Outstanding entrepeneurial opportunity?

[Okla-homey]

The new energy economy is already emerging globally, but, the US is outsourcing many of these opportunities to other countries. For example, the US currently imports 60–70 percent of the electricity producing wind turbines operating in the country.

My question is this, with all the wind we have in Oklahoma, and all the hardworking and smart hillbillies we got, why can't Oklahomans become the world leader in designing and building wind turbines -- and put a slew of them up out in western Oklahoma and sell the juice they make?

We were once the world's "Oil Captal", I think we should now become the "World's Wind bag." ;)

[olevetonahill]

Homey there a lot of "Wind Farms " out around Weatherford .

[Okla-homey]

Homey there a lot of "Wind Farms " out around Weatherford .

yep, and we could build a bunch more. We also need to be building the turbines in Oklahoma, not buying them from China or some place.

[OUinFLA]

yep, and we could build a bunch more. We also need to be building the turbines in Oklahoma, not buying them from China or some place.


When you find Okies willing to work for $3 a day, you will probably have a winner there.

[OklahomaTuba]

It might cause global fanning.

[olevetonahill]

When you find Okies willing to work for $3 a day, you will probably have a winner there.
I was wondering if we could get enough Messicans to come north and work at that and Keep the chicken plants and rock yards workin .

[yermom]

i'm pretty sure they are already running the chicken plants

[OUDoc]

It might cause global fanning.
It might make the Earth spin faster, one way or the other, then a Superman-type time travel might occur. Homey wants us responsible for that?

[Okla-homey]

i'm pretty sure they are already running the chicken plants

My baby bro makes regular runs to Garden City, KS to check on his branch office and customers. Excel beef is there. If you can't speak espanol, you can't work there anymore. It's not the rule, but it's the practical effect of virtually everyone working on the line in meatpacking today is messican. Ditto poultry processors. Ditto fruit and veg processors. In short, you can be assured everything you eat has been touched by a messican.

[olevetonahill]

i'm pretty sure they are already running the chicken plants
Why i said KEEP em runing :D

[jeremy885]

I read in the Financial Times yesterday that we still produce over 90% of the small wind turbines used in the US. All the news isn't bad.

[olevetonahill]

My baby bro makes regular runs to Garden City, KS to check on his branch office and customers. Excel beef is there. If you can't speak espanol, you can't work there anymore. It's not the rule, but it's the practical effect of virtually everyone working on the line in meatpacking today is messican. Ditto poultry processors. Ditto fruit and veg processors. In short, you can be assured everything you eat has been touched by a messican.
HMMMM Messican Food Yumm

[Okla-homey]

It might make the Earth spin faster, one way or the other, then a Superman-type time travel might occur. Homey wants us responsible for that?

they are not propellers, they are merely ginormous pinwheels that crank out a lot of juice. :D

Figures I've seen indicate a single one of these honkers on a 10mph sustained wind day can provide the power to meet the needs of around a thousand residential customers. I don't care who you are, that's pretty cool.

Downside? They are big, look odd, and kill a lot of birds who fly thru the turbine arc at night and get konked unconscious. Apparently, the grass grows very green around these things because of the bird carcasses fertilizing the soil.:O

[mdklatt]

My question is this, with all the wind we have in Oklahoma, and all the hardworking and smart hillbillies we got, why can't Oklahomans become the world leader in designing and building wind turbines -- and put a slew of them up out in western Oklahoma and sell the juice they make?

An Oklahoma/OU delegation met with Vestas a couple of years ago to pitch them the idea of locating a facility in Oklahoma. I'm not sure what the outcome was, but I don't think there will be a Vestas plant here any time soon.

A lot of the fiberglass blades are made in Gainesville, TX. You can see them in the factory yard on the west side of I-35.

[Okla-homey]

I read in the Financial Times yesterday that we still produce over 90% of the small wind turbines used in the US. All the news isn't bad.

