Homeschool topic

[sanantoniosooner]

for hammy.

There are times that I think I could teach the subject matter as well or better than quite a few of the teachers that my sons have had.

But homeschooling hasn't interested me for several reasons.

1-I think that a person is more well rounded when they receive instruction from a greater number of people. As you learn, you pick and choose many things from the people you learn from and the more opportunities you have to be exposed to different perspectives, the more power you have to decide who you are and not who someone told you to be. Alternate perspectives provide opportunity for me to discuss what I believe with my children and if I can't explain my position then my child is correct in challenging what I believe.

2-Kids benefit greatly from the social skills they pick up in larger school settings. At some point it is likely they will have to stand up for what they believe in the real world; work force, college....... I know there are more and more programs to promote social opportunities for home schooled kids, but I personally don't think they integrate into our lifestyle as easily as the public school system provides.

3-I prefer to be involved with my kids education while not being solely responsible for it. I feel like I can be a more positive effect on my child's education as an involved third party than as the direct provider.

All of these things focus on the shortcomings of home schooling, from my perspective of course. I obviously recognize that public education has shortcomings of its own. At this point I'm still inclined to stick with public. That might change in the future. Who knows.

[Jimminy Crimson]

...and you're already paying for a free education. It's almost like homeschooling is throwing your tax money away.

[soonerbrat]

my daughter played soccer with a girl that was homeschooled. They belonged to some kind of co-op and would go to other people's houses for different classes...but the kid was still kinda weird.

[crawfish]

Plus, I couldn't stand for my kids to be in the house any more than they are now.

[Viking Kitten]

Homeschooled kids usually do really well in spelling bees though.

[Mjcpr]

Homeschooled kids usually do really well in spelling bees though.
Do you think they could pollenate our vegetation if came down to it?

[Viking Kitten]

I think they're taught that's a sin.

[Mjcpr]

The spelling bees?

Well, we probably are screwed then.

[Petro-Sooner]

Yes, but didnt you read that I have the people at OU convinced I am ready for the real world and can graduate. BWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[soonerscuba]

If you want the **** negged out of you say that homeschooled kids tend to be creepy, with creepy parents.

[sanantoniosooner]

If you want the **** negged out of you say that homeschooled kids tend to be creepy, with creepy parents.
I've met a few that fit the creepy profile, but I wouldn't say it's a rule.

There are plenty creepy kids/parents no matter where you go.

[Widescreen]

We homeschool. I'll leave it to you to decide how creepy I am. We've met some weirdos and we've met some really cool normal people. And for those of you seem to forget, there are a whole lot of really weird people in public schools too. Also, the socialization canard that continues to be used carcks me up (that's right, I said canard!). I would much rather my kids get socialized at church or with kids of our friends than at public school. It's almost as if being socialized at modern public schools is somehow desirable.

[sanantoniosooner]

The only thing desirable about being socialized in the public schools is that you have to join the real world some time.

I'd rather socialize them when I have a strong point of influence in their life than wait for them to feel their way through it without my guidance. They'll probably attend a secular campus or work in a secular workplace.

[Okla-homey]

...and you're already paying for a free education. It's almost like homeschooling is throwing your tax money away.

That could pretty much be said of most public education nowadays.

Look, here's the thing. I've said this before and I mean it. If you beleive in natural selection (as I do, although I haven't bought into the full monty on Darwinian evolution) then you gotta accept that some kids are just hopeless dumarses and should be side tracked from the classroom into making shoes or stuffing envelopes or something.

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.

[sanantoniosooner]

That could pretty much be said of most public education nowadays.

Look, here's the thing. I've said this before and I mean it. If you beleive in natural selection (as I do, although I haven't bought into the full monty on Darwinian evolution) then you gotta accept that some kids are just hopeless dumarses and should be side tracked from the classroom into making shoes or stuffing envelopes or something.

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.
Glad you do. I think it's a VERY simplistic view of the situation though.

[Okla-homey]

The only thing desirable about being socialized in the public schools is that you have to join the real world some time.

I'd rather socialize them when I have a strong point of influence in their life than wait for them to feel their way through it without my guidance. They'll probably attend a secular campus or work in a secular workplace.

Au contraire mon fr'er. Consider the "hot house" analogy. It's what sold us on keeping our kid out of public school as a tyke. Sure, eventually they'll have to face the world, but there's no point in immersing them into the cold and wind while they're little sprouts. Let them grow and become strong before exposing them to the cold, cruel world. That way, they'll be equipped to deal with it and less likely to end up as a statistic.

[Okla-homey]

Glad you do. I think it's a VERY simplistic view of the situation though.

Society is only willing to give so much for public education. Given that, why waste money on the left side of the intelligence bell curve?

If public educrats don't "get" that, then they shouldn't be surprised that people are checking out of public schools in growing numbers. We're lucky in Oklahoma. Our suburban public schools are still pretty good. The rural and urban ones, not so much.

[sanantoniosooner]

I don't think we needed this thread to realize you and I have different ideas on raising children.

[Frozen Sooner]

Society is only willing to give so much for public education. Given that, why waste money on the left side of the intelligence bell curve?

If public educrats don't "get" that, then they shouldn't be surprised that people are checking out of public schools in growing numbers. We're lucky in Oklahoma. Our suburban public schools are still pretty good. The rural and urban ones, not so much.

You can thank the courts and legislature for that, not the schools. Trust me, the schools would rather focus their resources on the right side of the curve.

[olevetonahill]

Ill settle this here debatble
When was the Last Mass shooting By a home skooled kid .
Nuff said .:P

[soonerbrat]

That could pretty much be said of most public education nowadays.

Look, here's the thing. I've said this before and I mean it. If you beleive in natural selection (as I do, although I haven't bought into the full monty on Darwinian evolution) then you gotta accept that some kids are just hopeless dumarses and should be side tracked from the classroom into making shoes or stuffing envelopes or something.

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.

When my son was placed in the gifted program at his school it was considered "special education" and I had to sign a permission form for it.

[Preservation Parcels]

With our four sons, homeschooling was a major foundation of their education. We wanted to teach them to love learning, and they all went about it differently. When they were young, we read a lot of books, did all kinds of hands-on activities, and went to a lot of interesting places. When possible, we tied their subject matter to the things that delighted them. For instance, during baseball season, we did statistical math, read biographies, learned baseball vocabulary, calculated ball trajectories, ran science experiments, and read history that put baseball into perspective.

Some things like reading and math basics are best learned one-on-one; others are better enjoyed in groups. Along the way, they participated with several other families, especially for history and science. Some of us are science moms, and some are history moms. I always figured I could teach my kids to hate science, or I could find someone to teach them to enjoy it. We took several trips with 5-7 families to all kinds of places where history happened, and they got behind the scenes experiences that went far beyond the canned rush-'em-through field trips most students receive. As the subjects became more difficult, they took other classes with groups of homeschooled kids. They took art, foreign language, higher math and music classes, played sports, and volunteered at all kinds of historic sites.

Socialization happened naturally within our community, and they weren't confined to friends their own age. They volunteered with all kinds of people, and they have fond memories of showing little children how to do things, of learning from others who were older and wiser, and of having a great time doing something fun and useful with their friends. They developed real friendships because they had the time. When other kids spent hours on a bus, they spent that time developing their talents, putting their knowledge to work, and having fun being kids.

When the eldest one advanced beyond my ability to challenge him, he enrolled in public school part time for his junior and senior years. He took several AP courses, and he entered college with a bunch of credits behind him. In making that decision, I talked with the principal and told him that we didn't want his school to get in the way of his education. At the age of 13, he developed hands-on history programs for a museum, an historic mill site, and a Civil War fort; and he invited 40 of his closest friends to volunteer with him. He and eight friends developed a hands-on history program called "Bonnets and Bayonets', and they took it to all kinds of schools. The principal gave him excused absences whenever he asked, and he missed 40 days of his senior year with no problem. He's now graduated from college and working at his favorite museum in the world.

We just returned home from a sports banquet for one of the twins. In his first year of college, he played on the basketball team, has the second highest GPA of all the athletes at the school, and he was awarded the "Spirit Award." He also does extreme sports and travels to places where he does "Scare-a Mom" stunts and then talks about his faith. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsTvGRdtyU He works two jobs, plays in a band, and he's everybody's buddy.

His twin brother is an incredible artist, accomplished musician, amazing inventor, and a great cook. He's about to enter culinary school. In a traditional classroom, he might have been put in the "bluebirds" group, but at home and in the classes he's taken, he's thrived. He needed a lot of kinesthetic learning, not workbooks; but now he's mature, confident, dependable, and fascinating.

The 6'4" baby of the bunch is attending private school as a sophomore this year for the first time. He played on the football team, was a starter on the basketball team, and is now enjoying baseball season both pitching and catching on both the JV and Varsity teams. When I pick him up from school, he seems to enjoy everyone, and it appears to be mutual. He has a 4.0 GPA, and he's been to a party or two nearly every weekend since September.

Teachers who can guide 30 children at a time into learning to their highest potential have my utmost respect. Our choice was to evaluate year by year what each son needed. My job wasn't to teach them everything, but it was to find the best place for them to learn what they needed to know.

I've met a lot of parents who should not homeschool their children for a variety of reasons, but I'm extremely grateful to have had the opportunity to truly enjoy my sons. So far, so good.:)

[Soonerus]

I sometimes wished I could have home-schooled...but I do think it is a mixed bag....

[Boarder]

There's a homeschooling convention expo thing this weekend. Mrs SB and one of her friends are going. We plan on homeschooling Mini-SB and Mini-SB 2.

[NYSooner1355]

If you want the **** negged out of you say that homeschooled kids tend to be creepy, with creepy parents.

well, neg me if you want...the experience I've had (with former homeschoolers who transferred their kids to the Oklahoma Virtual School) is that although the kids seem alright - the parents are definitely a bit touched in the head (if you catch my drift...)

[NYSooner1355]

I've met a few that fit the creepy profile, but I wouldn't say it's a rule.

There are plenty creepy kids/parents no matter where you go.

quite true...

[Dio]

If you want the **** negged out of you say that homeschooled kids tend to be creepy, with creepy parents.

People get upset when you make sweeping generalizations about them? Noooo! :rolleyes:

And I am also not a creepy.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6847/samir3ui1.jpg

[stoops the eternal pimp]

A lot of the students in my youth group are home-schooled. I know people make a lot of assumptions about HSKids as a whole. Its hard to do that because every student is different, much like PSKids and really cant be put in a box..some ex

HS 1 has been home schooled his entire education. He is one of the most popular kids in the group and is extremely gifted. He will be touring Autralia this summer putting on guitar clinics. Has no problems with others.

