by the gov. and the whole mess made the gov. look bad.

This particular senator told the gubernatorial goobers who came to see him to go soak their heads and noted that he'd been trying to get in to see the gov. on some matters affecting his district for months and couldn't get an appt, yet, now, the gov's people were camped out in his office trying to lean on him on behalf of this hypocritical cad.

Anyhoo, the right thing happened, and it looks like the deployed OANG captain of infantry may get his gig back.:D

[SoonerBorn68]

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes5/blazingsad31.jpeg

I didn't get a Hurumph outta that guy!

[Jello Biafra]

I heard an interesting tale yesterday. It seems the outgoing Okla. state "commander" (or whatever they call him) of the American Legion was recommended to be on some state veterans affairs advisory committee by our boy governor.

Apparently, this is a bunch of guys who advise the gov. on veterans affairs and whatnot. It's prestigous and they get invited to lots of cool stuff.

Anyhoo, here's the sucky party. As many know, one of the cool things the American Legion does is run Boys and Girls State. The guy who ran Boys State for them for years (salaried gig) just happened to be a serving OANG guy who deployed to Asscrackistan for over a year. While he was gone, the above mentioned Okla. American legion poo-bah replaced him with some crony of his.

Here's the cool part. last week, when this guy went up for Okla. senate confirmation to the committee, a certain state senator who had gotten wind of this asked the guy in committee, "so, how do feel about holding guardsmen's jobs while they're deployed?" To which, said poo-bah did a lot of harumphing, then affirmed he's 100% in favor of that, and if confirmed, he'd make sure no Okla. employer gives a deployed guardsman the heave-ho while he's deployed.

Then, this senator dropped the hammer. He asked the outgoing American Legion poo-bah, "well sir, what about Capt. <blank>? Didn't you replace him as head of the Legion's Boys State program while he was deployed?"

Poo-bah squirmed and began to hedge. The ginormous a-hole even stated, "well, our legal dept. checked and because we are a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation, the federal and state policies against firing deployed guardsmen don't apply to the American Legion.":eek: Remember, this is a veterans rights organization that purportedly exists to look-out for and lobby on behalf of veterans.

To put it mildly, the guy did not get confirmed. In fact, it was unanimous against him in committee. The guy thought it was just a formality because every outgoing American Legion commander in the last 25 years or so has been named to this committee for a defined term. This is why poo-bah brought his wife along to watch him perform in the committee and see him get stroked by the senators.

But not this time pal.

I also understand this particular senator got woodshedded by the gov's office because this episode had "embarrased" the gov. -- since the d00d was officially nominated by the gov. and the whole mess made the gov. look bad.

This particular senator told the gubernatorial goobers who came to see him to go soak their heads and noted that he'd been trying to get in to see the gov. on some matters affecting his district for months and couldn't get an appt, yet, now, the gov's people were camped out in his office trying to lean on him on behalf of this hypocritical cad.

Anyhoo, the right thing happened, and it looks like the deployed OANG captain of infantry may get his gig back.:D


yeh. doesn't suprise me. i was a member on the war veterans council (i think because i could use a computer) and it was a huge goat screwing back scratching session every second tuesday of the month....... they do a lot of good but a lot of "good ole boying" i wouldn't be a bit surprised if he thought he would go without being discovered.

The american legion was always too busy to help us. they said it was time for them to take care of their baseball teams and the such......this was the younger generations war and we needed to find our own way. (actually had a commander at a post in shawnee tell me that)

[Okla-homey]

The american legion was always too busy to help us. they said it was time for them to take care of their baseball teams and the such......this was the younger generations war and we needed to find our own way. (actually had a commander at a post in shawnee tell me that)

That is precisely why I joined DAV. The Legion can kiss my ponderous white arse.

[Vaevictis]

Do you know which Senator it was that nailed him?

I think I might send him a letter of congratulation.