I agree, I just want Okies to build the big muthas. We have an area in western Oklahoma (around Weatherford as Olevet said) that has some of the most sustained winds on the planet. I say we harness them and make Okies rich in the process.

[royalfan5]

The new energy economy is already emerging globally, but, the US is outsourcing many of these opportunities to other countries. For example, the US currently imports 60–70 percent of the electricity producing wind turbines operating in the country.

My question is this, with all the wind we have in Oklahoma, and all the hardworking and smart hillbillies we got, why can't Oklahomans become the world leader in designing and building wind turbines -- and put a slew of them up out in western Oklahoma and sell the juice they make?

We were once the world's "Oil Captal", I think we should now become the "World's Wind bag." ;)
You have to remember people are often skeptical about dumping money into something that exists because the market is heavily subsidized, and that the gov't has let that subsidy slip a couple of times. The town next to my hometown had a large windmill plant going in, built by a Dutch company and then the gov't let the tax credit lapse and it no longer made financial sense. In addition the tooling for windmills is quite expensive, and even though GE is sold of turbines for the next couple of years, there isn't enough of a market to justify the capital being spent to really widen the market. Plus wind is inconsistent, and that isn't favorable to investment. Nukes are a far better option than trying to really ramp up wind production.

[Okla-homey]

An Oklahoma/OU delegation met with Vestas a couple of years ago to pitch them the idea of locating a facility in Oklahoma. I'm not sure what the outcome was, but I don't think there will be a Vestas plant here any time soon.

A lot of the fiberglass blades are made in Gainesville, TX. You can see them in the factory yard on the west side of I-35.

I should think there might even be federal start-up money available for this sort of thing since "green" is so en vogue right now.

[royalfan5]

My baby bro makes regular runs to Garden City, KS to check on his branch office and customers. Excel beef is there. If you can't speak espanol, you can't work there anymore. It's not the rule, but it's the practical effect of virtually everyone working on the line in meatpacking today is messican. Ditto poultry processors. Ditto fruit and veg processors. In short, you can be assured everything you eat has been touched by a messican.
But food is much cheaper on a percentage basis than it used to be. So it's really not a bad thing.

[mdklatt]

yep, and we could build a bunch more. We also need to be building the turbines in Oklahoma, not buying them from China or some place.

Most of them are built in Europe, primarly Denmark and Germany. You know, places where they have a lot of "environmental whackos".

[mdklatt]

I read in the Financial Times yesterday that we still produce over 90% of the small wind turbines used in the US. All the news isn't bad.

Most of that is from Norman's own Bergey Wind Power.

[mdklatt]

Plus wind is inconsistent, and that isn't favorable to investment.

Wow, this is just all kinds of wrong.

[Okla-homey]

You have to remember people are often skeptical about dumping money into something that exists because the market is heavily subsidized, and that the gov't has let that subsidy slip a couple of times. The town next to my hometown had a large windmill plant going in, built by a Dutch company and then the gov't let the tax credit lapse and it no longer made financial sense. In addition the tooling for windmills is quite expensive, and even though GE is sold of turbines for the next couple of years, there isn't enough of a market to justify the capital being spent to really widen the market. Plus wind is inconsistent, and that isn't favorable to investment. Nukes are a far better option than trying to really ramp up wind production.

Good points all, but the guys who were rooting around on Ida Glenn's farm south of Tulsa were speculators too.

The whole country is on a vast electrical grid. If private capital could build a big honkin' turbine complex in W. Oklahoma, I bet it could sell all the power -- as long as PSO and OG&E lobbyists didn't torpedo it in the legislature and get some law passed making it financially unfeasible.

[Okla-homey]

But food is much cheaper on a percentage basis than it used to be. So it's really not a bad thing.

I'm not saying it bad. i'm just saying.

But, I would add, this is also the reason nothing substantive will ever get done to seal our borders.