HS 2, number 1 s sister, is 13 and though very smart, cant seem to form any bonds with girls her own age. Seems to get along better with the 10-11 year old girls and is very, very naive. But that tends to do a lot with her mother. It is impossible to treat her like a 13 year old.

HS 3, is a boy that attended PS until the 10th grade. His mother comes to me and says "God" told her to take her son out of PS and start HS with him. He is miserable and is not coping well with this situation. He really isnt keeping up with his work and the mother,IMO, is making her own decisions based on what she wants to do and saying "God" told her so that no one will argue with her..

All I know is that there are kids on both ends of the spectrum in both PS and HS that struggle with the same things

[NYSooner1355]

this is my biggest issue with the homeschool movement - any one can call themselves a "school" - now I know that there are many organizations and groups that offer curriculum to homeschools/parents/consortiums and other groups are accrediting these homeschools - but there are still many instances where it is just fly by night type of situations, and when it becomes convenient (or in some cases necessary) to take the student to "professional" (please don't read into that - just delineating between homeschools and brick/mortar schools public or private) the ones I've had dealings with just don't seem up to snuff. I reviewed one students application for our school (high school level) and there was a note attached that said something along the lines of "little suzie has taken and passed Algebra II, I know she has I gave her the test - signed Suzie's Grandma" I kid you not - that is what it said (with the names changed obviously)

Now how do I determine the legitimacy of that course of education? - how do I determine that little suzie really is ready for trig or pre-calc, or anything for that matter? The parents usually don't want to give the students entrance exams (such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills) - so are we just to take the word of grandma?

Before you say this was a one-instance situation, it was not. I was reviewing applications for the Oklahoma Virtual School and many of the students applying for it are coming from homeschools - and many had odd-ball "transcripts" or letters describing their students education up to that point.

[Blue]

With our four sons, homeschooling was a major foundation of their education. We wanted to teach them to love learning, and they all went about it differently. When they were young, we read a lot of books, did all kinds of hands-on activities, and went to a lot of interesting places. When possible, we tied their subject matter to the things that delighted them. For instance, during baseball season, we did statistical math, read biographies, learned baseball vocabulary, calculated ball trajectories, ran science experiments, and read history that put baseball into perspective.

Some things like reading and math basics are best learned one-on-one; others are better enjoyed in groups. Along the way, they participated with several other families, especially for history and science. Some of us are science moms, and some are history moms. I always figured I could teach my kids to hate science, or I could find someone to teach them to enjoy it. We took several trips with 5-7 families to all kinds of places where history happened, and they got behind the scenes experiences that went far beyond the canned rush-'em-through field trips most students receive. As the subjects became more difficult, they took other classes with groups of homeschooled kids. They took art, foreign language, higher math and music classes, played sports, and volunteered at all kinds of historic sites.

Socialization happened naturally within our community, and they weren't confined to friends their own age. They volunteered with all kinds of people, and they have fond memories of showing little children how to do things, of learning from others who were older and wiser, and of having a great time doing something fun and useful with their friends. They developed real friendships because they had the time. When other kids spent hours on a bus, they spent that time developing their talents, putting their knowledge to work, and having fun being kids.

When the eldest one advanced beyond my ability to challenge him, he enrolled in public school part time for his junior and senior years. He took several AP courses, and he entered college with a bunch of credits behind him. In making that decision, I talked with the principal and told him that we didn't want his school to get in the way of his education. At the age of 13, he developed hands-on history programs for a museum, an historic mill site, and a Civil War fort; and he invited 40 of his closest friends to volunteer with him. He and eight friends developed a hands-on history program called "Bonnets and Bayonets', and they took it to all kinds of schools. The principal gave him excused absences whenever he asked, and he missed 40 days of his senior year with no problem. He's now graduated from college and working at his favorite museum in the world.

We just returned home from a sports banquet for one of the twins. In his first year of college, he played on the basketball team, has the second highest GPA of all the athletes at the school, and he was awarded the "Spirit Award." He also does extreme sports and travels to places where he does "Scare-a Mom" stunts and then talks about his faith. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsTvGRdtyU He works two jobs, plays in a band, and he's everybody's buddy.

His twin brother is an incredible artist, accomplished musician, amazing inventor, and a great cook. He's about to enter culinary school. In a traditional classroom, he might have been put in the "bluebirds" group, but at home and in the classes he's taken, he's thrived. He needed a lot of kinesthetic learning, not workbooks; but now he's mature, confident, dependable, and fascinating.

The 6'4" baby of the bunch is attending private school as a sophomore this year for the first time. He played on the football team, was a starter on the basketball team, and is now enjoying baseball season both pitching and catching on both the JV and Varsity teams. When I pick him up from school, he seems to enjoy everyone, and it appears to be mutual. He has a 4.0 GPA, and he's been to a party or two nearly every weekend since September.

Teachers who can guide 30 children at a time into learning to their highest potential have my utmost respect. Our choice was to evaluate year by year what each son needed. My job wasn't to teach them everything, but it was to find the best place for them to learn what they needed to know.

I've met a lot of parents who should not homeschool their children for a variety of reasons, but I'm extremely grateful to have had the opportunity to truly enjoy my sons. So far, so good.:)


Damn. Do they **** gold bricks, too?


No really. I'm glad you are proud of your children, but that post came off a little cree-pee.

[Preservation Parcels]

Damn. Do they **** gold bricks, too?


nah. They're wonderfully average, and it's just been nice to have time with them and to watch them grow up to be useful. :pop:

[Blue]

nah. They're wonderfully average, and it's just been nice to have time with them and to watch them grow up to be useful. :pop:

Good for you. And I don't mean that sarcastically.

[usmc-sooner]

beer runs, war stories, internet porn, HS Football stories, war stories, beer runs, a few hand to hand combat tricks, old ou videos, four letter words is all part of the curriculem your kids can expect at my home. :D

[Frozen Sooner]

With our four sons, homeschooling was a major foundation of their education. We wanted to teach them to love learning, and they all went about it differently. When they were young, we read a lot of books, did all kinds of hands-on activities, and went to a lot of interesting places. When possible, we tied their subject matter to the things that delighted them. For instance, during baseball season, we did statistical math, read biographies, learned baseball vocabulary, calculated ball trajectories, ran science experiments, and read history that put baseball into perspective.

Some things like reading and math basics are best learned one-on-one; others are better enjoyed in groups. Along the way, they participated with several other families, especially for history and science. Some of us are science moms, and some are history moms. I always figured I could teach my kids to hate science, or I could find someone to teach them to enjoy it. We took several trips with 5-7 families to all kinds of places where history happened, and they got behind the scenes experiences that went far beyond the canned rush-'em-through field trips most students receive. As the subjects became more difficult, they took other classes with groups of homeschooled kids. They took art, foreign language, higher math and music classes, played sports, and volunteered at all kinds of historic sites.

Socialization happened naturally within our community, and they weren't confined to friends their own age. They volunteered with all kinds of people, and they have fond memories of showing little children how to do things, of learning from others who were older and wiser, and of having a great time doing something fun and useful with their friends. They developed real friendships because they had the time. When other kids spent hours on a bus, they spent that time developing their talents, putting their knowledge to work, and having fun being kids.

When the eldest one advanced beyond my ability to challenge him, he enrolled in public school part time for his junior and senior years. He took several AP courses, and he entered college with a bunch of credits behind him. In making that decision, I talked with the principal and told him that we didn't want his school to get in the way of his education. At the age of 13, he developed hands-on history programs for a museum, an historic mill site, and a Civil War fort; and he invited 40 of his closest friends to volunteer with him. He and eight friends developed a hands-on history program called "Bonnets and Bayonets', and they took it to all kinds of schools. The principal gave him excused absences whenever he asked, and he missed 40 days of his senior year with no problem. He's now graduated from college and working at his favorite museum in the world.

We just returned home from a sports banquet for one of the twins. In his first year of college, he played on the basketball team, has the second highest GPA of all the athletes at the school, and he was awarded the "Spirit Award." He also does extreme sports and travels to places where he does "Scare-a Mom" stunts and then talks about his faith. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsTvGRdtyU He works two jobs, plays in a band, and he's everybody's buddy.

His twin brother is an incredible artist, accomplished musician, amazing inventor, and a great cook. He's about to enter culinary school. In a traditional classroom, he might have been put in the "bluebirds" group, but at home and in the classes he's taken, he's thrived. He needed a lot of kinesthetic learning, not workbooks; but now he's mature, confident, dependable, and fascinating.

The 6'4" baby of the bunch is attending private school as a sophomore this year for the first time. He played on the football team, was a starter on the basketball team, and is now enjoying baseball season both pitching and catching on both the JV and Varsity teams. When I pick him up from school, he seems to enjoy everyone, and it appears to be mutual. He has a 4.0 GPA, and he's been to a party or two nearly every weekend since September.

Teachers who can guide 30 children at a time into learning to their highest potential have my utmost respect. Our choice was to evaluate year by year what each son needed. My job wasn't to teach them everything, but it was to find the best place for them to learn what they needed to know.

I've met a lot of parents who should not homeschool their children for a variety of reasons, but I'm extremely grateful to have had the opportunity to truly enjoy my sons. So far, so good.:)

I agree with darn near everything you said.

Home school makes me nervous because not every parent is like you and qualified to educate their child in a productive manner and there doesn't seem to be enough in the way of actual validation of home-school results. That being said, it seems that the majority of home-school parents do seem to be motivated and intelligent people. I definitely find home-school of children for intelligent, motivated people of faith who don't want their child exposed to certain topics to be a better solution than banning discussion in the classroom.

Bravo to you for raising what sound like well-adjusted and bright children.

[Okla-homey]

Damn. Do they **** gold bricks, too?


No really. I'm glad you are proud of your children, but that post came off a little cree-pee.

Nothing "creepy" there to me. I know this lady. None of that is hyperbole. She's an incredibly committed person. I'm quite certain she's an equally committed mom.

just saying.

[RacerX]

...and you're already paying for a free education. It's almost like homeschooling is throwing your tax money away.
Yeah, nobody likes to see tax money thrown away.

[Sooner Born Sooner Bred]

Wow. This thread was so enlightening. I'm glad to know that my niece who is in 2nd grade, but reads on a 5th grade level, is an idiot. So much for public education.

[Okla-homey]

Wow. This thread was so enlightening. I'm glad to know that my niece who is in 2nd grade, but reads on a 5th grade level, is an idiot. So much for public education.

Where did that come from? Nothing anyone has written here should reasonably be interpreted as an indictment of smart kids generally, or public school expenditures on their behalf specifically. If your niece is that smart, she's precisely the sort of child public school ought to be enabling to do even better.

Some have stated here that brilliant kids often do better if homeschooled because they don't have to wait on everyone else and thus they are less likely to become bored. That sounds like a completely rational notion to moi.