[usmc-sooner]

all those groups are just a bunch of drinking groups, like the Legion, and VFW and so forth. Not everyone in those groups but a large portion.

[Rogue]

Each "post" is different. Be it VFW, the Legion, DAV, etc. Some are beer halls, some are just fraternal groups, and they all espouse the purpose of vets helping vets. Most really do that, but the drunks really do spoil it sometimes.

Best organization I know of, top to bottom, is the American Ex Prisoners of War. Their spouses are also members. Every person I've met associated with this group is an amazing veteran with a heckuva story. PVA (paralyzed veterans of America) and BVA (blind veterans of America) probably do the most effective lobbying for their members.

As far as dues go, I pay to support the DAV and VFW but I don't ever want to be an office holder again.

[olevetonahill]

Paid up Life Member of the DAV ;)
I cant remember But one of those the VFW or American legion , Told us when we came home that we wernt WAR vets ?:eek:
Had a group try to get me to join a few yrs ago , I asked em about that . They said I need to let that go !:mad:
I said Yup Just like I forgive Hanoi jane

[Jello Biafra]

PVA (paralyzed veterans of America) and BVA (blind veterans of America) probably do the most effective lobbying for their members.

.


which is precisely why PVA has my money and gets it every year they ask for it. i'm not paralyzed but they fought for the gulf war vets when noone else was........

vet, i know what you're saying. had an great uncle die of cancer and he was in both korea(joined with a fake ID at 15) and viet nam (drafted) was sick after he came back from nam and nothing was ever wrong with him according to the VA. turns out, 2 years after his death, we found out that both of the units he was in in Korea and nam were saturated numerous times with Agent Orange.......and there were 24 survivors left at that point in 1989.......hmmmm coincidence? i think back to his life when i was growing up and think about nothing but the movie "Jacob's ladder". very scary feeling.

[olevetonahill]

I remember getting sprayed , So far so good

[Rogue]

OV, you know about all of the "presumptive conditions" associated with AO right? Mainly diabetes (and the secondary problems it causes), soft-tissue cancers, and a few others. If you get 'em, they are "almost" automatically service connected. Just a matter of fillin' out the paperwork and proving your exposure. Since you were 'in-country' in RVN that's an automatic.

[Jello Biafra]

OV, you know about all of the "presumptive conditions" associated with AO right? Mainly diabetes (and the secondary problems it causes), soft-tissue cancers, and a few others. If you get 'em, they are "almost" automatically service connected. Just a matter of fillin' out the paperwork and proving your exposure. Since you were 'in-country' in RVN that's an automatic.


just curious, do you happen to know if lupus is one of the presumptive conditions? i had a nam vet on the vet council with me that had lupus. he died before i found out wether he got a service connection or not. his family could have seriously used that money.

[AlbqSooner]

......this was the younger generations war and we needed to find our own way. (actually had a commander at a post in shawnee tell me that)
A post commander in Pryor told a group of us almost the exact same thing in 1982.

[olevetonahill]

OV, you know about all of the "presumptive conditions" associated with AO right? Mainly diabetes (and the secondary problems it causes), soft-tissue cancers, and a few others. If you get 'em, they are "almost" automatically service connected. Just a matter of fillin' out the paperwork and proving your exposure. Since you were 'in-country' in RVN that's an automatic.
Since Im 100 % total an permanent It dont matter ,
And Jello I think Lupis is covered .

[Okla-homey]

which is precisely why PVA has my money and gets it every year they ask for it. i'm not paralyzed but they fought for the gulf war vets when noone else was........

vet, i know what you're saying. had an great uncle die of cancer and he was in both korea(joined with a fake ID at 15) and viet nam (drafted) was sick after he came back from nam and nothing was ever wrong with him according to the VA. turns out, 2 years after his death, we found out that both of the units he was in in Korea and nam were saturated numerous times with Agent Orange.......and there were 24 survivors left at that point in 1989.......hmmmm coincidence? i think back to his life when i was growing up and think about nothing but the movie "Jacob's ladder". very scary feeling.