[mdklatt]

I should think there might even be federal start-up money available for this sort of thing since "green" is so en vogue right now.

I was watching Nova last night, and it was all about solar power. Germany has made a committment to renewable energy, with a goal of having 20% of their energy met be renewables by 2020. One of the ways they're doing this is by buying solar power (presumably wind power, as well) at a guaranteed cost for a long enough period to encourage investment. As a result, Germany has become a leader in solar power manufacturing.

There are federal tax subsidies for individuals who want to start using their own renewable energy. There are some bills floating around the OK legislature as well. One of them involves tax credits, and there may be an RPS bill too.

[mdklatt]

The whole country is on a vast electrical grid.

There are lots of political/beauacratic barriers to crossing grid boundaries. We can't sell Oklahoma wind power to Texas, for example.



If private capital could build a big honkin' turbine complex in W. Oklahoma, I bet it could sell all the power -- as long as PSO and OG&E lobbyists didn't torpedo it in the legislature and get some law passed making it financially unfeasible.

There are five (six?) big honkin' wind farms in W. Oklahoma, and almost all the power is sold to PSO, OG&E, and WFEC. The main drawback to building more large wind farms is the transmission infrastructure, particularly in the Panhandle. The Panhandle has by far the best wind resource, but nowhere to put all the electricity.

[OUDoc]

Good points all, but the guys who were rooting around on Ida Glenn's farm south of Tulsa were speculators too.

The whole country is on a vast electrical grid. If private capital could build a big honkin' turbine complex in W. Oklahoma, I bet it could sell all the power -- as long as PSO and OG&E lobbyists didn't torpedo it in the legislature and get some law passed making it financially unfeasible.
I'm in. How much do you need?:texan:

[Okla-homey]

I'm in. How much do you need?:texan:

I figure if we all ponied up 100K we could get rolling. We could get Phil to draft up the articles of incorporation and we could name him general counsel. We'd need a name for the corp, the corporate purpose would be easy. We'd need to decide how many shares we'd issue and their value. We prolly want to make this a publicly traded corp. because that will draw the venture capitalists in. We prolly ought to buy some insurance too in case one of our turbines falls over and kills some grazing cattle while we're still relatively undercapitalized.

At the first meeting, we'd elect a board of directors. I want our new doctor of philosophy on there because he's smart and stuff. Also, we need some guys who understand the energy industry, but not too much oil field trash -- because this is different.

In the meantime, we also need to get to work on the land leases for the turbine farms out in the panhandle. We also need to start talking to some turbine builders to see if we can get them to come to work for us at the manufacturing plant we'll build on the old Air Force base at Burns Flat. We'll have to pay them well because, it's Burns Flat for crying out loud. Alternatively, Ardmore would probably financially fellate us if we decided to build the plant at that old closed Ardmore AFB location.

[mdklatt]

I figure if we all ponied up 100K we could get rolling.

That will buy you all of 10% of a single 1 MW turbine.

[mdklatt]

In the meantime, we also need to get to work on the land leases for the turbine farms out in the panhandle.

You're gonna need some more money for transmission lines, too. The number that sticks in my head is $2M/mile, but that could wrong.

Also, all the land you'd be interested in has probably already been locked up by developers.

[Okla-homey]

I said we'd need venture capitalists with deep pockets. You gotta think big. What if Ray Kroc had listened when people told him no one would buy hamburgers from a joint built just for the purpose of selling cheap hamburgers?;)

[Petro-Sooner]

Buy more oil people. :texan: Wind is a fad. It will all go away soon.

[mdklatt]

I said we'd need venture capitalists with deep pockets. You gotta think big. What if Ray Kroc had listened when people told him no one would buy hamburgers from a joint built just for the purpose of selling cheap hamburgers?;)

I'm just saying, 100K ain't gonna get you very far. You're gonna be up against the likes of Goldman Sachs.