The thing about "No Child Left Behind" I don't agree with is the fact that some kids are incapable of staying with the herd. That's a completely natural phenomenon that exists everywhere else in nature. I wish teachers in public school were'nt held accountable for those kids' performance. IOW, the educrats should figure out a way to deduct those kids performance on standardized tests from the results. I'm not saying we should throw those slow kids away, but our expectations for those kids ought to be realistic and we shouldn't expend already limited resources on impractical and misguided attempts to help them reach their "full potential" -- whatever TF that means anyway.

When I was a kid, after 6th grade or so, the kids who couldn't keep up were slotted into "vocational training." Maybe some of that still goes on in publics. I hope so.

As far as the no kiddin' profoundly mentally handicapped kids goes...that's a toughy because the courts have held those kids have a right to the same free public education all the other kids get.
Unfortunately, that just means some teacher who might better be employed helping the other 97% must be employed to keep the drool wiped up. It's a public policy tragedy IMHO.

[crawfish]

Wow. This thread was so enlightening. I'm glad to know that my niece who is in 2nd grade, but reads on a 5th grade level, is an idiot. So much for public education.

Ouch! Watch where you jerk that knee!

;)

[usmc-sooner]

Wow. This thread was so enlightening. I'm glad to know that my niece who is in 2nd grade, but reads on a 5th grade level, is an idiot. So much for public education.

It's better you find out on here than have to discover this late in life.

[Hamhock]

what he said

excellent post.

this sums up my experience as well.

one guy actually said to me one day "Your kids won't learn the social skills of playing on a playground with 80 other kids. They'll need that when they enter the real world".

the funny thing is that, at that very moment, my 3 kids were with 12 other kids (ranging in age from 5-17), taking "stuff" they had done as school projects (baking, crafts, etc) to a nursing home. They spent the day hanging out with the old folks, putting on a program (piano, vocal, flute, dance, etc) for the residents, learning history from them, and volunteering with the workers to learn how a nursing home is run.

please don't take that as a "ooh, look at my kids". i am very, very concerned that my kids get the social skills it takes to make it in life. i just don't think that being crammed in a class with 30 other kids, their same age, at one pace is the best way to do it.

for us, homeschooling is a kid by kid, year by year decision. we may very well put a kid in private or public school one day, but only when we decide they're ready.

[Hamhock]

There's a homeschooling convention expo thing this weekend. Mrs SB and one of her friends are going. We plan on homeschooling Mini-SB and Mini-SB 2.


the OCHEC convention is allsome!!

it can also be very, very overwhelming. tell her this in advance.

you guys need to find a family that is well into, or almost finished homeschooling and seek council from them. we went into it on our own and it was so overwhelming we almost quit.

[sanantoniosooner]

Before you guys go off on some "home schooled kids are smarter" thing, I've seen plenty of them that are pure stupid too.

Some parents believe they can provide a better education, and I believe they work hard to accomplish that. Some parents are all about being down on the public system and really don't even do nearly as good.

It still boils down to the parental involvement which sets a stage for success in either type of education.

[Hamhock]

Before you guys go off on some "home schooled kids are smarter" thing, I've seen plenty of them that are pure stupid too.

Some parents believe they can provide a better education, and I believe they work hard to accomplish that. Some parents are all about being down on the public system and really don't even do nearly as good.

It still boils down to the parental involvement which sets a stage for success in either type of education.


i couldn't agree more. if one of my kids turns out to be "pure stupid", i'm glad they'll have the one on one attention they need to have a chance at it.

[sanantoniosooner]

Well, usually the "pure stupid" gene is passed on from the parents. :D

[Hamhock]

Well, usually the "pure stupid" gene is passed on from the parents. :D


oh ****:O

[OUDoc]

Homey,
Until my son was diagnosed with Autism, I probably would have agreed with you (but probably not publicly). Your views change when it happens to you. Now, true, not every kid is going to be able to graduate with a HS diploma, but I'd bet my last dollar that IF SOMETHING WASN'T MANDATED, the schools would sweep a lot of these kids under the rug (hell, they try to do that now). The children deserve better than that. Maybe (probably) the current rules are too strong, but at least they force taxpayer-funded schools to be accountable. NO ONE knows the potential of SOME of these special education kids. It wasn't that long ago that people commonly believed that everyone with cerebral palsy was mentally retarded. Most aren't. Within the last 5 years, experts agreed that upwards of 60-80% of Autistic children were mentally retarded. That number is now believed to be much lower. The real problem would be placing every kid with a label, and only educating them as much as prescribed by that label.
The public schools shouldn't foot the bill for everything, but they, like everyone else in the world, should be accountable for their "product". Their product is education, and I expect them to educate my son to the best of their and his abilities.
Besides, I was in the "advanced" classes at the same school district. My son's now in the "developmentally delayed" classes. It would seem everything has evened out for that school district, wouldn't it?

[SoonerJack]

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.

Do you think you would feel that way if one of your children needed a special-ed program?

[Hamhock]

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.


don't you care that 1TC is going to read this? have you no compassion?

[sanantoniosooner]

There are "special needs" kids in my Stats class at UTSA.

A deaf girl that requires an interpreter for each class. She's a distraction because she grunts and is very loud even though she can't hear it.

And there is a guy that has autism. He has rubbed his lips and bobbed the whole semester. It's also a distraction. He gets to take the tests under different circumstances than the rest of the students.

I'm glad that provisions are made for these students and the rest of us have to learn to cope with their presence and even develop a connection with students that would normally be hidden in a corner.

[Hamhock]

He has rubbed his lips and bobbed the whole semester. It's also a distraction.


stop it. you're making howzit hawny.

[Taxman71]

Why can't parents send their kids to public school and work them at home also to refine their education and development? Seems like the best of both worlds to me. That's what we do. It isn't an "either or" situation for my kids.

Also, I think it more important for kids to learn how to deal with troubled or bad kids than merely avoid their presence altogether. Otherwise, I would think a trip to WalMart (or little league) would put them in therapy.

[Taxman71]

There are "special needs" kids in my Stats class at UTSA.

A deaf girl that requires an interpreter for each class. She's a distraction because she grunts and is very loud even though she can't hear it.

And there is a guy that has autism. He has rubbed his lips and bobbed the whole semester. It's also a distraction. He gets to take the tests under different circumstances than the rest of the students.

I'm glad that provisions are made for these students and the rest of us have to learn to cope with their presence and even develop a connection with students that would normally be hidden in a corner.

I smell an episode of My Name is Earl.

[Hamhock]

Otherwise, I would think a trip to WalMart (or little league) would put them in therapy.


we're not risking it. we don't allow the kids to go to walmart until they're 18.

and, obviously you don't know, but little league spelled backward in hebrew is SATAN.

[crawfish]

I've known some homeschooled kids who were the smartest, most well-adjusted kids I'd ever seen. And I know some who were dumbarses. It really depends on the parents, as was said before.

Some parents are cut out to homeschool well, some aren't. We fall into the latter category. The important thing is to be involved in your kids' education no matter where they go.

[Vaevictis]

... because they don't have to wait on everyone else and thus they are less likely to become bored. That sounds like a completely rational notion to moi.

It's not just a matter of getting bored. It's a matter of getting frustrated and angry with the system, and eventually saying, "**** this, I'm not doing this any more." Bored is easy enough to cure, but a bad attitude built up over years of being jacked with is hard to fix.

Just sayin'.


I wish teachers in public school were'nt held accountable for those kids' performance. IOW, the educrats should figure out a way to deduct those kids performance on standardized tests from the results.

I think the real issue is that they need to measure the progress year over year within an individual student and reward or punish that as appropriate. Simple bands (behind, level, advanced) are bull****, IMO. You shouldn't reward a district/school/teacher for taking a kid who starts the year advanced and ends it merely on level. Nor should you punish a district/school/teacher for taking a kid who starts the year two or three grade levels behind and ends it only one.

And the real problem with stuff like No Child Left Behind is that the districts are incentivized to teach the test. I was in school in Texas (where all this bull**** seems to have come from) back when the whole standardized testing thing was taking root in the early 90's, and let me tell you -- we spent half a year in our English and math classes preparing for the TAAS test when I was in 8th grade. Just learning how to take the test, not actually learning something. Complete, utter bull****.

Instead of all this bull**** standardized testing, which is utterly ****ing useless, what they need to do is expect the teachers to be the licensed professionals that they are supposed to be. Make the teachers certify that the kids are ready for the next level when they pass them, and if the kids ain't when they get there, they should have their license revoked.

[soonerbrat]

this is a tad off topic..but wondering..with OUdoc mentioning his autistic child....I have a friend who has a son with Aspberger's...is there any theory about why so many kids are being diagnosed with autism these days? Are people just more aware or is there a higher incidence? Same question about asthma. Have so many kids always had asthma?

[Hamhock]

this is a tad off topic..but wondering..with OUdoc mentioning his autistic child....I have a friend who has a son with Aspberger's...is there any theory about why so many kids are being diagnosed with autism these days? Are people just more aware or is there a higher incidence? Same question about asthma. Have so many kids always had asthma?


government forced immunizations

:pop:

[OUDoc]

this is a tad off topic..but wondering..with OUdoc mentioning his autistic child....I have a friend who has a son with Aspberger's...is there any theory about why so many kids are being diagnosed with autism these days? Are people just more aware or is there a higher incidence? Same question about asthma. Have so many kids always had asthma?
I'll try to address this at lunch, I've got 3 patients in rooms right now. :)

[Hamhock]

I'll try to address this at lunch, I've got 3 patients in rooms right now. :)

a doctor cares that there are patients waiting in rooms...

BWAHAAHAAHAAA.....you almost had me.

[sanantoniosooner]

a doctor cares that there are patients waiting in rooms...

BWAHAAHAAHAAA.....you almost had me.
He put them in there at 9 AM.

[Howzit]

this is a tad off topic..but wondering..with OUdoc mentioning his autistic child....I have a friend who has a son with Aspberger's...is there any theory about why so many kids are being diagnosed with autism these days? Are people just more aware or is there a higher incidence? Same question about asthma. Have so many kids always had asthma?

And piggybacking (****!) on brat's question, can anything be done (*******!) about Tourrete's (MOTHER****ER!)?

[NormanPride]

Doc has patients?! :eek:

[sanantoniosooner]

BOB SAGET!!!!

[Preservation Parcels]

The important thing is to be involved in your kids' education no matter where they go.

Yes, exactly! Our kids had every form of education over the years. They each had benefits and drawbacks.