I'm thinking you must have some wires crossed in your recounting of this story. First, if he had served in Korea and subsequently discharged, I don't think he could have been a VN draftee. Perhaps he voluntarily enlisted during the VN war? Or perhaps he enlisted for Korea and remained in the Army until VN?

Second, the military use of defoliants did not begin until 1964. Thus, no one was exposed to Agent ORANGE during the Korean War (which ended ten years earlier in 1953.) Further, Korea doesn't have a tropical jungle and we weren't fighting insurgents who hid in, and attacked from the jungle. I know a little about this because I did a paper on it while I was in staff college. During the early 60's, the defoliant spray system, codenamed HOURGLASS, used initially aboard C-123s, was developed.

We thought eliminating the jungle was a good idea in VN because the jungle was the refuge of the VC forces. It was also thought beneficial to eliminate large swaths of jungle surrounding firebases and areas on either side of Charlie's trails.

That overall project was called RANCH HAND. The HOURGLASS , or MC-1, spray system was capable of distributing herbicide (aka Agent ORANGE) at a rate of about a gallon of defoliant per acre; however, after evaluation and modification, the 1,000 gallon C-123/MC-1 spray system was capable of depositing 3 gallons per acre on swaths about as wide as the length of a football field while flying about 200 feet above the jungle.

In 1966, the MC-1 was replaced in all C-123s by a modular spray system designed for internal carriage in cargo aircraft like C-130's. After 1966, the use of defoliants to eliminate large areas of dense jungle really took-off.

Please understand, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm merely saying the story as you recount it here is pretty implausible and I'm thinking you probably don't have the facts straight.

[Jello Biafra]

I'm thinking you must have some wires crossed in your recounting of this story. First, if he had served in Korea and subsequently discharged, I don't think he could have been a VN draftee. Perhaps he voluntarily enlisted during the VN war? Or perhaps he enlisted for Korea and remained in the Army until VN?

possibilty. i have his 214 from 1966 and his enlistment papers from 1952 but nothing releasing him from duty prior to 1966. so it is possible that he stayed in. i do know he didn't return to his hometown until he was given the news that he had cancer.

Second, the military use of defoliants did not begin until 1964. Thus, no one was exposed to Agent ORANGE during the Korean War (which ended ten years earlier in 1953.) Further, Korea doesn't have a tropical jungle and we weren't fighting insurgents who hid in, and attacked from the jungle. I know a little about this because I did a paper on it while I was in staff college. During the early 60's, the defoliant spray system, codenamed HOURGLASS, used initially aboard C-123s, was developed.

paper or not, I have talked to too many korean war vets to know IT (or something close to it) was being used there. *note* i was a service officer for the Desert Storm Justice Foundation working from the VAMC in OKC while in school......

We thought eliminating the jungle was a good idea in VN because the jungle was the refuge of the VC forces. It was also thought beneficial to eliminate large swaths of jungle surrounding firebases and areas on either side of Charlie's trails.

That overall project was called RANCH HAND. The HOURGLASS , or MC-1, spray system was capable of distributing herbicide (aka Agent ORANGE) at a rate of about a gallon of defoliant per acre; however, after evaluation and modification, the 1,000 gallon C-123/MC-1 spray system was capable of depositing 3 gallons per acre on swaths about as wide as the length of a football field while flying about 200 feet above the jungle.

In 1966, the MC-1 was replaced in all C-123s by a modular spray system designed for internal carriage in cargo aircraft like C-130's. After 1966, the use of defoliants to eliminate large areas of dense jungle really took-off.

Please understand, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm merely saying the story as you recount it here is pretty implausible and I'm thinking you probably don't have the facts straight.