[olevetonahill]

I'm just saying, 100K ain't gonna get you very far. You're gonna be up against the likes of Goldman Sachs.
Why you wanta **** on Homeys Parade ?:confused: :D

[royalfan5]

I said we'd need venture capitalists with deep pockets. You gotta think big. What if Ray Kroc had listened when people told him no one would buy hamburgers from a joint built just for the purpose of selling cheap hamburgers?;)
Ray Kroc bought an already established McDonald's business. The McDonald's were already selling plenty of hamburger's when he bought in. He also put up very little of his own money in gaining the rights to sell the McDonald's concept to other businessmen.

[skycat]

You're gonna need some more money for transmission lines, too. The number that sticks in my head is $2M/mile, but that could wrong.

Also, all the land you'd be interested in has probably already been locked up by developers.

Not only transmission lines, but money for the capacitor banks to keep the grid stable.

[mdklatt]

Not only transmission lines, but money for the capacitor banks to keep the grid stable.

I assume that's included in the transmission line cost, but maybe not.

[Okla-homey]

I'm just saying, 100K ain't gonna get you very far. You're gonna be up against the likes of Goldman Sachs.

If you read carefully, you would see i was responding to Doc's enquiry on how much we need from him. I said 100K each;)

[skycat]

I assume that's included in the transmission line cost, but maybe not.

Maybe. I've got no idea how much that stuff costs. It's just a touch bigger than the microcontrollers that I work on.:cool:

I do think you'd need better switching capability for generation highly dependant on wind turbines though.

[mdklatt]

If you read carefully, you would see i was responding to Doc's enquiry on how much we need from him. I said 100K each;)

Aha, got it.

Something I saw on Nova got me thinking. There's a company that installed a bunch of solar panels on the roof of a Whole Foods market, and Whole Foods agreed to pay a fixed price for the generated electricity for the life of the contract. The developer knows how much power the panels are going to generate over the long term, and knows all the fixed costs, so there is almost no risk. That is a brilliant plan.

Wind power works the same way. The developers can offer the power to utilities at a fixed cost because the wind in Oklahoma isn't effected by political events around the world. Even better, as the cost of fossil fuels continues to rise, wind power will soon be cheaper (it already is in some cases). Even better, the money we pay for wind power doesn't fund terrorism in the Middle East. Even better still, wind power is clean and renewable.

[mdklatt]

Maybe. I've got no idea how much that stuff costs. It's just a touch bigger than the microcontrollers that I work on.:cool:

I do think you'd need better switching capability for generation highly dependant on wind turbines though.

I think a lot of that stuff is built into the turbines themselves so they don't produce spikes.

[yermom]

Aha, got it.

Something I saw on Nova got me thinking. There's a company that installed a bunch of solar panels on the roof of a Whole Foods market, and Whole Foods agreed to pay a fixed price for the generated electricity for the life of the contract. The developer knows how much power the panels are going to generate over the long term, and knows all the fixed costs, so there is almost no risk. That is a brilliant plan.

Wind power works the same way. The developers can offer the power to utilities at a fixed cost because the wind in Oklahoma isn't effected by political events around the world. Even better, as the cost of fossil fuels continues to rise, wind power will soon be cheaper (it already is in some cases). Even better, the money we pay for wind power doesn't fund terrorism in the Middle East. Even better still, wind power is clean and renewable.

and you can feed a family of hillbillies living under the things

[Viking Kitten]

Aha, got it.

Something I saw on Nova got me thinking. There's a company that installed a bunch of solar panels on the roof of a Whole Foods market, and Whole Foods agreed to pay a fixed price for the generated electricity for the life of the contract. The developer knows how much power the panels are going to generate over the long term, and knows all the fixed costs, so there is almost no risk. That is a brilliant plan.

Wind power works the same way. The developers can offer the power to utilities at a fixed cost because the wind in Oklahoma isn't effected by political events around the world. Even better, as the cost of fossil fuels continues to rise, wind power will soon be cheaper (it already is in some cases). Even better, the money we pay for wind power doesn't fund terrorism in the Middle East. Even better still, wind power is clean and renewable.