Homeschooling meant we lived on one income and that I had to be disciplined, but the foundation set them up for success. I had their attention when they were fresh and alert, not at the end of a long day and a long bus ride. We could speed through the things they understood and take time on the things they didn't. Personally tailored education gave them time to pursue their individual interests after the math and grammar were finished for the day.

Group situations meant preparing to teach several children, but they did incredible science experiments, evaluated and encouraged each others' writing, and experienced history in memorable ways and places.

Paid classes just cost money, but again, they provided things I couldn't.

Private school costs a bundle, but it's the right thing for the youngest right now. He thrives on sports and crowds.

When the eldest one was first at public high school, some guys confronted him in the restroom, "Hey, do you have any money?" He just smiled and said, "No, thanks. I'm fine," and he walked out. By then, he didn't need our help. He handled it himself, treated people decently, and he never had any other problems. There was a lot of wasted time between disciplining problem kids and nearly weekly bomb scares, but he ended up with the scores that led to college credits that led to a degree that led to the job he wanted.

A friend says, "We're not raising children. We're raising adults." When all is said and done, I want my sons to be men who are faithful, resourceful, and joyful. So far, so good.

[OUDoc]

this is a tad off topic..but wondering..with OUdoc mentioning his autistic child....I have a friend who has a son with Aspberger's...is there any theory about why so many kids are being diagnosed with autism these days? Are people just more aware or is there a higher incidence? Same question about asthma. Have so many kids always had asthma?
Plenty of theories but no answers. Yes, there are those who believe vaccinations lead to Autism, but there is no proof of this. People seem to cling to the vaccination theory anyway, since the timing of the increase coincides with the timing of the rise in recommended vaccinations. Some think it could be genetic, but that wouldn't really explain a recent rise in diagnoses. Most of the efforts to raise money are going to Autism research to find the reasons. No one knows yet.

Some interesting incidence and private funding numbers from 2005:
Leukemia affects 1/25,000 funding $310 million
Muscular Dystrophy 1/20,000 $175M
Pediatric AIDS 1/8,000 $394M
Juvenile Diabetes 1/500 $130M
Autism 1/166 $15M

The NIH 2005 annual budget was $29 billion. Autism research got 0.3% ($100 million).

More people are being diagnosed with Autism, but they are also including milder cases that wouldn't have been included before. This doesn't account for all the new cases, however. So, people are becoming more aware, more people are now included in the diagnosis, but even more are getting diagnosed despite these changes.

I can't really answer your asthma question. Lots of kids have asthma, some "outgrow it", some don't. I'm not aware of any increase in asthma cases recently, which doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Sorry for the threadjack.

[sooneron]

And to add to Doc's post, a lot of studies point to power plants that burn fossil fuels that buy up credits from cleaner industries as a major cause of asthma.

[Soonrboy]

There are homeschooled people who do it well, more power to them, if they are making sure that their children are socialized with other children. My worry is that the make-up of the home-schooled associations seem to be very homogenous - the kids are not exposed to different people and thus do not develop a "tolerance" or a understanding of other cultures, abilities and people.

Unfortunately, my experience with home-schoolers has not been on the positive side.

Oklahoma has to tighten up its home-schooling ties. It is scary how little the accountability is for home-schooling. Literally, people just have to tell the local school district that they are home-schooling and that's it. Some states have mandatory testing for the home-schoolers. I think Florida and Pennsyvania, I could be wrong, have some of the more stringent home-schooling rules.

Home schooling doesn't always equate to being better than public schools, just as private school doesn't necessarily mean better.

My own children go to public schools, they will succeed, because they have two parents who will ensure that. the will to succeed has to come from home.

[soonerbrat]

Plenty of theories but no answers. Yes, there are those who believe vaccinations lead to Autism, but there is no proof of this. People seem to cling to the vaccination theory anyway, since the timing of the increase coincides with the timing of the rise in recommended vaccinations. Some think it could be genetic, but that wouldn't really explain a recent rise in diagnoses. Most of the efforts to raise money are going to Autism research to find the reasons. No one knows yet.

Some interesting incidence and private funding numbers from 2005:
Leukemia affects 1/25,000 funding $310 million
Muscular Dystrophy 1/20,000 $175M
Pediatric AIDS 1/8,000 $394M
Juvenile Diabetes 1/500 $130M
Autism 1/166 $15M

The NIH 2005 annual budget was $29 billion. Autism research got 0.3% ($100 million).

More people are being diagnosed with Autism, but they are also including milder cases that wouldn't have been included before. This doesn't account for all the new cases, however. So, people are becoming more aware, more people are now included in the diagnosis, but even more are getting diagnosed despite these changes.

I can't really answer your asthma question. Lots of kids have asthma, some "outgrow it", some don't. I'm not aware of any increase in asthma cases recently, which doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Sorry for the threadjack.


as far as the asthma thing..i don't remember ANYONE having asthma when I was growing up. now about every other kid i see is carrying around an inhaler. it just seems strange to me..

[Hamhock]

Oklahoma has to tighten up its home-schooling ties. It is scary how little the accountability is for home-schooling. Literally, people just have to tell the local school district that they are home-schooling and that's it. Some states have mandatory testing for the home-schoolers. I think Floriday and Pennsyvania, I could be wrong, have some of the more stringent home-schooling rules.

.


As a parent in Oklahoma, I am not required to tell anyone I'm home-schooling.

[Soonrboy]

As a parent in Oklahoma, I am not required to tell anyone I'm home-schooling.


I kind of thought that.

It's bad that all home-schoolers get lumped together. It's nice to read that you take it on a year-to-year basis, because I can't stand all schools being lumped together.

[Soonrboy]

Okay, this is pretty sad.

I literally, just now, had a mother in my office telling me that they were pulling their daughter out to home-school her. The counselor last week turned their names into the DA for excessive absences. The teacher has had to call in to DHS because the 2nd grade girl will come and say that she was by herself all night.

Now, the mother fits the bill as the meth-mom. No teeth, skinny as a rail, couldn't stop talking. Looks terrible. But she can homeschool her child better than what she's getting. Sheez, maybe I need to re-examine my professional life.

This is my experience with home-schooling.

[sanantoniosooner]

That's my concern about it. I'm afraid that for every parent like Perservation Parcles, there's a dozen oddball losers. Probably wrong, but I've seen enough to make me wonder.

[Hamhock]

that is sad.

i'm not sure what that has to do with homeschooling. sounds like mom is a terrible, crack-head parent, regardless of where the kid is going to school.

[Taxman71]

I can see homeschooling 1 or 2 kids if close in age, but I know families in which the mother alone will homeschool 5 or 6 kids ranging 10 years apart in age. How the heck does any one of those kids get enough attention on a daily basis at their learning level?

Maybe homeschooling is only for 1 kid families?:rolleyes:

[Hamhock]

I can see homeschooling 1 or 2 kids if close in age, but I know families in which the mother alone will homeschool 5 or 6 kids ranging 10 years apart in age. How the heck does any one of those kids get enough attention on a daily basis at their learning level?

Maybe homeschooling is only for 1 kid families?:rolleyes:

in these families that you know, how well prepared are the kids for life/college/etc when they come of age?

[Taxman71]

From my limited time around them, they seem lacking in social interaction skills. It is like church is the only time they see other kids/people and go bonkers.

None are old enough to test them for life/college/etc. yet, I guess time will tell.

[Hamhock]

i'm sure there are plenty of socially inept home school kids, but let's not forget about the amount of socially inept public school kids.

i don't think homeschooling makes the kid a dork, i think dorkness makes the kid a dork.

[Soonrboy]

that is sad.

i'm not sure what that has to do with homeschooling. sounds like mom is a terrible, crack-head parent, regardless of where the kid is going to school.


I guess I should have said this is my experience with people who want to home school.

[Taxman71]

i'm sure there are plenty of socially inept home school kids, but let's not forget about the amount of socially inept public school kids.

i don't think homeschooling makes the kid a dork, i think dorkness makes the kid a dork.

Very true. However, dorks can find comfort with other dorks in public or private schools. They might even become Tri-Lambs.

[Okla-homey]

Oklahoma has to tighten up its home-schooling ties. It is scary how little the accountability is for home-schooling. Literally, people just have to tell the local school district that they are home-schooling and that's it. Some states have mandatory testing for the home-schoolers. I think Florida and Pennsyvania, I could be wrong, have some of the more stringent home-schooling rules.

Florida requires home educators to either 1) test their pupils each year, 2) have a certified teacher evaluate their pupils' accomplishment and submit a report or 3) submit an evaluation of their pupils performance each year to the local school superintendent who presumably reviews it and decides if it is adequate. No data is available on the number of home educators who get in trouble when they do #3, but a check of a Florida home education website would seem to indicate its a pretty pro forma dealio and it doesn't appear anyone actually looks at the stuff they turn in.

Some home educators in Florida refuse to do any of these claiming their constitutional right to educate their children in the manner in which they see fit under a 1920's line of cases when states were held by SCOTUS to be overreaching when they required all kids to go to government run schools. The landmark case was a bald-faced attempt by a state to destroy parochial schools. The Knights of Columbus (sort of like Roman Catholic freemasons) bankrolled the lawsuit to enjoin enforcement of the law and the Supremes agreed. see Pierce v. Society of the Sisters of the Holy Name of Jesus and Mary, 268 U.S. 510 (1925).

Bottomline in this country: They're your kids. You must ensure they are educated, however, it's largely left to parental discretion how you choose to do so. Further, states can't unreasonably interefere with the liberty parents enjoy to direct the upbringing and education of their children. Methinks that's a good thing. The alternative would trap all our kids in the government sector schools.

[12]

Teaching from the home has many benefits; not the least being the early-morning history lesson from our own Col. Homey.

(And he always keeps his language PG or less... which is much appreciated.) Often, we'll research more about the lesson, learning more about the interesting subjects.

[NYSooner1355]

I believe OK is trying to come up with a legal way to test home-school kids in the End-of-Instruction exams that are going on right now - I would imagine for two purposes - as a check to see the students progress in specific courses and probably as a way to receive more public funding for "testing"

[Okla-homey]

I believe OK is trying to come up with a legal way to test home-school kids in the End-of-Instruction exams that are going on right now - I would imagine for two purposes - as a check to see the students progress in specific courses and probably as a way to receive more public funding for "testing"

Thou hast struck a nerve. If what you're saying is true, OUr state better tread lightly and go slow. Such a thing could easily spawn endless constitutional rights litigation to enjoin the enforcement of such state law.

I'm convinced the "state standards for home education" thing is a "wolf in sheep's clothing." We all know what's going on here. The public school interests want those home educated butts back in the government school seats because enrollment #'s = cash for schools in the form of federal and state dollars tied to enrollment figures.

You must ask the threshold question, why test home educated kids in the first place? Is it so they can be forced back into the government school if the home educator is not performing up to some arbitrary standard established by the commissars of the state department of education who, BTW were long ago co-opted and controlled by teachers unions?