I'm not taking offense to anything you are saying im much younger than you and can understand my recall may be fuzzy on some events.

i can understand the need for the defoliants and im not blaming anyone. I AM however, ****ed that the government has to cover shiite like that up to save a few bucks.......same thing will happen with me, no doubt, in 15-20 years when it turns out that "oh my. maybe we shouldn't have troops running around in bunkers that have been hit with depleted uranium rounds from tanks." and o yeh, btw, i lived on that tank for 130 + days and was on it 24-7 for about 90 of those.......


look THAT up. half-life of depleted uranium....... ten thousand years from now when my body is dug up to make a parking lot for another mall, they will still find that crap in my body. :)

[Frozen Sooner]

Just to clarify, did this guy actually fire the guy who was deployed or did he just have some other dude doing his job while he was gone?

If it's the first, run his *** out of town on a rail. If the second-well, I mean, the work still needs to get done, you know?

[Okla-homey]

Just to clarify, did this guy actually fire the guy who was deployed or did he just have some other dude doing his job while he was gone?

If it's the first, run his *** out of town on a rail. If the second-well, I mean, the work still needs to get done, you know?

It was the former apparently. had it been the latter, there would have been no angst by anyone and as you say, the show must go on. It was described to me as one of those "11th hour, I'm almost done so I gotta take care of some pals" dealios. The guy deployed who got the boot is an OKC police officer and captain of infantry in the National Guard. He had been doing the the Boys State thing for the Legion for several years and had received repeated accollades for the job he was doing.

[Frozen Sooner]

Yeah, cool. That's a crappy thing to do. It's come up quite a bit for us-we employ a bunch of Guardsmen and Reservists-and it's one of those deal where not filling the position creates a HUGE hardship for the business. However, we make sure that they know when they come back they will have a job with equivalent responsibility and pay even if we have to make something up.

[Okla-homey]

I'm not taking offense to anything you are saying im much younger than you and can understand my recall may be fuzzy on some events.

i can understand the need for the defoliants and im not blaming anyone. I AM however, ****ed that the government has to cover shiite like that up to save a few bucks.......same thing will happen with me, no doubt, in 15-20 years when it turns out that "oh my. maybe we shouldn't have troops running around in bunkers that have been hit with depleted uranium rounds from tanks." and o yeh, btw, i lived on that tank for 130 + days and was on it 24-7 for about 90 of those.......


look THAT up. half-life of depleted uranium....... ten thousand years from now when my body is dug up to make a parking lot for another mall, they will still find that crap in my body. :)

Yeah, those sabot tank rounds are nasty.

As an aside, when I was in SAC doing nuke deterrence, I actually regularly had to straddle nuke weapons in the bomb-bay in order to check serial numbers when we changed over crews on alert. At least our kid turned out normal.

There's no question there was widespread use of defoliants in VN and guys have gotten sick from the exposure. I sure hope they're getting the care and compensation they deserve.

I'm just really skeptical of a Korean defoliant claim, because it just doesn't make any tactical sense to use defoliants in an area that is essentially a temperate zone and not even moderately forested. The 39th parallel (which is the Korean DMZ) also splits the US from Virginia to Kansas to northern CA.

Now, in 1951 and again in 1952, the People's Republic of China (PRC), North Korea, and the Soviet Union charged that the United States had used a wide range of biological warfare agents, bacterial and viral pathogens and insect vectors of disease, against China and North Korea. If that's true, maybe he got into some of that stuff?

[Jello Biafra]

Yeah, those sabot tank rounds are nasty.

As an aside, when I was in SAC doing nuke deterrence, I actually regularly had to straddle nuke weapons in the bomb-bay in order to check serial numbers when we changed over crews on alert. At least our kid turned out normal.

There's no question there was widespread use of defoliants in VN and guys have gotten sick from the exposure. I sure hope they're getting the care and compensation they deserve.