I thought the Whole Foods plan was a good one too, and it seems like it would be the most feasible here in the U.S. because it keeps government involvement to a minimum. The German system bothered me because it seems like city dwellers get screwed by paying some of the highest prices in the world for energy, with no way of getting any of it back.

[mdklatt]

The German system bothered me because it seems like city dwellers get screwed by paying some of the highest prices in the world for energy, with no way of getting any of it back.

The German system probably wouldn't work here for political and idealogolical reasons, but the German city dwellers are definitely getting something out of it. As far as things look right now, fossil fuel prices are only going to rise. But solar and wind costs are fixed at installation; and as the technology improves and production increases, those costs will actually go down. Plus, the German economy is getting a shot in the arm from the developing solar power industry (they also have significant wind power industry). Solar/wind produces no pollution, which is a tangible benefit. There is also the intangible benefit of not funding terrorists in the Middle East so that they can one day bomb the Berlin subway.

[royalfan5]

The German system probably wouldn't work here for political and idealogolical reasons, but the German city dwellers are definitely getting something out of it. As far as things look right now, fossil fuel prices are only going to rise. But solar and wind costs are fixed at installation; and as the technology improves and production increases, those costs will actually go down. Plus, the German economy is getting a shot in the arm from the developing solar power industry (they also have significant wind power industry). Solar/wind produces no pollution, which is a tangible benefit. There is also the intangible benefit of not funding terrorists in the Middle East so that they can one day bomb the Berlin subway.
Germany would be funding Russia far more than the Middle East since that's where most of their fossil fuels come from.

[mdklatt]

Germany would be funding Russia far more than the Middle East since that's where most of their fossil fuels come from.

They'd be even less happy with that! :D

[skycat]

I think a lot of that stuff is built into the turbines themselves so they don't produce spikes.

It's not just spikes that you need to worry about though. If the wind speed drifts, I don't know, 50%-75% over the day, you would need to regulate the impedance on the grid. They have to do it now because of variances in consumption over the course of a day, but now you're adding another source of inconsistency into the system.

[OUDoc]

I've got an L-shaped corner house with the back of the garage roof facing south. I've wondered how many solar panels I could put on it and whether it would really help me all that much (also how cost effective would it be). Any websites that help figure that out?

[mdklatt]

Any websites that help figure that out?

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/

The DOE and NREL web sites should have info, too.

[OUDoc]

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/

The DOE and NREL web sites should have info, too.
Cool. Thanks. I tried OG&E's website recently. Not helpful.

[mdklatt]

Cool. Thanks. I tried OG&E's website recently. Not helpful.

They're probably not big fans of solar power. :D

When you install your own solar (or wind) it has to be tied-in to OG&E's line, which means that when you're producing surplus energy you'll effectively be selling power back to them.

[skycat]

They're probably not big fans of solar power. :D

When you install your own solar (or wind) it has to be tied-in to OG&E's line, which means that when you're producing surplus energy you'll effectively be selling power back to them.

Yup. And for reasons related to grid stability, it's not necessarily a good thing for them, regardless of the price that they have to pay for your excess power.

[OUDoc]

It would only cost ~$133,000 and all of my available roof space to completely convert from OG&E to solar power.

[mdklatt]

It would only cost ~$133,000 and all of my available roof space to completely convert from OG&E to solar power.

Does that include the cost of batteries and a generator for when the sun doesn't shine?

[OUDoc]

Does that include the cost of batteries and a generator for when the sun doesn't shine?
It should.

[mdklatt]

It should.

Well, make sure you read the fine print. :D

[skycat]

It should.

I think you might be finding out why every home isn't covered in solar cells.

[mdklatt]

You can get a home-sized wind turbine for a helluva lot less than $133,000 (batteries and generator not included).