If that is the case, as I strongly suggest could be proven in court, the whole thing gets sent back to the the educrats with admonishment to worry about the kids they still have and leave alone the kids they've lost. Further, parents, more so than the state, have the strongest motivation to ensure their kids are well educated.

That could also easily become a double-edged sword with which to slice and dice failed public schools. IOW, do the parents whose kids are'nt achieving the same standards by which home educators would be measured who still attend public schools derive the right to take little Johnny AND the money elsewhere -- be it a better public school or the private sector? Dang right they should.

[StoopTroup]

We should just take the extra Government money and divert it into the War on Terror. ;)

[Okla-homey]

I'll telll you another dang thing. I believe if home educators decided to press it, they could prevail in an action to compel the state to help provide educational materials. After all, home educators pay taxes.

Also, when we were stationed in Ohio, our private school kid got to ride the public school bus to her school because years ago, a group of private school parents sued based on the fact that they pay taxes and the state, since it had put itself in the school transportation business, had to transport their kids to the schools those private school kids attended too because that was fair and equitable under an equal protection analysis.

I'm surpised private school parents in Oklahoma haven't tried it.

[OUDoc]

I'll telll you another dang thing. I believe if home educators decided to press it, they could prevail in an action to compel the state to help provide educational materials. After all, home educators pay taxes.

Also, when we were stationed in Ohio, our private school kid got to ride the public school bus to her school because years ago, a group of private school parents sued based on the fact that they pay taxes and the state, since it had put itself in the school transportation business, had to transport their kids to the schools those private school kids attended.

I'm surpised private school parents in Oklahoma haven't tried it.
A public yellow school bus to Heritage Hall would be cool.

[85Sooner]

Actually, as someone who treated kids for 5 years.


Homeschooled children in general avg about 1-2 years ahead academically than their public school peers.

As far as socialization. Homeschooled children tend to be more likely to behave according to their convictions as opposed to being influenced by peer pressure as evidenced by lower drug,tobacco, and alcohol use plus lower crime statistics.

Actually the last one makes sense. Most of someones bad habits are generally developed during the highschool years and reflect the influence of peers and a general, natural tendency to be against the established family belief system. Lastly after you exit highschool, the folks that were your peers actually will not be around for very long and don't play a significant role over the average lifetime. Lets face it , we all wasted alot of time during those years.

I keep hoping to talk my wife into homeschooling but don't think I am going to win that battle. I know several homeschooled children and they ARE weird!!!!!!!! They still use words like Yes sir and Yes Maam.

[sanantoniosooner]

85, the kids you mentioned would probably use "Yes sir" and "yes maam" either way since that's something parents insist on.

Parental involvement is key in either system.

[Okla-homey]

Actually, as someone who treated kids for 5 years.


Homeschooled children in general avg about 1-2 years ahead academically than their public school peers.

As far as socialization. Homeschooled children tend to be more likely to behave according to their convictions as opposed to being influenced by peer pressure as evidenced by lower drug,tobacco, and alcohol use plus lower crime statistics.

Actually the last one makes sense. Most of someones bad habits are generally developed during the highschool years and reflect the influence of peers and a general, natural tendency to be against the established family belief system. Lastly after you exit highschool, the folks that were your peers actually will not be around for very long and don't play a significant role over the average lifetime. Lets face it , we all wasted alot of time during those years.

I keep hoping to talk my wife into homeschooling but don't think I am going to win that battle. I know several homeschooled children and they ARE weird!!!!!!!! They still use words like Yes sir and Yes Maam.

Good for you. My wife and I both worked so we decided instead of home educating, we'd go the private school route. We believe that in the end, its a personal choice that each family should make.

I think the data are pretty conclusive that public, private and home education can be marvelous for children. I just get my back up when public school types, who have an inherent conflict of interest in that their livelihood is dependent on enrollment numbers, start slamming home educators and depicting them as crazed whackjobs.

[PhxSooner]

I stay at home with my two munchkins, and could, in theory, home school. My seven year-old is finishing first grade, and loves his teacher and his school. It's public, but I will admit that we are in a part of town where most of the families have at least one and usually both parents who finished college.

If I tried to home school my four year-old daughter, one of us would not survive, and I don't think my husband is ready to be a single parent.:O :D

[85Sooner]

Good for you. My wife and I both worked so we decided instead of home educating, we'd go the private school route. We believe that in the end, its a personal choice that each family should make.

I think the data are pretty conclusive that public, private and home education can be marvelous for children. I just get my back up when public school types, who have an inherent conflict of interest in that their livelihood is dependent on enrollment numbers, start slamming home educators and depicting them as crazed whackjobs.


i TOTALLY AGREE. The public educational system should be turned back over to the local communities and the PTA's. The same education does not work for both the wall street bound business types and the Nebraska farmer to be.

Also private school has now become a franchise business. I still don't know why I can't use my tax money to go toward a private school. Have there beenany major lawsuits against the gov regarding this?

[Boarder]

What I don't get is why anyone would bash one way or another. Is there some big national problem with homeschooled kids that I'm not aware of? Why would someone feel so strongly against it? I don't ever recall hearing of a growing problem among homeschooled kids where they are unable to assimilate into life after school.

What's the big deal? If someone wants to homeschool thier kids, fine. If they want to send them to public school, fine. No biggie one way or another. Unless it becomes some sort of problem, of course.

And really, the only negative you ever hear of is the socialization thing. Is that really a national problem we should be concerned about? Or is it someone who doesn't agree with homeschooling (which is perfectly fine, btw) grasping for straws to find something negative about it?

[Boarder]

Oh, and I've never had any real concern over teachers. I feel it's more of the upper administration than anything that's the problem. The teachers have to do the best under the rules they're told. And I really feel for them, for sure.

[sanantoniosooner]

Just for the record........I'm not sure anyone has bashed any particular type of education in this thread.

People have made observations based on life experience.

[Hamhock]

I believe OK is trying to come up with a legal way to test home-school kids in the End-of-Instruction exams that are going on right now - I would imagine for two purposes - as a check to see the students progress in specific courses and probably as a way to receive more public funding for "testing"

on what do you base this belief?

a few months ago, there was a bill that attempted to do 3 things. 1. require homeschoolers to notify their local public school 2. submit to public school testing and 3. place homeschool kids under the jurisdiction of public school truancy officers.

this bill didn't make it very far

there was another bill that attempted to give homeschoolers some state money for education.

this bill didn't make it very far.

[Hamhock]

I'll telll you another dang thing. I believe if home educators decided to press it, they could prevail in an action to compel the state to help provide educational materials. After all, home educators pay taxes.

i think for the most part, homeschool parents just want to be left alone.

while i agree with you on the taxes and i could make an argument that i should get some help with the education of my kids, i know that the day the state gives me $$ is the day the state will want a say in what i'm doing.

no thanks, i'll pay for it my self.

[Widescreen]

What I don't get is why anyone would bash one way or another. Is there some big national problem with homeschooled kids that I'm not aware of? Why would someone feel so strongly against it? I don't ever recall hearing of a growing problem among homeschooled kids where they are unable to assimilate into life after school.
We've homeschooled now for 6 years and during that time we've run across a wide variety of reactions when we tell people we homeschool. But generally they either say something like "oh, I could never homeschool my kids" and then laugh or they start in on the whole socialization thing. However, the most vehement people are nearly always entrenched in the public school system (or a significant other is). The public statement is always "parents aren't qualified to teach" and their unspoken concern is the reduction in school funding because of people pulling their kids out of the public school system.

[the_ouskull]

My presence was requested here, but I'm not sure what, exactly, the question is to which I am supposed to lend MY opinionswer.

the_ouskull

[sanantoniosooner]

My presence was requested here, but I'm not sure what, exactly, the question is to which I am supposed to lend MY opinionswer.

the_ouskull
Educators topic and Homeschool topic are two different things.

[Okla-homey]

i TOTALLY AGREE. The public educational system should be turned back over to the local communities and the PTA's. The same education does not work for both the wall street bound business types and the Nebraska farmer to be.

Also private school has now become a franchise business. I still don't know why I can't use my tax money to go toward a private school. Have there beenany major lawsuits against the gov regarding this?

The case law generally stands for the proposition that the state has an interest in educating the kiddies and educated kiddies benefit us all, therefore, the state can tax to pay for it...even folks who have no kids.

To my knowledge, no one has ever won one in which they sued to have their tax dinero directly paid to their kids private school. What we have had is things I consider "indirect" payments like this public school bussing to private schools I've experienced or state subsidized educational materials to private schools and the like.

Educrats tend to scream bloody murder over this sort of thing and claim its not fair to hold them to any sort of standard because they have to enroll everyone who walks in the door. I think that argument has some merit, but IMHO, their argument would be bolstered if school systems were more willing to boot no-account teachers and pay the ones who get good results more. To date, the unions have been foursquare against this because like all unions, their bread and butter is based on "last hired, first fired" and equal pay based on tenure and graduate educational accomplishment.

Really, this is all the kernel of the voucher debate. IMHO, we just need the right plaintiff and the right case. I believe the current SCOTUS is disposed towards finding for a plaintiff whose child is trapped in a craphole public school but can't otherwise afford private alternatives.

When that day comes, the educrats' world will be rocked they will have to regroup and figure out how to do a better job generally. they could start by paying the superstar public school teachers at the top end, and putting the ones' whose pupils aren't ready for the next grade on notice that they may want to start looking for another line of work.

[Frozen Sooner]

:rolleyes:

OK, if you get to pull your tax money so you can pay for private school, I'm filing suit the very next day to pull all my tax money from schools entirely.

[Hamhock]

:rolleyes:

OK, if you get to pull your tax money so you can pay for private school, I'm filing suit the very next day to pull all my tax money from schools entirely.


Why? You never attended a public school?

[Okla-homey]

However, the most vehement people are nearly always entrenched in the public school system (or a significant other is). The public statement is always "parents aren't qualified to teach" and their unspoken concern is the reduction in school funding because of people pulling their kids out of the public school system.

Bah! Take a look at the degree requirements for a bachelors in education around the country. It's laughable. It's all too often a bunch of touchy-feely hoo-haw and darn little math and science. Heck, at my undergrad school (granted, 25 years ago), "education" is where a lot of guys settled because it was the path of least resistance to a degree.

[Widescreen]

I do feel sorry for public school teachers. In many cases they have no support from their administration and they can get abused by their students. I'm sure they would love to be able to handpick their students - the kids who want to excel are being held back by the kids who don't want to be there but are being forced to. It seems the public schools have changed dramatically over the last 30 years in that the percentage of problem kids has gone up a lot. It's the NEA I have a REAL problem with. Any time bureaucrats are in charge, bad things result.