I'm just really skeptical of a Korean defoliant claim, because it just doesn't make any tactical sense to use defoliants in an area that is essentially a temperate zone and not even moderately forested. The 39th parallel (which is the Korean DMZ) also splits the US from Virginia to Kansas to northern CA.

Now, in 1951 and again in 1952, the People's Republic of China (PRC), North Korea, and the Soviet Union charged that the United States had used a wide range of biological warfare agents, bacterial and viral pathogens and insect vectors of disease, against China and North Korea. If that's true, maybe he got into some of that stuff?


yeh. well, it makes sense though.....at least i know why everyone of the claims for agent orange exposure for Korea was turned down.....we were just barking up the wrong tree. :)

[Rogue]

Agent Orange was used in Korea 1968-9 (not during the Korean war as far as I know).


http://209.61.225.240/index.cfm?fa=news.newsDtl&did=1538




Who and What Is Eligible
Mandatory Requirements

Service in country between April 1968 and July 1969.

Assignment to a specified unit in Korea between April 1968 and July 1969

Medical evidence of presumptive condition under 38 C.F.R. 3.309.

Military Units Eligible (April 1968 to July 1969)
Elements of four combat brigades of the 2nd Infantry Division:
72nd Armor
1st and 2nd battalions
7th Cavalry: 4th Battalion
9th Infantry
1st and 2nd battalions
23rd Infantry
1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions
38th Infantry
1st and 2nd battalions
3rd Brigade, 7th Infantry Division:
73rd Armor: 1st Battalion
10th Cavalry: 2nd Battalion
17th Infantry
1st and 2nd battalions
32nd Infantry: 3rd Battalion





Presumptive Conditions (I don't think Lupus is recognized at this time):
http://www.veterans.state.ny.us/faq/faqagentorange.htm


The number of diseases that VA has recognized as associated with, but not necessarily caused by, Agent Orange exposure has expanded considerably during the 1990's. The following conditions are recognized for service-connection for these veterans: chloracne (a skin disorder), porphyria cutanea tarda, acute or subacute peripheral neuropathy (a nerve disorder), and numerous cancers [non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, soft tissue sarcoma, Hodgkin's disease, multiple myeloma, prostate cancer, and respiratory cancers (including cancers of the lung, larynx, trachea, and bronchus)].

What's hard are the guys who loaded AO on boats, planes, and trucks that weren't "in country" and have some of these presumptive conditions. I've never had any luck getting their disabilities recognized as "service connected." Ft. Polk and Ft. Lewis were apparently loading bases, but guys who got doused there are, for now, SOL.

And, yes, until us vets from Desert Storm stop dying of multiple system failure mysteries, or sprout tails from something else, the proverbial jury is still out about our exposure. Everything from Anthrax vaccinations, PB pills, DU, and "unknown exposures" is still on the table for discussion depending on which research you read.

[Jello Biafra]

Agent Orange was used in Korea 1968-9 (not during the Korean war as far as I know).


http://209.61.225.240/index.cfm?fa=news.newsDtl&did=1538





Presumptive Conditions (I don't think Lupus is recognized at this time):
http://www.veterans.state.ny.us/faq/faqagentorange.htm



What's hard are the guys who loaded AO on boats, planes, and trucks that weren't "in country" and have some of these presumptive conditions. I've never had any luck getting their disabilities recognized as "service connected." Ft. Polk and Ft. Lewis were apparently loading bases, but guys who got doused there are, for now, SOL.

And, yes, until us vets from Desert Storm stop dying of multiple system failure mysteries, or sprout tails from something else, the proverbial jury is still out about our exposure. Everything from Anthrax vaccinations, PB pills, DU, and "unknown exposures" is still on the table for discussion depending on which research you read.


thanks for your research.

and the desert storm thing irks me....

o well......my kids are normal (attitudes aside) and the less i think about it, the better my outlook on life is.....i'll just take my ptsd disability (yeah that's it ptsd :rolleyes: ) and ride off into the sunset :)