[sanantoniosooner]

Bah! Take a look at the degree requirements for a bachelors in education around the country. It's laughable. It's all too often a bunch of touchy-feely hoo-haw and darn little math and science. Heck, at my undergrad school, education is where a lot of guys settled because it was the path of least resistance to a degree.
depends on what level you intend to teach.

My degree plan requires a Major in Math.

If I wanted to teach at the elementary level, they I could minor in Math. That still requires quite a bit.

[Vaevictis]

At OU anyway, Math is one of the exceptions to the rule. I actually respect the math education majors.

I've seen the other degree plans though, and some of them don't have any classes that are worth a damn.

Science Ed majors (at OU), for example, don't even have to take basic calculus. You can't even begin to understand modern science at anything but the shallowest level without calculus.

[Soonrboy]

i think for the most part, homeschool parents just want to be left alone.

while i agree with you on the taxes and i could make an argument that i should get some help with the education of my kids, i know that the day the state gives me $$ is the day the state will want a say in what i'm doing.

no thanks, i'll pay for it my self.

This is true. The worst thing that private schools and homeschoolers would want is to be given government money.

[Okla-homey]

At OU anyway, Math is one of the exceptions to the rule. I actually respect the math education majors.

I've seen the other degree plans though, and some of them don't have any classes that are worth a damn.

precisely.

You can get a degree and be licensed to teach English never having read the classics of English literature nor ever demonstrated the ability to conjugate a flippin' verb.

I have almost zero respect for the academic rigor inherent in most baccalaureate education curricula...math excepted. In the vast majority of these education degree programs, all the diploma means is the holder "paid her fee and got her B."

[Soonrboy]

Bah! Take a look at the degree requirements for a bachelors in education around the country. It's laughable. It's all too often a bunch of touchy-feely hoo-haw and darn little math and science. Heck, at my undergrad school (granted, 25 years ago), "education" is where a lot of guys settled because it was the path of least resistance to a degree.

Some us didn't settle, Homey. I love my job. How does the curriculum for private schools differ from public schools, instead of the religion part? I know that there are slow students in public schools, too. I know because the public schools, by law, are required to provide special education services to private schools kids. This includes speech therapy, occupational training, and physical training (OT/PT). You can't bring the kid to the services, the services have to be taken to the child.

[Widescreen]

My wife and daughter went to Austin a couple of weeks ago as a part of a statewide homeschool lobbying effort on a couple of bills. It was an absolutely AWESOME experience for her as she actually got to go into the state representatives' offices and lobby them directly (she's 11 years old). The thing they are trying to get reversed is that, in Texas, many of the scholarships available for state schools require graduation from accredited high schools. I'm told there was a homeschooled young man recently who got a perfect score on his SATs and had to go out of state to college because he couldn't get as good of a scholarship to a state school in Texas. Note that I'd like to read the published account of that before I'd totally believe it because it sounds kind of snopesish. But the general accreditation rule IS a problem. They're simply trying to get the "accreditation" term removed from many of the laws in the state.

[Soonrboy]

I've heard that the home-school lobby is one of the more powerful lobby groups in the state/nation. How do you feel about home school kids being made to take the state-mandated tests?

[Frozen Sooner]

Why? You never attended a public school?

Kind of my point.

[Hamhock]

I've heard that the home-school lobby is one of the more powerful lobby groups in the state/nation. How do you feel about home school kids being made to take the state-mandated tests?


my only problem with it is the whole "camel's-nose-under-the-tent" thing.

we actually pay to have our kids take the test at a local private school to track their progress.

[Widescreen]

I've heard that the home-school lobby is one of the more powerful lobby groups in the state/nation. How do you feel about home school kids being made to take the state-mandated tests?
I think it's stupid. The public schools spend a significant portion of their time effectively studying for the TAKS test because they lose funding for poor performance on the test. IMO, teaching to a test is a bad way of teaching. Our kids are learning a lot more about a lot of different things because they aren't boxed in by a test. Our families are always shocked about some of the stuff our kids know that kids their age typically don't. For example, they know a ton about astronomy including the stars, planets and their moons, nebulae, etc. We take our telescope out frequently and talk about the stuff we see. Plus one of the things my wife did with our kids this school year was memorize the Book of James. The entire frickin book (5 chapters)! I'm so proud of them I could pop.

[TopDawg]

First, props to VK for the South Park reference.


precisely.

You can get a degree and be licensed to teach English never having read the classics of English literature nor ever demonstrated the ability to conjugate a flippin' verb.


One of the problems is that this used to be stuff that was covered before you got to college. A college would assume (reasonably so, it seems to me) that their incoming students already knew how to conjugate verbs, and if they didn't...well now they're faced with the same dilemma you voiced earlier. Teach verb conjucation at the risk of boring the rest of the class to tears, or leave those other students behind.

Also, back on the homeschooling topic. This has been a great conversation. I can see how it is possible...in fact, it seems to be easier and easier...to socialize homeschooled kids fairly effectively. But it also seems to me that the socialization process might be lacking in diversity. Not just racial, but all sorts. Now, I understand that a lot of large cities practically have neighborhood school systems, so maybe there's not much diversity there either, but I guess I'd just think that homeschooled children would perhaps run a greater risk of not learning how to socialize with people that are significantly different from them than public school kids. But that's just a thought.

[Widescreen]

but I guess I'd just think that homeschooled children would perhaps run a greater risk of not learning how to socialize with people that are significantly different from them than public school kids. But that's just a thought.
Maybe, but I've driven by a lot of schools while they're letting out and it seems that the kids tend to gather into groups by race anyway. Not exclusively, of course.

[85Sooner]

I do feel sorry for public school teachers. In many cases they have no support from their administration and they can get abused by their students. I'm sure they would love to be able to handpick their students - the kids who want to excel are being held back by the kids who don't want to be there but are being forced to. It seems the public schools have changed dramatically over the last 30 years in that the percentage of problem kids has gone up a lot. It's the NEA I have a REAL problem with. Any time bureaucrats are in charge, bad things result.


I am of the opinion that I do not feel sorry for the teachers ..... anymore.
Its their union, they choose to support it and do not demand the things that need to be done.

When I was in Grad school, I walked by a grad class of teachers. They were literally singing the extended versions of "farmer in the dell". I had to laugh. I wish they would allow professionals to teach. I know so many accountants , business folk, writers etc... that have worked their whole life in the real world and retired and would love to teach but due to union stipulations they are not "qualified" to teach the kids. IMO these folks should be welcomed to teach our kids.

[85Sooner]

This is true. The worst thing that private schools and homeschoolers would want is to be given THEIR OWN money BACK.



fixed

[sanantoniosooner]

I am of the opinion that I do not feel sorry for the teachers ..... anymore.
Its their union, they choose to support it and do not demand the things that need to be done.

When I was in Grad school, I walked by a grad class of teachers. They were literally singing the extended versions of "farmer in the dell". I had to laugh. I wish they would allow professionals to teach. I know so many accountants , business folk, writers etc... that have worked their whole life in the real world and retired and would love to teach but due to union stipulations they are not "qualified" to teach the kids. IMO these folks should be welcomed to teach our kids.
There are programs in Texas that will get anybody with a degree the opportunity to teach while pursuing their certification.

And to teach there are two basic areas of knowledge. Content and Pedagogical(how learners learn).

Knowing how it works is different than being able to communicate it on a level that people can understand it in an efficient manner.

[Frozen Sooner]

fixed

Can't have it both ways. If they get to spend "their" money on private school or home-school, then I shouldn't have to pay for schools at all.

[sanantoniosooner]

Fact is that if you get government funding the government will have a say in what you do and how you do it.

If you're cool with that pursue the funds.

[Frozen Sooner]

There's also a pretty obvious inequity if someone is able to homeschool their child or send their child to private school using the money they would have paid in taxes.

If you set the amount equal for every child, then I'm subsidizing someone else's child in a homeschool that may include religious indoctrination or may not teach to any kind of acceptable standard. And I'm not OK with that.

If you set the amount equal to the amount paid in property taxes that are earmarked for education, then you're removing sizeable chunks of the tax base from funding of education, which will have a disproportionate affect on poor families.

[Vaevictis]

Get certified to teach, and pay yourself?

(I mean, if you can pay the money to a private school, just set yourself up as a private school, right?)

EDIT: This is a little unclear -- it's in response to the notion of people being allowed to use their "share" of the public funds to pay for private school and how that interacts with home schooling.

[sanantoniosooner]

I don't think the issue is payroll for parents home schooling.

The issue would be Textbooks, and teaching/learning related items. Possibly even field trip type funds and the like.

[Vaevictis]

Well, each school gets a certain amount of money per student per semester.

If you enable this money to be funneled to private schools, then a home schooler could theoretically funnel it to themselves by getting certified. They won't be able to get the economies of scale a school district gets (nor the overhead), but it's something.

[85Sooner]

Can't have it both ways. If they get to spend "their" money on private school or home-school, then I shouldn't have to pay for schools at all.


I would not argue that point. I believe yours is a valid point. However, how would you compensate those who have paid all those years when they didn't have kids. That seems to be the only problem.

I am talking about having a say where the money I pay goes. If it is going to go to education for my kid (and they do not allow your point to go forth) at least we should be able to say where we want the money to go.

IE: to me it would be for a private school.

for you it may be just to fund a particular local school in order for it to be better rather than just going into the general fund.

[85Sooner]

There's also a pretty obvious inequity if someone is able to homeschool their child or send their child to private school using the money they would have paid in taxes.

If you set the amount equal for every child, then I'm subsidizing someone else's child in a homeschool that may include religious indoctrination or may not teach to any kind of acceptable standard. And I'm not OK with that.

If you set the amount equal to the amount paid in property taxes that are earmarked for education, then you're removing sizeable chunks of the tax base from funding of education, which will have a disproportionate affect on poor families.


I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.

[TopDawg]

Maybe, but I've driven by a lot of schools while they're letting out and it seems that the kids tend to gather into groups by race anyway. Not exclusively, of course.

True, perhaps, but that doesn't account for interaction during classtime and it only accounts for racial diversity.

[TopDawg]

I wish they would allow professionals to teach. I know so many accountants , business folk, writers etc... that have worked their whole life in the real world and retired and would love to teach but due to union stipulations they are not "qualified" to teach the kids. IMO these folks should be welcomed to teach our kids.

I'm all for it...IF the professionals learn how to teach. Like sas alluded to...it's not just knowing what to teach, but how to get people to learn it. I had many a frustrating class where the professor was an expert in the field, but absolutely terrible at teaching. I could've learned much more from someone who had a working knowledge of the text book and the ability to teach well.

[Frozen Sooner]

I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.

Yeah, you're right. Those kids made some crappy life choices being born to poor parents and all. They should TOTALLY be treated differently than kids who were smart enough to have wealthy parents.

By the way, speaking of poor life choices leading to families in poverty...got any idea what proportion of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills? That sure was a crappy choice by that person to get sick.

[85Sooner]

Yeah, you're right. Those kids made some crappy life choices being born to poor parents and all. They should TOTALLY be treated differently than kids who were smart enough to have wealthy parents.

By the way, speaking of poor life choices leading to families in poverty...got any idea what proportion of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills? That sure was a crappy choice by that person to get sick.

The kids didn't have a choice but the people in charge who have been subsidizing people instead of expecting them to fend for themselves have created a generation of dependents. If there is no benefits for doing "it" right then what is the incentive. That arguement can be used anywhere. Hopefully the kids of the so called poor parents will see what they need to do differently.

as far as medical bills, there are always ways to work that out. I know alot of folks who have had bankruptcies who are not poor.

The fact is the so called poor, or impoverished or however you want to say it, in this country would be considered wealthy compared to most folksin the world. Those folks don't have a choice. Americans do!

[Okla-homey]

Here's where all this is possibly going to lead. I base my supposition on our experience in Montgomery, Alabama.

In Montgomery, a lot of kids' parents pulled them out of public school after forced integration in the 60's. The result was the most influential and politically powerful segment of the population started snuffing school tax referenda because they no longer had a stake in the public schools.

Even after people began to get used to the idea of desegregation, the kids whose parents could afford to pay for private school continued to leave the publics through the 70's and 80's. The best teachers also bailed out and took jobs in the new secular private schools which popped up. It really set up a death spiral for public schools in that city.

The way things stand today, they have three public high schools in that city and students in those HS are over 85% free or reduced price lunch kids (that's educrat code for "poor.")

Those public high schools have become places where those kids are "stored" from 8-3pm. Not much learning happens there. And the sad part is, no one who matters politically really cares. Meanwhile, the Alabama Education Association dutifully and myopically holds the line on teacher certification requirements and public school teacher job security. That said, they have one of the lowest property tax rates in America and the public schools continue to crumble, due also to the fact most of the money there is goes to public school teacher salaries and teacher retirement.

I think it could happen here too if the teacher unions don't get with the program.

My kid, along with just about every other kid with college aspirations in that city went to one of the four private schools in that city, each with a campus that includes elementary, middle and high school with a total enrollment of about 2000 kids.

http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/15455/2005954177804703129_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005954177804703129)

[sanantoniosooner]

I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.
Wow.

Can't say I agree with the blanket statement.

[Soonrboy]

I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.

wow...just amazing.

[TopDawg]

I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.

Have you seen Pursuit of Happyness?

[Widescreen]

Have you seen Pursuit of Happyness?
Pfft. You must've gone to public schools. It's "happiness".


;)

[NYSooner1355]

85, the kids you mentioned would probably use "Yes sir" and "yes maam" either way since that's something parents insist on.

Parental involvement is key in either system.

BINGO!

[NYSooner1355]

Bah! Take a look at the degree requirements for a bachelors in education around the country. It's laughable. It's all too often a bunch of touchy-feely hoo-haw and darn little math and science. Heck, at my undergrad school (granted, 25 years ago), "education" is where a lot of guys settled because it was the path of least resistance to a degree.

there are a lot of degrees with "touchy-feely hoo-haw and darn little math and science" - not just in the education department (and for full disclosure, I'm not a certified teacher and my undergrad was in health sciences)

[NYSooner1355]

This is true. The worst thing that private schools and homeschoolers would want is to be given government money.

ummm...private schools do receive government money (many do at least) - that is why their curriculums are in line with the public schools - they have to meet certain mandates the states and feds hand down to keep receiving money - the big difference between public and private schools is the ability to pick and choose which students attend thereby creating a higher caliber class of students in the private schools...

[NYSooner1355]

I've heard that the home-school lobby is one of the more powerful lobby groups in the state/nation. How do you feel about home school kids being made to take the state-mandated tests?

if you are referring to my post - I said I believe they are trying to legally do so...not that they have actually done so - but I do think it is obvious where the movement is going to go since if you go to the OK SDE website there is a whole section dedicated to home schools and how to follow the OK PASS standards...

[NYSooner1355]

I am of the opinion that I do not feel sorry for the teachers ..... anymore.
Its their union, they choose to support it and do not demand the things that need to be done.

When I was in Grad school, I walked by a grad class of teachers. They were literally singing the extended versions of "farmer in the dell". I had to laugh. I wish they would allow professionals to teach. I know so many accountants , business folk, writers etc... that have worked their whole life in the real world and retired and would love to teach but due to union stipulations they are not "qualified" to teach the kids. IMO these folks should be welcomed to teach our kids.

I'm all for this idea - but it is this administration and the bipartisan bullshat that created NCLB that keeps individuals like these out of classrooms too - not solely unions - to teach in public school you have to be "highly qualified" in your subject area according to NCLB and that means holding a M.Ed in that specialty...

[NYSooner1355]

I am sick of hearing about POOOOOOOOOOR families. I have seen em. most wear nike's have 2 or 3 tv's, 1 0r 2 video game players etc....... The only thing that makes them poor is their poor choices, poor living lifestyles and poor use of resouorces. all personal decisions on their part.

There is no excuse to be poor in the United States. Simply none.

while I do believe choices primarily affect your situation - you're making very broad generalizations...you might need to get out a bit and see how the other side lives...

[85Sooner]

while I do believe choices primarily affect your situation - you're making very broad generalizations...you might need to get out a bit and see how the other side lives...


I have lived, worked with and employed em. They don't want to be responsible for themselves. Life has been made too easy without the effort and dedication. Keep in mind. I am not saying that it is easy to earn 100K a year but anyone making under 25 K a year better be doing something to change their situation. Most successful folks I know just work. and then they work and then they work. Not a hard solution but one that takes effort and some personal responsibility. Of course personal responsibility has been going out with the bathwater as well.

[Okla-homey]

I have lived, worked with and employed em. They don't want to be responsible for themselves. Life has been made too easy without the effort and dedication. Keep in mind. I am not saying that it is easy to earn 100K a year but anyone making under 25 K a year better be doing something to change their situation. Most successful folks I know just work. and then they work and then they work. Not a hard solution but one that takes effort and some personal responsibility. Of course personal responsibility has been going out with the bathwater as well.

I agree. I also believe far too many folks choose to wallow in the "victim" mudhole...because it's easier, safer, and avoids facing up to the fact they might just be a no-account thug/thugette who made a lot of bad personal choices.

I've personally known far too many folks, representing a range of ethnicities, who worked themselves out of poverty through sheer persistance and personal courage.

That said, people can change if they have someone to show them the way and who will lead by example.

[sanantoniosooner]

Opportunity is key and assuming someone has had the opportunity is pretty arrogant.

My wife is in charge of a ministry that goes downtown weekly to feed homeless people. We do it about 2 a month ourselves.

When you see a 12 year old girl on the streets, you tell me how many opportunities she's had to better herself. Do people milk the system. You bet they do. But it's a terrible injustice to lump all in with those.

We mostly feed at the mens' Salvation Army center. We've found that there is a lot of repetitive feeding in some of the worst places, and even though they feed at the SA, they feed at 5 PM and a lot of the guys that actually are working and trying to improve their situation miss the meal. We catch most of those guys and they are the most appreciative bunch I've ever handed a plate to.

[Okla-homey]

Opportunity is key and assuming someone has had the opportunity is pretty arrogant.

My wife is in charge of a ministry that goes downtown weekly to feed homeless people. We do it about 2 a month ourselves.

When you see a 12 year old girl on the streets, you tell me how many opportunities she's had to better herself. Do people milk the system. You bet they do. But it's a terrible injustice to lump all in with those.

We mostly feed at the mens' Salvation Army center. We've found that there is a lot of repetitive feeding in some of the worst places, and even though they feed at the SA, they feed at 5 PM and a lot of the guys that actually are working and trying to improve their situation miss the meal. We catch most of those guys and they are the most appreciative bunch I've ever handed a plate to.

I volunteer the third Saturday of each month all day at Tulsa's John 3:16 homeless mission. Have done almost as long as I've lived in Tulsa. I don't talk about it much because the reason I do it is personal. Nevertheless, I've come to understand there are basically three types of street people. 1) Tough breaks put them in a bad spot 2) mental issues 3) drug &/or alcohol abuse has shelled their brain.

These people deserve compassion and help because they are human beings and God loves them too.

That said, I am of the opinion that unless a person is in one of the latter two categories, or the dependent child of someone in one of the latter two categories, there is a way off the street if they are willing to work hard.

[sanantoniosooner]

I volunteer the third Saturday of each month all day at Tulsa's John 3:16 homeless mission. Have done almost as long as I've lived in Tulsa. I don't talk about it much because the reason I do it is personal. Nevertheless, I've come to understand there are basically three types of street people. 1) Tough breaks put them in a bad spot 2) mental issues 3) drug &/or alcohol abuse has shelled their brain.

These people deserve compassion and help because they are human beings and God loves them too.

That said, I am of the opinion that unless a person is either in one of the latter two categories, or the child of someone in one of the latter two categories, there is a way off the street if they are willing to work hard.
I agree, but it often gets worse before it gets better.

And I concur on your assessment of why people are on the street. I've seen whole families living out of a car. Bad luck can be a bear.

[Okla-homey]

I agree, but it often gets worse before it gets better.

And I concur on your assessment of why people are on the street. I've seen whole families living out of a car. Bad luck and be a bear.

I am continually astounded at the number of people who are just one or two missed paychecks away from living in their cars.

[Widescreen]

I am continually astounded at the number of people who are just one or two missed paychecks away from living in their cars.
Pfft. How poor could they be if they've got a car to live in? Other countries' poor people don't even have a car. ;)

[TopDawg]

Has ANYBODY here seen Pursuit of Happyness?! ;)

And does anybody have any thoughts on my theory of limited diversity among the socialization of homeschooled kids? Is it accurate? Possible? Dead wrong? I'm curious to know how those situations works.

[sanantoniosooner]

Has ANYBODY here seen Pursuit of Happyness?! ;)

And does anybody have any thoughts on my theory of limited diversity among the socialization of homeschooled kids? Is it accurate? Possible? Dead wrong? I'm curious to know how those situations works.
I would suggest that limited diversity again rests with the parents. Typically people hang out with like people unless they have a reason to do otherwise. If exposing a kid to diversity is a goal of the parents, then I think the kid will see plenty. My concern is as much about diversity of life experience as diversity of culture. While I am and will continue to be a major influence on my children, I don't want them to be a carbon copy of myself. The more people they meet, and they can learn from, the more power they have to determine the kind of person they will be.

My son is in the minority as a redheaded little white kid here in San Antonio. As far as I can tell, color of skin is like hair color or eye color as far as he is concerned.

And no, I haven't seen that movie yet. I plan to though.

[Frozen Sooner]

Sure, absolutely there's people who are poor through their own bad choices. However, I have yet to encounter a single child who was poor because of their own choices-and setting up a system that by default uses tax money to give unequal educations to people in the same district based on a parent's ability to pay is a pretty good way to ensure that poor families stay poor.

[TopDawg]

I would suggest that limited diversity again rests with the parents.

Yeah, true. I just think that would be the hardest benefit to replicate from most public school experiences. And although I think the racial diversity is important, I'm thinking more along the lines of cultural, religious, socio-economic, etc.


And no, I haven't seen that movie yet. I plan to though.

It's great. I wasn't too excited to see it, but I ended up loving it.

[Soonrboy]

by biggest concern, that I stated earlier, is that home-schooled kids who are involved in the "social" opportunites offered by the associations, seem to be very homogenous. It definitely is not represented by what will be experienced in college and in the work place.

opportunities don't always knock on everyone's door the same way.

[Widescreen]

by biggest concern, that I stated earlier, is that home-schooled kids who are involved in the "social" opportunites offered by the associations, seem to be very homogenous. It definitely is not represented by what will be experienced in college and in the work place.
If your kids aren't homeschooled, there's nothing for you to be concerned about.

As for the whole "life experience" thing, I'd much rather have my children (while they're young) experience certain things from a distance so that we can discuss it rather than being personally immersed in the problem and having to clean up a mess.

[sanantoniosooner]

If your kids aren't homeschooled, there's nothing for you to be concerned about.

As for the whole "life experience" thing, I'd much rather have my children (while they're young) experience certain things from a distance so that we can discuss it rather than being personally immersed in the problem and having to clean up a mess.
You can be so distant that it's not even a topic that comes up.

Being "immersed" in the problem isn't the only other option.

Kids witness things all the time that they aren't immersed in. I saw all kinds of cliques, activities, lifestyles, cultures, and attitudes without being "immersed".

I would see immersion as partaking in an activity, not just observing it.

AND BTW...

By diversity of experience, I'm talking more about input from various authority figures more than peers.

[Soonrboy]

If your kids aren't homeschooled, there's nothing for you to be concerned about.

As for the whole "life experience" thing, I'd much rather have my children (while they're young) experience certain things from a distance so that we can discuss it rather than being personally immersed in the problem and having to clean up a mess.

Oh, but I do have concerns. That's like me saying that you don't have kids in public schools, so you don't need to worry about them.

I'm an educator. Like I've said many times before, I know there are people who do home-schooling well, but there are many who do not, that is where my concern is...these are our future leaders.

[Okla-homey]

Oh, but I do have concerns. That's like me saying that you don't have kids in public schools, so you don't need to worry about them.

I'm an educator. Like I've said many times before, I know there are people who do home-schooling well, but there are many who do not, that is where my concern is...these are our future leaders.

If traditional schools had a monopoly on turning out well educated kids, I'd be more inclined to see it your way. Unfortunately, quite a large number of parents are perfectly capable of doing a great job with educating their children, while traditional schools certainly crank out their share of ignoramuses.

I just think its disengenious to indict home education on grounds and standards that public education often fails to meet.

For me at least, the debate should be about enabling what is best for families and the children in them. Public education stopped being the best answer in all cases quite some time ago.

[Soonrboy]

[QUOTE=Okla-homey]If traditional schools had a monopoly on turning out well educated kids, I'd be more inclined to see it your way. Unfortunately, quite a large number of parents are perfectly capable of doing a great job with educating their children, while traditional schools certainly crank out their share of ignoramuses.
QUOTE]

Yet, they also produce a lot of good. Especially when parents are involved.
I've never ever dismissed the role of the parent.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

...and you're already paying for a socialist indoctrination. It's almost like homeschooling is realizing your tax money is being thrown away. fixed, from post #2

[Widescreen]

You can be so distant that it's not even a topic that comes up.
Then the parent isn't doing his/her job.


Being "immersed" in the problem isn't the only other option.

Kids witness things all the time that they aren't immersed in. I saw all kinds of cliques, activities, lifestyles, cultures, and attitudes without being "immersed".

I would see immersion as partaking in an activity, not just observing it.
Which is why I said I'd rather they become educated about an issue before they are immersed in it. Public schools aren't the only places where cliques, other cultures and lifestyles can be observed.


AND BTW...

By diversity of experience, I'm talking more about input from various authority figures more than peers.
My perspective is quite different than your on this point.

[Widescreen]

Saw this on the news in Dallas.

http://video.nbc5i.com/player/?id=101375

Kind of a cool opportunity for the kids.

[sanantoniosooner]

Widescreen, I'm not sure you get some of my points. I don't need a math teacher to give my kid life direction. But being taught by a number of people concerning any particular skillset provides a wider base for knowledge. In my own experience I would say that my uncle taught me 80% of what I know about construction. But that 20% I got elsewhere is what sets me apart from him and others. And it wasn't that his ways were wrong. I just learned other techniques that were at times more efficient or even outside of his experience.

and the video is nice, but that's still one of my beefs. People traveling from New York and Florida to get their kids to a prom. That's a heavy duty commitment right there and who's to say I want my kid that far from home for an event like that.

[Widescreen]

and the video is nice, but that's still one of my beefs. People traveling from New York and Florida to get their kids to a prom. That's a heavy duty commitment right there and who's to say I want my kid that far from home for an event like that.
How on earth can that event be considered a negative? Seems like you're reaching. You realize nearly all of the 800 kids that were there were from the DFW area, right?

Oh, and because of some of the suggestions in this thread, my wife and I have decided to take one day a week and socialize our kids the way they would in the public schools:

1. Steal their lunch money
2. Tell them they're not my friend anymore
3. Start unfounded rumors about them
4. Tell them to meet me at the flag pole at 3:00 for an *** kicking
5. Pick them last in kickball
6. Make fun of their clothes
7. Call them a variety of colorful names

I'm sure we'll think of others.

;)

[Octavian]

That could pretty much be said of most public education nowadays.

Look, here's the thing. I've said this before and I mean it. If you beleive in natural selection (as I do, although I haven't bought into the full monty on Darwinian evolution) then you gotta accept that some kids are just hopeless dumarses and should be side tracked from the classroom into making shoes or stuffing envelopes or something.

All this special ed stuff is a waste of resources. Faced with finite resources, we oughtta be focusing on the middle and right end of the intelligence bell curve. Instead, we're trying a "one size fits all" approach in public education which is holding our brightest kids back, annoying the kids in the middle, while merely "storing" the 'tards and "dull normals" at government expense.

There. I said it. I feel better now.


easily the worst post I've ever seen you make.

[Octavian]

As far as the no kiddin' profoundly mentally handicapped kids goes...that's a toughy because the courts have held those kids have a right to the same free public education all the other kids get.
Unfortunately, that just means some teacher who might better be employed helping the other 97% must be employed to keep the drool wiped up. It's a public policy tragedy IMHO.


nevermind.



this one is worse.

[yermom]

so what should the r-tards be doing in school?

should they pass just because?

i'd agree that the one size fits all approach is for ****

if it takes someone 15 years to get through school, so be it, if it takes 9, that should be fine too

i don't think a diploma means anything if you just get one for showing up for 12 years

[Octavian]

TYou must ask the threshold question, why test home educated kids in the first place? Is it so they can be forced back into the government school if the home educator is not performing up to some arbitrary standard established by the commissars of the state department of education...


so you're begging for public school teachers to be held accountable by the state....but not Ned and Maud Flanders?


sweet.

[Octavian]

so what should the r-tards be doing in school?

should they pass just because?

i'd agree that the one size fits all approach is for ****

if it takes someone 15 years to get through school, so be it, if it takes 9, that should be fine too

i don't think a diploma means anything if you just get one for showing up for 12 years


nah, they should be discarded at birth.


It's natural selection and all....wouldn't wanna burden the good Christian taxpayers

[yermom]

or before birth ;)

[Okla-homey]

so you're begging for public school teachers to be held accountable by the state....but not Ned and Maud Flanders?


sweet.

yes, because government schools are being funded by the government to provide a service. Therefore, the state has a vested equitable interest in requiring each government school to to meet certain objective standards in order for it to be allowed to keep its doors open with its current personnel.

Contrast Ned and Maud Flanders you mention. They receive nary a dime of government funds, therefore, in truth, the state lacks any equitable claim to having the right to ensure they meet any objective standards.

In short, its a matter of "rendering unto Caesar." IOW, if Caesar's coin is spent, Caesar has a right to ensure it's spent wisely.

[Okla-homey]

nah, they should be discarded at birth.


It's natural selection and all....wouldn't wanna burden the good Christian taxpayers

Not discarded at birth, but sheesh. If the most a kid can ever be expected to be able to do after he gets to school on the short bus is sit upright and color, or play with blocks...then perhaps that can be supervised by someone in other than a traditional public school setting at much lower cost to the taxpayer.

[Hamhock]

And does anybody have any thoughts on my theory of limited diversity among the socialization of home schooled kids? Is it accurate? Possible? Dead wrong? I'm curious to know how those situations works.

I can't believe this thing is still alive.

Can you put your concerns into a specific thought or question? I"m not sure what my kids are missing out on, besides learning to form cliques, eloquent usage of the N word and creative ways to make fun of people who are different than they.

I'm not at all concerned that my kids are missing out on the bastion of social harmony that is the public school.

I also find it odd that so many people can state that they know "many" people who "don't do home school well". I probably know more home school families than most and have yet to come across a single incident of someone taking advantage of the system. I'd like to hear specifics of personal experience with home schoolers not doing it "right".

[sanantoniosooner]

How on earth can that event be considered a negative? Seems like you're reaching. You realize nearly all of the 800 kids that were there were from the DFW area, right?

Oh, and because of some of the suggestions in this thread, my wife and I have decided to take one day a week and socialize our kids the way they would in the public schools:

1. Steal their lunch money
2. Tell them they're not my friend anymore
3. Start unfounded rumors about them
4. Tell them to meet me at the flag pole at 3:00 for an *** kicking
5. Pick them last in kickball
6. Make fun of their clothes
7. Call them a variety of colorful names

I'm sure we'll think of others.

;)
You should have explained you got pummeled growing up.

Makes sense now.;)

[Widescreen]

You should have explained you got pummeled growing up.

Makes sense now.;)
I guess I thought that was self-evident. Hence the ticks and panic attacks.